SpoCk0nd0pe's page

SpoCk0nd0pe wrote:

...My problem with the discard to draw ability is, that it allows you to do nothing you couldn't have done last turn when resetting your hand...

This is far from true. You draw cards and then can discard those cards. It even works on your first turn of the scenario.

Yes, right, you can indeed discard a newly drawn card. I still think just drawing an additional card is the better option (and the healthier one).

You probably can go bonkers with a reclining augury/haste/attack spell combo a little easier with an Illusionist, but going to a hand size of 10 should help nearly as well.

Thanks for the suggestion of the Neclace, it also has the nice benefit of circumventing magic resistance. I'll definitely go item with my next two card feats. Except for the clockwork librarian, the sage seems to be the best ally for Ezren. Since there is nothing really there to impress me, I'll probably just go for the third item.

Draw power definitely is awesome in card games, I used to play a lot of MTG and Dominion. There is a reason blue dominates the MTG Legacy format, card filtering is just ridiculously good. You also cannot pillage too many villages in Mage Knight :)
I personally think Augury is the single most powerful card in RotR (better then Scrying in most instances because of the lower recharge).

My problem with the discard to draw ability is, that it allows you to do nothing you couldn't have done last turn when resetting your hand.

About the recharge ability with spells: If you do have a spell on top when casting one, why would you ever not want to draw it? If the ability would allow you to recharge non spell cards it would be huge, but the wording seems pretty clear on that.

The one thing I found to help circle through your deck, draw more cards in general, have the right cards at the right time is hand size. Why discard a card to draw a card at the start of your turn if you could have had that card in your hand all along? Yes, a bigger hand makes damage more dangerous, but discarding gets rid of those same HP anyway.

The only ability of the Illusionist that convinces me is the ally acquire bonus. But That would only come into play in adventure path 6 though (because auto recharge 10's and hand size 9 is more important imho) so I doubt it will be too much use.

For the last 3 card feats (first 3 being spells), what would you go for? Item/ally/item? Or just 3x Item?

Thank you for your input!

Well, I thought about the "put to bottom of the deck" ability of the Illusionist. The problem I have with that is, that augury will shuffle the cards back. While you may have problems with combat spells due to "magic resistance", some monsters cannot be evaded or have nasty side effects when evaded. Going for a mix of both is probably the best way to handle things.
Currently I have no problems handling monsters with attack spells and this ability only enhances one spell in my list. I'm just not sure it's worth it.

The way I read the first Illusionist ability ("or recharge it" extra when playing spells), it doesn't allow you to recharge non-spell cards. I cannot imagine any reason to do that. Discard a card to draw a card seems like a very weak ability as well.

Hey people,

I have analysis paralysis with Ezren regarding his role choice. So far I picked +4 int, +3 spells, +2 recharge, +1 hand size. Planned spell list (still need to find some of them):
3 attack spells
2 haste
2 augury
1 incendiary cloud
1 swipe
1 mirror image
1 invisibility

items:
sihedron medallion, codex, wand of enervation

allies:
3x sage

The point for the Evoker is the possible extra card, the extra damage really isn't necessary at all (the reason being +4 int for recharges and to overcome spell resistance is mandatory, spells do enough damage that way).
The Illusionist on the other hand can get a bonus to acquiring allies, which is probably nice to have. But since I want +3 recharge (auto recharge haste, swipe, cloud, codex) and at least +2 hand size, power feats might be too thin anyway.
Would you ever want to recharge a spell instead of drawing it with the Illusionist ability? If that ability would let you recharge non spell cards it would make sense imho. Having a larger hand size seems almost exclusively superior.

Side note: Would you rather go for +dex or +wis after int is maxed? I figured wis is a good call to make it easier to get extra explores on divine spells and wisdom checks seem really common. Dex would only benefit the one dagger and against some barriers.

Thanks in advance for any input on that matter!

Regards,

Spock

Virtuoso Lem can add to every roll. So there are other examples.

Seelah can add to every roll as well.

