Old School Greyhawk - Saltmarsh Campaign PFRPG (570CY - Southern Keoland)

Game Master ALLENDM

Greyhawk Links

Greyhawk Maps
Map of Greyhawk Flanaess (Old School)

Greyhawk Calendar PDF

Campaign Doc Links

Making Craft Work
Alternate Magic Item Crafting
House Rules 09022019
Greyhawk Old School Campaigns 2018 Folder

Party Links

Party Magic and Treasure List

Greyhawk Old School Campaigns 2018 Folder
Map of the Town of Saltmarsh
Party XP
Timeline of Events

Current Event Links

Second Floor Map
Outground & First Floor Map
Party Skill, Save, and Ability Check Macros Sheet
Combat Manager

Time line, Location, Conditions:

Party: 5th Day of Readying, Waterday, 2 hours past noon. Party is on the trail going to the Haunted House.

Conditions:The day is sunny but breezy and the day is warm. The breeze is coming in from the south and west.


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Saltmarsh House Rules F Human (Suel) Arcanist 2| HP 16/16 Healthy | AC 11 F 10 T 11 CMD 12 | F +2 R +1 W+4 | Init +1 | Perc +2, SM+1, Stealth +1 | Know (arcane) +7, Spellcraft +8
Resources:
Arcane Reservoir 4/5 ; Spells: 1st 3/4

Thanks for the updated Magic Item Crafting rules Jack! I can see where Ferona will have fun with these...assuming she can survive to that point he he.


Healthy Female Human (Flan) Fighter 2; HP 22/22; Grazed: 16; Wounded: 11; Critical: 5; DR: 1/- || AC 17 || T 12 || FF 15; Fort +4; Ref +2; Will +2; Init +2; Per +7; SM +2; Stealth +2; CMB +5; CMD 17; Spd 30 ft. Current AC 17/12/15; Hero Points: 4/4

Ok, will take the Feat:

Additional Traits.

Will take the Traits:

Heirloom Weapon, and

Disillusioned:
Your childhood was ended by a great disaster or atrocity that you witnessed. To cope with the horror, you have learned to reflexively suppress all emotion.

Benefit(s): You gain a +2 trait bonus on Will saving throws against emotion and fear effects


Healthy Female Human (Flan) Fighter 2; HP 22/22; Grazed: 16; Wounded: 11; Critical: 5; DR: 1/- || AC 17 || T 12 || FF 15; Fort +4; Ref +2; Will +2; Init +2; Per +7; SM +2; Stealth +2; CMB +5; CMD 17; Spd 30 ft. Current AC 17/12/15; Hero Points: 4/4

And changing Craft: Weapon to Craft: Harpoon, unless Craft: Weapon is actually a thing. I kinda get the impression it should be fairly specific.

Now Naia and Peran can go home, attempt to find a net to craft up, only for a Temlow to tell them an ancestor used the very thing they are looking for...and it’s stored...up there, in the loft.


Race Half Elf | 10/10 HP | AC15 F12 T12 | F+2 R+4 W+3 | Init+2 | Perc+7, Stealth+6, SM+1, Diplo+5, Know+5(All)/+9(Trained) | CMD13 | Spd 30'

I like those crafting rules! Always thought it was a bit silly that crafting MW armor took months, but enchanting it only took a couple of days!

The Exchange

Male Human (Oeridian) Aerdi 2 Paladin (VMC Bloodrager) +0 init, +5 perc, 24 HP Max, 14 AC, F +5, R +2, W +5

Peran and Ferona I hope you don't mind me spending money on us having a tent and some cots that I can carry for us and set up for sleeping when on the road (until I can get unseen servants wand of course lol)


Male

Make sure you account for the weight. If in combat probably best to drop the gear :)


Male
Narciso Virbaldi wrote:
I like those crafting rules! Always thought it was a bit silly that crafting MW armor took months, but enchanting it only took a couple of days!

I agree. I always thought the crafting rules (in general) and the magic item crafting was cumbersome.


Race Half Elf | 10/10 HP | AC15 F12 T12 | F+2 R+4 W+3 | Init+2 | Perc+7, Stealth+6, SM+1, Diplo+5, Know+5(All)/+9(Trained) | CMD13 | Spd 30'
Quote:
I agree. I always thought the crafting rules (in general) and the magic item crafting was cumbersome.

I've usually felt that the magic item crafting rules were OK. While some have said that it is paying for gold with a feat, it sometimes seems that it is the only reliable way to get items that you actually want.... And spending 375 GP and 1 day to get a wand with 50 charges of a useful 1st level spell just seems easy!

My biggest gripe has been the material components required for crafting the magical equipment.
So I'm going to craft a wand of CLW. So I get the 'blank' wand made of ????. And now I ???? Soak it in holy oil? Sprinkle it with ???? What am I paying 375 GP for to make it?
How about a wand of Endure Elements? I'm in the frozen north and don't want to be heavily encumbered with the cold weather gear. I'm a high enough level caster that a little wand should be simple.... So what material components do I need to get? Wait! There's no "Magical Reagents shop" in this little burg, so I search around town for ???? Or the group hunts in the wilderness for ????
Ditto pretty much anything else. So crafting a high level staff takes the wizard 1 couple of weeks. ?? Use the craft while adventuring rules! Doubles the time and takes the prepared spell from your availability. But it still can work.


Race: Half-Orc | HP12/12 Healthy | AC20 (DR3/-) F18 T12, AC17 F12 T15 | F+5 R+3 W+3 | Init +2 | Intimid+3 Kn(Dung)+7 Kn (Nat)+4 Per+1 SM+1 Sur+4 Classes/Levels: Fighter 1

Definitely crafting MW items has always been absurdly time consuming...


Male
Narciso Virbaldi wrote:
Quote:
I agree. I always thought the crafting rules (in general) and the magic item crafting was cumbersome.

I've usually felt that the magic item crafting rules were OK. While some have said that it is paying for gold with a feat, it sometimes seems that it is the only reliable way to get items that you actually want.... And spending 375 GP and 1 day to get a wand with 50 charges of a useful 1st level spell just seems easy!

My biggest gripe has been the material components required for crafting the magical equipment.
So I'm going to craft a wand of CLW. So I get the 'blank' wand made of ????. And now I ???? Soak it in holy oil? Sprinkle it with ???? What am I paying 375 GP for to make it?
How about a wand of Endure Elements? I'm in the frozen north and don't want to be heavily encumbered with the cold weather gear. I'm a high enough level caster that a little wand should be simple.... So what material components do I need to get? Wait! There's no "Magical Reagents shop" in this little burg, so I search around town for ???? Or the group hunts in the wilderness for ????
Ditto pretty much anything else. So crafting a high level staff takes the wizard 1 couple of weeks. ?? Use the craft while adventuring rules! Doubles the time and takes the prepared spell from your availability. But it still can work.

