Aye, this place should be going away now, I'll mark it as inactive.
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Sorry Endoralis, I shall look back and add him to the randomization! I'm attempting to do randomization nowabouts, I have gone out on an unexpected social call.
@ Llaelian, I was considering that using your weapon-corded off-hand to help you wield another weapon was more under the category of "using the hand" than "switching weapons". This is not one of the clearest rule areas, but as it's allowable to take a hand off of a two-handed weapon as a free action, cast a spell, and put your hand back on a the hilt as a second free action, I figured the weapon cord shenanigans weren't too out of line. Also, I wouldn't consider swinging a greataxe to be a 'finer action'. Those things said, the dangling weapon clearly prevents one from wielding another weapon specifically the corded hand, so the argument against two-handing is also somewhat valid, depending on how one determines wielding. Either way, one cannot drop a corded weapon, two-hand another weapon, and then hold the two-handed weapon in a the corded hand in order to cast a spell with somatic components, or such things (because they include completely 'switching weapons'). Other opinions?
Oh hey, sorry, looks like the forum ate my announcement post, but THE THREAD ACTUALLY HAS BEEN UP SINCE LAST NIGHT (I totally stuck to that deadline).
Alrighty, looks like we have the following gladiators ready to go: Avenath - Zouh
I also have received Elmer from Billybrainpan, waiting on a few revisions. @ dbauers, the way I'm imagining the refunds for consumables is that after each fight you receive an amount of gold equal to what you could have sold the expended consumable for, up to a maximum of the refund limit. This would mean that you would receive an amount of gold equal to what you'd have gotten if you sold a wand containing number of charges you used up. You can either pocket this gold and continue using your depleted wand, or sell the wand and purchase a new one using the money gained from its sale + the money just gained from the expended charges. So long as you don't use up more than your limit, you'll be refunded the exact price of your used-up resources, and can begin each fight with an identical gear list to the last. The reason for the 'only buy full wands' rule is to prevent stuff like someone purchasing a wand of high above their level that contains only a single charge, and then UMDing it to great effect (and likely no cost). In response to my own previous post where I said that spells copied to a spellbook count as consumables: forget I said that, it's dumb. What I meant was that they are a permanent investment, and so will be subtracted from your total wealth whenever you go to buy gear (the same as if you never sold back any other item). They do not count towards your consumable limit, and the 5% and 10% limits are always determined from full potential (not actual) wealth.
From the bottom up: • Yes, any previous arena records will be wiped clean, everyone starts fresh at 3rd level. • It's fine to just kinda say which direction you're sending a sphere, though you may not know if it hits people. • I had originally been requiring casters to pay full scroll price to copy down new spells, but seeing as spells must be prepared before battles are even assigned, I don't feel that having a wide pool of spells from which to prepare is particularly broken, so I am fine having spells be bought for add-to-book price. Keep in mind, however, that since you are not able to sell spells back they will eat into your consumables budget. • @Darkwolf, sorry for not responding to the Sunahl questions yet, I do have answers for those, though you may not need them anymore. • I think I managed to not realize there were two bauerses, or else I just missed you, d. Welcome aboard if I didn't already say that!
Also, as we create a new recruitment thread and get underway with the Pathfinder Pits, feel free to invite anyone else you think might enjoy it, from any other PbP games or even the Real World. Starting things off strong with the new thread will be helpful for getting a nice large pool or combatants (which is important for meaningful advancement).
In response to the weapons and tigers discussion, neither are planned for the immediate future, though the likelihood of seeing monsters in the pits at some point is higher than peasants chucking mundane swords down at the fighters. If nobody has any big issues with the current rules (sorry about the campaign traits thing, Rolg), I'll put them up in a brand new swanky Pathfinder Pits post and we'll get underway this evening o_____o;;
The arena does not cap at 12, that is just the cutoff point for the tables for now, with the assumption that it will take some time to start hitting that sort of level.
Comments and criticism and such welcome and encouraged. There've got to be some things we've discussed but I didn't include there, so this would be the time to let me know that :D Stuff like the blindness/invisibility discussion will be in a final subsection called Further Arbitration / Houserules or something.
We've all seen the endless flame wars about the comparative power of different classes. We've seen the DPR Olympics and other optimization challenges, we've seen many broken builds and many people screeching their merits or detriments at one another all across the internet. It's time to put some of these theories to the test, and to have a bone-splinteringly good time doing so. So welcome to the Pathfinder Pits! WHAT IS THIS? The Pathfinder Pits are a place for ongoing optimized play-by-post PvP. Everyone is welcome to create a character and jump on board, but only an elite few will ascend through the ranks, attaining much glory and bragging rights. The characters who join will be matched randomly against other characters of their level in single combat. Those who win gain reputation, advancing in wealth and level and generally being better than other people. Those who lose suffer a drop in reputation and are resurrected by the mysterious forces in control of the pits in order to redeem themselves or die (even more) trying. I want to make it clear before you read any further that this is a hardcore sort of 'campaign'. You may have opportunities to role-play, and everyone should have some amount of backstory and flavor for their character, but if you're not also a powerful and versatile one-on-one combatant you may find yourself frustrated. That said, there's nothing to stop you from re-rolling as often as you'd like and jumping back into the pits with a better build, so go ahead and get creative! The gameplay rules for the pits are as strict as I can make them, with the intent that nobody will have a victory taken from them by any sort of biased judgment call or unnecessary house-rule. I want to keep all rules as close to the intended and accepted Pathfinder rules as possible, so that if someone else were to take over arbitration their rulings would be the same. This may mean you can't do some really cool thing because it's not technically in the rules, and for that I apologize, but when it comes to PvP the rules are quite important. As in Pathfinder Society, there is no crafting, teaching animals tricks, or leadership, but pretty much all other aspects of the game are left unchanged, giving players as many building blocks as possible to create powerful characters. If you plan on making a character and jumping in, I recommend at least scanning through the advancement and gameplay rules beforehand, to make sure everything will work as you expect it to once you're in The Pits. CREATING A PIT FIGHTER Pit fighters begin at 3rd level. A player may only have a single character at each level at a given time, but feel free to retire a character and create a new one at any time. No matter your previous record in the arena, any new character starts at 3rd level. You may have multiple characters so long as none of them are the same level. Only Paizo published material is allowed when creating a pit fighter. Anything used should be findable through The SRD, PRD, or Archives of Nethys (fills in some holes in the SRD). This is to allow an even playing field among those who own differing numbers of books. These regulations are in addition to any stricter restrictions on material below. If you have questions on something's legality, shoot me a PM, but please don't ask me about third party material, it's simply not allowed. — Abilities Pit fighters are created using 25 point buy. No score may be dropped lower than a 7 or boosted above an 18 before racial modifiers. A pit fighter may be of any (adult) age, but they take neither penalties nor gain bonuses for being old. Here is a nice place to fiddle with point buy. — Races Race can determine a great deal of what a pit fighter is capable of, especially at lower levels. There should be as much room as possible to choose the perfect race for a given build, but some races are impractically unbalancing and are not allowed. Alphabetical List of Legal Races:
