DM RichD's Council Of Thieves Campaign

Game Master Briccone

If you want me to add your leftover coins to keep everything together I can. Otherwise once you are out of your starting cash then everything can be on the spreadsheet for RchD to view.

Tal just has the 1 potion of cure mod so I will take another cure light or 2 if no one wants to claim them. I don't think Tal will need them hopefully with his AC so high but you never know.

Raveen claims 3 CLW potions.

Naberius stares at the papers, concealing a sudden rush of eagerness by hiding his face with his mug, taking a long sip of wine before looking through the documents with more care.

A way out. I could leave this accursed place and never return...

Oh my! Have I just given Naberius an In-Character opportunity to escape this AP?

Loving the dialogue, by the way.

Oh my! Have I just given Naberius an In-Character opportunity to escape this AP?

Absalom, here I come! :D

Nah, he will stick around for a while. Things are getting interesting, even if he might not admit it. Having the option of getting the hell out Westcrown if things get too rough definitely helps to soothe him for a while, though...

Loving the dialogue, by the way.

Me too. Hopefully people aren't getting too fed up with our loquaciousness... Naberius and Raveen really seem to love the sound of their own voices. :P

Raveen Liquean wrote:

Oh my! Have I just given Naberius an In-Character opportunity to escape this AP?

Absalom, here I come! :D

Nah, he will stick around for a while. Things are getting interesting, even if he might not admit it. Having the option of getting the hell out Westcrown if things get too rough definitely helps to soothe him for a while, though...

And they say Raveen doesn't know how to give presents...

Raveen Liquean wrote:

Loving the dialogue, by the way.

Me too. Hopefully people aren't getting too fed up with our loquaciousness... Naberius and Raveen really seem to love the sound of their own voices. :P

Adrien Brody and Ben Barnes discussing how best to oust Nazis and the Godfather! What's not to love?!

Just like Face Plan.
Face Plan will have its day of reckoning.

Now that I think about it, Sloth might be quite fitting for Naberius after all... Again, not that he would admit it. He has a very apathetic personality, and some highly conservative world views. He is definitely not a very physically active person, either.

Then again, he definitely fits under Envy and Pride as well.

Monday is definitely Gluttony, overindulgence of everything, food, wine, pleasure,...

Yeah, I can see that, but she definitely falls under Lust as well... :)

She;s not lustful! She's just surrounded by sexy people she wants to sleep with.

It is true that this is a very attractive group... I think our average Charisma score is 14 (not counting the ghost and the raven).

Poor familiars and companions...

Hey don't forget the high charisma fighter here...oh yeah, I am the cantankerous one with the cha of 8!

Well, without Tal the average would be 16. At least he is more charismatic than Vasco... :D

Waiting on our dear DM.

Having a busy weekend. Will post tomorrow.

S'okay, Monday and Mera can tease Nabe till then :3

I so wish I had Tal know something about magic as I would love to jump in with Monday giving Naberius a hard time...especially if the apprentice is a transmuter who specializes in enlarge person.

HA!

Narrowing her eyes in interested thought she waits a momemt before forcing herself back into his lap, happily leaning back as she refilled her own glass she turns to nuzzle Vasco slightly before she went about downing her drink.

Naberius has deliberately remained standing, specifically to avoid this eventuality. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that in a post at some point. :)

Oh really? Damn, musta missed that in all the talking :3

Edit: and fixed!

@Guard Tower: Considering that Westcrown's architecture is Gothic (full of ledges, handholds, etc.), I guess that would be a DC 15, according to the PRD. Since it is a tower (with corners that are easy to grab) and not a wall, I can reasonably assume it would be DC 10 for a 60 ft high tower (which is my own assumption).

@Speed Kill: Just thought of something: Could Raveen deal an additional effect when sneak attacking a completely unaware target?
Something cinematic...
He kicked the Tiefling's back of the leg, forcing him down, while holding him up by the chin in his fall. He spared a single remorseless look, and plunged his cold knife deeply in the Tiefling's exposed throat--splattering unnaturally hot blood across the cool stones and a splash of wayward blood against the emotionless fox-mask.
"You've been a bad child," the masked man said, as the gentle sound of dripping blood echoed softly in the night.

Santa's Assassins: You get DEATH for Christmas.

Mostly something out of Prince of Persia's assassination scenes.

