I'd have to go back and look, but I believe the initial intent (though I could be mistaken) was for any player to only have one gladiator of any one level active at once. So you could have a gladiator who successfully made it to level 3, and then activate a new level 2 gladiator, and be able to run both in different fights.
I certainly have multiple concepts that I'd like to try out, but I think refraining from flooding the ranks of gladiators with any one player would be smart.. especially as that would impact how match-ups happen (can't have 1 player playing two glads against each other, for example).
Like I said, though, I could be wrong about that.
Regarding spell lists and lower level spells: The problem I'd have with that is there's more than the summoner that does that, and those same classes also have unique spells that don't appear on others.
Off the top of my head, I know Bard and Ranger both offer spells (primarily Sorc/Wiz and Druid spells respectively) at lower levels than on the other lists. But they also have unique spells that don't appear on any lists other than their own.
So if they're banned from being used to make magic items at their particular levels, then theoretically, some spells would be fully inaccessible. Or if we go on a case by case basis, it seems like it would be more complicated and sort of arbitrary that spells that appear on multiple lists would have to be chosen from the highest.
And then what about differences even between full casting classes? For example, Cure Serious Wounds and up are 1 spell level higher on the Witch list than they are on Clerics. I know it would make the most sense to go with the Cleric list obviously, but if we're going to choose some spells at lower and some at higher levels as the 'default' it seems... well, kind of arbitrary, again.
All that said, I probably don't actually care too much about the end decision. Maybe now that we're using refillable consumables, I'll pick some out, but I tend not to use them all that much anyway, so I guess this is me just being argumentative :P
Regarding spell lists and lower level spells: The problem I'd have with that is there's more than the summoner that does that, and those same classes also have unique spells that don't appear on others.
Off the top of my head, I know Bard and Ranger both offer spells (primarily Sorc/Wiz and Druid spells respectively) at lower levels than on the other lists. But they also have unique spells that don't appear on any lists other than their own.
So if they're banned from being used to make magic items at their particular levels, then theoretically, some spells would be fully inaccessible. Or if we go on a case by case basis, it seems like it would be more complicated and sort of arbitrary that spells that appear on multiple lists would have to be chosen from the highest.
And then what about differences even between full casting classes? For example, Cure Serious Wounds and up are 1 spell level higher on the Witch list than they are on Clerics. I know it would make the most sense to go with the Cleric list obviously, but if we're going to choose some spells at lower and some at higher levels as the 'default' it seems... well, kind of arbitrary, again.
All that said, I probably don't actually care too much about the end decision. Maybe now that we're using refillable consumables, I'll pick some out, but I tend not to use them all that much anyway, so I guess this is me just being argumentative :P
In my understanding, you can only use a magical item without UMD if it was crafted by your class. I.e. to use a wand of CSW, a witch must pay the price of a wand crafted by a witch. If the witch wants to use one made by a cleric, she must use UMD to emulate that class.
I'm not sure it is raw, but that's how I usually balance things.
That makes sense logically, but can someone verify if that's RAW?
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge
Yep, wands only require having the spell on your class list. You can dip a level of wizard and forever use a wand of any level without checks. It doesn't matter who made it or how much it costs. If we see those cheap items becoming far too powerful we can have a chat, but for now I still want to keep the actual rules as loose as possible.
@Kurama, hello, hello, thanks for joining and the PMs!
@Eben, I'm going to update that ETA to Friday. I know it's taking a bit longer than I'd hoped, but trust me, things are progressing. Here's what I'm still working on:
• Deciding how to set up the out of combat stuff so that it can be used more easily and is more fun, and then writing up an explanation of that.
• Creating a posting etiquette explanation, about how you shouldn't be mean despite fighting other players, the proper formatting of posts within combat, and other forum-related things. Someone had mentioned examples of proper combat posts, which I liked.
• Compiling a comprehensive list of all 'house rules' that aren't specific to the function of the arena fights, meaning mechanical changes (such as the being blind/invisible ruling) that are either direct departures from the rules because the rules are sometimes really bad, or that are due to the rulings being so vague that I needed to make a call myself. This would probably also include a list of long-running arguments that I would make rulings on (for example, you cannot use pounce with manufactured iterative attacks, because you cannot strike with each weapon at once and gain the momentum of the charge). This whole section will be in the back of the rulebook I'm making, and will probably be the most edited. Any rule-calls I make are up for discussion and argument, as always.
I'm creating a PvP rulebook by the name of Pathfinder Pits. Hopefully it will be nice enough that if at any point I can't properly arbitrate everything it can be easily picked up by someone else and used easily.
Sneak Preview Here's our new map. The shape is slightly changed, with the biggest difference being a two square wide entrance (need to have those camels be able to enter).
Also, because I've seen it come up a few times now, there is no screening process for recruitment beyond your character being mechanically legal. The other players are the judge of how viable your character is based on how mercilessly they slaughter it. You may have any number of arena characters, but you may never have more than one of each level active at any given time, since the fights are chosen randomly from among the active players of each level.