Catfolk
— Classes All classes, be they core, base, alternate, or prestige, are allowed in the pits. All archetypes are legal, and multiple archetypes may be stacked together provided they do not conflict in any way. Alternate classes may take archetypes from the class on which they were based (and vice versa), so long as they have each of the replaced abilities at the relevant level (a Ninja may take the Scout archetype, for example). As in Pathfinder Society gameplay, some classes are altered as a result of crafting, animal training, and leadership being disallowed. Altered Classes:
Alchemists receive the Extra Bombs feat at 1st level instead of Brew Potion. Cavaliers receive Skill Focus (Handle Animal) as a bonus feat instead of the Expert Trainer class feature. Clerics with the Nobility domain get the Persuasive feat at 8th level instead of the Leadership feat. Clerics with the Rune domain receive Spell Focus at first level instead of Scribe Scroll. Druids with the Nobility domain get the Persuasive feat at 8th level instead of the Leadership feat. Oracles with the Nature mystery receive Animal Growth as a bonus spell at 11th level instead of Awaken. Witches may not select the Cauldron hex. Wizards do not receive a bonus feat at 1st level. — Feats and Traits Item Creation, Performance, and Achievement feats are not allowed in the Pits. All other feats from legal sources are fair game. Campaign Traits are not allowed in the arena. Any other traits from legal sources should be fine, but keep in mind that there may be prerequisites that a character is incapable of fulfilling (pit fighters may not be members of the Pathfinder Society). Any feats or traits that require a certain place of origin or religious affiliation must be consistent with other feats, traits, and classes. — Skills There are no restrictions on skills or their usage in the arena, though those such as Forgery or Swim will be pretty useless in most situations. Any out of combat interaction between characters will be minimally regulated, so there may be more room here to make use of skills. Otherwise, keep in mind any prestige class prerequisites you may need to meet down the road. — Alignment There are no alignment restrictions in the pits. Though the killing of intelligent humanoids for reputation and profit is a fairly evil past time, defeating an enemy in one on one combat is somewhat more honorable than many methods, and hey, nobody stays dead. — Hit Points Pit fighters follow the PFS method of hit point determination. Each character receives full hit points for their first level, and for each following level they receive half of their hit die, rounded up. This means that at each level after first a Wizard would gain 4 hit points, a Cleric 5, Fighter 6, and Barbarian 7. An animal companion or other non-player combatant receives one half of their hit die each level (including first), rounded down, recalculated at each new level. — Equipment Pit fighters begin with 4,500 gp worth of gear. Items may be bought and sold freely between matches for their listed price. There is no haggling, and sell prices are equal to buy prices. Living creatures are not legal for purchase in the pits, and no living creature besides a player character may enter the arena with the exception of those gained through class features. A pit fighter may spend no more than 10% of his or her current wealth on consumable items, but there are no further restrictions on the percentage of wealth that may be spent on a given type of item or items. All items must be purchased at full price and in the usual quantity (meaning you must buy 20 Whistling Arrows if you want any, and wands must be fully charged upon their purchase), but they may be sold back at full price for whatever percentage of use remains (you can sell back a wand with 25 charges remaining for exactly half of its listed price). Keep in mind that past a certain threshold, consumable resources that are used up in combat will permanently subtract from a character's wealth. See the Wealth section for more information on consumables. — Character Submission Any character is welcome in the arena, so long as they are mechanically legal. No character will be turned away for poor flavor or an unoptimized build, and as soon as a character is properly submitted and confirmed to be legal they will be put into the pool for fights. Keep in mind that the player is responsible for their character's legality. The characters will be reviewed when they are received, and anything the reviewer notices will need to be fixed before the character is accepted, but if the reviewer misses something that later makes a difference, the player is responsible (and may suffer a fight loss and/or Reputation penalty if things are screwed up too badly). Just double check your sheets, and you'll be fine. If there's anything you have a rules question on, send me a message. Here is the template for sending in a character. This should be filled out in plaintext and messaged to Pit Administration. Feel free to personally keep track of your character data wherever and however you choose, but for character submission the above template must be used. Each character must be resubmitted when changed in any way (primarily when leveling up), so keep a copy of the filled-out template to edit and send in when necessary. Hopefully Bungles is a good enough example for showing where to put information, but if you have any questions on the template, send me (not Administration) a message. Animal companions, familiars, eidolons, etc. should have their own stat block sent with their master's. ADVANCEMENT — Reputation Instead of gaining experience for defeating foes, pit fighters go up in Reputation with each successful bout, and down in reputation upon failure (death). When one character kills another, he or she gains an amount of Reputation equal to the defeated foe's level. The beaten character loses an equal amount of Reputation. The number of equal-leveled opponents one needs to defeat to level up is always three, though losing fights between victories will drop your Reputation back down and require more total victories for advancement. When a pit fighter has enough Reputation to advance a new level, he or she loses all accumulated Reputation from the previous level and permanently gains the level. It is not possible to lose a level due to losses of reputation, nor can a pit fighters reputation drop below zero. Losing further fights when possessing no Reputation will not drop you lower than you are, though your win/loss ration will suffer. The following chart shows the total amount of Reputation needed to advance from the given level. Remember, the amount of Reputation gained is always the opponent's level. Unless your character is challenging or being challenged by characters of different levels, this will stay quite simple. Reputation Needed to Advance:
3rd 9
— Wealth Wealth in the pits is based only off of a character's current level. There is no change in wealth between fights unless a character has gained a new level from acquiring Reputation, or has used up wealth in combat. Wealth for each level is the average wealth for a character midway through that level based on the Pathfinder Wealth by Level Chart. Pit Fighter Wealth by Level:
3rd 4,500 gp
