Haha, we'll see. I think this'd be good for my more straight-forward character, since we're mainly testing out stealth mechanics for ya. I'll see how my own tricky fellow works in a bit.
Ahh, curb-stomping. Favorite pastime of all true Arena fans. :)
Alright, thank you guys for all of this controversy, it's a good way to make a better rules system! When I made the arena (which was fairly last minute), I anticipated the charging problem, and added the pillars and surprise round to help solve that. I hadn't, however, taken into consideration the fact that a mounted character could conceivably close the entire distance with a standard-action charge during their surprise round action. I don't think that should be allowed, but I am also somewhat unwilling to make the starting places much further apart, as I very much want melee to be a relevant combat style (it's an arena, dammit), and having combatants start 100 ft. apart gives a serious advantage to casters and archers. I propose, as a fix for now, that nobody may start mounted. If they have a mount, it may begin adjacent to them, as a normal animal companion would, and if they wish to ride it they'll need to mount it during combat. This would require moving the pillars each 5 ft. closer to the far side of the arena, I believe, to accommodate the spacing for large mounts. A DC 20 ride check allows mounting as a free action, but this will only make a surprise round charge possible by a small character with a medium mount, since the charge line for a large mount (from its starting square) will be interrupted by a pillar. This is a simple rules change that for the most part prevents charging as a surprise round action, but doesn't completely screw over all mounted characters (there's also now an advantage to being a small mounted character over a larger one, which is cool).
This is the new arena, which we'll be using for the next few fights, I don't think it will change very much, but please voice any concerns.
The next fight will be between Tommy Two Times and Azander Blanche, and can be found here.
Excellent. And Tommy's posted up.
These changes sound completely fair and beneficial. I won't mind using my surprise round to mount up (or mount up and move if I make the check).
Good to hear about all the changes! I'll move into the combat thread momentarily.
Oh hell, now I want make an alias as "Warrior of the Dark Wolf." *facepalm*
That would be an odd matchup.
Thanks, Choon, I'm sorry it does cramp your character a bit. Also thanks for having built a camel-rider during the testing phase, this would have been a rough change to make in the middle of the real arena.
I should note that if a character like Bruno makes his ride check to mount as a free action and then moves between the pillars, he can still charge his opponent before they ever get a real turn, but this will only happen if he wins initiative, succeeds a DC 20 ride check, and his opponent (after seeing him mount up and get into charging position) doesn't move out of the way with their surprise round action. That seems fair enough.
It should be "Warrior of the Black Wolf". & strangely fits my Scottish Clan...
That would be more diametrically opposed, I admit. Unfortunately, 'Dark' is the operative color/adjective of my name :/
Well, I doubt I'll do it anyway, but it just seems unusually fitting.
That was rough, Azaelas, the dice were not with you during that one.
Also, if you and Choon are cool with your current characters/want to keep battling, I can toss you two in together, try out the new mounted thing.
I am wanting to do a little switch up on him.
I am thinking instead of quickdraw I will be taking Weapon Focus(X) if that is okay.
I also am going to be switching up his shield to a standard Heavy Shield with some Thrown Weapons for opening attacks. Also trading the Gladius for some other weapons.
Kyrian does seem to have a fair bit of luck in this arena so far.
So, before I put him back into the queue, I'm gonna do a change in spells, and I suppose I've got some cash to spend? I'm not honestly sure what I would buy, as I was already having some left over cash from 200 but...
Ha, thanks for the love of my gladiator alias. Honestly, I grabbed it because the moniker I use for my main profile here--Loup Blanc--literally translates to "White Wolf" in French.
And IRL, my middle name is Wolf and my last name is LeBlanc--again, "the white wolf" being a literal (if bilingual) translation.
I noticed the translation from Loup Blanc made it fit.
Interesting note about the real name comparison though. Clever naming trickery all over the place, huh? :P
Azaelas, that's fine, since you had mentioned the swap before combat, keep in mind that from this point forward (and especially in the real arena), changing anything besides items, without a specific class allowance, is not allowed.
Loup, congrats on your badass name, I feel like most first names are pretty cool when followed 'Wolf LeBlanc".
Wow! This looks fun, may I make me a monkey monk?
Loup, congrats on your badass name, I feel like most first names are pretty cool when followed 'Wolf LeBlanc".
Haha, you'd be surprised. Let's just say that my name is really a mash of three different nationalities, and while Wolf LeBlanc works pretty well, my first name isn't exactly conducive to the image.
@ Visage, Vanara are allowed, so yes, yes you may. You may not want to explicitly state your class, but it probably won't end up being a big deal :P
Also keep in mind that this is just the testing period. The arena will probably go up on February 1st, but if we encounter some really problematic stuff, I'll take however long I need to make it work. When that happens I will be requiring a new stat block submission from everyone (I'm going to be going over them much more closely for the real thing), and any accumulated VP and wealth will go away. Anyone who wants to join in and try out the system in the next week is still welcome to play, just keep in mind your advancement won't carry over.