Sorry, yes. Those two examples are still less powerful then Lini's ability (actually saying recharge/discard) and those characters generally have bigger weaknesses then Lini (Lem's melee really sucks and Seelah has hardly any spells).

So even though this whole time I've been saying there isn't an issue, you chose to quote me in your list of people thinking it's an issue? Wow.

I am well aware of that. That post and a post saying something along the lines of "I thought Haggel is overpowered until I tried RotR Lini" made me start this thread. I was just not really sure what your point was. I never wanted to suggest that the posters I quoted where of the opinion Lini needs an errata, my point was to disprove the suggestion that nobody else sees her has possibly overpowered.

That the only other ability on RotR that gets you +1 to every roll for a power feat is Seoni's celestial sorcerer feat. The developers seemed to be very worried about the power of such an ability and gave it a steep cost plus a low cap. Looking at how all the other abilities and cards in the game work, they are all kept situational, every card that helps in additional situations seemed to be considered way better in tier. Having played my fair share of random encounter games (Betrayal at House of the Hill, Arkam Horror, probably more) characters in such games usually have some encounters they are good at and some they are bad at. All those games usually avoid abilities/items that give you a bonus on every encounter or make that bonus a one time thing.
I can't help it, for me this just seems like an odd design choice. And I do think it makes Lini too good at everything and kind of lowers the team-play factor. It also makes her development boring as one power feat is so glaringly much more powerful then every other.

I see that people contributing to this thread do not see it that way. I will just leave it at that.

And, no offense, but their is no '"there is an issue" crowd' on Lini. There is just you.

She's overpowered, but it's a cooperative game.

It has been discussed extensively, and the general agreement seems to be that it's very powerful, possibly overpowered, but there hasn't been any official errata.

RotR Lini is practically OP.

Practically? Yea... sure... Only practically.

SpoCk0nd0pe wrote:

Well, for a game that is mostly about winning random stat rolls and combat, having more then twice the average on those stat rolls then anybody else is not "situational", it's the exact opposite and that's what breaks her imho.

Your looking at Lini in isolation for solo play.

I do, otherwise it would be hard to compare her. In terms of helping other characters she's actually fairly decent. Not like Lem or Harsk but she still has Blessings and is the best character for recharging stuff like mass cure.

Another though on "the other posters don't point her out as overpowered" argument. Threads about wizard>sorcerer or casters>mundanes over at the PnP forums usually spawn a lot of "there is no issue" posts too.
It really comes down to how people perceive game mechanics, I'm with the "there is an issue" crowd.

Well, for a game that is mostly about winning random stat rolls and combat, having more then twice the average on those stat rolls then anybody else is not "situational", it's the exact opposite and that's what breaks her imho.
For combat, her spell combat is the best in the game backed up by decent melee.
Generating extra explores for recharges is actually a very strong power imho.

Saying that she can't do anything else feels kind of redundant as she can already do pretty much everything (she is also o.k. at helping others with her blessings, much better then e.g. Ezren).

It should be enough to see that, out of the entirety of the community, no one else has chimed in and mentioned that they think she deserves an errata as well.

There are posts about her being overpowered, there is only one (imho questionable) example of a character that has equal power. I would bet a hundred bucks that if we resolved a statistically significant amount of random encounters from RotR, Lini would defeat/aquire about 50% more of them then everybody else, and still 30% more if we set up some kind of reasonable help scenario (certain help from other characters available).

Whether or not that requires an errata is debatable, I certainly enjoy the game the way it is. Since it's not competitive it doesn't break the game. But I do believe tuning her down a little (like making that power only apply to combat checks) would improve the game and make the character more interesting since there wouldn't be such a clear winner for power feat investments.

Anyway, where do you draw the line? How are you going to nerf Damiel when you start S&S? He's as good as she is (in S&S), but there's no cut and dry fix to him. Or what if you see another character's power, and decide that's too good as well? It's a slippery slope.

