People who wish to be rezed will have it done by Williamson at no cost to them. Of course someone will have to cart the bodies back.
Alternatively, people can make new characters.
Same restraints as before, or if you want to make a spellcaster from scratch you can make one but it will be a 20 point buy, and you don't get the bonus teamwork feat or familiarity with firearms.
I need to think on it, I don't see this turning out any different going forward, we're always going to be out powered by magic, especially with the AP so heavily hammering. Each of those lesser ogres are what, Advanced CR 4 + 4 barbarian levels, so CR 6? That's a CR 8 encounter, not counting the big bad and the spell caster.
One question on the big bad, how come he has such a wierd to-hit progression.
+21/+18/+13. Shouldn't it be +21/+16/+11? Unless he's using bite, but a bite would be +21/+16/+11 or +13, depending on what feat he had for natural weapons. The lesser ogres are +10/+5/+2, which is right on for two attacks plus bite.
Anyway, I'm not sure this group could survive future combats, if the combats are as OP as this one was. And I really don't feel like playing musical characters or 'bring me back to life, verse 47 of 200'. Magic is just too powerful, and it's baked into the system too much. We're at that level where magic starts to decide it all, and guns just don't do enough damage to counteract that inherent bias.
I think we can all imagine what a few will save spells would have done ot the ogres, it would have torn them asunder. Add on lack of magic, and lack of healing, and there's just not much we can do against the unadjusted fights.
Quick question Buzz, I've been trying to figure out how the AP writer could so overpower the ogres...
Is it possible they are listed in the book with their rage stats factored in, and then you're adding the rage in a second time? That would explain why they are doing such horrible damage with each hit..
There's this magical thing called furious focus. By virtue of that the first power attack penalty is ignored. Hence we get +21/+18/+13 (with haste giving an extra attack). Sorry, you didn't catch me cheating or screwing up.
I think I can quote a certain GM who has commented on how encounters are not set by CR but by circumstance. Also CR is not a terribly meaningful measure when we are using 25 point buys and other oddities.
You made a hell of a ruckus. That made the enemies concentrate and the set CRs got thrown out the window. That was a function of your actions, not the module as written.
Lack of healing is a function of your class choices. Granted the restrictions do limit that somewhat, but you have 4 of six who cannot heal at all in combat. Your choice not mine. Of those who can heal in combat, neither is optimized for it to any extent.
About the issue of a few will saves vs. ogres:
Confusion Bomb
You have 2 ninjas which are build to be utterly sneak attack dependent (which is a long way of saying sub-optimal performers).
You have another character who is a long range sniper that almost never gets to snipe (and never will in any AP short of Kingmaker on any regular basis).
Again, please don't blame the module or a lack of magic for the results of your actions and choices.
I've offered a magic option if you want to try a new character. I'm OK with that. If that is what needs to be done going forward, feel free.
I'll post the stats from the module tomorrow. There were ogre/fighter 5s and Ogre/Barbarian 7 as the boss.
I wasn't trying to 'catch you cheating' buzz. I'm simply trying to figure out how the AP writer expected people to survive.
However, if your'e going to take every comment as a personal attack.. I think I'm done with this.
You are repeatedly turning this into personal attacks, when I'm commenting on the fact the AP is overpowered as written, and that our builds are not conducive to that type of OP. I do not have the book, and I didn't go buy the book, even though I could have easily, so it's confusing to me how the AP can be this overpowered. I'm sorry, but three attacks that do 28 pts on average per round, when average HP for the level is 50 is just OP.
Not that it matters anymore. I'll bow out now, if I wanted to launch personal attacks at you, I sure as hell could and would. Nothing I've said so far was a personal attack, but you've taken every post as one. I can't control your insecurities dude. If you want to see every comment on the situation as a personal attack, and the rebound on people, you go right ahead. But I see no reason to sit here and be your punching bag.