He's gonna show up in the arena with no armor, and then not cast spells. I think everyone'll know. :P
Hey, I learned something today (I thought they were both spelled discrete).
This... I don't even... XD
I'm good to go any time you want me, Arena Master. :)
@ Darkwolf, they're cool words, pronounced the same and from the same root, but mean different things :O
They're from the latin discretus, which means 'separate' but is actually the past participle of discernere, which means 'to discern', so discretus really means separate as in discerned, which totally makes sense because discerning -> careful -> discreet, but also discerned -> differentiated -> discrete. Maaaan words are so cool.
Also, I can't tell you exactly what Tommy is doing for initiative, but for perspective, an elven diviner level 1 can have an initiative of +16 (+5 dex, +4 improved initiative, +2 reactionary, +4 familiar bonus, +1 diviner bonus), which could conceivably be a 36.
If it's not out of line, I'd love to know how that initiative is even done at first level. Especially as a halfling. I'm with you, Darkwolf--I'm aghast and a ghoul at that result.
Amarkys is going to be updated by tomorrow night.
If it's not out of line, I'd love to know how that initiative is even done at first level. Especially as a halfling. I'm with you, Darkwolf--I'm aghast and a ghoul at that result.
I think I might actually have an idea on how it's possible at least, but I don't really want to theorize/discuss someone's build. Still... that's certainly interesting.
@ Jehova: And yes, words are cool :P
Edit: Also, I think Kyrian's ready to go back in the lineup.
Alright Amarkys, I'm going to go ahead and put up your next fight now then, just make sure to PM me your gear swap info before posting in it.
It will probably be around tomorrow afternoon as I figure out how to use PCGen to make the changes work.
If it's not out of line, I'd love to know how that initiative is even done at first level. Especially as a halfling. I'm with you, Darkwolf--I'm aghast and a ghoul at that result.
Hey now! Come on... a girl's gotta keep some secrets, right?
Let's see how this fight shapes up. If enough of my hand is forced, I'll reveal some details. A stealthy character has to rely on subterfuge, after all. :)
Well, I hear it's legit, so I'm good with that. I just found it to be... very surprising.
MORE LIKE VERY SURPRISE ROUNDING
MORE LIKE VERY SURPRISE ROUNDING
MORE LIKE VERY SURPRISE ROUNDINGUh huh...
Eek...
So... friday, huh?
I now have a Stat Block in my Alias in a Spoiler.
I am trusting people. Not like it matters though.
Friday is a hella malleable start date, as of now we're encountering about one big question a day, and until I'm pretty confident we have that sort o' thing sorted out, I won't put up the official campaign page. Speaking of which... more questions! I can figure stuff out, but any input is always appreciated.
Does the usage of spoilered rolls and actions seem to be working so far? Any problems you see with this method? I like the visible attacks being only spoilered, not PMed, as that would slow things way down, and in general people can see how skillfully someone is lunging at them. Would it be helpful to put down some sort of rules (or at least guidelines) to differentiate from what should be spoilered as opposed to PMed? Until this point people seem to choose which they do based on how secret it is (Tommy ducked behind a pillar and PMed actions, whereas hidden actions that Kyrian took while standing in the open were simply spoilered), and this has seemed to work, allowing players to be as vague as they want to be in their spoilers, since there is always the possibility that someone will look into the spoily box. I'd prefer to have zero out-of-character information ever even able to be conveyed, but that may be an unrealistic goal, and at some point one needs to trust one's players, PvP or not.
A second area of strangitude is the question of what people watching the fight can see. Obviously the fights need to be observable, but sometimes people watching would have more information than those involved, such as if there's a pillar between the fighters. I think that when someone takes an action that would be easily observable to any one of the generic people in the audience, it is considered to be obvious information for anyone who at any point examines the fight. This would probably take the form of a spoiler box labeled 'audience and arbiter only', or 'not for [Opponent Name]', and would allow an observer to have more of an idea of what's apparently going on. Since this is for the entire audience, there is no having cover, though magical concealment, darkness, or burrowing into the ground would not allow anyone watching the fight to see what you're doing. It would be assumed that the events in the arena are recorded, so that anyone could find out what had happened in the fight. Doing this would also allow someone who had been in a combat, and was unable to see an opponent's action, to go back and look at the fight from the observer standpoint once he or she has finished the bout, seeing what was going on behind the pillar, for example. In addition, this provides an in-game explanation for each combatant having full information about how each fight so far has gone, even if they just joined the arena. This would obviously be somewhat condensed and added to the final rules.
I just finally had the chance to catch up on this thread (skimming, mostly). I'm left with one question:
Why is there a surprise round at all? Both characters are going into the arena expecting to fight. If you do start out of sight of each other, there's the potential for being surprised, but not a surprise round, per se.
I think it is more of who ever reacts first gets the advantage.
I believe the point of the surprise round is limited buffing or tactical maneuvering. I think it's an interesting idea.