There a few things that sold me on the alternate magic item crafting rules. More so than anything else really is you are not tied to creating specific items for specific effects which has always seemed wonky to me when fused with magic which should be flexible when constructing magical items.

The benefit of these rules is it keys the feats off of TRIGGERS and thus you can create any item and tie it to a specific trigger. So a ring could be a single-use item, a charged item, a craft constant item or an enchantment bonus item. Heck it can be all of them because of the way the craft rules are set up. More importantly you can set that single use item as a spell trigger, command word, or use-activated. It is much more flexible and it allows your spell caster to essentially create his own magic items as he increases in levels.

An example of this is the wizard has a arcane bond with his ring or staff and he decides to place a spell using Single-Use/Spell-Trigger which costs him 90gp (1x3x30gp) plus 50% of material cost (if any). He could apply these single-use a few times on his arcane bond and he could apply a few command-word or use-activated on his companion's items as well. As he gains levels and he takes Craft Charged Item he now can take that same arcane bonded items and place a 2nd level spell on it with a command word (2x5x875=8750) to boost his ability. He can also apply this to his companion's items as well. In short it is no longer a wand or staff or a rod or ring...it is simply what type of magical crafting and what type of trigger.

Instead of Craft Potion the Craft Single-Use is far more flexible in nature. Craft Charged Item is far more flexible... It just makes crafting more effective and meaningful. Especially for characters that masterwork items that can have magic crafted into them.


Male

You can reduce the time by taking a -2 on spellcraft (cutting time in half) but offset that by having access to Quality Research Material (Fine Magic Library) gives you a +2 and Quality of materials (Fine Quality Materials (70% above base price) gives you a +2 to spellcraft. So decrease time you increase cost which in my mind makes sense and seems reasonable. Building magic items in the field is going to be harder but in a good lab with a good library that helps to reduce the time.


Male

Sorry for not posting this weekend. Things got a little crazy around the house and I didn't get a chance to write any posts.

Will have posts up tonight for us.

Jack


M Wood Olf | HP22/22 Healthy | AC16 F14 T12 CMD17 | F+3 R+7 W+1 | Init +4 | Perc+10+ SM+1 Stealth+9 Survival+6+ Ranger (Ilsurian Archer [Divine Marksman]) 2

Hey.

So, I was sent home to telework last week. Or was it the end of the week before? Doesn't matter, I guess. Been trying to be good and not pay attention to this when I SHOULD be working.

Thing is, one of the reasons I can telework as easily as I can is that most of my job is responding "conversationally" to people and events, not doing hands-on things in the shop. Out of sight means fewer "pop-up" things at my doorstep to respond to. Suddenly I have more time on my hands.

Still trying to be good and not ignore the work input streams filling my time online or in games. Trying.

My daughter is also teleworking out of my house.

Leaves my wife trying to care for two of the grandchildren toddlers while the two of us are doing business phone calls. She's suffering pretty badly without any illness.


Male
Rabalar wrote:

Hey.

So, I was sent home to telework last week. Or was it the end of the week before? Doesn't matter, I guess. Been trying to be good and not pay attention to this when I SHOULD be working.

Thing is, one of the reasons I can telework as easily as I can is that most of my job is responding "conversationally" to people and events, not doing hands-on things in the shop. Out of sight means fewer "pop-up" things at my doorstep to respond to. Suddenly I have more time on my hands.

Still trying to be good and not ignore the work input streams filling my time online or in games. Trying.

My daughter is also teleworking out of my house.

Leaves my wife trying to care for two of the grandchildren toddlers while the two of us are doing business phone calls. She's suffering pretty badly without any illness.

My wife and I have both working from home since Spring Break (4 weeks). Looks like the boys will be out of school the entire year. Doing online and they seem to be on task. I have taken them out on fishing trips a few times at Lake Lavon and we work out (baseball/soccer/conditioning) in the back yard.

My wife works with the CDC and many of the other non-profits, medical institutes, and medical research orgs working on the data modeling for CPR/AED and respiratory, heart attacks, and stroke related illness. They do a lot of the data modeling (IHME, DCRI, Joint Commision, CDC). They have shifted gears to focusing on specifically ventilators. Her teams have had to change gears and focus on vents and were to put them and how to work the logistics from a national and regional perspective. The few calls I have listened to have been grim... One of the ER docs that is on their national board and is on the advisory team was telling her seven people came in for unrelated issues (dislocated shoulder, heart attack, and things like that.) all of them tested positive for Covid-19. That was in NOLA last week...the ER doc said they were nearly out of PPE resources and ICU beds will be a big issue moving forward. We are buckled down for the long haul in the house. I figure end of May to mid June is a realistic outlook when this starts to settle. Texas doesn't even peak until May 9th and that seems to be moving as it started at May 2nd. As with most data modeling as we close down time frame the modeling becomes more and more accurate. So this doesn't seem to be shortening but extending/flattening.

Covid-19 Health Data This is the data modeling from IHME and the University of Washington and the Gates Foundation. It is the primary data modeling that most of the states and federal agencies are using.

Hope everyone stays safe and healthy.


Human (Suel)Male HP:20/20 Grazed|AC:17 T:15 FF:12 CMD:+15 |F:+1 R:+7 W:+1| Init:+4 | Perc:+6| Bluff+7 Disable+10 Sense Motive+5 Stealth+11 |Dagger/Thrown +5/+5,1d4+0 CMB;+1 Human (Suel) Unchained Rogue 2

I wish everyone luck with the game. You are a good bunch of people to play with. Good luck all.
Jovich


Healthy Female Human (Flan) Fighter 2; HP 22/22; Grazed: 16; Wounded: 11; Critical: 5; DR: 1/- || AC 17 || T 12 || FF 15; Fort +4; Ref +2; Will +2; Init +2; Per +7; SM +2; Stealth +2; CMB +5; CMD 17; Spd 30 ft. Current AC 17/12/15; Hero Points: 4/4

Hey Jovich, sorry to see you go - that only leaves me and hustonj left and huston already left once! Are you leaving due to real world stuff or is this what makes sense for D’ogryn?