With all due respect, if you can't handle modifying an AP for the group you want to run through it, that's not my problem. There's a difference between putting up a group of attackers for a party of 5 people and having 2 of them attack it by themselves, and the GM being unable to properly modify an AP to get the level of lethality he wants for the whole party when they do show up (indeed, even ups it by making the spellcaster more powerful, when he knows the party is intentionally magic gimped). That the GM then complains the players made 'sub par' characters using the rules and restrictions he put in place and considers it a personal attack when someone says that those changes made it harder to 'dish out the damage', it shows a major lack on his part, not the player's parts. If you thought the characters were sub-par, you should have said something at the beginning, or adjusted the encounter down, instead of buffing the spellcaster.
So now you can take that last one as a personal attack on yourself. Since you seem to want to turn everything into one, I'll oblige you with that one.
No point in arguing if you've already bowed out.
But I will clarify some points.
The AP is not overpowered as written. It is a tough fight, especially if you don't play smart. It's been a maxim of RPGs for 40 years or so to 'don't split the party' and yet you folks have done it several times in one of the harder set ups (did anyone thing assaulting a fortress guarded by ogres was going to be a walk in the park?). You also just kept charging ahead. You are not under any time constraints. You could have stirred up the hornets and walked away to let them calm down.
Let's keep in mind what the AP is designed around party wise:
4 players
15 point buy
1 fighter
1 rogue
1 wizard
1 cleric
Iconic builds at that.
Does someone here think they could not, even given my constraints, build a six person party, with a 25 point build and a free teamwork feat to exceed that level of power? All of the iconics are min-minned. The fighter has crap AC. The rogue is a sorry joke. The wizard and cleric are barely adequate. That party is expected to handle these encounters, and all I have modified was
A) the spellcaster is slightly tougher (and you will note no mez spamming which is how I should target you folks) though the extra 1 level just gave her spells so she could engage up on the cliff (flight and invis, and she ran from that)
B) Added furious focus to the boss, and changed his rage powers to be smarter (though since they were now superstitious and witch hunter, it's not like it mattered to you)
I also added additional ogres in previous encounters since you were a larger party and you blew through all that.
I jazzed up the caster downstairs and you had little enough trouble making her run.
Up to this encounter you folks had pretty much blown through everything without any problem. You've had no losses. Not one. That's pretty amazing. You run into an encounter and have a couple of casualties, and it actually looks like the remainder will pull it out.
That's even with not being at all cautious.
Do I need to power down the AP? I certainly don't think so, unless we're trying to run a game of Chutes and Ladders instead of Pathfinder. You play a game in which there are risks, and if you are anti-cautious those risks increase.
As to whether I consider things personal attacks, no I don't consider them that. I just hate people who complain about things which are their own fault without admitting their own errors.
I suppose if I have pissed off everyone, then so be it. I'm sorry, but I get sick of self rationalization and excuses.
I still don't believe the premise of this is beyond your capabilities as a party. You just can't assume everything is merely a nail and you are a hammer.
In case people are curious:
The lieuts:
Ogre fighter 5 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 220)
CE Large humanoid (giant)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +5 DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 10, flat-footed 20 (+5 armor, +1 Dex, +6 natural,
–1 size)
hp 104 (9 HD; 4d8+5d10+59)
Fort +13, Ref +3, Will +5; +1 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities bravery +1
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +1 ogre hook +16/+11 (2d8+13/19–20/×3)
Ranged javelin +8/+3 (1d8+6)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks weapon training (axes +1)
STATISTICS
Str 23, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 5
Base Atk +8; CMB +15; CMD 26
Feats Improved Critical (ogre hook), Improved Natural Armor,
Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness,
Weapon Focus (ogre hook), Weapon Specialization (ogre hook) Skills Intimidate +11, Perception +5
Languages Giant
SQ armor training 1
Gear +1 hide armor, +1 ogre hook, 2 javelins
The boss
Male ogre barbarian 7 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 220)
CE Large humanoid (giant)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +9 DEFENSE
AC 17, touch 7, flat-footed 17 (+5 armor, +5 natural, –2 rage, –1 size) hp 158 (11 HD; 4d8+7d12+95)
Fort +16, Ref +3, Will +8
Defensive Abilities improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +2;
DR 2/— OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +1 human bane ogre hook +20/+15 (2d8+16/19–20/×3) Ranged javelin +9/+4 (1d8+10)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks rage (21 rounds/day), rage powers (no escape,
renewed vigor [1d8+9 hp], scent)
TACTICS
During Combat Jaagrath is perhaps a bit overconfident in his fighting prowess, but that certainly doesn’t mean he’s a pushover. He rages on the first round of combat, then focuses
his attacks on humans, saving other races for “clean up.” Morale If Jaagrath is brought below 25 hit points, he attempts to
flee to area B30 to recruit aid, drinking both of his potions as soon as he gets a chance. Once at area B30, Jaagrath fights to the death.
