I'm up for another fight with Rolg. Against whomever, really.
I'll put some thoughts together on the other discussion points that have been tossed around.
I will probably being altering my equipment and maybe drop a useless feat...
If that is ok with Jehova.
So, for the time being, can Rolg spend his victory money before the next match?
From my understanding, we can't go below 200. I'm not sure we've established if we're getting money yet for these practice rounds anyway though, since we might want to hold off until actual level up, as I understand it?
Something that I would like to bring up: How should we post actions? For the most part, me and Azaelas are posting in the thread, and simply spoilering things, and that seems to be working well. But, I'm wondering how it'll end up when we get some people who need to keep their actions to PM's and such.
Just kind of curious if we want to get clear rules for it, or keep the sort of freeform style, so people can just do what works best for them.
My understanding was that the victor receives the money per win. If it was intended to be used/gained when they level up, why not simply have them receive the money when they level up.
I like the idea that gear can be purchased whenever, as it allows for incremental gear upgrades if the gladiator should choose to do so.
It does create some imbalance between equal level characters of differing arena records, but i think that's interesting.
It also means people who use consumables can try to stay stocked. Like Rolg.
Well, I'm just going by what Jehova was musing over, back here. I'm not sure if there was a concrete decision about it yet.
Yep. And given that this whole game (at this point) is a test, I'm just offering my perspective on the question at hand. I respect Jehova's right to listen to it, ignore it, or implement it – as he/she sees fit.
Let me put some thought into that whole "posting protocol" thing.
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I think I'm in favor of Incrimental awards, I was just fuzzy on the minimum wealth and loss aspect. I think I have it now.
I was just making sure I wouldn't go under 200 and eventually ride into battle nekkid.
If I had won in the past, however, any gear bought with winnings would be at risk if I lost again (after a win)
Also, any consumables reduce my minimum wealth by their value, if used.
If I win, then, is my mInimim gold reset to 200 or is my minimum only reset when I level up? (I think upon level up).
Yah, the consumable purchases do throw a potential wrinkle into the whole minimum wealth thing.
Though here's my question: what's the real harm in making that the minimum even if a person purchases consumables for a few fights and loses them?
I can see why the people who don't use consumables would think this was unfair, but, to be honest, the person usign the consumables is apparently losing enough games that his consumable-using tactics arent working. if anything, it gives this player the option to shift his tactics and equipment (at the 200g minumum) and try to keep playing his gladiator in a different way... that seems like a good thing.
I mean, if people who are wining fights are complaining about the wealth use of a guy who's consistently losing, i kind of want to smack them on the back of the head.
Thoughts?
So, as I understand it, the goal of this style of posting is to:
1) Lead with narrative text to bring the fight (and character) to life and deliver all of the apparent actions (and easily intuited actions such as Raging) in the game thread.
2) Supplement the narrative text with non-spoilered blue text that specifies obvious and necessary details for the DM to appropriately adjudicate and the opponent to intelligently react to said actions. This would be adding blue-text to ensure the opponent knows that your gladiator is charging, any positional/location grid information, noting any attack or action details that could be overlooked or missed in the narrative text (weapon, attack info, etc), as well as prompting any reactive rolls* his opponent needs to make to keep the action moving proactively (i.e. saving throws, skill checks, etc.)
3) Keep non-apparent actions, modifiers, or character abilities "under wraps", either by using appropriately-named spoilers or PM's to the DM. This is to attempt to keep a believable level of immersion and character-knowledge the basis for an opponent's choices and tactics.
is this what we're working towards? Did I leave anything out or word something inappropriately?
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@min-gold: I see your reasoning, eben. At first I was worried about someone, somehow, abusing the basically free consumables, but if they're loosing then there's no point in punishing them into oblivion. Once they find a way to win any gold above the minimum would be at risk. Would have to put some thought into this at higher levels, however, when expensive spell components come into play.
@posting philosophy: I think that's about it. I like the ability to keep the action flowing. We'll see if it falls apart when we get a covert character in play.
Should I work up a stealth-gladiator to test?
I have one in mind, and – if our goal is to test this system out – creatign the potentially problematic classes seems the way to go.
Jehova, you want me to throw together a stealth character and use that in my next fight? (It shouldnt' take too long given I have his general idea in mind already)
I'll roll up my stealther. As of this moment, let's consider Rolg benched.
: On Rolg's dressign room swings a sign simply reading (in rough dwarven) "Gone Troll Huntin'" :
I'll submit my stealther either late today or early tomorrow... feel free to continue the bloodbath. :D
I'd be up for another match, I suppose, although I'm definitely going to be creating some new gladiators to fight, and probably a catch-all alias like my wiser companions in this arena.
