Hey guys, Jehova checking in. Crushy workload Friday through the end of today [we're presenting in NYC before investors tomorrow :O]. I apologize for the delay and assure you that we will soon return to our regularly scheduled carnage.
I am glad to wait till then
Me too
Practice Fight: Eko vs. Gin
There ya go. :)
thanks choon
Sorry was preoccupied
Hey guys, Jehova checking in. Crushy workload Friday through the end of today [we're presenting in NYC before investors tomorrow :O]. I apologize for the delay and assure you that we will soon return to our regularly scheduled carnage.
Cool. Good luck at the big pres-y. Make sure to break a leg.
or blow their hair back or whatever it is you do. :)
It's 3rd season btw ;)... flies right over Eben's head. (What?)
It's THE third season!
The Game of Thrones is on :)
Is it weird that I want to make a gladiator who's a big fat gunslinger whose name is "Big Fat Gunslinger"?
Working on a submission, and I have a question. How is arcane bond handled? I know item creation feats are banned, but arcane bond lets you enchant your bonded item as though you had the appropriate feat. Is that particular function of arcane bond disallowed, or could i say, arcane bond a weapon and enchant it for half price? ;)
Nope. Full price to enhance/enchant it.
HRM so arcane bond is alot more gimped for items.. even the PFS version can at least do that...
It is reduced, but only as much as any other class ability that got nerfed because it allowed purchase of custom magic gear at half- price.
Besides, you're still getting the benefit of a spontaneously-chosen free spell slot of any spell level on a prepared caster's impressive list of spells known. That's better than having a free Pearl of Power of max level.
Its not free, because you cant cast without it reliably.. at all and a familiar would get you extra actions. Especially a improved familiar. No other ability got nerfed even in PFS you got the ability with SPECIFICALLY your arcane bond to do that because if you EVER lose it, your not casting.. Which you can safely not lose in the arena because you have a familiar but will often come up if you have an item.. Via, Sunder/ Disarm/ Steal/ Etc. I assume you nerfed the Black Blade as well?
In the context of price (which was what I was addressing), yes, it is free.
I understand that the Arcane Bond has some restrictive draw-backs. I didn't say or suggest otherwise. The question was whether an Arcane Bond Item should be allowed to be modified as per the Magic Item Creation rules despite the Arena's ban on crafting magic items. I believe Jehova has already ruled on this (with a "no", they're not allowed to do so), and I agree with that ruling.
As to the restrictive nature of Arcane Bond items, I understand and don't like that aspect of the option, but that's how it was written. And furthermore, it seems fairly obvious that was the intention. So it would require a house-rule against RAI to remove that limitation.
It also begs the question of "does this make the arcane bond item useless?" which you basically alluded to in your post. Again, I would say no. It has a number of weaknesses (sundering, disarming, etc… like you mentioned), but weaknesses are not the same as uselessness. First of all, your opponent has to be able to determine what item is your Bonded Item to do target it at all. Is it your ring? Your amulet? Your weapon? I'm guessing the barbarian doesn't have many ways of making that determination. Your magus opponent has some tools to make that determination (I'm assuming Arcane Bond Items ping under Detect Magic), but then he's wasting rounds casting Detect Magic to find your weak spot while you unload arcane hell on him… seems like a losing strategy to me. Secondarily, if you're a bit clever with your choice of Arcane Bond Item (say, a spiked gauntlet), it can't be stolen, disarmed, or removed from your person mechanically in combat. It can only be sundered, and but only through destroying it (the broken condition does nothing to an Arcane Bond Item's spell-casting qualities that i can tell) does it become useless to the caster.
So, like I said, I don't personally like the Arcane Bonded Item as an option for my characters (I've never used an Arcane Bond item on any of my characters without some house-ruling from the GM to loosen those restrictions), but the Arcane Bond Item is far from useless even with those restrictions.
And yes, as long as it's in play (held, worn, and not destroyed), I still maintain that it's the equivalent of a Pearl of Power of max level – but with the freedom to use any spell in your expansive spell-book – and you get it without paying any gold.
As to the Black Blade, I don't think it's been discussed. But given that it's basically a free, unbreakable, pre-enchanted version of whatever weapon the magus (a predominantly martial class) is using in combat, I'd suggest it be banned as well.
But ultimately that's up to Jehova.
Also, this isn't PFS. Some of PFS's mechanics were pulled, but the purpose and execution of this arena are not the same as PFS play.
I tend to agree that you should be able to enchant item bonds. Familiars are just that much more powerful already (unless you plan on multiclassing).
I'm actually not really interested in trying to create parity between different class features within one class for this arena.
I'm more interested in creating parity between different combatant submissions, and one of the quickest way of getting more powerful in PF is by having more magic items. And getting to "craft" Bonded Items at 1/2 price makes a person's gold go further which means more magic items they can walk into the arena with.