As mentioned in character creation, a pit fighter may not spend more than 10% of his or her wealth on consumable items. If a character uses up consumables in a fight that do not exceed 5% of his or her total wealth, the expended wealth is reimbursed at the end of the fight. Anything used up over the 5% limit is forever subtracted from the gladiator's total wealth. Any items sundered or otherwise destroyed without their owner's intent or consent will also be reimbursed after the match, unless this is a possible side effect of normal use (use fragile equipment at your own risk). GAMEPLAY — The Pit Here is the current map of the pit. All squares that aren't dark stone are fully navigable, and the pit floor is hard packed dirt and sand. The rough-hewn stone of the pillars and the pit walls rises 25 ft. above the floor, up to an observation and seating area where spectators can safely watch the bloodshed. There is an invisible field of force preventing anything from rising above the lip of the pit, keeping the audience safe and limiting vertical movement above the ground to 25 ft. upwards. The stone of the pillars and walls also extends 25 ft. down past the pit's bottom to a second floor made of stone. The stone floor, walls, and pillars are coated by the same force that covers the mouth of the pit. The stone ignores any attempts at damage or manipulation, and is considered a perfectly sheer, smooth surface (unclimbable without magical aid). When combat begins, the entrances of the pit seal, and do not reopen until the outcome of the match has been decided. — Combat Rules Combat in the Pits is no different from that in a normal Pathfinder campaign, except that your enemies will be much more powerful and intelligent and there will be no fudging of dice rolls by your friendly GM to keep you alive. There are no major mechanical changes to the fighting gameplay; everything is meant to be as close to 'generic' Pathfinder as possible, though the set-up for the fights is somewhat nonstandard. Each combatant begins at one of the two doors leading into the pit, at the north or south. The combatant who is first in alphabetical order enters from the north, and his or her opponent from the south. Combatants begin in the left-hand square of their entrance (A11 in the north, L10 in the south). Any companions who are with a combatant in the arena (restricted to class ability companions only) begin at their master's right-hand side. When a match starts, each pit fighter confirms his or her location and the location of any companions, and then rolls initiative. Combat itself begins with a shared surprise round, where neither combatant may take more than a single move or standard action (as well as any allowed swift or free actions). The highest initiative combatant starts the match off by taking his or her surprise round actions (even if they merely delay until next round), and then the fight is underway. Past the surprise round, all actions occur exactly as they would in regular Pathfinder gameplay, unless extraordinarily strange things come up that simply must be house-ruled, in which case they will be added to this document. — Combat Posting Posts in combat need to convey all relevant information, preferably cinematically in addition to mechanically. For this reason, it is necessary to post both in-character text detailing what your character's obvious actions consist of, as well as posting a mechanical out of character explanation. It's also a good idea to post the round number at the beginning of each post, so everyone is clear when the fight has moved on (since some posts may be in reaction to something on the same round). Any dice rolling necessary should be done in spoilers. Note that since the arbiter has access to the character sheets, it's alright to only post a roll itself and not any modifiers, though most rolls will need their results publicly posted. Here's an example of a fairly standard turn:
— Etiquette This is intended to be a friendly place to smash one another into dust and try out crazily optimized character ideas. The fights are meant to be competitive, but also friendly, with no permanent character deaths and everyone getting as many chances at glory as they desire. Keeping this in mind, please don't make winning the absolute most important part of your arena adventures; no matter how long you've spent crafting the perfect character there can always be those terrible rolls or horrible match-ups that lead to a loss. This is part of being involved in an arena and it's expected that anyone planning on fighting will be able to accept even the 'unfair' losses with honor, dignity, a minimum of sulking etc. Note that this does not mean your pit fighter can't be pissy about losing, just make sure that most of the whining stays in-character. Also, please refrain from peeking in other players' spoilers. If you just cannot help yourself you'd better be very sure any information gained doesn't affect your character's actions in combat, because meta-gamed knowledge is the height of dishonorability in PvP. Remember that you can always PM your more secretive actions to the Arbiter if you wish. OUTSIDE THE PIT — Logistics The current plan is that these rules, all maps, and any other necessary information will be posted in the Campaign Info Tab, along with permanent links to each of the Pits. The combat for the Pathfinder Pits will be held in several different threads, each considered to be one of the pits. There can only be one fight in a given pit at a time, so if there are enough people to fill them all up, new pits will be opened. It's conceivable that in the future there will be new kinds of pits with different layouts, and also possible that older pits will be retired. Links to the gameplay threads will be posted publicly in the discussion thread when fights are assigned. The gameplay thread will be used for in-character but out-of-combat interaction between pit fighters (more on this below). The discussion thread is for questions, concerns, and comments not related to recruitment, and for official fight match-ups. The recruitment thread is only for recruiting and recruitment discussion. Fights will be assigned randomly between pit fighters of equal levels, and the paired-off combatants will each be given a pit. Randomization will not occur if there are fewer than five combatants ready for a battle, unless there are fewer than five active combatants of that level total. Challenges may be made within the arena, but they must be broken up by assigned fights (no combatant may participate in a challenge two battles in a row). Challenge fights are no different from the normal kind except that they may be between pit fighters of any level, and the combatants must mutually agree to the match. — Out-of-Combat Gameplay Even pit fighters can't spend all day hacking one another to bits, and since fights don't run more than once a day and last only a few minutes (if that), downtime is inevitable. The main gameplay thread is a place for characters to relax. Here they can have actual conversations or attempt to genetically engineer super-camels, all that stuff that there's no time for in combat. There's a great deal of freedom for pit fighters, and the pit facilities are immense and exhaustive. There are libraries, laboratories, sparring areas, kitchens, gardens, empty rooms, and pretty much anyplace else a pit fighter might want to spend time while not killing and/or dying. The only restrictions during downtimes are that the pit fighters must not interfere with other combatants in any permanent way (there are very extensive wards against such things), and they must not leave the facility. This part of gameplay is not particularly moderated; go nuts, but keep it in character. — Setting and Story The Pits exist somewhere on or in Golarion, as far as anyone knows. None of the pit fighters can quite recall their journey to the pits, but they have all come of their own free will, to prove themselves against one another, to gain the love of the crowd and the respect of their peers. The arena is never lacking in audience; the fights are watched by crowds from every social group and race. Peasants, nobles, soldiers, and scholars, humans, elves, dwarves, and orcs, all of them shout and cheer and wager as the fighters clash on the sand. It is rumored that as a someone rises through the pit ranks he or she may gain the attention of more notable audiences, but no one is able remember the last time a pit fighter achieved such status. Who or what is running the entire operation is also somewhat of a mystery. The Pits are incredibly well-funded, and have access to some very powerful magic when it comes to keeping them running. It's difficult to fathom the reason for The Pits existence in the first place considering its apparently already infinite budget and lack of entrance fees for audiences. The external facilities are run by seemingly normal staff of every race. They cook, clean, run the various facilities, and provide equipment for combatants, but none of them seem to have an idea of who is at the top of the operation...