If the former, I’m sure Jack won’t mind me saying we’ll be here if you want to come back.

If the latter, do you want to make another character?


Male

All,

I don't want to see Jovich go as I enjoy his character immensely as well as his posts so I am going to keep this all above board for everyone. I realize Jovich probably got frustrated with me from the last few posts I made but honestly, this is all part of Ned Shankshaft and how I set his character up and how I set up what is going on in the Town. He is a key adversary for the party and I wanted him to not be an easy kill for the group. One of the cool things about the U series is they left the events in Town pretty much opened for the DM to create around the House and the events that transpire afterward. I wanted to create several key adversaries for the PC's and Ned is one of them along with a few other NPC's that the characters have already interacted with but don't know about. I am hoping Jovich will take a deep breath come back...but if not I just wanted everyone to know.

Jovich PM to me:

I had a great time with the group and you as a DM. You are a wonderful DM and a great story teller.

I am sorry for such a short notice but this last encounter has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. We have a great pace on this game but it took us two years to make it to level two. Now most of the items the we had to show for all that hard work is gone. I am sorry but I just do not want to put another two years into a game to see my hard work disappear.

I wish you luck and thanks for all the good times.
John

My Post back to Jovich:

John,

I am sorry to see you walk away but this is part of the story...one that you helped create and one that you fought very hard to be part of. RPG's are about stories and plots and developing them in part with the PC's and part of that is setting up NPC's to be interesting adversaries... Just as we are seeing things come to a conclusion you are deciding to quit because things didn't go your way? Short term thinking. Come on John you have to let this play out and what did you really lose? Give it a day and if you feel like that then no hard feelings but honestly this is all part of the intrigue of the House and what is going on in Town and an enemy you created for yourself at the house.

Jack

Hopefully, this all settles as this was not something I was expecting as we had discussed pace and everyone was fine with our current pace.

Jack


Race: Half-Orc | HP12/12 Healthy | AC20 (DR3/-) F18 T12, AC17 F12 T15 | F+5 R+3 W+3 | Init +2 | Intimid+3 Kn(Dung)+7 Kn (Nat)+4 Per+1 SM+1 Sur+4 Classes/Levels: Fighter 1

Grond never had much chance to interact with D’ogryn apart from the house incidents, but in any case sorry to see you go.

ALLENDM, thank you for being open and clear about this one - one of the things with playing PbP vs around the table is you cannot garner people's reactions as a DM - yo do not see their faces, their body language, you do not hear the tone in their voice, etc.

Thus it sometimes becomes hard to garner the levels of frustration (I mean this for DM and player sides), which can lead to situations such as this I guess (and others).

To D’ogryn I would say I can understand where he is coming from regarding the loss of loot (as it is an integral part of character advancement in Pathfinder as in so many others RPGs) without being able to do anything about it - but the fact is one way or another, this adversary has already become memorable.


Healthy Female Human (Flan) Fighter 2; HP 22/22; Grazed: 16; Wounded: 11; Critical: 5; DR: 1/- || AC 17 || T 12 || FF 15; Fort +4; Ref +2; Will +2; Init +2; Per +7; SM +2; Stealth +2; CMB +5; CMD 17; Spd 30 ft. Current AC 17/12/15; Hero Points: 4/4

Ummm... well...if you ever post publically that PM where I asked if Naia could become a half-demon half-drow half-minotaur Summoner/Monk I’ll be pissed. I do hope Jovich is ok with it.

As for his feelings, those are his to have and no-one can second guess them. To be honest, the pace IS good, and the advancement is snail-paced, but that’s my reference - I love low-level games so this rather granular stuff is ok with me.

As for the “stuff” being gone, I was unaware we...had...anything. As a player I might wish for more actual “lewt” (magic items/weapons/armor!!!) but the alternative “Monty Haul” I played through in my youth I never want to see again.

Secondly, my old-school sensibilities remind me that bad things happen, and you move on with whatever you have left. You may not like it, but what’s the alternative? Your character certainly can’t be blamed, and absent DM grudge (which I don’t see here) or power level readjustment (again, I don’t see, given we have...nothing) the bad stuff is merely a function of the plot.

Say it ain’t so Jo.


Healthy Female Human (Flan) Fighter 2; HP 22/22; Grazed: 16; Wounded: 11; Critical: 5; DR: 1/- || AC 17 || T 12 || FF 15; Fort +4; Ref +2; Will +2; Init +2; Per +7; SM +2; Stealth +2; CMB +5; CMD 17; Spd 30 ft. Current AC 17/12/15; Hero Points: 4/4
Grond Borg-Drautran wrote:
To D’ogryn I would say I can understand where he is coming from regarding the loss of loot (as it is an integral part of character advancement in Pathfinder as in so many others RPGs) without being able to do anything about it - but the fact is one way or another, this adversary has already become memorable.

Emphasis mine. I must be missing something as Grond and Jovich allude to it. What has been lost and how does it affect our advancement?


Race: Half-Orc | HP12/12 Healthy | AC20 (DR3/-) F18 T12, AC17 F12 T15 | F+5 R+3 W+3 | Init +2 | Intimid+3 Kn(Dung)+7 Kn (Nat)+4 Per+1 SM+1 Sur+4 Classes/Levels: Fighter 1

Well Grond has not lost anything, but it seems some of the loot you guys gathered was stolen from D’ogryn's house?

As for the emphasized portion - acquiring gear and levels/skills/abilities has always been a part of character building in Pathfinder, D&D, etc - I see it as a valid and fun portion of the game, and I include the wonder of grabbing a magical sword or some wondrous book of forgotten lore as part of it also.

for me that is part of being an adventurer. Not sure if that makes it any clearer to understand? If not, let me know and I will have another go.

The Exchange

Male Human (Oeridian) Aerdi 2 Paladin (VMC Bloodrager) +0 init, +5 perc, 24 HP Max, 14 AC, F +5, R +2, W +5

Game on! I want him to play as I enjoy his character as well, however, it's ultimately his choice


Healthy Female Human (Flan) Fighter 2; HP 22/22; Grazed: 16; Wounded: 11; Critical: 5; DR: 1/- || AC 17 || T 12 || FF 15; Fort +4; Ref +2; Will +2; Init +2; Per +7; SM +2; Stealth +2; CMB +5; CMD 17; Spd 30 ft. Current AC 17/12/15; Hero Points: 4/4

Hey I get that, I just didn’t think we found much to be stolen in the first place...and of the magical stuff didn’t D’ogryn not lose the magic armor? Was the longsword magical or just masterwork? m clearly not paying enough attention on the piles of treasure! ;p


Saltmarsh House Rules F Human (Suel) Arcanist 2| HP 16/16 Healthy | AC 11 F 10 T 11 CMD 12 | F +2 R +1 W+4 | Init +1 | Perc +2, SM+1, Stealth +1 | Know (arcane) +7, Spellcraft +8
Resources:
Arcane Reservoir 4/5 ; Spells: 1st 3/4

Like the others have said I am sorry to see you go Jovich. I completely understand why this must suck for you as you did defeat Ned before, at the cost of Zove and Thout (almost), and now not only is he free but we lost all of his loot too.