There's a slew of other class options that are likewise undesirable or underpowered in this arena setting. I'm fine with that.
Wow.. that last post sounded arrogant. Obviously that decision is up to Jehova... who may completely agree with you guys.
Sorry for the tone. It wasn't intended.
Issue with your premise is that You assume magic items are all that makes up power its being a spell-caster PERIOD. If you wanted to argue that it would be too much to allow it then you are arguing there shouldnt be synths because the get stats for free.. there shouldnt be Druids because the gets stat boosting for free.. and a pet... Loot is one of the few things that makes little difference when it come to overall power and the effects that said loot gives is often overshadowed or usurped even with this rule.
But as you say it is up to Jehova, but I know the numbers and Familiar>> 1/2 on one Item.. especially if that Item is a weapon, because you have to WIELD it to cast.. not hold.. not have on person.. actively be able to use it. That is why Two handed weapon arcane bonds were a major issue.
Issue with your premise is that You assume magic items are all that makes up power its being a spell-caster PERIOD.
Did I say that? If so, I certainly didn't intend it that way. What I said was...
I'm more interested in creating parity between different combatant submissions, and one of the quickest way of getting more powerful in PF is by having more magic items. And getting to "craft" Bonded Items at 1/2 price makes a person's gold go further which means more magic items they can walk into the arena with.
More (and more powerful) magic items is ONE of the ways, not the only way. And yes, you're right, playing a spell-caster is also one of the quickest ways to gain power in PF. But in my mind, thats neither here nor there.
We were specifically talking about whether a wizard/magus/arcane sorcerer (or whoever else can get the class ability) is an exception to the Arena's "No crafting" policy when it comes to thier Arcane Bond Item.
The decision to ban magic crafting (or all crafting, really) was made around controlling effective wealth levels in the arena to help normalize character's power levels… not in response to any one class's abilities.
It's why Alchemists don't get Brew Potion. It's why Wizards don't get Scribe Scroll and can't take crafting feats as their bonus feats. And so on.
Loot is one of the few things that makes little difference when it come to overall power and the effects that said loot gives is often overshadowed or usurped even with this rule.
Do you really believe loot makes little difference?
Stat boosts, save boosts, speed enhancements, skill boosts, one-off spell-abilities, bypassing DR's, weapon abilities, Metamagic rods, Pearls of Power… not to mention all the gear that straight up give you a set of tactical options you didn't have before (hello, boots of flying).
It may not seem like loot makes a huge difference at level 3, but that stuff adds up fast as levels increase. A character's ability to begin creating magic items for 1/2 price or – more specific to the issue at hand – have one item that is well beyond the like-items of their competitors at the same level really begins to disrupt power levels between different competitors.
But I know the numbers, and Familiar >> 1/2 on one Item.. especially if that Item is a weapon, because you have to WIELD it to cast.. not hold.. not have on person.. actively be able to use it. That is why Two handed weapon arcane bonds were a major issue.
Again, I'm not arguing about the merits of choosing a Familiar vs. the value of creating/customiizing a Bonded Item at 1/2 price. Again, that's not the point.
The point is whether it's fair – given the fact that Jehova has (rightfully) removed crafting from this game for power-equality reasons – to allow classes with access to 1/2 crafting price for one specific weapon or item.
I think the answer to this (as well as the question of the Black Blade – thought that is slightly different) is that it is, in fact, unfair for this one class feature to allow crafting of cheaper custom-made items when the rest of them have been out-lawed.
And just for clarity:
If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell.
"Worn or in-hand" are the key words, unless you can point me to where it's said that it has to be "wielded", because that's a different thing. A staff only needs to be in-hand. A Greatsword bonded item only needs to be in-hand. Both of these, to me, only suggest one hand. Not that it makes a big difference, but it is worth noting.
Wizards who select a bonded object begin play with one at no cost. Objects that are the subject of an arcane bond must fall into one of the following categories: amulet, ring, staff, wand, or weapon. These objects are always masterwork quality. Weapons acquired at 1st level are not made of any special material. If the object is an amulet or ring, it must be worn to have effect, while staves, wands, and weapons must be wielded. If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell. The DC for this check is equal to 20 + the spell's level. If the object is a ring or amulet, it occupies the ring or neck slot accordingly.
It says worn to HAVE effect..or Wielded.. thus if your weapon is more than one handed your eating a concentration.
Well, there you go. Not sure how i missed that. Good to know.
So what's the frustration around that? What character unnecessarily is victimized by this? It's not a loaded question, I'm genuinely curious.
I would suggest the problem with the Bonded Item is that when you don't have it with you (or it's destroyed) you're forced to make Concentration checks.