This is without having played S&S: I took a look at him, there is no ability that strikes me to be nearly as powerful as Lini's animal ally reveal. He seems to work similar to Lini, only without the ridiculously high stat rolls, without combat spells and without rechargeable extra explores. His combat without a weapon is 2 better on average though but Lini has combat spells which are way better anyway.

Mid adventure path 2, Lini is a good divine caster while having the same averages as d20, d20, d18, d16, d26, d18 for stat rolls (Lini's work a little different ofc, this is to emphasis the issue). There is no other power in RotR that grants nearly as much benefit for one power feat, all the other powers are situational. Just because other characters might be too powerful in their adventure path doesn't mean this shouldn't be addressed.
If you nerf her power to combat checks only, she is still the best divine caster, still decent at melee if she is willing to discard, still has rechargeable extra explores and still has the best ability to pass random stat checks of all characters. Sound powerful enough for me.

I don't know that I'd say her melee is better than the other caster's. Her die is higher only if she discards cards, and that's not even a weapon or something to give her extra dice. It's arguable.

Sure, she has do discard, but the game is mostly about having the right ability at the right time. So the ability to be decent at melee when she needs it is huge for a caster. I personally did see other characters burn cards much more quickly (e.g. Seoni and Seelah).

Yes, it's good, but again -- you're keeping cards in your hand to do it, instead of other powerful cards.

I didn't see many cards in the deck more powerful then +1d4+4 to a check, unless under very specific circumstances (skill checks, put I really hate those cards as they are imho way too situational). I didn't see chapter 6 thoroughly so far though (only spoiled some stuff).

Yes, that animal ally takes a spot in your hand. But so does a codex or a blessing. And that animal ally essentially is a free blessing all the time.

@Orbis' nerf suggestion:
You could be right that making the ability "recharge" is too much of a nerf.
I think I'd rather limit her reveal ability to combat checks only (or combat+perception checks for fluff). It kind of makes sense with the way animal companions work in the PnP Pathfinder. Mechanically it won't change her combat prowess and she would still be incredibly versatile for many checks (if she is willing to discard: d10, d10, d8, d6, d10, d8 + decent amount of blessings, really good!).

She certainly isn't great at melee by default. She has to discard a card to be good at melee, more than the simple reveal real melee characters have.

Remember she is a caster, and one of the best casters in the game. Her melee is certainly better then every other caster's in RotR.

I've played through the whole first adventure with her.

Try her with two power feats. Animal allies in hand will essentially say: "Reveal this card to add one die to a check to acquire a boon or close a location or a melee combat check or divine check or to recharge a spell or to defeat a barrier."

as powerful as that can be at times

Those times are always as long as you don't loose your hand.

She's just a character that has the ability to do really well if you're willing to make sacrifices.

That sacrifice is one card slot in hand.

I meant, if it's only combat checks you're worried about, you'd complain about Valeros as well since he provides the same power.

My point was, that Lini is pretty good at meele, very good at divine combat and still gets the equivalent of a free blessing on all checks. The combination of being very good at everything is what makes Lini overpowered.

After I wrote my last post, I had another idea: Maybe the word "combat" didn't fit on the card and was somehow cut. Having that ability apply only to combat checks would be another reasonable errata choice as well imho. It would probably be closer to how the tabletop druid works (being reasonably good at blasting, healing and melee).

She's overpowered, but it's a cooperative game. Don't play her, or change the power yourself if you don't like it. No need for errata.

Sure! Don't get me wrong, I'm not smacking the cards against the wall because of it. The game is great fun!

Holy Light is great - if you can get it. But you still need to encounter it (and for a character with a decent stat to encounter it - you can wave bye-bye if Valeros finds it)

Inflict is dreadful - admittedly it's less dreadful for Lini with her animal boost than for others like Kyra, but it's still very weak - noticeably worse than even the basic arcane spells.

Arcane casters will have access to better and better spells, both direct attacks and clouds. In divine, apart from the one Holy Light, you've got nothing until Swipe comes along.