Finally, in the interest of not losing momentum, can I have a sound-off from all currently available players? Let's have a final round of testing, using the new map and such.
Two things for the new map:
1. Which squares would people start in, 10 or 11?
2. Later on, will Huge creatures be able to enter? (Since there's generally only a space of 2 squares around the entrances now.)
If I can't make Sunahl Huge-sized I'm going to be extremely sad :< I suppose squeezing might allow for it still, but that could be a bit annoying.
Would adding 1 horizontal square to give a clear middle for combatants to start on and allow for larger creatures be feasible?
Also (okay, so 3 questions), how do the smoothed sides work? I assume you can stand in any area that is primarily squarish and has the majority of its area left (so pretty much everywhere), but would 5 foot steps be possible from, say, L14 to K15, or J18 to I19? I'd figure so, but want to double check.
In regards to a last test match, Kailin is up for another one.
...
If I can't make Sunahl Huge-sized I'm going to be extremely sad :< I suppose squeezing might allow for it still, but that could be a bit annoying.
...
This makes me think of one or two builds...
Well, I don't know if squeezing works anyway for this (at least for entering the arena to start, I'd assume it can be used any other times).
But yeah, +Strength/Size = Kinda Important for his intended combat tactic. If he can't be huge, I may need an overhaul on my build plan :/
Sounding off!
I'm game for another round of tests, or for the arena proper.
Also, nice new map! I like it.
I was originally not planning on allowing huge things to walk through the doors and such... I hadn't realized that was the planning of certain builds though. In the original arena map there is not space for a huge creature to start next to their master, nor for one to fit past the columns if it wanted to go to the outer area.
I will look at the map and see how that might work, if it's viable, I'd like to at least allow hugeness to be possible, if not optimal. Let me see. Keep in mind that a huge creature would have other challenges, such as not being able to fit into the areas past the double-columns, which I think makes sense.
People would start in either the 10 or 11 column, as they choose. I would assume they would just sort of write this down in their character sheet or something, and can switch it up whenever they like. I'm hoping it won't matter terribly much.
Any square that is on that map at all (isn't fully gray) is a normal square. Those 5-foot steps aren't possible because the movement rules state, "You can't move diagonally past a corner (even by taking a 5-foot step)." This also implies that in Pathfinder diagonal 5-foot steps are legal, which I was not fully sure of, though I suppose it makes complete sense with the 5-10-5 rule for diagonal movement.
There is no trouble with moving between spaces like L14 and L13. This is not a corner (meaning a full square of wall). There are no 'half-full' squares on this map, everything is ground or a solid barrier.
I'm getting itchy for a match myself, though I'm wanting to hold out on using my character for when the arena goes live so as not to ruin the surprise.
Ready to test with Malar. I've not updated fully the character sheet with the new wealth level but that means I'll have more tricks for the future.
Bruno V.1 is available
working on Bruno V.2 for the live arena. :)
Jehova, what would be most helpful for you?
Would you rather spend the next few days focusing on gettign the live arena docs up and running? Or would another round be a good distraction? (I"m assuming that's not the case, but I thought I'd let you answer.)
working on Bruno V.2 for the live arena. :)
Is this the same Bruno, but with an Esmeralda that has been alchemically altered to fit into a Medium-sized square while still bearing a medium-sized rider at full speed? :D
I am available but I need to level Aurum to level 3 as he has won 3 fights and I'm waffling between which direction I want to take him.
I have another build that I am almost done with for level 2 that I can put in but I wont be able to submit it until tonight.
WOAH WOAH WOAH!
We have another level 3 character? ohwaititsanavoidancemonknevermind
... sigh... I guess he is Rolg's only possible opponent. I just have a feeling I know what your build is, and I don't really want to get into that fight... unless i'm way off, i'ts practically guaranteed to be boring. :(
Boring maybe but effective definitely lol.
Also depending upon where I decide to go with my 3rd level it might not be AS boring...probably still will be but still lol.
If Jehova (or someone else) wants to toss us up a match, I'll play it. Rolg could be ready to go in fairly short order at level 3.
Who were your victories against, btw?
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working on Bruno V.2 for the live arena. :)Is this the same Bruno, but with an Esmeralda that has been alchemically altered to fit into a Medium-sized square while still bearing a medium-sized rider at full speed? :D
He did get some good advise from a thoroughly smashed beastmorph alchemist in the discussion thread. ;)
Syken, Arak, and Kailin. Yours?
Um... in this order: Bruno, Charan, Rix, Bruno, Kailin
Yah, I'm not really looking forward to that rematch. Had initiative gone differently in that opening game, we might be telling a different story.
Second game came down to positioning and rolls as well.. i got'em before you did. Could have easily happened in the reverse.
I was originally not planning on allowing huge things to walk through the doors and such... I hadn't realized that was the planning of certain builds though. In the original arena map there is not space for a huge creature to start next to their master, nor for one to fit past the columns if it wanted to go to the outer area.