Then Vasco feeds on his eyes as Raveen infiltrates from the top. Don't worry, the image does not contain an actual eye.
But the legends of ravens eating the eyes of a creature first before the rest of its body are legends for a reason: It's creepy!

Any thoughts, DM?
Of course, it can also work normally via two attack rolls (1 surprise round), but it would be far less dramatic.

@Guard Tower: Considering that Westcrown's architecture is Gothic (full of ledges, handholds, etc.), I guess that would be a DC 15, according to the PRD. Since it is a tower (with corners that are easy to grab) and not a wall, I can reasonably assume it would be DC 10 for a 60 ft high tower (which is my own assumption).

Considering it is a temple to Erastil, it is likely to be more plain than average. They are big on practicality. I could set you up with monkey fish, assuming I have the time to learn it.

Any thoughts, DM?

Of course, it can also work normally via two attack rolls (1 surprise round), but it would be far less dramatic.

If Naberius can put the target to sleep, there would be a guaranteed coup de grace without any bending of the rules. It is far less cinematic than what you described, of course. :)

There is also the risk that if he fails, the sentry could be alerted...

I guess that is worth asking: would the target of the spell be aware that he was being put to sleep if he can't see or hear Naberius casting the spell? Assuming he is more than 60 feet away in a dark alley or something, he would probably not audible or visible from the tower. Would the sentry be aware of something affecting his mind, or would they just think they were dozing off?

Then Vasco feeds on his eyes as Raveen infiltrates from the top. Don't worry, the image does not contain an actual eye.

But the legends of ravens eating the eyes of a creature first before the rest of its body are legends for a reason: It's creepy!

"Caw! You can have them. I'm not hungry."

If Naberius can put the target to sleep, there would be a guaranteed coup de grace without any bending of the rules. It is far less cinematic than what you described, of course. :)

I have Lullaby which could help with this a little bit.

Yes, definitely. The penalty on Perception checks will be helpful as well, even if the sentry doesn't fall asleep...

Masked Conspirator wrote:

@Guard Tower: Considering that Westcrown's architecture is Gothic (full of ledges, handholds, etc.), I guess that would be a DC 15, according to the PRD. Since it is a tower (with corners that are easy to grab) and not a wall, I can reasonably assume it would be DC 10 for a 60 ft high tower (which is my own assumption).

Considering it is a temple to Erastil, it is likely to be more plain than average. They are big on practicality. I could set you up with monkey fish, assuming I have the time to learn it.

Quite right. I suppose this looks fitting. I imagined that gods are seen differently in every place--so that even Old Deadeye can be worshipped in a Cheliaxian-designed temple. Besides--abandoned temple must have ivy or moss that grant a circumstance bonus, no?

But regarding [Monkeyfish], perhaps we can procure a scroll from a shop--costs less time and effort.
What is it, 50 gp?

Masked Conspirator wrote:

Any thoughts, DM?

Of course, it can also work normally via two attack rolls (1 surprise round), but it would be far less dramatic.

If Naberius can put the target to sleep, there would be a guaranteed coup de grace without any bending of the rules. It is far less cinematic than what you described, of course. :)

There is also the risk that if he fails, the sentry could be alerted...

Raveen would not ask so from Naberius. There are better uses for a spell slot than (possibly) taking out a lone sentry--especially if they have a bigger fight on their hands than they first thought!

So it stems from the 'if you want something done, do it yourself' principle. The man can climb up quickly, take out the sentry with a possibly 2d6 damage at the surprise round--and perhaps 2d6 on the next round*, and climb (or jump) down with +9 Acrobatics--or even survey the place from the top to get a better assessment of the enemies' numbers.
Besides, he is the only one who can (sort of) see in the dark, although it is not really seeing in the dark as much as seeing through the shadows.

*Assuming a 'no' on the a speedkill.

I guess that is worth asking: would the target of the spell be aware that he was being put to sleep if he can't see or hear Naberius casting the spell? Assuming he is more than 60 feet away in a dark alley or something, he would probably not audible or visible from the tower. Would the sentry be aware of something affecting his mind, or would they just think they were dozing off?

Good question. The rules were never clear (or perfect)--that's why we need rule-bending and on-the-spot rulings by DMs.

But otherwise, sentries are trained to switch out whenever they feel tired. So they'd probably switch out and a new one would enter.