Thanks Darkwolf, I've made the changes you suggested (including adding more capitals >.>). If you've already submitted a character don't worry about changing anything now unless you really want to, just take a look at the skills template next time you update. And Choon, no worries, the thread isn't even up yet :P (So good @ deadlines).
Yes yes indeed, all of you practice round people get special badge things (ooh that's a good idea, there should be some sort of achievements, so people can get prizes without them affecting gameplay... must think of ideas...)
NAY! I AM HERE! AND I HAVE RULES, JUST GIVE ME A FEW MINUTES. I SHALL BE POSTING THESE AND YOU ALL SHALL READ THEM AND GIVE SOME FEEDBACK, THEN I SHALL THROW THEM IN A GOOGLE DOC AND GET TO WORK CREATING THE NEW THREAD. Also, the submissions I have fully received are: Avenath - Zouh
I have not fully and thoroughly scoured these for mistakes yet, however. Vironus, I have your submission but it needs a few more things tweaked. Please check your inbox. But yeah, rule things will be here shortly. @mbauers, rules are complete-ish, I'm just figuring out how I want to structure out of combat interaction and the division of things between different sections of the main thread. I'll prioritize posting what I have here over making it perfect, so we can do collaboraty things. You're welcome to do randomizy or practice fight things, but I'd prefer to hold off on our first round of real fights until the new thread is up (that should be soon, though).
@ arcane bonds: Under the current rules, you may not enchant your arcane bond for any cheaper than any player enchanting any other item. Let me explain my reasoning here, and we can discuss if it makes sense. Magic weapons are one of the most expensive options for purchase in pathfinder, and some of the absolute most effective in combat. They can singlehandedly make up for a lack of base attack bonus and provide many other powerful effects. In an arena scenario, when players have no limit on the amount they can spend on a weapon, and have no reason to buy items to be prepared for out of combat situations, magic weapons only increase in value. With absolutely no other crafting allowed, being able to enchant weapons for half price is very powerful, and can singlehandedly patch up some of a wizard or sorcerer's weaknesses. At seventh level, a wizard with an arcane bond (remember wizards also need spend less on armor etc) can have a +5 weapon, compared to a max of +3 for a fighter, putting them only off by two in terms of attack bonus, while retaining spells etc. This is also a savings of 25,000 gp, nearly the full amount that anyone of the level has to work with. In addition to this, the wizard gets the item itself, and a masterwork version, for completely free. If crafting for bonds was allowed, at third level anyone who dipped a level of wizard could have a +1 double hackbutt to true strike while wearing +1 full plate and have 950 gp to spare. The same character without such a dip would have had to shell out 8,650 for the same gear, which just gets silly. Keep in mind that this is still possible, just without the enchantments. I don't think arcane bond is a particularly underwhelming ability, but if you feel it is then don't take it. Also, the Arcane Duelist's bond still allows him to cast with somatic components while wielding it, so without arcane bond it's hard to do that whole casting in breastplate with a large shield thing, which is really cool. One note, however. The gunsmithing feat, as in PFS, does allow one to purchase firearm ammo for half price (you know how to sweet talk bullet sellers by knowing about guns, I guess). @ delaying in surprise rounds: I'll post this again. It's an answer to this question from Skip Williams, (wrote many of the 3rd edition rules). The reason this is weird in the arena is that there are two combatants, completely aware of one another, yet both in a surprise round (this can happen in normal play, but requires at least one unaware combatant). Under the rules as they are, Spock's example of gladiators A and B could occur, but it doesn't seem like such a terrible scenario to me. Keep in mind that this means a spellcaster stood in the open and started casting a spell against an opponent who had a means of charging and splatting him. The caster could have done any of the following or more: a) go behind a pillar, b) ready an action to take a 5-ft. step out of the way and do something, c) delay his own initiative into a full-action round giving him time to to both go behind a pillar and begin casting on the same round, d) cast a spell with a standard action casting time (like grease). Yes, the player who goes second will be able to see what their opponent is doing and react to it. If this seems like an advantage, keep in mind that the winner of initiative may decide either to act or to delay and respond, whereas the loser may only respond. @ consumables: I had imagined characters needing to shell out for items as they are listed, meaning only full wands/stacks, but being able to both sell back partially empty wands or partially used stacks of arrows for their full (percentage of) price. In addition to this, any charges used from the wand would be refunded so long as (charges used)*(wand price/50) is less than the refunded consumables limit.
Hey guys, Jehova checking in. Crushy workload Friday through the end of today [we're presenting in NYC before investors tomorrow :O]. I apologize for the delay and assure you that we will soon return to our regularly scheduled carnage.
Forum apparently ate last night's post >.< If you want to change a build, just submit a second one and I'll save the most recent one sent. The specific reason I want that format is for the full breakdowns of the nitty-gritty stuff. I don't expect you to forget which items or spells you have, but all of those little +1s from various places can get messy fairly quickly if they're lumped into a single number, so having each bonus fully laid out is helpful for me. It's also harder to leave anything out when creating the character if the breakdowns are there for you to fill in. If there is information that is not in the template that you want to send (such as description or backstory stuff) please mark it in a Notes section after everything else, so that it doesn't mess with the formatting. If there's something you feel should be in the statblock that I didn't leave room for, let me know.