I think Jack is right too though, and this is indeed part of the story. Look at it this way: The fact Ned escaped with inside help gave us some valuable information that we never would have gotten had you simply killed him. Now we know there is a deep conspiracy in Saltmarsh, one with several key players in it. Trust me Ferona is going to want to see this through.

As for the pacing yeah it is indeed slow but considering what happens to spellcasters the more power they gain it could be considered a blessing in disguise he he.

PS: I am not sure why, if D'Ogryn cares about his family so much, he would skip town on them thus leaving them at Ned's mercy. Just seems like out of character thinking to me.

PPS: Naia that was a MW longsword.


M Wood Olf | HP22/22 Healthy | AC16 F14 T12 CMD17 | F+3 R+7 W+1 | Init +4 | Perc+10+ SM+1 Stealth+9 Survival+6+ Ranger (Ilsurian Archer [Divine Marksman]) 2

My apologies for the meandering, looping discussion below, but it is all there for a reason . . ..

Greyhawk, generally, is "loot light."

Some of you may remember the name Iquander and the Iquandex? Iquander was widely recognized on the early internet as THE expert on Greyhawk, Gygax wasn't obviously on-line, so, take that aspect as you will.

The Iquandex was a web site built and maintained by Iquander as a reference site for all things Greyhawk. Among other things, he started the Oerth Journal and made it available on that web site.

So, why are you going over this, you silly old man?

Because today nearly everyone in the industry knows Iquander's real name: Erik Mona. Erik was a WotC employee (responsible for their publications: Dragon, Dungeon, and the Polyhedron), but Greyhawk was still his passion. When 3rd Ed D&D (You know, the system Pathfinder 1st ed was an expansion of) was published with Greyhawk as the default setting again, Erik stepped in and began managing the new RPGA campaign set in Greyhawk (Living Greyhawk). After a couple of years he was forcibly removed from that informal position in order to clearly delineate WotC product line support structures, because the publications (and supporting staff) were being sold to Paizo.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland had been hired into the RPGA (out of a copy shop, IIRC) as an intern to support Erik. When Erik got pulled back, SRM was given the reigns. Yes, this is the same guy listed in the third spot of the four on the cover of the Pathfinder 2nd Ed Core Book.

Many people don't remember the first couple of years of the RPGA's Living Greyhawk campaign, because SRM took it in such a different direction, but, while Erik was running the campaign, characters could expect to receive as loot only MW weapons or armor for the first few levels. When a magic weapon was available as loot that early, there was NOTHING ELSE of note in the loot, and it took roughly 2/3rds of a level to get the item that only one person in the party could keep, and might not be of a type anyone in the group wanted to use. I remember finding coin "hoards" where we had to (using the encumbrance rules) justify how many of the coins we could get back home in a single trip, because the event didn't allow for multiple trips to recover all of it. I had friends who chose to purchase a small wagon and mule before they improved their weapons/armor, so that they could strip more loot value out of the story. We used to make a point of taking the furniture we found for resale. Seriously.

So, with all of that firmly in mind . . .. Those diamonds quite probably represent as much loot, or more, as Erik would think was appropriate for this point in a Greyhawk setting. Yes, after a few levels, we should find more exciting and valuable loot. Yes, we have been conditioned to expect more fiscal rewards by the people running things these days.

Honestly, I think the way Jovich has been playing D'Ogryn actually encouraged this turn of events. His focus on secrecy and expressed expectation of betrayal or sabotage would naturally turn the GM's thoughts to those topics. Jovich is an excellent writer, and his posts have been a sold counter-point to AllenDM's. I know I don't write anywhere near as much in the game thread to serve that way, well.

I know my first thought when reading that the stuff had been stolen out of D'Ogryn's space was NOT "How did he find that room?" it was "Oh-ho, so, we're going to trade thefts for a while, are we? Just in case you didn't ALREADY want to find this bugger again . . .."

Different people choose different responses, though.

Edit: The Living Greyhawk experience may better highlight why I, as a player, want to find a positive use for the MW Longsword within the party instead of treating it as a heavy collection of coins to be spent later.


Male
Naia Temlow wrote:

Ummm... well...if you ever post publically that PM where I asked if Naia could become a half-demon half-drow half-minotaur Summoner/Monk I’ll be pissed. I do hope Jovich is ok with it.

As for his feelings, those are his to have and no-one can second guess them. To be honest, the pace IS good, and the advancement is snail-paced, but that’s my reference - I love low-level games so this rather granular stuff is ok with me.

As for the “stuff” being gone, I was unaware we...had...anything. As a player I might wish for more actual “lewt” (magic items/weapons/armor!!!) but the alternative “Monty Haul” I played through in my youth I never want to see again.

Secondly, my old-school sensibilities remind me that bad things happen, and you move on with whatever you have left. You may not like it, but what’s the alternative? Your character certainly can’t be blamed, and absent DM grudge (which I don’t see here) or power level readjustment (again, I don’t see, given we have...nothing) the bad stuff is merely a function of the plot.

Say it ain’t so Jo.

I thought long and hard about would it be right to post this in the open to all of us and my thought was that Jovich was worth fighting to keep in our group and I didn't know if my words would carry has much weight by themselves. My hope was, and is, that as a group we could convince Jovich to stay. Nothing malicious was intended by it.

I am not the type that puts DM against party. A matter of fact I actually want the party to have fun and so I try to challenge the party with not only good encounters but meaningful plots and subplots. I intentionally littered Saltmarsh with a lot of little subplots. Most of which you have not come across but a good many you have stumbled on.... I try to put little easter eggs here and there in my writing so that if you are paying attention to the things that are happening to our character (and around them) you can start to pick up on the little things. When Ferona, Antas, and Peran were added to the party I decided to move one of those subplots in to get them involved in the town politics from another direction.