At any rate, I'd rather not spend resources or effort on something Raveen should be able to do for free. With a climbing kit, his bonus would be +6. Taking Monday's kiss-less [Guidance], he can take 8 (since he can't take 10--nervous drawback) versus a DC of 15 (if it's not 10). Throw in a Stealth check and we have this in the proverbial bag.
If things go bad, we do have two spellcasters able to cast sleep, no?

Of course...Raveen can go all Parkour and I can ask the DM for an Acrobatics check to climb---utilizing surroundings and nearby ledges, jumping across pits, etc. for a better replication of Assassin's Creed/Prince of Persia instead of a bottom-up approach--but I'm saving my Test-the-DM's-patience card for the assassination idea.
Rogues always felt like they sort of lacked something...rogue-like...like actually slitting throats (and let the -10 to Called Shots be damned).

Quite right. I suppose this looks fitting. I imagined that gods are seen differently in every place--so that even Old Deadeye can be worshipped in a Cheliaxian-designed temple. Besides--abandoned temple must have ivy or moss that grant a circumstance bonus, no?

The first pic is pretty much what I imagined, though we shouldn't be making assumptions. Could we get a description of the place, Mr. GM? Based on our intelligence so far, of course...

But regarding [Monkeyfish], perhaps we can procure a scroll from a shop--costs less time and effort.

What is it, 50 gp?

I'd rather just learn the spell, if we are going to use it. It costs merely 15 gp to loan someone else's spellbook for a 1st level spell, and it takes just an hour to copy it. Just let me know if you need it.

Raveen would not ask so from Naberius. There are better uses for a spell slot than (possibly) taking out a lone sentry--especially if they have a bigger fight on their hands than they first thought!

As you wish. It might be worth it, unless the GM let's you do your instakill on the sentry. Mera might still want to cast Lullaby to make the sneaking a bit easier.

Here's what went through his head: Tal can't reliably climb with his armor/shield and down quick enough; Mera is best placed as support (and IC is sort of still new to this); Naberius's spellcasting capabilities are not fully realized, nor is he that good of a climber; and Monday has not featured long enough in battle for Raveen to evaluate accurately--he sure is not ready to give Tuesday such a critical task--even if it can be done easily OOC.

I'm not going to argue that. Raveen is obviously the most qualified person for the job. With monkey fish we might get another person up there, but there isn't really much point in doing so.

Rogues always felt like they sort of lacked something...rogue-like...like actually slitting throats (and let the -10 to Called Shots be damned).

I'm usually against such changes, because they tend to make sneaky types too powerful. Imagine those same rules being used against the PCs... I don't fancy getting couped due to my atrocious Perception score!

As you might have noticed, I'm overly cautious about house-ruling in general. Sorry if it seems like I'm trying shoot down all your suggestions, but I quite like the system as it is. :P

Second the idea of not house ruling too much as the tables can turned just as easily against us. As for the tower assault Tal could accompany Raveen as he has a +7 to climb in his armor and a +1 to stealth. Not the best stealth but still positive.

Masked Conspirator wrote:

But regarding [Monkeyfish], perhaps we can procure a scroll from a shop--costs less time and effort.

What is it, 50 gp?

I'd rather just learn the spell, if we are going to use it. It costs merely 15 gp to loan someone else's spellbook for a 1st level spell, and it takes just an hour to copy it. Just let me know if you need it.

Makes sense. Giving climb speed also grants the ability to take 10 and +8 racial bonus, so Raveen can use accelerated climbing.

I'm usually against such changes, because they tend to make sneaky types too powerful. Imagine those same rules being used against the PCs... I don't fancy getting couped due to my atrocious Perception score!

As you might have noticed, I'm overly cautious about house-ruling in general. Sorry if it seems like I'm trying shoot down all your suggestions, but I quite like the system as it is. :P

I understand all too well, don't worry about hurting my feelings.

Second the idea of not house ruling too much as the tables can turned just as easily against us. As for the tower assault Tal could accompany Raveen as he has a +7 to climb in his armor and a +1 to stealth. Not the best stealth but still positive.

I get your point.

That is without the shield, right? I don't think the rules allow climbing with one hand.