Delaying through the surprise round is completely valid, and would indeed allow you to act first in the first round of full actions. Here is the question asked to Skip Williams, who I am going to assume knows what he's talking about. It should be noted that initiative only ever matters at the beginning of combat, after which it can be changed in all sorts of ways by delaying, readying, etc. (Sorry for stepping on your arbitrating toes, Choon!) Some of this initiative weirdness is due to us having a mutual surprise round, but keep in mind that that a high initiative is still of benefit, as the person going first could also delay until full round as well (essentially just negating the surprise round), delay or to just after you've taken your turn (even if your turn was delaying) in order to react to your actions.
Submissions are fine, since the character creation is all done and ready. I'd still appreciate if you'd post in the new recruitment thread once it goes up. I'm still finishing the other rule things (I've had stuff to do, I remain sorry that it's not fully up yet), but character submissions are welcome. I want to stress the importance of sticking strictly to the template for ease of character review. Mbauers, yours was awesome, thanks for taking the time to do that out proper. @Darkwolf, yes, the synthesis's natural attacks ruling is weird, but since it clearly states that a) the summoner's body parts can't extend past the synthesis and b) a fused character can use their own natural attacks (subject to a maximum nat attack limit), I'm assuming this to mean the eidolon sort of grows attacks to fit the synthesist's, the same way it takes on his mental ability scores and buffs. This means that the eidolon can't be using the body part for something else, however (so no using your own natural claw attacks while your eidolon is wielding swords).
Okay, okay, it's not totally done, but this should be a fairly finalized version of the character creation rules and introduction. Feedback appreciated. Will post more later.
We've all seen the endless flame wars about the comparative power of different classes. We've seen the DPR Olympics and other optimization challenges, we've seen many broken builds and many people screeching their merits or detriments at one another all across the internet. It's time to put some of these theories to the test, and to have a bone-splinteringly good time doing so. So welcome to the Pathfinder Pits! WHAT IS THIS? The Pathfinder Pits are a place for ongoing optimized play-by-post PvP. Everyone is welcome to create a character and jump on board, but only an elite few will ascend through the ranks, attaining much glory and bragging rights. The characters who join will be matched randomly against other characters of their level in single combat. Those who win gain reputation, advancing in wealth and level and generally being better than other people. Those who lose suffer a drop in reputation and are resurrected by the mysterious forces in control of the pits in order to redeem themselves or die (even more) trying. I want to make it clear before you read any further that this is a hardcore sort of 'campaign'. You may have opportunities to role-play, and everyone should have some amount of backstory and flavor for their character, but if you're not also a powerful and versatile one-on-one combatant you may find yourself frustrated. That said, there's nothing to stop you from re-rolling as often as you'd like and jumping back into the pits with a better build, so go ahead and get creative! The gameplay rules for the pits are as strict as I can make them, with the intent that nobody will have a victory taken from them by any sort of biased ruling or unnecessary house-rule. I want to keep all rules as close to the intended and accepted Pathfinder rules as possible, so that if someone else were to take over arbitration their rulings would be the same. This may mean you can't do some really cool thing because it's not technically in the rules, and for that I apologize, but when it comes to PvP the rules are quite important. As in Pathfinder Society, there is no crafting, teaching animals tricks, or leadership, but pretty much all other aspects of the game are left unchanged, giving players as much at their disposal as possible to create powerful characters. If you plan on making a character and jumping in, I recommend at least scanning through the advancement and gameplay rules beforehand, to make sure everything will work as you expect it to once you're in the pits. CREATING A PIT FIGHTER Pit fighters begin at 3rd level. A player may only have a single character at each level at a given time, but feel free to retire a character and create a new one at any time. No matter your previous record in the arena, any new character starts at 3rd level. You may have multiple characters so long as none of them are the same level. Only Paizo published material is allowed when creating a pit fighter. Anything used should be findable through The SRD, PRD, or Archives of Nethys (fills in some holes in the SRD). This is to allow an even playing field among those who own differing numbers of books. These regulations are in addition to any stricter restrictions on material below. If you have questions on something's legality, shoot me a PM. Please don't ask me about third party material, it's simply not allowed. — Abilities Pit fighters are created using 25 point buy. No score may be dropped lower than a 7 or boosted above an 18 before racial modifiers. A pit fighter may be of any (adult) age, but they take neither penalties nor gain bonuses for being old. Here is a nice place to fiddle with point buy. — Races Race can determine a great deal of what a pit fighter is capable of, especially at lower levels. I want for there to be as much room as possible to choose the perfect race for a given build, but some races are impractically unbalancing and are not allowed. Alphabetical List of Legal Races:
Catfolk
— Classes All classes, be they core, base, alternate, or prestige, are allowed in the pits. All archetypes are legal, and multiple archetypes may be stacked together provided they do not conflict in any way. Alternate classes may take archetypes from the class on which they were based (and vice versa), so long as they have each of the replaced abilities at the relevant level (a Ninja may take the Scout archetype, for example). As in Pathfinder Society gameplay, some classes are altered as a result of crafting, animal training, and leadership being disallowed. Altered Classes:
Alchemists receive the Extra Bombs feat at 1st level instead of Brew Potion. Cavaliers receive Skill Focus (Handle Animal) as a bonus feat instead of the Expert Trainer class feature. Clerics with the Nobility domain get the Persuasive feat at 8th level instead of the Leadership feat. Clerics with the Rune domain receive Spell Focus at first level instead of Scribe Scroll. Druids with the Nobility domain get the Persuasive feat at 8th level instead of the Leadership feat. Oracles with the Nature mystery receive animal growth as a bonus spell at 11th level instead of awaken. Witches may not select the cauldron hex. Wizards do not receive a bonus feat at 1st level. — Feats and Traits Item Creation, Performance, and Achievement feats are not allowed in the Pits. All other feats from legal sources are fair game. Campaign Traits are not allowed in the arena. Any other traits from legal sources should be fine, but keep in mind that there may be prerequisites that an arena character is incapable of fulfilling (pit fighters may not be members of the Pathfinder Society). Any feats or traits that require a certain place of origin or religious affiliation must be consistent with other feats, traits, and classes. — Skills There are no restrictions on skills or their usage in the arena, though those such as forgery or swim will be pretty useless in most situations. Any out of combat interaction between characters will be minimally regulated, so there may be more room here to make use of skills. Otherwise, keep in mind any prestige class prerequisites you may