Jack


Male
Ferona Ardomil wrote:

Like the others have said I am sorry to see you go Jovich. I completely understand why this must suck for you as you did defeat Ned before, at the cost of Zove and Thout (almost), and now not only is he free but we lost all of his loot too.

I think Jack is right too though, and this is indeed part of the story. Look at it this way: The fact Ned escaped with inside help gave us some valuable information that we never would have gotten had you simply killed him. Now we know there is a deep conspiracy in Saltmarsh, one with several key players in it. Trust me Ferona is going to want to see this through.

As for the pacing yeah it is indeed slow but considering what happens to spellcasters the more power they gain it could be considered a blessing in disguise he he.

PS: I am not sure why, if D'Ogryn cares about his family so much, he would skip town on them thus leaving them at Ned's mercy. Just seems like out of character thinking to me.

PPS: Naia that was a MW longsword.

This is all OOC for the group but so far you have actually found two magical items and one magical set of scrolls and some masterwork items:

+1 Studded Leather Armor (which is in D'ogryn's possession)
+1 Spring Blade (which Ned got back)
Matching Pair of Masterwork Daggers (shark head handles) (which Ned got back)
Masterwork Longsword (in Rabalar's possession)
Divine Magical Scroll - 2 spells (Soros identified them for D'ogryn and they are still in D'ogryn's possession as far as I can tell.)
Bag of 4 (3 diamonds).

The rest of it is coins and minor valued gem stones, poison from the goblins (Sneezeweed and Hool Marsh Blue Frog poison) and Ned's poison he uses.

I set up a bit of a time line to more or less help me navigate the plot and subplots. As the days unfold certain things happen around the party...those things at points will also trigger clues or comments from NPC's. This has happened several times to both groups so that if you key on what is happening you can start to pick up on these things. Now some of "Clues" that tie specific subplots together have happened to one group or the other so that is where the entire party has to tie it all in :)

If you recall I said early on when we started I am not big into handing out a lot of magic treasure, especially early on, as I prefer to reward the party with a wide variety of treasure. You actually have in your possession one very significant piece of treasure from the house... But it doesn't appear anyone has figured that out yet :)


Male
Ferona Ardomil wrote:


The fact Ned escaped with inside help gave us some valuable information that we never would have gotten had you simply killed him. Now we know there is a deep conspiracy in Saltmarsh, one with several key players in it.

And this is an important point. Again all OOC but someone in town had already informed their Assassin where to find each of you if things got out of hand. The assassin was a over reaction to that person being afraid they would be caught (which is part of the original story line of the U series). He knew where Zove's family was and where she ranged with her cat. When Zove left the party this gave me an opportunity to work in a major clue for the party. I had intended this to be a NPC close to the group but Zove made the impact more visceral for the party. He knew where D'ogryn worked and where Soro's family lived. He knew that Rabalar and Edan where strangers to town. This all happened after the town hall meeting (where many people where in attendance).


Male
Rabalar wrote:

My apologies for the meandering, looping discussion below, but it is all there for a reason . . ..

Greyhawk, generally, is "loot light."

Some of you may remember the name Iquander and the Iquandex? Iquander was widely recognized on the early internet as THE expert on Greyhawk, Gygax wasn't obviously on-line, so, take that aspect as you will.

The Iquandex was a web site built and maintained by Iquander as a reference site for all things Greyhawk. Among other things, he started the Oerth Journal and made it available on that web site.

So, why are you going over this, you silly old man?

Because today nearly everyone in the industry knows Iquander's real name: Erik Mona. Erik was a WotC employee (responsible for their publications: Dragon, Dungeon, and the Polyhedron), but Greyhawk was still his passion. When 3rd Ed D&D (You know, the system Pathfinder 1st ed was an expansion of) was published with Greyhawk as the default setting again, Erik stepped in and began managing the new RPGA campaign set in Greyhawk (Living Greyhawk). After a couple of years he was forcibly removed from that informal position in order to clearly delineate WotC product line support structures, because the publications (and supporting staff) were being sold to Paizo.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland had been hired into the RPGA (out of a copy shop, IIRC) as an intern to support Erik. When Erik got pulled back, SRM was given the reigns. Yes, this is the same guy listed in the third spot of the four on the cover of the Pathfinder 2nd Ed Core Book.

Many people don't remember the first couple of years of the RPGA's Living Greyhawk campaign, because SRM took it in such a different direction, but, while Erik was running the campaign, characters could expect to receive as loot only MW weapons or armor for the first few levels. When a magic weapon was available as loot that early, there was NOTHING ELSE of note in the loot, and it took roughly 2/3rds of a level to get the item that only one person in the party could keep, and...

Hustonj,

I am a big Erik Mona fan as you probably can tell. I grew up in Basic D&D (70's) and have seen it grow into what we have now. I had the pleasure of learning D&D from a English teacher that introduced our small class to it so we didn't do huge loads of treasure or haul off the entire treasure hoard. It was all story and creative writing and role playing. It was very fun so that has left a big impression on how I like to play and run games. Often times we had to figure out what we thought was important and take only what we could carry. I can recall many times where our wizard or cleric didn't have an identify or detect magic spell ready and we had to ask tons of questions and do all sorts of silly experiments to figure out what would be taken with us and what would be left behind. I personally don't like "Video game style" RPG's where you get to keep all the treasure and you instantly know what a magic item is as soon as you pick it up and I like to build in a lot of intrigue and subterfuge to make the game challenging for the group.

I really hope Jovich takes the time to read these and decides to take step back and revisit his decision.

Jack


Race: Half-Orc | HP12/12 Healthy | AC20 (DR3/-) F18 T12, AC17 F12 T15 | F+5 R+3 W+3 | Init +2 | Intimid+3 Kn(Dung)+7 Kn (Nat)+4 Per+1 SM+1 Sur+4 Classes/Levels: Fighter 1

Ladies and gents, I can say I really envy your references, and the first hand experience with so many relevant names in the RPG industry.

That being said, standing to my right in a bookcase are my Greyhawk modules, including my first one - The ADVENTURE BEGINS (TSR9577).