But really, the lack of existing ruling comes out as very artificial--almost transparently so. If any schmuck IRL can do it, a specialized rogue should, too. Right?
To put this in perspective and to address your concerns, Naberius (as well as everyone else) has to take that abysmal Perception check (along with an additional -10) when he's sleeping and be coup'd--all RAW. That's why we need sentries: to defeat the rule, and sentries can be taken out. In fact, that's what we're doing right now.
A thief can take 20 on Disable Device checks versus locks to unlock Lily's door in the middle of the night, and even disarm Alarm traps in Mera's room (had she any), and the DM can actually legitimately kill any of us off-screen whenever he wishes (by rolling for us, in 3.5 fashion). In some cases, even taking 20 won't do anything when you're asleep.

Speaking of which, does Naberius cast [Alarm] on a radius around the entry point of a room? I've had my paranoia awarded before, let me tell you...

It's a dangerous world--but the idea itself is not illogical or alien.
It really comes down to a simple choice: Accommodate player initiative and bring the game closer to realism (and drama), or stick with tabletop miniatures rules (which 3.5/Pathfinder undeniably is)?
It's like when a friend of mine fought against a giant-sized creature (pretty much like the example above).

To get the point across, it's sort of like Feat Taxes.. Does a character really need a feat to 'fight with finesse' (Weapon Finesse) or 'sacrifice accuracy for more damage' (Power Attack) or 'command willing people' (Leadership)? Heck, 'they're easier to hit when they're close' even needs a feat (Point-Blank Shot)!
On an amusing note, 2/4 are feats I took already. xD
It's on the same vein.

But to state the obvious and give credit where it's due, RichD has been very receptive to our ideas so far. We've got an enlightened DM--glad I'm rolling with him.

Tuesday in incorporeal form could fly up and spook the guard, but that'd be all he could do.

Tuesday in incorporeal form could fly up and spook the guard, but that'd be all he could do.

'Go stand watch!' he said. 'As if there is anything to watch,' Teneth the Tiefling thought dully. The sleepy city looked as if it was ripe for the taking. In fact, throw a few torches and it would be a definite improvement. A cold breeze passed by his exposed flesh.

What was that? he thought, jumping. He looked about, scanning the area. He saw nothing. 'Must've just been my imagination' he laughed nervously.
He rested, knowing better than to raise the alarm again without proper cause. Little did he see of the ethereal hands descending from solid stone--turning sickly real as they approached, almost as if a bird of prey descending on a helpless rabbit. 'They will squeal' he thought--but was that thought truly his? The world darkened around him, as a ghostly laugh shook in his mind.

Could Tuesday shift only a part of his body? Like poke his hands out of the stone-work for a grapple or a punch.

To clarify on my previous point: I do not ask for a rogue-specific ruling. It may be a Stealth ruling, a combat maneuver, a sneak attack feature, or a general combat option, like the coup de grace for sleeping targets. It may even reasonably incorporate a 'studying' mechanic like Death Attack.

Not at this level sadly, he's just limited to imitating the Mage Hand spell atm... Get him some Ghost Touched gauntlets or weapon though...

*evil grin*

But really, the lack of existing ruling comes out as very artificial--almost transparently so. If any schmuck IRL can do it, a specialized rogue should, too. Right?

To put this in perspective and to address your concerns, Naberius (as well as everyone else) has to take that abysmal Perception check (along with an additional -10) when he's sleeping and be coup'd--all RAW. That's why we need sentries: to defeat the rule, and sentries can be taken out. In fact, that's what we're doing right now.

To clarify on my previous point: I do not ask for a rogue-specific ruling. It may be a Stealth ruling, a combat maneuver, a sneak attack feature, or a general combat option, like the coup de grace for sleeping targets. It may even reasonably incorporate a 'studying' mechanic like Death Attack.

The way I see it, getting caught while sleeping is quite different from being ambushed while awake. Just because you are able to sneak up behind someone and is not an 100% guarantee of nicking the correct arteries, or cutting deep enough to completely sever the larynx. They might move at a critical moment, and there is no guarantee that they do not manage to fight back even if they are severely wounded.

Not that I claim to be an expert on such things or anything... :P

Regardless of realism, or lack thereof, I would be extremely wary about adding the option of essentially couping creatures that are not helpless. From purely rules standpoint, that makes Stealth dangerously powerful. It also devalues the classes and prestige classes that specialise in such things. I think that sneak attack does an adequate job of portraying the rogue's ability to take advantage of an unaware opponent. Of course it is not going to be fool-proof at lower levels, but I find it works quite well later on. Not everyone is qualified to be a master assassin from the beginning of their criminal career, after all.