need to meet down the road. — Alignment There are no alignment restrictions in the pits. Though the killing of intelligent humanoids for reputation and profit is a fairly evil past time, defeating an enemy in one on one combat is somewhat more honorable than many methods, and hey, nobody stays dead. — Hit Points Pit fighters follow the Pathfinder Society method of hit point determination. Each character receives full hit points for their first level, and for each following level they receive half of their hit die, rounded up. This means that at each level after first a Wizard would gain 4 hit points, a Cleric 5, Fighter 6, and Barbarian 7. An animal companion or other non-player combatant receives one half of their hit die each level (including first), rounded down. Recalculate this hp at each new level. — Equipment Pit fighters begin with 4,500 gp of gear. Living creatures are not legal for purchase in the pits, and no living creature besides a player character may enter the arena with the exception of those gained through class features. A pit fighter may spend no more than 10% of his or her current wealth on consumable items, but there are no further restrictions on the percentage of wealth that may be spent on a given type of item or items. Keep in mind that past a certain threshold, consumable items that are used up in combat will permanently subtract from a character's wealth. See the Wealth section for more information on consumables. — Character Submission Any character is welcome in the arena, so long as they are mechanically legal. No character will be turned away for poor flavor or an unoptimized build, and as soon as a character is properly submitted and confirmed to be legal they will be put into the pool for fights. Keep in mind that the player is responsible for their character's legality. The characters will be reviewed when they are received, and anything the reviewer notices will need to be fixed before the character is accepted, but if the reviewer misses something that later makes a difference, the player is responsible (possibly suffering a fight loss and/or reputation penalty if things are screwed up too badly). Just double check your sheets, and you should be fine. but if there's anything you have a rules question on, send me a message. Here is the template for sending in a character . This should be filled out in plaintext and messaged to Pit Administration. Feel free to personally keep track of your character data wherever and however you choose, but for character submission the above template must be used. Each character must be resubmitted when changed in any way (primarily when leveling up), so keep a copy of the filled-out template to edit and send in when necessary. Hopefully Bungles is a good enough example for showing where to put information, but if you have any questions on the template, send me (not Administration) a message. Animal companions, familiars, eidolons, etc. should have their own stat block sent with their master's. ADVANCEMENT —Reputation Instead of gaining experience for defeating foes, pit fighters go up in Reputation with each successful bout, and down in reputation upon failure (death). When one character kills another, he or she gains an amount of Reputation equal to the defeated foe's level. The beaten character loses an equal amount of Reputation. The number of equal-leveled opponents one needs to defeat to level up is always three, though losing fights between victories will drop your Reputation back down and require more total victories for advancement. The following chart shows the total amount of Reputation needed to advance from the given level. Remember, the amount of Reputation gained is always the opponent's level. Unless your character is challenging or being challenged by characters of different levels, this will stay quite simple. Reputation Needed to Advance:
3rd 9
— Wealth Wealth in the pits is based only off of a character's current level. There is no change in wealth between fights unless a character has gained a new level from acquiring Reputation, or has used up wealth in combat. Wealth for each level is the average wealth for a character midway through that level based on the Pathfinder Wealth by Level Chart. Pit Fighter Wealth by Level:
3rd 4,500 gp
As mentioned in character creation, a pit fighter may not spend more than 10% of his or her wealth on consumable items. If a character uses up consumables in a fight that do not exceed 5% of his or her total wealth, the expended wealth is reimbursed at the end of the fight. Anything used up over the 5% limit is forever subtracted from the gladiator's total wealth.
@Gin, yes you must fully kill your opponent, or at least incapacitate them to such an extent that they would be dead for all intents and purposes (such as permanent petrification). Feel free to go create a thread and have at it, though you'll need to self-arbitrate in this case. Supposing you're each honest (and why shouldn't ye be, nothing's at stake) you can just pummel one another. Also, people may want to hold off until I post full wealth rules, but here is the template for character submission. The template is set up for easy copy/pasting into a PM, and should be sent to Pit Administration when fully complete. The subject of the message should read [Player Name]'s Submission: [Character Name].
As much as you want. Hopefully when I plop this fat bunch of rules down it will clear up some stuff.
Well the good news is that all fights can be practice fights :D If you're not confident in your character's abilities, go ahead and join with a different one to test the waters. You lose nothing for restarting.
As usual Darkwolf appears to be on top of things. The rules are coming along nicely, I stand by my declaration of it going up tonight (read: before I sleep), though I think I'll post it here before officially opening the new thread so y'all can have a look. In terms of templates, I was planning on using one similar to Azaelas's that I'm currently making. It provides a bit more information for someone double checking where each of those pesky little +1s are coming from.
OKAY OKAY, I KNOW I HAVE SAID SIMILAR THINGS BEFORE, BUT I AM GOING TO GET THE NEW RULES AND STUFF UP TONIGHT. I'M USING CAPS LOCK HERE TO SHOW YOU ALL JUST HOW SERIOUS I AM RIGHT NOW. We're going to be starting at third level, which I hope is alright with everyone. I think it will be better for entertaining fights at entry level, and entry level is where a good number of fights will be taking place. I am also going to cut down the amount of consumables available with compensation for each level, since I think the current trend of everyone quaffing multiple potions and busting out scrolls devalues class abilities like mutagens and buffing spells. Darkwolf, thanks for posting that. Since I'm not sure it's an official Pathfinder rule, I'm going to go ahead and add to my rules the following: Any aspect of a character that is capable of lasting indefinitely (like an Eidolon suit or Headband of Intellect) can be used to meet prerequisites for feats/abilities/prestige classes, though if the character loses access to it they also lose access to anything qualify for. If you go ahead and take a level of Master of Storms despite all of your Fly ranks sitting in a Headband of Intellect, and some gung-ho guy sunders it, BOOM there go all your spells. You would retain BAB, Saves, and hp from the class, but wouldn't be able to access any of its nonsense until you again qualify.
All Elmer did with hands and dropping things was two-hand a scimitar for increased damage when he was only able to get off a single attack. I was interested to learn that the claw evolution only specifies 'limbs', not hands :P
To be clear on Elmer's attacks, the claw attacks are with his feet, not the limbs holding the scimitars (there is precedence for such shenanigans, see velociraptors). About carrying capacity, yes you'll need to keep track of that, and no you don't need to bring everything you own into the arena. Unless you plan to prepare spells mid-combat, spellbooks can be left in your quarters or what not.