Not sure on wealth. On one hand, it seems like consumables could throw off the game, but technically speaking, any ammunition you buy is consumable. In fact, realistically, even a thrown weapon that you don't pick up could be counted as "lost." So where do we draw the line? Do we have to keep track of ammunition down to the arrow/bolt/bullet, or do we only track really expensive "consumables"?
Questions, questions...
I'm enjoying the dialogue here :D
Eben, the gaining of wealth for the time being is exactly as you said it, incremental gains that may be used at any time, as detailed under the budget section in the original rules. This may be changed in some way for the final arena, but we're using it right now, data points, data points.
I think your point about the first level minimum wealth and consumables is good, it wasn't something I had thought of. I think the way that will work is that you cannot drop below 200gp for any reason, but any consumables you use will be subtracted from your wealth if you win that battle (so in your case, Rolg now has a budget of 450 gp, base of 200, +300 for winning, -50 for his potion use. I'd love to see a sneaky fellow join, though I'm not sure exactly what that would consist of at first level.
If we use Javelins do we count as retrieving them for the next match?
Any thrown weapon or ammunition that does not have a chance to break will be automatically returned at the end of the combat.
Sweet.
Durable Arrows just increased in value for an Archer.
Time to work on my Switch Hitter TWF+Rapid Shot Thrower.
I'm hoping the wealth thing (and consumables) isn't too much of a problem. I really wanted to keep consumables available, since they're a rather integral subset of gear, but they're also easily abusable, and if their cost was absorbed for everyone the way it is for level one characters at minimum wealth, they would be incredibly easily exploitable. Keep in mind that although each of the characters we've seen so far is at level one, there will hopefully be enough progression that it's not the main place people end up fighting. The idea, which may require some further implementation to properly get in place, is that the usual levels of consumables (a potion here, some arrows there) will certainly not throw off wealth by an appreciable percentage at any given level, but attempts to abuse them will be kept somewhat in check.
As for who's up next, it's Doc vs. Bruno.
Nomfiddle's mod wins out.
Oh well. Do your worst! :P
I fully intend to. What it comes down to is just how awful my "worst" is. I'm just a gnome, after all ;)
Yo! My stealth test character is ready to roll! (Eben, again)
Let me know when you have the bandwidth to toss me against someone. :D
I'm enjoying the dialogue here :D
Eben, the gaining of wealth for the time being is exactly as you said it, incremental gains that may be used at any time, as detailed under the budget section in the original rules. This may be changed in some way for the final arena, but we're using it right now, data points, data points.
I think your point about the first level minimum wealth and consumables is good, it wasn't something I had thought of. I think the way that will work is that you cannot drop below 200gp for any reason, but any consumables you use will be subtracted from your wealth if you win that battle (so in your case, Rolg now has a budget of 450 gp, base of 200, +300 for winning, -50 for his potion use. I'd love to see a sneaky fellow join, though I'm not sure exactly what that would consist of at first level.
Hmmm... I see what you're going for here, but doesn't that simply double the price of consumables?
Though until I hear otherwise, that's what I"ll mark on my sheet for Rolg.
Oh, wait... now I see what you're doing. So each gladiator would need to keep a running total of all consumables used in the arena, and they could effectively do a "new gear purchase" against their gold balance between each fight.
Is that right?
That's the general idea. Also, if anyone has a character not currently in combat and ready to go, please post so you can get thrown in vs. Sneaky Eben, for science!
Fourth fight: Poor Nomfiddle, indeed D:
+500 gold and 1 VP to Bruno, yes?
:D
Sorry for the bum luck, Nomfiddle.
+300 gold and +1 VP, putting him at a budget of 500 gp total.
I feel bad for Nomfiddle too :C
On the one hand, I think it's fitting that if a not particularly hardy character stands his or her ground, and underestimates the opponent's speed, they can become splatted very quickly, but on the other I am just sad that it was Mr. Fiddles... To be fair, I think most first level characters would have been taken out by Bruno's beastly charge.
Ahh, ok.
Ya, I was hoping he would use his suprise round action to put a pillar between us. Or that the spell he cast would somehow protect him. I kinda feel bad. Bruno doesn't, but I do. :P
Unfortunately, someone has to lose... or things would be far less exciting.
I made the mistake of attempting a spell, figuring that Bruno wouldn't get to me until the next round, and I'd have time to run.
Honestly, Nomfiddle's deadly if he can get off a spell in time, but he hasn't yet. I need to create a new character--a martial one who fares a better chance in this setting.
I think the trick with casters (at least at level 1) is having some redundant ways of making sure your spell can go off before you get hit at all.
I was surprised you went wiht Sleep against Bruno, honestly. Were I in your shoes, and were I facing a charging character (especially a mounted lance-charger), I would have readied a Color spray with the trigger being "As soon as he's in spell range".
That does two things: Both the mount and the rider must make the save, and they both have to do it before the lance can touch your fragile caster skin. His chances of both making the save are slim. If the camel fails, both camel and rider stop... no lance charge. If the rider fails, he unconsciously rides by on his mount... no lance charge.