STATISTICS
Str 31, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +21; CMD 29
Feats Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (ogre hook),
Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness Skills Climb +16, Intimidate +19, Perception +9
Languages Giant
SQ fast movement
Combat Gear potions of cure serious wounds (2); Other Gear +1 hide armor, +1 human bane ogre hook, belt of giant strength +2
Note, I forgot to apply bane while fighting Urga (he counts as human), though I did modify this build (which is the one from the book).
no complaints here, Buzz -- in fact I like some of the details and explanations you've provided as we've been going along.
I suppose we should have rested when the ogres holed up in the last room; I was pondering ways to lock 'em in there, perhaps finding a way to use the Stubborn Nails my character purchased. But we've already slaughtered over a dozen creepy ogres, so I figured if the rest of the party wanted to press on, we can at least reduce their numbers a bit; then if it gets too tough we could just run away. It appears Bandy had the right idea when he started to evac -- we're just too stubborn to follow through! (and I hate to think what they would do to Narissa's body if we left it behind...)
A) You seem to have problems with internal consistency Buzz. First you said we had solid builds. Then you complain that Bander/Tirion made sneak attack people and I made a sniper and all 3 are sub par builds which are of no use. Which is it? They were solid builds, or they were sub-par?
B) A teamwork feat that, by the nature of how you are running the game, we have never gotten to use (at least since I joined) is about as game evening as saying you can have a greater wish, but can only use it to wish for chocolate easter bunnies.
C) By your own post, you've been running the ogres wrong. The Ogre fighters get 2 hits. You've been giving them 2 hits at their highest BAB, and then a second hit at their highest BAB, and then a third. It's very hard to be a 'competent player' when the GM is handing out extra full BAB attacks to every ogre in the building. Add onto that, they were +13, which means squeezing is +9, not +10. Although everyone seems to have gotten a +1 somewhere, I assume they all have +2 weapons now? Which is another power boost, adding that much gold to the encounter.
to hit: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (20) + 10 = 30 damage: 2d8 + 19 ⇒ (2, 7) + 19 = 28
to hit: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (5) + 10 = 15 miss
to hit: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (2) + 5 = 7 miss
D) By your own post, you've been hosing up the Boss's attacks. First off, you made him 21, not 20. Then you gave him three attacks. You also did the attack ability wrong when you applied Furious Focus. His first attack should have been (per your own post above) +20, then +12 (20 - 5 - 3), not +18, you subtracted 5 and then ADDED his penalty as a bonus. You gave him a +6 to hit on his second attacks that he shouldn't have gotten, and then gave him a 3rd attack every round.
You claim it's our fault for poor decision making, not yours. However, you gimp'd us at the build, made it difficult for us to get in combat healing, upped the power of the encounter, gave us 5 pts for building (a +1 yes, so 18 vs 17) and a feat that we can't use (and I'm actually built so that that feat should kick in every fight, it's never kicked in). Then, on top of that, you boosted the boss's power, boosted the minions power, boosted the spell caster, and claim it has nothing to do with how you modified them. An extra attack on each of them, at maximum BAB on the fighters, and with a +6 to second attacks the boss shouldn't have had, and a third neither should have had, but it's our fault?