MWF isn't limited to monsters, it merely requires enough limbs to make use of it.
>.<;; I was hoping nobody saw that. I read back through it and snorted loudly. And indeed, that happened to poor Kirk.
Certainly not a restriction on free actions, just letting you know you're not restricted to one per turn. To use an example from another fight, Elmer dropped a weapon, (free action), put two hands on a scimitar (free action), then took his hand off of the scimitar after attacking (free action) and used a weapon cord to reacquire the dropped weapon (swift action). Elmer has six arms, and it would be legal to do this with each set of three in a single turn.
Starting at first level is out, it was just a preference check between second and third.
It's somewhat unfortunate (for PvP) in Pathfinder that rolls play such a large part of the game. It does make things quite exciting though, and allows for some of those moments where everyone just goes woooooooooooah, which are really fun. There aren't many ways around the randomness problem, and I understand that luck may be a frustrating aspect of who progresses how quickly in the arena. I think that having a character progress after any three victories, regardless of how often he or she loses will lead to a bloat in the number of characters who actively are gaining levels. Since anyone can just walk in off of the street and join the Pits, defeating any three people regardless of losses would be quite possible for pretty much anyone with an alright build (especially if/when there are even more combatants). This sets the bar lower for the next tier, which in turn allows people in that tier to advance more easily (by defeating people who wouldn't have gotten to that tier if it weren't for the newbies/poor builds at the starting level). I want advancement to be big deal, with only the best fighters actually gaining higher levels (part of the idea of the arena was to see how optimal some of those builds that take a while to get going actually are when they can't start at that level). I recognize that the luck of the die often has as much of an effect at low levels as the builds themselves, but I see no reason why luck isn't an important trait for a pit fighter to possess (not to mention that how your build fares when the dice are against them is a part of optimization). I do think that luck will eventually smooth out over a number of fights. I don't think a truly good build will be stuck forever at one level due to unluckiness. I also don't think there is any way to skew the advancement system further in favor of advancement without making it very complicated or allowing characters to advance in levels despite winning only only half of their fights. I'd prefer not do to either of these things, so if people will be able to tolerate a 3 Reputation per level advancement system, I would prefer to stick to that for now (the current system does not require winning three in a row. Winning 2, losing 1, then winning 2 more will also advance a character, which allows for one bad fight without losing too much momentum). In regards to the randomness, I'm toying with the idea of bumping up the starting level to third, on the theory that first and second level are both much more fun in a regular campaign than they are in this setting, and third level is when stuff like BAB progression, base saves, and spell levels actually start to matter more. It also allows for two feats and a much higher number of class combinations, allowing for more unique starting builds (yay). This might help take the edge a little off of the random outcomes, and perhaps let people feel like they can make their builds a bit closer to what they want them to be long-term, but perhaps it's straying too far from the 'all your progression is in the arena' thing. Sound off and let me know if you have strong preferences one way or another. @Vironus, welcome aboard!
I shan't be annoyed or frustrated, and hopefully everyone can be a little patient as long as we actually do get going soon. I'm glad you guys enjoy the arena so much. I'm working on getting things off of the grounds without snubbing real life stuff overmuch. Should have some time this evening.
Updated Current Map (in the campaign information tab) to the actual Current Map.
Grizzlegut vs. Malar / / Elmer vs. Kirk / / Eko vs. Shigeharu / / Bruno vs. Vatale / / m'Shimu vs. Garr'ak / / Rolg vs. Aurum
Adding in also then, m'Shimu vs. Garr'ak (the battle of the apostrophes).
Hirtz, what is that character's name?
@Spock, I'm fine changing the lettering/numbering. I had it set up the way I did because there are more columns than rows, and I figured fewer letters was easier, but if it makes things better to switch them it's not a problem. Anyone else have an opinion on this? @Hirtz, I'm hoping so (late tomorrow), but I really can't promise. A good old friend of mine is in town, and I haven't gotten a chance to see him yet, so that may be taking some priority. I'm putting up another testing round right now, but if you're waiting on the full one that might not help with your battle-hankering, in which case I'm sorry :( Randomization:
Grizzlegut
Which gives us: Second Level: Grizzlegut vs. Malar
Third Level: Rolg vs. Aurum If I've lost track of anyone, or somebody isn't actually in for battles right now (is Kirk still active?) Let me know (part of full arena is better organization of all that). Battles should be up within two hours, I need to do some other things,
Charge splat is still valid, just not in the surprise round unless your mount is not large sized D:
@imimrtl, Everyone will need to resubmit 1 character at level two, in a specific format which I will give. These will be stored by me in one place for maximum checking and organizational goodness. @Darkwolf, I just learned that crossing corner rule myself, though I don't think I've tried to do it myself. I've spent some time shuffling the map around, and it's quite possible to allow room for huge creatures by adding one row to make the entrances three squares wide and moving the columns each one square towards the middle. Unfortunately, this puts us back in the position we were originally in, which is that it allows a character with a decent ride check to do a first-turn charge-splat quite easily, with no chance for their opponent to react with sufficient initiative. I really don't want to actively nerf class abilities, I much prefer making the preventative measures matters of logistics (can't start mounted) and space (no room for large creature in middle lane first turn) as opposed to hard bans on anything. I'm not sure why you couldn't simply a huge the eidolon squeeze into the arena. It would take a -4 to AC and attacks while squeezing, and would need to take two squares of movement per square to get out, but it could conceivably fit under the rules you posted above. It would also be possible in later levels to summon a huge eidolon through the second level spell, or begin with a large eidolon and enlarge it once past the pillars. If you have another idea of how to allow more space without inadvertently overpowering other stuff, let me know.
I was originally not planning on allowing huge things to walk through the doors and such... I hadn't realized that was the planning of certain builds though. In the original arena map there is not space for a huge creature to start next to their master, nor for one to fit past the columns if it wanted to go to the outer area. I will look at the map and see how that might work, if it's viable, I'd like to at least allow hugeness to be possible, if not optimal. Let me see. Keep in mind that a huge creature would have other challenges, such as not being able to fit into the areas past the double-columns, which I think makes sense. People would start in either the 10 or 11 column, as they choose. I would assume they would just sort of write this down in their character sheet or something, and can switch it up whenever they like. I'm hoping it won't matter terribly much. Any square that is on that map at all (isn't fully gray) is a normal square. Those 5-foot steps aren't possible because the movement rules state, "You can't move diagonally past a corner (even by taking a 5-foot step)." This also implies that in Pathfinder diagonal 5-foot steps are legal, which I was not fully sure of, though I suppose it makes complete sense with the 5-10-5 rule for diagonal movement. There is no trouble with moving between spaces like L14 and L13. This is not a corner (meaning a full square of wall). There are no 'half-full' squares on this map, everything is ground or a solid barrier.