Speaking of which, does Naberius cast [Alarm] on a radius around the entry point of a room? I've had my paranoia awarded before, let me tell you...

We should definitely take some precautions, but I don't think we are quite at the stage where we need to be worried about dodging assassins. At least I sincerely hope we don't, or this might be a short campaign... :D

If Nabe is scared he can always spend the night with the Healer (ФwФ)

Raveen would not ask so from Naberius. There are better uses for a spell slot than (possibly) taking out a lone sentry--especially if they have a bigger fight on their hands than they first thought!

I don't mean to backtrack, but I'm not so sure it's a complete waste. If that sentry doesn't get silenced properly then we lose the element of surprise and that changes the dynamics of what is to come. I don't see a properly utilized spell as a waste.

If we do nothing but prepare that day and do not use other spells we essentially have our full compliment of spells from all three casters for the assault which should be overwhelmingly sufficient.

If Nabe is scared he can always spend the night with the Healer (ФwФ)

And which one of us is the healer again? ^^

I forgot Bards can get Cure spells as well.

Addendum:

If Nabe gets scared he can spend the night with the Healers!

@Mera:
What I'm saying that such a spell works best as a contingency if the assassination fails--not as the main (possibly only) shot. I encourage having the spellcasters hold the spell until Raveen fails or succeeds.
Vasco can wake Raveen up if he's caught in the AoE. Don't bite out his eyes, please.

Speaking of contingencies, Raveen would need a Feather Fall scroll (if he fell off) and some kind of distracting item/spell--perhaps a tanglefoot bag or an Alchemist's Acid. UMD can activate scrolls once they are deciphered, no?
As I see it, he can take advantage of his position and split the existing group of Tieflings further (by seeming as if a team of assassins dropped through the roof), which would allow the existing troop to half (or third) their forces further. He can then run back to the group while the Tieflings search for him, buying us a few rounds.

@Naberius:
Let's be flexible in looking at this.

Regardless of realism, or lack thereof, I would be extremely wary about adding the option of essentially couping creatures that are not helpless. From purely rules standpoint, that makes Stealth dangerously powerful. It also devalues the classes and prestige classes that specialise in such things. I think that sneak attack does an adequate job of portraying the rogue's ability to take advantage of an unaware opponent. Of course it is not going to be fool-proof at lower levels, but I find it works quite well later on. Not everyone is qualified to be a master assassin from the beginning of their criminal career, after all.

The prestige class itself is already devalued by the much better [Assassinate] Ninja and Slayer talents--that do not require multiclassing at all, and have better rules and DC scaling. That's a thing with power creep--it renders many things obsolete.

But really, it doesn't even need to be a coup de grace at all, if that is the concern (which I never denied is a valid one). That's just the easiest way to get it done.
By the by--it's not actually that difficult: covert operatives, Nyudaki No Jitsu, and a plethora of military knowledge are centered around Sentry Neutralization reminds us that it can be done.
Best of all, we have the mechanics to get it done in the game already if we care to search. You should check up how British operatives disposed of German sentries in WWII. Knifes, garrotes, and hand-to-hand combat, etc. Not a very comfortable series of documentaries (at least if you're a healthy human being), let me tell you...but very informative.

SLITTING THE THROAT

Spring forward and cup the enemy chin with the left palm, lifting it clear of the throat. Draw the blade across the throat at the level of the cricoid cartilage, beginning at the hilt and stroking to the tip. This attack slices the trachea, preventing any sort of outcry; then cuts deeper, severing the carotid sheath. The sentry dies in twelve seconds due to oxygen starvation of the brain Two rounds--long enough for a Heal check to stabilize. Unconsciousness occurs in five seconds One round.

Brachial Stun, Throat Cut. This technique relies on complete mental stunning to enable the soldier to cut the sentry's throat, severing the trachea and carotid arteries. Death results within 5 to 20 seconds. Some sounds are emitted from the exposed trachea, but the throat can be cut before the sentry can recover from the effect of the stunning strike and cry out. The soldier silently approaches to within striking range of the sentry (Figure 7-1, Step 1). The soldier strikes the side of the sentry's neck with the knife butt or a hammer fist strike (Figure 7-1, Step 2), which completely stuns the sentry for three to seven seconds. He then uses his body weight to direct the sentry's body to sink in one direction and uses his other hand to twist the sentry's head to the side, deeply cutting the throat across the front in the opposite direction (Figure 7-1, Step 3). He executes the entire length of the blade in a slicing motion. The sentry's sinking body provides most of the force--not the soldier's upper-arm strength (Figure 7-1, Step 4).