And on that 'tweaking', when you tweak, it becomes your responsiblity to balance the tweaking, all you did was boost the difficulty and consider it our fault we fail? The furious focus didn't exist when that ogre was made. He was set at the power level he was to be a challenge, not a TPK. By giving him 'better' choices, you're amping up his power, without us having a corresponding amp up in power. So yeah, get as mad as you want at people complaining or being hypocrites or whatever, but get the damn plank out of your own eye before you tell us to work on our splinters.
Gee, I guess you can't actually go away when you say you're going to go away can you?
A) They could be better builds. A sniper in most APs is useless. You have sniped to effect all of once. The sneak attack builds will be good once they get to be high enough level ninjas (and have improved invisibility as a class power), but until then are very situational. If the situation cannot accommodate, they do minimal damage.
B) The teamwork feat which has been used several times despite your inability to recall it. In fact it has synergized with your build in a pretty broken way, and I lived with it.
C) You need to learn how to read. The ogres were hasted.
D) Two parts, I said I modified his build from what I posted, and 2 he was hasted (which gives +1, I know these rules things are complicated do try to keep up).
I slightly boosted the bosses power (really just 1 feat worth, which amounted to a +3 on one attack per round, and it's a no-brained feat IMO).
I did not boost the minions, I gimped them in fact. You should have been unconscious after the first two hits (they should have been doing +22 damage on the fighter ogres when power attacking, but I missed one of the BAB points). Them being hasted is not a modification, that's called a spell, and you were all informed when it was cast (the fact that nobody tried to spellcraft it is not my doing).
You are basically getting worked up over a single feat, and not a terribly powerful one. In fact if you care to even look at the rolls, the feat had all of zero effect, Both swings would have hit without the feat anyway. If you wish to continue having a hissy feat, by all means proceed, this is almost amusing. However you have yet to assemble anything approaching a rational case.
I do find the level of complaints coming from you extremely ironic considering the meat grinders you run.
Just three more levels until we are effective brother!!
Resting would have been good, but overconfidence gets you sometimes! I should have put up clones, and had shield running before charging in. If we make it out we now know to play smarter
assuming we live and level after this mess, my plan is to take Piranha Strike, to up my non-sneak attack damage.
Looks to me like you're over the hump. The ogress is looking pretty shabby right now, and you do level after this.
isn't there a prestige class that lets you use your level for scrolls? Cause I think the mass of scrolls I have been carrying around has turned out to be quite useful.
Pathfinder Savant does but it would be a while before you met the pre-reqs.. A scrollmaster wizard eventually gets it as well.
oh, yea that is not happening, a shame there isn't a prestige class that gives you bonuses to UMD items. without being a caster.
In any event I will be buying more scrolls, I think that fireball was a good play. Now taking suggestions for other things to have on hand.
Taking Rapid shot as my 9th level feat, along with another level of Inquisitor.
As far as spells go ill put a vote in for some haste scrolls. At the same time pit spells, slow, sleet storm, and sheet lightning makes excellent CC..
Although it would be a shame to bury a +4 cloak of resitance and +2 ring of protection.. Not sure what all Narissa had.
isn't urga going to get rezed?
Basically I just do no want to go through sheets and move stuff to the Loot sheet.
If you want to go through and pull stuff off and throw it on the sheet i don't mid pricing it later
adding RoP+2
CoR+4
already added the arrow snaring gloves cause they never were taken off the loot sheet.
ok Bander is set to move on, not much happens at 9 for ninja, more Sneak attack and the feat is about it.
with piranha strike i can, in theory, sneak for 1d4+1+1+6+5d6, potentially 4 times in a round.
Wondering if Urga is continuing or not.
well either way we have to make our way back to town, is there any more baddies to face or just move on with a search of the place?