In its homage I say - Rabalar, I will take that sword! :D


M Wood Olf | HP22/22 Healthy | AC16 F14 T12 CMD17 | F+3 R+7 W+1 | Init +4 | Perc+10+ SM+1 Stealth+9 Survival+6+ Ranger (Ilsurian Archer [Divine Marksman]) 2

Heh. Well, now we just have to get there through play. <grin>

The Exchange

Male Human (Oeridian) Aerdi 2 Paladin (VMC Bloodrager) +0 init, +5 perc, 24 HP Max, 14 AC, F +5, R +2, W +5

I got to play on the table several times with Dave Arneson in Minnesota where I live which is really cool


Healthy Female Human (Flan) Fighter 2; HP 22/22; Grazed: 16; Wounded: 11; Critical: 5; DR: 1/- || AC 17 || T 12 || FF 15; Fort +4; Ref +2; Will +2; Init +2; Per +7; SM +2; Stealth +2; CMB +5; CMD 17; Spd 30 ft. Current AC 17/12/15; Hero Points: 4/4

Sure, but beyond being able to buy slightly better equipment, the diamonds/money isn’t really part of “advancement” in the same way Pathfinder expects you to have the Big 6 items to be CR relevant.

To be clearer, if it wasn’t crystal: much more in favor of granular, low-rate, low level loot than the opposite. And Ferona hit the nail on the head about higher levels and casters!

Which, given I hardly ever play casters (almost never arcane) I don’t have access to spells to tell me what the minor rewarding pillowcase of loot-carrying does or how many charges it might or should have. I’m currently wearing it as a rakish headscarf.

But my most important point I’ll save for the end here:

Did that rogue just make off on his horse with the only magic armor we had?!? ;)


Male
Naia Temlow wrote:

Sure, but beyond being able to buy slightly better equipment, the diamonds/money isn’t really part of “advancement” in the same way Pathfinder expects you to have the Big 6 items to be CR relevant.

To be clearer, if it wasn’t crystal: much more in favor of granular, low-rate, low level loot than the opposite. And Ferona hit the nail on the head about higher levels and casters!

Which, given I hardly ever play casters (almost never arcane) I don’t have access to spells to tell me what the minor rewarding pillowcase of loot-carrying does or how many charges it might or should have. I’m currently wearing it as a rakish headscarf.

But my most important point I’ll save for the end here:

Did that rogue just make off on his horse with the only magic armor we had?!? ;)

Yes...yes he did. I believe he also took the two divine scrolls as well as some important paperwork but we can work that all out. Hoping for his return :)


Race Half Elf | 10/10 HP | AC15 F12 T12 | F+2 R+4 W+3 | Init+2 | Perc+7, Stealth+6, SM+1, Diplo+5, Know+5(All)/+9(Trained) | CMD13 | Spd 30'

This has been really fun reading, except for hearing that D'ogryn is leaving us.

I've been playing D&D since the 70's, and yes the "light treasure" games have been much more fun than the "Monty Haul" games. Only difference was one where the DM was much harder with the item identification rules, and included a lot of cursed stuff. Re-read the Identify spell and realize that a mage can only cast it twice a day if he has a good CON. (Only once per day after the first since the CON recovery takes 6 hours per point) AND. he has to "use" the item, which activates any curse on it, to identify it. AND it didn't really identify every little detail about the item.(like the exact pluses on it, or the remaining charges, etc. AND it can identify false information!

The high power "useless" treasures were also fun. Example: Getting a Robe of the Good Arch Magi, when our magi was neutral. Or the holy avenger when we didn't have a Paladin.... Wands of Trap Detection, when we had a really good thief. Etc.

The current method of using Spellcraft, etc. is much easier, if you happen to find something magical.

So, I'm really loving this game. D'ogryn, if you can come back, please do!


M Wood Olf | HP22/22 Healthy | AC16 F14 T12 CMD17 | F+3 R+7 W+1 | Init +4 | Perc+10+ SM+1 Stealth+9 Survival+6+ Ranger (Ilsurian Archer [Divine Marksman]) 2

As I was cooking last night, I had a thought. I'm looking for feedback, and can't proceed without Jack's blessing, regardless.

As the version of Elephant in the Room Feat Tax rules we're using means that the archery feats I already have cover most of the Ranger Archery Style bonus Feats, instead of Taking the Archery style, what if I take the 2-Weapon style, and buy Archery Feats with my normal Feat progression?

This eliminates the effort that would be required to rework the bonus feat list in order to HAVE feats of value available as the character levels.

Means I lose Rapid Shot, for now, but, I'm okay with that.

What do you guys think?

---

And, no, this is NOT an attempt to take the armor! The goal will continue to be to stay primarily at range.


M Wood Olf | HP22/22 Healthy | AC16 F14 T12 CMD17 | F+3 R+7 W+1 | Init +4 | Perc+10+ SM+1 Stealth+9 Survival+6+ Ranger (Ilsurian Archer [Divine Marksman]) 2

And none of that matters, because I just remembered my archetype REQUIRES the Archery Combat Option. Actually, just came to me while I was ranting about some work stupidity.


Healthy Female Human (Flan) Fighter 2; HP 22/22; Grazed: 16; Wounded: 11; Critical: 5; DR: 1/- || AC 17 || T 12 || FF 15; Fort +4; Ref +2; Will +2; Init +2; Per +7; SM +2; Stealth +2; CMB +5; CMD 17; Spd 30 ft. Current AC 17/12/15; Hero Points: 4/4

I’m fine with whatever you want to do Hustonj. If that means stripping the archetype back then now is the time to do it.

And I’m happy to take the armor, but if Grond (or anyone else) really wants it speak up!


M Wood Olf | HP22/22 Healthy | AC16 F14 T12 CMD17 | F+3 R+7 W+1 | Init +4 | Perc+10+ SM+1 Stealth+9 Survival+6+ Ranger (Ilsurian Archer [Divine Marksman]) 2

Spent some time in the wee hours of this morning going over the Archery Feat Tree and the Archery Combat Style as modified by the portion of the Elephant in the Room Feat Tax rules incorporated into the campaign.

Yes, I did this specific to archery. I can do other specialties later if somebody wants, but I had cause to look here . . ..