From what I understood, companions started on either side of their main player, or clockwise (or counter-clockwise, I forget) until there was a space for them. By that logic, I figured a Huge companion could start at B9-D11 or its opposite, on the old arena map.
Keep in mind that a huge creature would have other challenges, such as not being able to fit into the areas past the double-columns, which I think makes sense.
Squeezing could work for that though, yes?
Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.
When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.
A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.
To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space's width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can't attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Those 5-foot steps aren't possible because the movement rules state, "You can't move diagonally past a corner (even by taking a 5-foot step)." This also implies that in Pathfinder diagonal 5-foot steps are legal, which I was not fully sure of, though I suppose it makes complete sense with the 5-10-5 rule for diagonal movement.
Wait, what? Well, I knew the part about diagonal 5-foot steps (I've done several in the arena) but I didn't know the part about not being able to diagonally cross around a corner. I think I've done that several times in the arena too, just as general movement. Shoot. My bad for that :(
Side note, if anyone (not just arbiter(s)) sees me do stuff that is incorrect, please let me know. It is probably just from me being stupid.
Oh, also, perhaps withdraw Kailin from the running, since Syken is in a match and they're both the same level. I forgot the real arena was going to include only one character of any given level at a time, so I should probably get used to that now.
I'm in for a test match if there's going to be another round. I updated my equipment to 2k, just need to submit it.
And the new map looks good.
Jehova, are we all starting back at 2nd level for when we go live? Also I will be submitting an alternate gladiator as well tonight.
@imimrtl, Everyone will need to resubmit 1 character at level two, in a specific format which I will give. These will be stored by me in one place for maximum checking and organizational goodness.
@Darkwolf, I just learned that crossing corner rule myself, though I don't think I've tried to do it myself. I've spent some time shuffling the map around, and it's quite possible to allow room for huge creatures by adding one row to make the entrances three squares wide and moving the columns each one square towards the middle. Unfortunately, this puts us back in the position we were originally in, which is that it allows a character with a decent ride check to do a first-turn charge-splat quite easily, with no chance for their opponent to react with sufficient initiative. I really don't want to actively nerf class abilities, I much prefer making the preventative measures matters of logistics (can't start mounted) and space (no room for large creature in middle lane first turn) as opposed to hard bans on anything.
I'm not sure why you couldn't simply a huge the eidolon squeeze into the arena. It would take a -4 to AC and attacks while squeezing, and would need to take two squares of movement per square to get out, but it could conceivably fit under the rules you posted above.
It would also be possible in later levels to summon a huge eidolon through the second level spell, or begin with a large eidolon and enlarge it once past the pillars.
If you have another idea of how to allow more space without inadvertently overpowering other stuff, let me know.
Why all the charge-splat hate? It's only what I'm built to do. >:)
Charge splat is still valid, just not in the surprise round unless your mount is not large sized D:
*Starts examining all the small races*
Sounding off.
If squeezing works, then I'm cool with the arena setup as is. For bonus strength, bonus con, bonus reach, and bonus CMB for my flying serpent storm dragon later on, I will deal with a -4 AC for his first few turns (heck 1 perhaps, with enough of a fly speed).
So yay :D
.
*Starts examining all the small races*
...And ooh D:
Regarding a Huge arena participant and a Large arena opening:
Big over-head crane?
Subterranean rising platforms?
Stick of butter and a big-ass plunger?
Still alive and kicking for the sound off
I will make a character and join.
ready to play
Cool new Arena, I like the organic look! Could we change the numbering and lettering of tiles to chessboard layout?
Grizzlegut is ready to begin the stabbing as soon as Jehovah makes sure I didn't mess up somewhere.
Still thinking the new arena will go live tomorrow Jehova?
@Spock, I'm fine changing the lettering/numbering. I had it set up the way I did because there are more columns than rows, and I figured fewer letters was easier, but if it makes things better to switch them it's not a problem. Anyone else have an opinion on this?
@Hirtz, I'm hoping so (late tomorrow), but I really can't promise. A good old friend of mine is in town, and I haven't gotten a chance to see him yet, so that may be taking some priority. I'm putting up another testing round right now, but if you're waiting on the full one that might not help with your battle-hankering, in which case I'm sorry :(
Grizzlegut
Elmer
Kirk
Eko
Bruno
Vatale
Shigeharu
Malar
Which gives us:
Second Level:
Grizzlegut vs. Malar
Elmer vs. Kirk
Eko vs. Shigeharu
Bruno vs. Vatale
Third Level:
Rolg vs. Aurum
If I've lost track of anyone, or somebody isn't actually in for battles right now (is Kirk still active?) Let me know (part of full arena is better organization of all that). Battles should be up within two hours, I need to do some other things,
Yeah, I doubt anyone will blame you for that.
And if there is another battle to be had, I'll use the first character I sent you. The 2nd level human.
Bruno looks forward to smashing things. :)
I have no real preference on the lettering/numbering :P
Hirtz, what is that character's name?