@ Bobson: My understanding is to make it a bit more even between players. Rather than having a full turn to fight before your opponent gets a chance to move, you instead only get one action, so that opponents won't wipe the floor with their adversaries before they get to do anything (not that it has prevented that from happening in the right scenarios).
@ Jehova: I think I'd be happy with doing most of the actions your opponent shouldn't know in spoilered rolls, but letting the audience see what's going on. This would probably need to take some actual conventions such as 'GM Only' and 'Audience Only,' while if it's obvious that all the spectators and combatants can see what's going on, then no spoilers would be needed (as has been done for the most part).
I think that sounds like a fine way to do things, assuming we can trust our opponents not to cheat, but so far it seems like everyone's been good on that. (Though I suppose it's hard to tell, per se XP )
I like the idea that people can go back and look over their previous matches to see what their opponent was doing while they were unaware of them. And... just as a side note, I feel like keeping a ton of actions within PM's is going to get messy as hell, but YMMV on that.
I agree on the messy as hell thing, especially if it is always just me doing the Arbitrating, and we end up with several active fights at once, and if anyone has ideas on that, please let me know.
AVOID PM ACTIONS LIKE THE PLAGUE!
I tried it in the AotG it is a major PitA.
If people respect spoilers, in fine doing it that way, too. It still relies on DM arbitration, but at least it's all in one place.
I'm happy to finish this fight out this way, though. Maybe I'll change my mind.
I'm also respectful of the spoiler. I kind of like the element of surprise that this PvP brings, and I'd rather not know exactly what the enemy is doing in combat.
I just had an idea, though it's a bit odd. It keeps the fully private aspect of PMs while making sure the information stays in the combat thread where it can be easily dealt with in the context of that specific battle, and found easily through the thread opposed to clunking through an inbox. There are several places online, such as here and here, that allow people to encrypt text, which someone else with the appropriate key can then decrypt. If we used this, each player (not character) would have a key (sent along with their character's stat block) with which they would encrypt their clandestine actions and place in a spoiler in the combat thread. I would keep the keys for the current combatants handy, and simply decrypt the actions in order to respond to them. Since combatants would never have to receive any secret messages (if I absolutely need to respond secretively I would still PM, spoilers for more vague responses), they would only need to know their personal key. I've tried both of the above sites, and they really are a fairly simple copy/paste job, no wait times or the like, but it is an extra step to posting. My thinking is that it may actually take less time for me than going through my (sometimes slow to load) inbox, as well as keeping the information within a thread, and leaving my PMs open for rules questions and character blocks.
This may just be too much of an extra thing to add to the arena, but let me know what you think.
Sounds neat, and it would definitely stop anyone from being able to easily decipher what their opponent is doing. I honestly think it's a bit too much, though: there needs to be a level of trust involved, and if it becomes apparent that someone's cheating, you could always boot them from the arena.
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Ya. I feel like encrypting actions will put people off once the arena goes live. We need to encourage a culture of trust here, in my opinion. That will not only protect character secrets, but also encourage a general culture of fun. If we go too far along the secrecy road I fear we may over-emphasize competition and then loose some of the friendly fun.
Just my 2 cp.
I won't say no to the encryption deal if general consensus is to go for it.
It does seem like it might be unnecessary though. I'd say so far spoilers have been doing well, and it seems like it would make things a bit more complicated.
So, I'm personally thinking it sounds like a bit much, but we're in the testing phase for a reason. So, if we just want to try them out and see what happens, we can always decide after some real practice whether they're worth using or not.
Using secret codes is not my plan as of now, but I am looking into all kinds of possibilities. I want an easy way to communicate brief but important messages (like 'the spell I'm casting is mage armor') with no possibility of the opponent just peeking a bit and then thinking 'oh, I won't power attack then' as a result. As a result of peeking even being possibility, an argument could occur where the wizard's player says "how come you didn't power attack? You did against the last guy." And the fighter, who didn't actually peek, and just thought he wouldn't bother with PA against a caster he could knock out in one hit anyways, is suddenly being accused of cheating, with no way to prove his innocence. The possibility of this, to me, seems like more of a problem than players actually using the hidden information to their advantage in combat, since PvP in my experience tends to make players more competitive than a usual campaign, and everyone will want to make absolute sure that they are not losing for any reason other than being outplayed (or bad dice rolls). I'm not saying this would happen, and these boards are very respectful compared to most of the internet, but I still feel that removing the possibility is the best way to prevent inter-player conflict in a situation where their in-game goals are to brutally slaughter one another. If I want to open a campaign to literally anyone who wants to play, I need to prepare for anyone who is going to join. All of that said, spoilers may be the most workable way to do this, and I'll just need to trust in everyone's ability to trust one another :P
Another possible idea, without having to use other websites, is to set up a list of common actions your character may wish to take that shouldn't be directly communicated to the opponent, PM the list to the arbiter, and then reference it in spoiler tags, communicating what you're doing, but not to anyone without knowledge of your pre-planned actions.