It's a one-trick pony, but there's not much for it at low-levels... most people are one-trick ponies at this level.
Edit: I realize all that applies to Sleep as well, but not being able to ready it (becuase it' a full-action to cast) is jut really, really painful.
... as you found out. ;P
Just to say I have been following some of the fights.
here are observations I have so far...
1. since you can charge and attack with a mount in a surprise round then mounts need to be -- all combatants have them or none have them.
Doc lost due a surprise round charge and attack utilizing two seperate enemies. If a combatant does not have a mount and is fighting a mounted character then the mounted character victory should only gain 0.5 VP and if the non-mounted character wins gain 2 VP since he must fight two enemies at the same time. this is nullified when both are mounted.
2. combatants need to be spaced far enough apart so that there cannot be a charge and splat scenerio. that would mean have spacing be 100 feet (or more) apart thus even a barbarian cannot charge. (but of course the camel could charge so maybe have them sightly further).
3. possibly institute a crowd pleaser rule you kill to fast you loose popularity with the crowd.
these are just my observations thus far
The surprise round for me was spitting. I charged on my first full round. A better move for doc, I feel, would have been to move in the surprise round and place something between us, then, as he won initiative, cast. I would have been far less deadly then and I might even have lost as my will saves suck.
I think the charge-splat we are seeing is half due to the distance, and half due to characters staying in the open charging lane instead of moving and eliminating that option.
I was contemplating using color spray, but that had failed in my first fight and I didn't know if I wanted to try it again. Also, I wasn't sure how many Hit Dice camels have, so I didn't know if it'd knock it out.
As for the charge, I'm pretty sure you were counted as doing that in the surprise round, Choon--you're allowed to charge as a standard action in the surprise round and move only your speed. I didn't think camels could go 50 feet....
Believe me, if Nomfiddle ever managed to knock someone out with a spell, the next couple rounds would be getting CdG'd with a pistol.
Just to say I have been following some of the fights.
here are observations I have so far...
Hmmm… the mount thing is tricky. I hate to restrict specific class features, but mounts allow a ridiculous combination of mobility with single-target-damage output. I guess this really only affects cavaliers, druids, and summoners, right (and then I guess paladins, some clerics, rangers, barbarians, inquisitors and maybe a few other classes @ level 4 or 5).
the second part of your point, though, about animal companions, eidelons, and familiars in general is just as tricky. Again, it's a class feature, which basically means you're restricting a class if you disallow it, or making that class work twice as hard to gain VP's if they do win. But since arena seems to be all about action economy, those classes seem to have a pretty severe advantage.
2. combatants need to be spaced far enough apart so that there cannot be a charge and splat scenerio. that would mean have spacing be 100 feet (or more) apart thus even a barbarian cannot charge. (but of course the camel could charge so maybe have them sightly further).
Either that or simply having some terrain challenges or charge-interruptors that keep this from happening from the get-go.
3. possibly institute a crowd pleaser rule you kill to fast you loose popularity with the crowd.
Interesting. Not sure how this plays into Jehova's vision, given that combat performance feats are out… though i guess that's not necessarily a restriction on crowd-response ramifications.
I was contemplating using color spray, but that had failed in my first fight and I didn't know if I wanted to try it again. Also, I wasn't sure how many Hit Dice camels have, so I didn't know if it'd knock it out.
I think all animal companions start with 2 HD, dont they?
Believe me, if Nomfiddle ever managed to knock someone out with a spell, the next couple rounds would be getting CdG'd with a pistol.
I hope to get to see this... just not on my gladiator. :)
I still think that the charge-splat could be severely curtailed by the strategic use of movement and 5-foot steps to keep the pillars (or other terrain that may be added) in the way of the charger. My effectiveness is cut by more than 50% if I can't charge.
That's true, but that gives another advantage to the mounted charger. His opponent (unless he can guarantee himself a better initiative result) will always lose that surprise round to ducking for cover. A smart mounted charger could easily take advantage of this to gain an action of buffing of some form on himself.
... just thinking out loud here. I'm not necessarily saying this arena needs to be overhauled, just poking holes if I can find them.
That's what this testing is for. I'm happy to have caused so much controversy.
As was I in round 1. Any of you feel like running against a stealther as a test? :D
Well, if you can give me a little time, I'm going to be throwing up a couple of new fighters under a generic alias; I came up with a couple of interesting ideas today, and at least one of them may raise questions about mechanics.
Cool
Welp, I've got my gladiators set up, and PM'd the stats to Jehova, so I'm about ready on my end, Eben (I think)! The two I just cooked up are a far cry from Nomfiddle, so be ready for what may be an actual challenge this time.
So... I should get ready to get curb-stomped. Gotcha. ;P