How is it unfairly restrictive if you – as the character – choose a 2-handed weapon as your bonded item? Switching hands (from 1-handed to 2-handed grip) is a free action, so I can only imagine being forced to make that concentration check if I ended my turn with the Bonded Item in 1 hand and had an opportunity to cast a spell as an immediate action (like Featherfall).
What am I missing?
But let me also say, "so what?" in the context of the current discussion. Bonded Item isn't ideal; most people agree on this. But it's not because of the 1/2 crafting price thing... it's this whole concentration check issue... which is not what we were talking about.
You can still choose either option, one is just generally considered stronger for this Arena scenario.
I don't think making an exception to the no crafting rule for bonded items (and their likes) breaks anything, so I'd say allow it. But I would allow mundane crafting too.
@ Eko vs Gin fight:
I am Zouh..come and face me, one soul to another
Yes, you can only delay the action you have.
If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Ahh thank you for clearing that up for me
I guess archers and Gunslingers would appreciate mundane crafting, huh?
@ Spock: I think Jehova mentioned earlier that as far as could be told, delaying into the regular round does allow for all of your actions, as normal. The rule you quoted only really says that your initiative moves to its new spot and you don't get a turn at the point where you would have had it before.
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act.
I think you just delay your action. I don't see why you would get a full round action instead of a surprise round action of you delay a surprise round action. It would also mean you could circumvent the staggered condition that way. Seems a little shady to me.
How would it bypass the staggered condition, unless you actually delayed until the staggered condition was gone?
And I'm not really sure what part of that quote would suggest you retain the same actions that you had before. By saying 'you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act,' I would actually read it as saying you take no actions (regardless of how many you have) and then act as would be 'normal' at your new initiative count (whenever you stop delaying). If it worked like taking a snapshot of your available actions, and bringing them forward to your new initiative, I would actually consider that to be a very odd way for it to work.
Edit: Changed wording.
I meant you could circumvent the last round of the staggered condition (by delaying it out).
And I'm not really sure what part of that quote would suggest you retain the same actions that you had before.
When reading "act normally" I understand "act like you had not delayed".
You essentially try to use the delay action to pull off an action earlier then you would normally be able to. I can see your point but this sounds paradox to me...
[edit]To give a concrete scenario: Gladiator A and B fight. A wins initiative and starts a full round action. B delays and charge-splats. Now B essentially circumvented loosing initiative by using the delay action. I don't think this should be allowed and I don't think it is.
I've some questions about wizards scribing spells: In PFS season 0 there was a rule that you had to buy a scroll of the spell (even if you found one). In season 1 this is no longer necessary. Since I could in any case buy any scroll and sell it later on, can I just use the prices stated in the SRD (under Magic: Spell level and writing cost)?
Can I sell my spellbook, buy a new one, and make money from unneeded 0 level spells/useless bonus spells (I think I shouldn't btw ;D)?
I found another oddity in the consumable, refunds, etc rules: We already talked about partially charged wands and ammo stacks. But what happens if I buy a stack of +1 arrows, shoot a few and sell the remaining ones? Does this mean I never get refunds for wands/stacks? If I have enough refunds to manage a wand, do I get the wand refunded, keeping the partially charged wand after combat?
Suggestion to solve this: You always have to buy full stacks/fully charged wands etc. and you always have to refill them after combat. But you get the charges/shots used refunded (if within your limits). That way those items do not present cheap alternatives for scrolls/enchanted ranged weapons while still remaining usable. Maybe make them not count vs. the consumable limit, it would be too limiting on those items imho.
@ arcane bonds: Under the current rules, you may not enchant your arcane bond for any cheaper than any player enchanting any other item. Let me explain my reasoning here, and we can discuss if it makes sense.
Magic weapons are one of the most expensive options for purchase in pathfinder, and some of the absolute most effective in combat. They can singlehandedly make up for a lack of base attack bonus and provide many other powerful effects. In an arena scenario, when players have no limit on the amount they can spend on a weapon, and have no reason to buy items to be prepared for out of combat situations, magic weapons only increase in value. With absolutely no other crafting allowed, being able to enchant weapons for half price is very powerful, and can singlehandedly patch up some of a wizard or sorcerer's weaknesses. At seventh level, a wizard with an arcane bond (remember wizards also need spend less on armor etc) can have a +5 weapon, compared to a max of +3 for a fighter, putting them only off by two in terms of attack bonus, while retaining spells etc. This is also a savings of 25,000 gp, nearly the full amount that anyone of the level has to work with. In addition to this, the wizard gets the item itself, and a masterwork version, for completely free. If crafting for bonds was allowed, at third level anyone who dipped a level of wizard could have a +1 double hackbutt to true strike while wearing +1 full plate and have 950 gp to spare. The same character without such a dip would have had to shell out 8,650 for the same gear, which just gets silly. Keep in mind that this is still possible, just without the enchantments. I don't think arcane bond is a particularly underwhelming ability, but if you feel it is then don't take it. Also, the Arcane Duelist's bond still allows him to cast with somatic components while wielding it, so without arcane bond it's hard to do that whole casting in breastplate with a large shield thing, which is really cool.