Yep, wands only require having the spell on your class list. You can dip a level of wizard and forever use a wand of any level without checks. It doesn't matter who made it or how much it costs. If we see those cheap items becoming far too powerful we can have a chat, but for now I still want to keep the actual rules as loose as possible. @Kurama, hello, hello, thanks for joining and the PMs! @Eben, I'm going to update that ETA to Friday. I know it's taking a bit longer than I'd hoped, but trust me, things are progressing. Here's what I'm still working on: • Deciding how to set up the out of combat stuff so that it can be used more easily and is more fun, and then writing up an explanation of that. • Creating a posting etiquette explanation, about how you shouldn't be mean despite fighting other players, the proper formatting of posts within combat, and other forum-related things. Someone had mentioned examples of proper combat posts, which I liked. • Compiling a comprehensive list of all 'house rules' that aren't specific to the function of the arena fights, meaning mechanical changes (such as the being blind/invisible ruling) that are either direct departures from the rules because the rules are sometimes really bad, or that are due to the rulings being so vague that I needed to make a call myself. This would probably also include a list of long-running arguments that I would make rulings on (for example, you cannot use pounce with manufactured iterative attacks, because you cannot strike with each weapon at once and gain the momentum of the charge). This whole section will be in the back of the rulebook I'm making, and will probably be the most edited. Any rule-calls I make are up for discussion and argument, as always. I'm creating a PvP rulebook by the name of Pathfinder Pits. Hopefully it will be nice enough that if at any point I can't properly arbitrate everything it can be easily picked up by someone else and used easily. Sneak Preview Here's our new map. The shape is slightly changed, with the biggest difference being a two square wide entrance (need to have those camels be able to enter). Also, because I've seen it come up a few times now, there is no screening process for recruitment beyond your character being mechanically legal. The other players are the judge of how viable your character is based on how mercilessly they slaughter it. You may have any number of arena characters, but you may never have more than one of each level active at any given time, since the fights are chosen randomly from among the active players of each level. Finally, in the interest of not losing momentum, can I have a sound-off from all currently available players? Let's have a final round of testing, using the new map and such.
That one is mine.
Not until somebody breaks them so horribly that we have no choice :D
Since the Character Advancement Chart gives first-level wealth by class, I assume that its wealth-by-level values are for a character that has just gained that level. Since in the arena there is no actual adventuring and gathering of loots (or experience), characters are considered to be an average character of their level (not one who has just attained that level). If it helps to think of everyone starting at level 2.5 and advancing from there, that works too. For an average second level adventurer strictly following WBL, 2000 gp is just about normal wealth.
I was thinking only fully-charged wands, and if it makes things nicer we could extend this to ammunition too (must be bought in groups of 50). The 20%/10% thing also does sound good, let me check how that matches up with some common consumables at each level.
Alright, I've gotten things well underway for a nice pretty rulebook and overhaul of our dear arena. I need desperately to sleep, so I won't be putting up fights just yet (sorry to anyone anxiously waiting), but here are the new and improved rules for wealth-by-level and consumables. Each character has wealth as shown below, and may spend up to 1/4 of this total wealth (rounded down to the nearest 100 gp) in consumable items (anything that may be 'used up' in the course of normal usage). One half of this value (~1/8 of total wealth) will be reimbursed after each fight if used up, to an exact amount. Any consumables used up totaling more than this value will permanently detract from wealth, though amount of consumables allowed in future fights is still calculated from the usual wealth-by-level. Note that the wealth for each level has been bumped up to reflect it staying static between fights. These values are the average between a character's current level and the level above, and tend to reflect the approximate wealth a combatant would have after winning one and a half matches against an equal-level opponent under the old rules. While I appreciate that it's fun to get gold after each victory, I feel that incremental wealth gain (especially at lower levels) can easily lead to a snowball type effect where combatants become more effective the more battles in a row they win. Hopefully the gain of Reputation (which will be replacing VP), and bragging rights will be enough of a prize. I'd appreciate feedback on these changes, especially those to the consumable rules. It does mean that a melee combatant can now walk into each fight loaded up with 5 potions, and suffer no long term wealth consequences, win or lose. It also means that archers won't need to worry about arrow loss, and some of the cool one-off wondrous items might see more usage. Keep in mind that with the hard limit different from the replaceable limit, it's also possible to bring a variety of consumables into a battle, choose the one or ones most suited to the situation, and sell the rest back after the battle. The only potential problem I see here is that classes with little use for consumables may find themselves up agains scrolls, potions, and wands more than they would prefer, but hopefully their extra 25% permanent wealth will make up for this.
LevelWealthConsumableReplacable 2nd ____2,000 gp______500 gp________250 gp
I'm presently working on a rulebook for the full arena, but in case it wasn't clear, I fully support and endorse all this private arena nonsense! Have at each other and such. If I don't have final arena stuff about done by tonight, I'll set up some more official fights. There's also the matter of the consumables question, which I or we will need to answer for that rulebook to be accurate.
Llaelian and Hanzou, feel free to PM me with questions or simply ask them in the thread, (which might be better because I'll be quite busy for the rest of today and most of the time this weekend). Anything specific to a character build should be PMed though. Character death is definitely not permanent, though your arena record is. There is no experience penalty upon death, but if you currently have VP you'll lose some from a loss. We're currently working on changing the wealth system (at this point I'm leaning towards static wealth per level) and the way consumables are calculated. The arena is still technically in the 'testing' phase, although we've done a good number of fights so far, so this weekend/early next week a full version (with its own recruitment thread) should be going up. Your characters will need to be resubmitted there once it's live (all characters will be reset to base level and gold), and if you want to wait until that's going on and them jump on board, that's fine. If you've already got characters pretty much ready to go, however, I'll probably be putting up a (hopefully) final testing round tomorrow, depending on how many people are sitting around without fights.
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