Umm? I did the math for you, the better arcane combat spells are compensated for by Lini's broken progression math. Ezren's Disintegrate deals as much damage as Lini's Holy Light/Swipe. Ezren is the one who needs to hurry to find better spells as mid advanture 4 Inflict will deal more damage then Lightning bolt.

Side note: Holy Light is in deck 1, Swipe in deck 3, Disintegrate in deck 5.

I'm talking Rise of the Runelords and I don't have cleric class deck so I don't know Heggal.

Having to keep the ally in hand can slow her down in terms of multiple explorations, and she can have issues with combat (doesn't start with a weapon, very limited Divine Attack spells in RotR), so personally I don't think she's broken, but there's no question that she's good.

Well, I don't think she is slowed down in explorations because she can recharge all excess animal allies for extra explores, which is huge on it's own. Plus she has some blessings (which she can heal on her own).

The Math (wis+3, animal ability+2, card feat: weapon) by the end of advanture deck 2:

Lini will have an average 14 on her divine checks, with holy light this means about 21 average damage (28 vs undead/outsider) with 97.5% recharge. Inflict will do 17.5 damage with a guaranteed recharge. Melee without a weapon+discard is an average of 10, taking a weapon as first card feat is very useful, so a 14.5 is doable if you draw your weapon. And of course the ridiculous averages for stat checks:
Str: 7 (10)
Dex: 8 (10)
Con: 9
Int: 8
Wis: 13
Cha: 9

In comparison: Specialized Ezren/Seoni have an average of 11.5 on their arcane checks, dealing 18.5 damage on ray spells, 22 damage on lightning bolt.
Valeros will have 11.5 base on his melee checks, but will have better combat because he can often recharge his weapons.
Summary: If you go full caster, you miss one damage to the wizard, and ~2.5 damage to the fighter if he can't recharge and you draw your weapon. On all secondary rolls your averages are 4.5 points (an extra d8) higher! That's better then a permanent blessing of the gods for all checks!

This gets worse the more the game progresses as you will become wild warden and get another +2 to all dice and invest excess skill points in strength. Ezren on disintegrate: 26.5, You with holy light/swipe: 26/26.5. Valeros base meele: 12.5, you: 14.5 (+1 strength included)(at this time both will be proficient with weapons because you need to pick 3 powers before wild warden). Your unblessed secondary skill checks are almost as good as the others blessed 2 times.

Sure you do have a slightly smaller hand size (effectively 4 until mid adventure path 5) but that doesn't make up for all that power.

[edit because of ninja]@ Jason S:
Well, for card feats I would probably go weapon - ally - ally - spell - [item or spell]. That way you get a backup for your spells and then rechargeable extra explores plus backup animal allies in case you loose your hand. Your discard ability+weapon is enough against the usual monster, 3 attack spells will be sufficient against the stronger opponents. I'd go 2 heal and something else (like augury or strength) for the rest of your spells.

This really seems like an oversight that needs an errata, maybe a misprint even. The ability seems more reasonable if you had to recharge the animal ally.

Hi folks,

having seen Lini in action and having done a little thought-play about what happens if she acquires some power feats, she seems ridiculously overpowered. Adding d4+[number of power feats] to all die rolls as long as you have an animal ally in hand is way more powerful then anything any other character or card has to offer.
The ability would still be very very strong if it readed "You may recharge an ally with the Animal trait to add d4[+*] to your check."
This really seems like a misprint.

Any card or power may only be played once per step of an encounter.

So this means Lini cannot use her reveal animal to add d4 to a divine attack spell in damage and then add the d4 to recharge?

How often may he use it on the same combat check? The wording of Lem's ability suggests as many times as you want, that seems hugely powerful though.

Thanks in advance!

If you want to be more of a fighter I would say Paladin 2/sorceror 4/Dargon disciple 4/eldritch knight 10. A slightly differnt variant of that would be Paladin 2/Sorceror 4/Dragon Disciple 8/Eldritch knight 6.