One note, however. The gunsmithing feat, as in PFS, does allow one to purchase firearm ammo for half price (you know how to sweet talk bullet sellers by knowing about guns, I guess).
@ delaying in surprise rounds: I'll post this again. It's an answer to this question from Skip Williams, (wrote many of the 3rd edition rules). The reason this is weird in the arena is that there are two combatants, completely aware of one another, yet both in a surprise round (this can happen in normal play, but requires at least one unaware combatant). Under the rules as they are, Spock's example of gladiators A and B could occur, but it doesn't seem like such a terrible scenario to me. Keep in mind that this means a spellcaster stood in the open and started casting a spell against an opponent who had a means of charging and splatting him. The caster could have done any of the following or more: a) go behind a pillar, b) ready an action to take a 5-ft. step out of the way and do something, c) delay his own initiative into a full-action round giving him time to to both go behind a pillar and begin casting on the same round, d) cast a spell with a standard action casting time (like grease). Yes, the player who goes second will be able to see what their opponent is doing and react to it. If this seems like an advantage, keep in mind that the winner of initiative may decide either to act or to delay and respond, whereas the loser may only respond.
@ consumables: I had imagined characters needing to shell out for items as they are listed, meaning only full wands/stacks, but being able to both sell back partially empty wands or partially used stacks of arrows for their full (percentage of) price. In addition to this, any charges used from the wand would be refunded so long as (charges used)*(wand price/50) is less than the refunded consumables limit.
Any idea when this is going live Jehova? :)
And secondarily, should we ban the Bladebound magus archetype as well, given that restriction.
It's not really "crafted", but it's probably more of an offender because it's straight-up free.
Rolg is resubmitted. All tweaked and amped for some crazy-awesome combat!
So far it looks like:
mbauers--Shigeharu
eben theQuiet -- Rolg the Red
Kurama314 – Vatale
Endoralis—Gin Kyomaru
Llaelian—Liane
Captain Cortez—Vironus Antilles
Choon—Bruno (still working)
Avenath—Eko or Zouh?
Darkwolf117--??
SpoCk0nd0pe--??
dbauers--??
Did I miss any? What happens if we end up with an odd number of fighters? 3 way death match, or bye?
My assumption has been that we are going to be matched up more or less regularly. So if there's an odd person out, they just wait until one of the other fighters is free, and then get paired up. Of course, that's just my guesswork. I could be wrong.
Also, I'll be submitting Kailin first I think, I just haven't yet. Partly since the full arena has not been set up yet, and partly because I'm fairly lazy. I think I might have him ready later tonight though, and if so, I suppose I can submit him before the arena actually goes up.
Im still working on a couple of builds.
Zouh for now, Eko requires some work
If this is the case, Then even without the crafting rules.. A wizard with one dip CANt enchant thier weapon unless they gain another Caster level of at least 5 outside of wizard.. Magus as far as this game is concerned at level 7 would have that SAME +5 weapon ( Well level 6 but I'll use 7 to prove a point). But Whatever.. The arena purposely would have gimped Ideas and YES arcane bond is gimped with all the other anti-wizard ruling, but thats fine. I'm going to do it anyway, but I just get screwed a bit. If it becomes and horribly obvious Gimp I'll just Show the difference with a different class as a living example.
Durgrosh reporting in with the crazy eyes. Imimrtl's submission.
My Colosseum of the Gods has gone Live. Though it is on Roleplay Market not on here. Though there is a Recruitment Thread here.
What is that?
What is which?
Colosseum of the Gods is the Second Arena I was planning.
Roleplay Market is another site for gameplay. Though they seem to be having Server issues right now. Which is rare.
So you have a link to the recruitment? And this us the 20 level one? I thought that was shutting down.
It is a Level 2 Starting Level. I have it set up to where you get Experience as normal. You also get VP/Reputation that can be used to get Consumables. But I am not as forgiving with Consumables. Once you use them they are gone.
bump?
so is this whole thing kinda dead in the water?
I'm assuming Jehova is busy with work/life right now. Question--are all the rules finalized? If all the rules are finalized and Jehova needs some help, I'd be willing to randomize the first round of matches. I'd just need to know who all submitted what character. I could use an online dice roller and email the results to Eben or something.
I'd also be willing to help arbitrate some matches, if more than one arbiter would help ease the workload.
I'm fine with waiting too, but if it's just administrative stuff that needs to get done and Jehova wants some help, I'm sure a few of us would be willing to do so.