The modified archery feat tree (with 3 tree external feats listed) looks like this:

Precise Shot - PBS - (PBS, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Improved Precise Shot included)
- Bullseye Shot - PBS; Precise Shot; BAB5
- Clustered Shots - PBS; Precise Shot; BAB6
- Focused Shot - Int13; Precise Shot
- Reckless Aim - PBS; Precise Shot
** Circuitous Shot - Dex19; Blind-Fight; Improved Precise Shot; Precise Shot; PBS; BAB11
*- Pinpoint Targeting - Improved Precise Shot; BAB16
*- Lob Shot - Far Shot; PBS
- Rapid Shot - Dex13; PBS - (Rapid Shot, Manyshot included)
-- Stabbing Shot - Rapid Shot; Elf
* Shot on the Run - Dex13; Mobility; PBS; BAB4 - (Shot on the Run, Parting Shot included)
-- Snap Shot - Dex13; PBS; Weapon Focus; BAB6 - (Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot, Greater Snap Shot included)
Deadly Aim - Dex13; BAB1 - Combat Option @ BAB3
Weapon Focus - BAB1
* Point-Blank Master - Weapon Specialization

[Note: # of icons represents dependence level in structure; 1 is available as soon as the parent is taken; 2 has additional requirements]
[Note: "-" indicates clear dependence. "*" indicates dependence on something not shown in this feat tree]

So, the Archery Combat Style offers 12 options for the 5 picks available to a Ranger. One of those is really a non-player, since the Crossbow Combat Style was created, but, that's not immediately significant.

MOST dedicated archery builds takes 1 of those 12 options at 1st level, working to get ahead of the curve. I certainly did. Switch-hitter designs won't do that.

Here are the 7 remaining Archery Combat Style options after the Elephant in the Room Feat Tax-based rules are applied:
2 - Focused Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
6 - Crossbow Mastery, Point-Blank Master
10 - Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run

My proposed Archery Combat Style feat list provides 9 options:
2 - Focused Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (bow type)
6 - Clustered Shots, Point-Blank Master, Snap Shot
10 - Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run

Just a relatively quick proposal. I've only spent about an hour looking over things trying to build this proposal, so I don't assume it is the perfect answer, just a spot to begin discussion from. I normally try to give rules alterations more time than that, to question my own motives and prejudices. I think my motives are pretty obvious in this case, though.

EDit: Nethys didn't update the Archery Combat Style past the core rulebook, but PFSRD20 has. <sigh> Updated fairly easily, actually. Character notes and build were all based on Nethys, of course.


M Wood Olf | HP22/22 Healthy | AC16 F14 T12 CMD17 | F+3 R+7 W+1 | Init +4 | Perc+10+ SM+1 Stealth+9 Survival+6+ Ranger (Ilsurian Archer [Divine Marksman]) 2

While looking over the above, I stumbled across a couple of feats I typically ignore.

1) Reckless Aim - Horrible Feat whose prerequisites are tougher than Deadly Aim and returns us to the days when shooting into melee could hit friendlies, though far more rarely.

We can continue ignoring this feat, or . . ..

We could make it a combat option with no prerequisites at all. Anybody who wants to perform a ranged attack into melee can, and can even take a bonus to hit to partially offset the non-Precise Shot penalty, but they gain a risk of hitting their companion.

2) Stabbing Shot - Bad niche feat that is far more flavor than useful, since Quickdraw is available earlier and allows for far more effective attacks . . .. Could be cute as a flavor choice, but, man . . ..

3) Elven Accuracy - Niche feat with limited lifespan since Improved Precise Strike provides this benefit and more to all comers, not just elves. Still caught my attention and got me to look at it again.


Male
Rabalar wrote:

As I was cooking last night, I had a thought. I'm looking for feedback, and can't proceed without Jack's blessing, regardless.

As the version of Elephant in the Room Feat Tax rules we're using means that the archery feats I already have cover most of the Ranger Archery Style bonus Feats, instead of Taking the Archery style, what if I take the 2-Weapon style, and buy Archery Feats with my normal Feat progression?

This eliminates the effort that would be required to rework the bonus feat list in order to HAVE feats of value available as the character levels.

Means I lose Rapid Shot, for now, but, I'm okay with that.

What do you guys think?

---

And, no, this is NOT an attempt to take the armor! The goal will continue to be to stay primarily at range.

I am always open to discuss stuff. Like I said before this is our game not mine.

Let me read through this. I think this is the most you have written in a long while so I am going to enjoy it for a few moments :)


Male
Narciso Virbaldi wrote:

This has been really fun reading, except for hearing that D'ogryn is leaving us.

I've been playing D&D since the 70's, and yes the "light treasure" games have been much more fun than the "Monty Haul" games. Only difference was one where the DM was much harder with the item identification rules, and included a lot of cursed stuff. Re-read the Identify spell and realize that a mage can only cast it twice a day if he has a good CON. (Only once per day after the first since the CON recovery takes 6 hours per point) AND. he has to "use" the item, which activates any curse on it, to identify it. AND it didn't really identify every little detail about the item.(like the exact pluses on it, or the remaining charges, etc. AND it can identify false information!

The high power "useless" treasures were also fun. Example: Getting a Robe of the Good Arch Magi, when our magi was neutral. Or the holy avenger when we didn't have a Paladin.... Wands of Trap Detection, when we had a really good thief. Etc.

The current method of using Spellcraft, etc. is much easier, if you happen to find something magical.

So, I'm really loving this game. D'ogryn, if you can come back, please do!

Yep, In D&D Identify and Detect Magic could be a bear if the DM plays them tough and you start mixing in cursed items. Not to mention that identify under D&D was an expensive spell due to the components required. Under PF with Spellcraft, Detect Magic, and Identify and how they work it is much easier to discern what an item does.


M Wood Olf | HP22/22 Healthy | AC16 F14 T12 CMD17 | F+3 R+7 W+1 | Init +4 | Perc+10+ SM+1 Stealth+9 Survival+6+ Ranger (Ilsurian Archer [Divine Marksman]) 2

Oh, and the archetype has had a HUGE impact on the game already, as it provided my Level 1 access to Bullseye Shot, which was a major player in Rab's effectiveness in a couple of key fights.

So, I really don't think swapping it out is story or mechanically appropriate.


Male

Hustonj,

Looking over this adjustment this appears to be a very fair adjustment based on the FEAT TAX reduction:

Ranger Combat Style (Archery)

Hustonj proposed Archery Combat Style feat list provides 9 options:
2 - Focused Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (bow type)
6 - Clustered Shots, Point-Blank Master, Snap Shot
10 - Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run

Reckless Aim

This is perfect example of a feat that should be an option...If everyone is in agreement we can turn this one into a combat option.

Reckless Aim (Combat Option)

Your lack of regard for others proves a boon when you fire projectiles into melee.

Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot.

Benefit: When you shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee, you can choose to take a –1 penalty to your AC and gain a +2 competence bonus on your attack roll. However, when you roll a natural 1 on a ranged attack roll made with this bonus, you automatically hit a random adjacent creature that threatens your intended target.