If spells can take a backseat I think those are strong options. I personally favor the RDD 8 variant since it has more flavor and advances your bloodline powers. Fighter 1/Sorc 4/RDD 8/EK 7 is another good variant if you don't want to go paladin.

I'd still need to know about the spellbook things before I can finish Kirk (mostly: how much is it to add a spell?). I'd also need to know if I can direct a flaming sphere down a created pit (basically without seeing where it goes exactly) :)

For Incantatrix? Only PF metamagic? Ask your DM for 3.5 persistent spell or chain spell (be careful this seriously brakes the game, Incantatrix was considered one of the cheesiest options in 3.5, much more powerful then Io7V!).

I'd start with extend spell so you can extend your party's spells via cooperative meta magic. It's also useful for metamagic effect.

Else go for StreamOfTheSky's list, I pretty much agree it's the most powerful (in order) in most circumstances.

Don't forget to pump spellcraft by any means available.

I meant you could circumvent the last round of the staggered condition (by delaying it out).

And I'm not really sure what part of that quote would suggest you retain the same actions that you had before.

When reading "act normally" I understand "act like you had not delayed".

You essentially try to use the delay action to pull off an action earlier then you would normally be able to. I can see your point but this sounds paradox to me...

[edit]To give a concrete scenario: Gladiator A and B fight. A wins initiative and starts a full round action. B delays and charge-splats. Now B essentially circumvented loosing initiative by using the delay action. I don't think this should be allowed and I don't think it is.

I've some questions about wizards scribing spells: In PFS season 0 there was a rule that you had to buy a scroll of the spell (even if you found one). In season 1 this is no longer necessary. Since I could in any case buy any scroll and sell it later on, can I just use the prices stated in the SRD (under Magic: Spell level and writing cost)?
Can I sell my spellbook, buy a new one, and make money from unneeded 0 level spells/useless bonus spells (I think I shouldn't btw ;D)?

I found another oddity in the consumable, refunds, etc rules: We already talked about partially charged wands and ammo stacks. But what happens if I buy a stack of +1 arrows, shoot a few and sell the remaining ones? Does this mean I never get refunds for wands/stacks? If I have enough refunds to manage a wand, do I get the wand refunded, keeping the partially charged wand after combat?
Suggestion to solve this: You always have to buy full stacks/fully charged wands etc. and you always have to refill them after combat. But you get the charges/shots used refunded (if within your limits). That way those items do not present cheap alternatives for scrolls/enchanted ranged weapons while still remaining usable. Maybe make them not count vs. the consumable limit, it would be too limiting on those items imho.

By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act.

I think you just delay your action. I don't see why you would get a full round action instead of a surprise round action of you delay a surprise round action. It would also mean you could circumvent the staggered condition that way. Seems a little shady to me.

I don't think making an exception to the no crafting rule for bonded items (and their likes) breaks anything, so I'd say allow it. But I would allow mundane crafting too.

@ Eko vs Gin fight:

I am Zouh..come and face me, one soul to another

Zouh delays into Round 1

I think if I understand it correctly this allows me to effectively go first, but with only a standard action? correct me if I am wrong

Yes, you can only delay the action you have.

If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

I tend to agree that you should be able to enchant item bonds. Familiars are just that much more powerful already (unless you plan on multiclassing).

SpoCk0nd0pe wrote:

It's 3rd season btw ;)

... flies right over Eben's head. (What?)

It's THE third season!

The Game of Thrones is on :)

It's 3rd season btw ;)

The next 9 weeks I'm eagerly waiting for Monday :)

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

My opinion is that if its easiest for Jehova, I'm happy to oblige.

I concur.

Me too. I just thought the form fillable sheet is clearer then the text file (especially for equipment and spells, stuff that benefits from columns).

@Jehova:

Is there a specific reason you want that template? I just started working Kirk in and I think the form fillable sheet is a lot clearer.

So... TL;DR I think an all wizard party is quite possible and could be pretty neat.