So far I have a running tab of loot, up to date, I added the specific items mentioned. I think we bury them, if they aren't coming back with their weapons, and armor
i just need some help combing through for things that are worth selling or keeping, just throw it onto the loot sheet and i will price it
eyes of the eagle and ring of sustenance, and haversack off of Nerissa's sheet, leaving her armor and gun on her
Bander is interested in the ring, the cloak, the belt, and te headband
Headband I think should go to bo for smiling purposes for sure
As a melee type I think the ring makes sense for Bander the most.
The belt should go to Urga if he is coming back, otherwise drag has a decent claim with his mutagen
Everyone can use the cloak
Thoughts?
Amulet is good for anyone, Bander has his neck slot taken so he will pass on it.
Anyone want the boots of the mire?
No word from Urga, and we know Narissa is gone. Do we recruit more? Anyone have nominees or do we continue as is?
I have one or two in mind I'll see if they are interested.
Good, I have no interest in trying another open recruitment. Those are crapshoots with the odds of a one armed bandit.
Although he fires from range alot he can fire in melee with no restrictions so AC boosting items are never bad for him. Someone else should take the cloak, Bo's saves a by far the best in group.
That is true but Bander pretty much always is in melee.
If you want to roll for it I am game
Bander
Bo
Alphabetical
There's 2 RoP +2's..
there are? well isn't that special.
Working on loot sheet now
I assume we head back to town. I also assume we can't sell all the stuff can we?
There's town and then there's city. The town is that podunk place on the lake. It's not really any good for buying or selling. You really have to get back to Magnimar to unload most of the stuff (or buy things you want). Magnimar is a couple weeks away.
I dont think Turtleback Ferry has deep enough pockets to buy that haul..
Ok so Bo is wearing a RoP +1 that he'll donate to the group pile in exchange for the +2. He'll take the Headband of Cha as well. If the amulet is not used or if noone wants it he'll wear it as well.
As far as replacement players i vote one of them to have decent in combat heals..
As soon as I can afford Mithril Fullplate his AC will be tank worthy..
sheet updated. I have listed who gets what, notice where there are multiple options.
Let me know if there objections.
I also think we should report back to town, then go to Magniamr and upgrade our gear, after Bander picks up his dog.
i put out to feelers see if either bites
If the loot list is confirmed each of us survivors will get
11,000
with 3,586.89 going into a pot for healing supplies
I'm ok with taking people of spell casting classes at this point, but it is 20 point buy and no bonus feat (or firearm expertise).
makes sense, we would be recruiting from the locals
Exactly. Williamson will be finding new backup.
out of curiosity if you built up williamson, what would he be?
Not sure either he's just a merchant that works for the secret service on the side (high level expert) or a spy which poses as a merchant (slayer). Since it isn't important, I haven't thought about it.
Bo will sell his +1 Breastplate for 675 making his total 11675.
He then will purchase a suit of +1 Mithril Fullplate for 11650. The 25 extra goes into his stash.
He'll sell his beneficial bandolier as well for 500gp. Coupled with his remain cash of 305gp he'll replace his potion of fly.
He'll also ask Williamson for a resupply of steel rounds. He still has 335 of them so i dont suppose its a huge issue.
everyone take another 666, stupid for bander to keep the Belt, only gets +1 damage on his main hand
Thats a bad number. Bo takes 665 instead.
Bo will donate 200gp to various charities while in Magnimar and 100 to the Church of Sarenrae.
Leaves him with 895 in travel change..
His AC is a much more hefty 29 now, so he can assume the frontline duties..
oops it should be 11,500
Bo still has the potion of shield of faith and he no longer needs it. Tirion or Drain should take it.
As far as group stuff a few scrolls of lesser resto is never a bad option. I would vote a couple of scrolls of haste as well, since we're all physical attackers.
As far as replacements go we should look into a divine and arcane caster of some sort. Maybe not the standard wizard/cleric, but someone that can perform in combat heals and perhaps an arcane spell or 2..