Stabbing Shot

This is a good example of a feat we need to blend into a current FEAT TAX feat. Let me suggest we add this into RAPID SHOT with these stipulations:

ELF/BAB+4 (this splits the RAPID SHOT and MANY SHOT requirement in the RAPID SHOT feat. So at BAB+4 an Elf with Rapid Shot would also get Stabbing Shot.) If thi is fair let me know.

Stabbing Shot (Combat)

You can clear the way to continue using your bow.

Prerequisites: Rapid Shot, elf.

Benefit: When adjacent to an opponent and making a full-attack action with a longbow or shortbow (including composite bows), you may choose to make a melee attack against that opponent with a drawn arrow rather than firing it. If the attack hits—whether or not it does damage—your target is pushed back 5 feet away from you. You can then fire arrows from your bow normally, at the original target, or at another target within range. This melee attack replaces the extra attack from Rapid Shot, and all of your attack rolls for the round (the melee attack and the ranged attacks) take a –2 penalty. If your initial attack leaves you with no enemies threatening you, you can make the subsequent ranged attack or attacks without provoking attacks of opportunity.

----Rapid Shot----

Rapid Shot - PBS/BAB +2
Stabbing Shot - Elf/BAB +4
Many SHot - BAB +6

Everyone agree we can make that change...

Elven Accuracy is a hard one...I take it you meant Improved Precise Shot not strike? I think we should leave this as is since with the Feat Tax reduction you could take this feat if you wanted it. The alternative is to blend this into Precise Shot with the requirements of ELF/BAB +5 (half of the IPS)... I do think that Elven Accuracy and IPS are different enough to actually complement each other especially in situations where you are firing at targets that conceal/covered. Especially against total cover/conceal...as IPS doesn't work but Elven Accuracy gives you a reroll on a miss chance. Would make your archer % of hit against those targets slightly higher.

We can discuss this one as a group.

If everyone is ok with these changes I can adjust the House Rules.

Jack


Male
Rabalar wrote:

Oh, and the archetype has had a HUGE impact on the game already, as it provided my Level 1 access to Bullseye Shot, which was a major player in Rab's effectiveness in a couple of key fights.

So, I really don't think swapping it out is story or mechanically appropriate.

I agree with you on that point. Rabalar is clearly the archer of party.


M Wood Olf | HP22/22 Healthy | AC16 F14 T12 CMD17 | F+3 R+7 W+1 | Init +4 | Perc+10+ SM+1 Stealth+9 Survival+6+ Ranger (Ilsurian Archer [Divine Marksman]) 2

For clarity: I was only proposing we do something with Reckless Aim! I was just commenting that I had noticed the others again because of what I was doing. And that they are really poor choices, honestly.

Wasn't asking to have them become part of anything else!


Race: Half-Orc | HP12/12 Healthy | AC20 (DR3/-) F18 T12, AC17 F12 T15 | F+5 R+3 W+3 | Init +2 | Intimid+3 Kn(Dung)+7 Kn (Nat)+4 Per+1 SM+1 Sur+4 Classes/Levels: Fighter 1

I have still to read it all, but my question is:

Why change this:

2 - Focused Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
6 - Crossbow Mastery, Point-Blank Master
10 - Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run

Into this:

2 - Focused Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (bow type)
6 - Clustered Shots, Point-Blank Master, Snap Shot
10 - Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run

I mean, what is the need? :D

At a first glance it seems like the Elephant in the Room Feat Tax rules are already giving a boon to most fighting styles, Archery included right? Why boost this even further by extra options for a ranger? Is it related to your Archetype somehow?


Male
Rabalar wrote:

For clarity: I was only proposing we do something with Reckless Aim! I was just commenting that I had noticed the others again because of what I was doing. And that they are really poor choices, honestly.

Wasn't asking to have them become part of anything else!

I know...but your points were valid and if we are making "fixes" might as well fix them :)

I can't stand how cumbersome they made feats...even with the baseline of 10 feats for every PC to 20 levels the FEAT TAX is cumbersome so any way we can mitigate that is a good thing.

Jack


Male
Grond Borg-Drautran wrote:

I have still to read it all, but my question is:

Why change this:

2 - Focused Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
6 - Crossbow Mastery, Point-Blank Master
10 - Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run

Into this:

2 - Focused Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (bow type)
6 - Clustered Shots, Point-Blank Master, Snap Shot
10 - Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run

I mean, what is the need? :D

At a first glance it seems like the Elephant in the Room Feat Tax rules are already giving a boon to most fighting styles, Archery included right? Why boost this even further by extra options for a ranger? Is it related to your Archetype somehow?

The basic need for the change is due to the FEAT TAX House Rule and the changes I made (and the group made) alters what additional feats you gain from having the Combat Styles.

For example under Archery

Once you take Precise Shot you have PBS, Precise Shot, Far Shot and Improved Precise Shot you just have to meet the requirements as you advance.

That means under Archery you already achieve PBS and PS with one feat and at BAB +3 you get Far Shot. Which only leaves Focused Shot and Rapid Shot at the starting stage of that Combat Style. So I get that making additions to each combat style based on changes made to the feats will need to happen.

We are not using Elephant in the Room Feat Tax but a House Rule version that consolidates some of the feats so that once you take the Initial Feat you gain the other feats as you advance in level and meet the requirements.

Jack


M Wood Olf | HP22/22 Healthy | AC16 F14 T12 CMD17 | F+3 R+7 W+1 | Init +4 | Perc+10+ SM+1 Stealth+9 Survival+6+ Ranger (Ilsurian Archer [Divine Marksman]) 2

Absolutely, the EitR rules (adjusted or not) are a boon designed to counteract the explosion of niche feats that kept whittling away at combat power by creating rules that defined things as NOT doable with the existing feats. Did you miss the fact they made combat feats to replace non-combat skill checks? That there are at least 3 feat chains for moving your enemy? Creating rules crunch to help drive book sales ends up breaking the system design, eventually. Too many options compared to the number you can select is a symptom of a system balance break.

The root of my concern was hidden once I stumbled on the fact the official website (Nethys) hadn't updated the Combat Style from the Core book, despite having the other material on the site. Working with the material JUST in the core book, the EITR mods left ONLY 5 options for selection (Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Crossbow Mastery, Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run), one of which (crossbow mastery) makes no sense for an archery specialist.

I wrote the entire thing without seeing the modified list, and then went back and edited the post to include those adjustments after I facepalmed.

With the expanded list, diluted by the EitR mods, there are 6 options which make any sense, and one of those was taken at 1st level, so there are no options left, other than order of selection. The point is to create options.

"Not necessary" is an excellent discussion point, and deserves consideration.

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