I actually thing an all wizard party can be pretty brutal at mid levels. I don't think you really need a tank or a melee, just summon something that does it (or planar bind it). At early levels only immune to mind effecting can be problematic (the others can be handled by 4xDC16 color spray or sleep).

I'd go with:

Admixture blaster,
Teleportation summoner/controller,
Void SoD,
Forsight "scouter"

One or two should be Samsaran to add bard spells to their list (CLW etc), wizards trying to bypass SR should go Elf. Android is a pretty powerful option as well. One should have good cha for social skills and planar binding.

You should have enough skillpoints to cover each skill. I don't think you really need UMD though, but it's neat for your Lyrakien familiar.

Generally just go with the blue options from Prof. Q's guide, spread them across the different characters and you should have a party that is really difficult to challenge if played smart.

Pathfinder Stat Block.

Another option could be Abellius' Form Fillable Character Sheets. I use them atm to upload characters, what do you prefer Jehova?

Another question since we start at level 3: How much do extra spells for the wizard cost? I need a new strategy since color spray is not a CDG option anymore :)

@Jehova: Maybe try 20%/10% or 30%/10% (consumable/replacable)? Another thing: Maybe it makes sense to reserve one forum column for rules clarifications so they don't sink in the general discussion thread.

I wouldn't say he is broken, you can avoid a full attack routine and his attack bonus probably isn't that high. I think I made a mistake.

@Jehova: Did you see my post about carrying capacity? Just wanted to ask because it might have gotten lost.

>.<;; I was hoping nobody saw that. I read back through it and snorted loudly. And indeed, that happened to poor Kirk.

It's a good thing that it did happen, next time I will avoid it at the cost of an AoO :)=

I will always go with more levels. But my opinion is heavily biased since I play a caster.

I have a request for another area of rules: Carrying capacity. How many items can I cling to my belt? Do I have to carry my spellbook into the arena? Do I need a scroll case to carry scrolls? Can I fight naked?

I'm probably the first to ask because Kirk dumped str so much every pound counts :)

Another thought: Maybe someone is willing to maintain a sheet displaying some info about each gladiator. It could lift some work off Jehova. Good points to maintain could be:

Current status (active/suspended)
Level
Victory stats
Money permanently lost to consumables

I think the system is good as it is. Imho it's Pathfinder's random system that allows too much variance, the less luck the better ;)

I think the idea is, that you do not get to higher levels by fighting often, only by winning more often then loosing. But I can see how this is a problem at lower levels because the outcome of fights is sometimes quite random.

Whoot? I got a fight? I did not update my equipment and thought I could work on Kirk for the real arena. I only have a half edited Samsaran Kirk :(
But I could use my last submission on Google docs. I would like to add an acid bolt though.

Cool new Arena, I like the organic look! Could we change the numbering and lettering of tiles to chessboard layout?

I really like that system! Saves a lot of hassle tracking character wealth. I might suggest going with 20%/10% because the numbers behave better (no need for rounding) ;)

@ Eben: Pretty much the same thing applies to partially charged wands.

Maybe you could sum different possibilities with pro/contra up? You write really good posts, this could help :)

Observing the test fight, I pretty much had similar questions about post formalities during my first few fights. Maybe we should write up 2 examples for combat posts to go into the rules.

Another thought came to my head about the summoner list: I know it's for higher levels but contingency spell turning and contingency maze could win fights on their own.

[edit]P.S.@ Animation's witch list: If I interpret dust form right, the protection can be bypassed by magic weapons. This should be really common by level 11. Vomit swarm requires a standard action to direct and does not deal much damage. I think flaming sphere is a better casting.

I don't think you can use this ability to get early access to spells. It says you

Mystic Past Life (su) wrote:

You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class.

but the spells from the summoner list are already on your wizard spell list. You can't add to your list spells you already have.

By RAW you can. Here is the statement by the designer of the ability.

I like the Witch spell list too. Ill Omen, Cure Light Wounds, Vomit Swarm (its cool and it scales), Speak With Dead, Poison (with Reach Spell or Spectral Hand), Dust Form (to be incorporeal but still affect others with magic), Heal.

Thats 1 too many, but those are a few of the ones I like.

Sorry mate but in arena PvP speak with dead is probably as useful as identify. Healing spells are near useless as well (because they just suck in combat).

Witch list. For a SoD caster absolutely nothing beats quickened ill omen. As long as your opponent has a weak save and you have a spell for it you're good, and the wizard already has the best selection of spells against all saves across all levels.

Ill omen is definitely good. I already have reveal weakness though, and by the time it can be quickened my Lyrakien can use it as a wand.

Thanks for your input.

About the witch list: Do you have specific debuff spells in mind? Could you give me a few examples?

About the versatility: The thing you mention is valid. I think of the combat use of every single spell though because there is no adventure where versatility helps, this is only for quick, bloody arena fighting. Every standard action you take should bring you closer to winning then every other standard action you could take instead. That's how I look upon the spells, and most bard spells are no great help here:
- Cloak of dreams probably sucks big time because most good fighter will have reach.
- Silence is a gem
- early entry on terrible remorse is nice because it allows for persistent remorse at lvl 5 (great candidate for using magical linage and metamagic master, will steal actions later with quicken spell). This will always be a great spell because of the loose/loose situation.
-Euphoric tranquility: nice spell but why cast this and not suffocate or icy prison? Plus it's touch range (successful melees mostly have reach at lvl 2)...

The Summoner spell list just has a lot of those kind of spells for early entry: all of them except for maybe slow and baleful polymorph are often huge casts. For example: An early entry on spell turning should help a lot since I expect a lot of spellcasters at mid levels. Maze is aMazing against eidolons :), improved invisibility wins the fight if your opponent can't detect, black tentacles is huge against any not full BAB class plus the difficult terrain still steals a round from melees.

You get the picture :)

I'm currently favoring the summoner list because I cannot fill the bard list with "I win" buttons (like the summoner's is). Maybe you can help me out here.

I too like the idea of ditching the wealth for wins thing and just go with the standard WBL. It makes bookkeeping between so much easier.
I'd probably try an amount like 10% consumable refund and see how it goes from there.
I would also like a cap on consumables to that amount (or 20% maybe) to address the mentioned arena nuke.

Eben is very much right again! Thank you Jehova for organizing this. I don't mind if I got stomped by one of your characters every once in a while ;)

What are branches btw?

And I'd like to reopen the wealth for consumables discussion because I already lost track of how many crossbow bolts Kirk shot :(

Another thought on this:
If I get paired up randomly to someone willing to spend all his money on consumables I kind of have to do that too to keep up. That would put me to a disadvantage towards pairings where people save the money for later use.
I really think a fixed consumable value each fight depending on level would be a good thing. Under the current rules people won't go crazy on consumables anyway since it would eat all their money for future fights. I think it leads to a rather conservative consumable use.

Besides thinking about all the possibilities and allocating the right amount of money on consumables to not end up broke but still get a decent advantage is just shattering my head! ;)

@Darkwolf: I think 4 levels below is a huge benefit. But Jehova allows is so I better start min/maxing :)

@Eben: I'll take a breather. If I got things right Jehova will start the real arena this weekend anyway. So I will take my time to mess with Kirk (need to pick mystic pastlife, think about sleep+GDC, think about partially charged wands etc.).

Hi everyone,

I'm building a SoD wizard for PvP arena play. And I need advice for the mechanically most powerful 6 spells to pick for mystic past life. The list should be spread over a few levels and should contain mostly spells good for going nova against a single combatant (and maybe his eidolon).

My ideas so far:

From summoner list: Maze, SM VII, Spell turning, baleful polymorph, black tentacles, slow and improved invisibility (I know, one of those would have to go).

From Bard list: Euphoric tranquility, Terrible Remorse, Arcane Concordance (does it work on you? because the spell just states your allies), silence, cloak of dreams.

Thanks in advance for any further ideas.

Go for the min/max! :)