Source: FM 21-150 (US Army Combat Training Field Manual)

The pose is called the One-Hand Smother. Scary.
But if we address mechanics:

Suggestions
It could be like Sap Master, and can double sneak attack damage (which is essentially what already happens with a successful surprise round + good initiative), or could be like the Blackguard's Cruelty ability, inflicting a condition ([Silenced] or [Sickened] come to mind), or may even replicate Underhanded, which maximizes sneak attack damage (only Charisma modifier/day, which sort of places it under the [Infuriatingly Limited] and [Situational Talents] categories of talents).

I'd recommend the last myself. Simple and sweet--dangerous, but an existing option.
Since Raveen has Heal as a class skill (with a +6 bonus to boot; trait), I think it is reasonable for him to pass a Heal check first to apply one of the above--like Underhanded/Cruelty/Sap Master/or a direct coup de grace. After all, if one man has the ability to rend space and teleport, another should be able to stab an exposed throat.

Wanted to post before but it seems the website was down....

Description of Temple

The old temple has a small bell tower jutting from the
southeast corner—the large (but very weathered) bow and-arrow symbol on the bell tower clearly indicates that
this used to be a temple of Erastil. Windows are 4 feet off
the ground, 2 feet wide, and 4 feet tall, and are far too
grimy on the inside to look through. The bottom 3 feet of
the walls are mortared stone, the rest is old wood, with a
clay tile roof.

Around the temple are the following old, abandoned homes/shops: A chair-carpenter, a shoemaker, a tailor, and woodcarver.

Any thoughts, DM?

Of course, it can also work normally via two attack rolls (1 surprise round), but it would be far less dramatic.

If you can make it to the top without been noticed then you wll have a surprise round attack or coup de gras if the sentry is sleeping (magically or otherwise). There is a bronze bell in the tower that the sentry will probably ring if he spots anything suspicious.

I guess that is worth asking: would the target of the spell be aware that he was being put to sleep if he can't see or hear Naberius casting the spell? Assuming he is more than 60 feet away in a dark alley or something, he would probably not audible or visible from the tower. Would the sentry be aware of something affecting his mind, or would they just think they were dozing off?

Per the PRD and this is how we play it at our tabletop game:

Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

So if the sentry makes his saving throw against the sleep spell, he will know 'something ain't right', if that is cause enough for him to ring the bell would be another matter.

and the DM can actually legitimately kill any of us off-screen whenever he wishes

Would I do that? ;)

Description of Temple

The old temple has a small bell tower jutting from the
southeast corner—the large (but very weathered) bow and-arrow symbol on the bell tower clearly indicates that this used to be a temple of Erastil. Windows are 4 feet off the ground, 2 feet wide, and 4 feet tall, and are far too grimy on the inside to look through. The bottom 3 feet of the walls are mortared stone, the rest is old wood, with a clay tile roof.
Around the temple are the following old, abandoned homes/shops: A chair-carpenter, a shoemaker, a tailor, and woodcarver.

Hmm...perhaps we can check the other buildings for ways in through rotten walls or something...

Raveen wrote:

Any thoughts, DM?

Of course, it can also work normally via two attack rolls (1 surprise round), but it would be far less dramatic.

If you can make it to the top without been noticed then you wll have a surprise round attack or coup de gras if the sentry is sleeping (magically or otherwise). There is a bronze bell in the tower that the sentry will probably ring if he spots anything suspicious.

Of course, that's by RAW. Could Raveen do anything with a little more oomph?

On second thought, RichD, I'd like to delay addressing this issue until the moment of truth. Naberius and I have the uncanny ability to grind the game (gameplay or discussion) to a screeching halt.

I'd like to push the plot forward a bit--else we risk staying on Level 2 forever and in the planning room for another week.
So, if everyone understands the plan and agrees on it, I think we should wrap this up.
Tasks:
Raveen will survey the tower in the morning to check its DC before work, and will also buy a Climber's Kit. He (and Janiven) will roll a Local check to leak information of the bait to the Bastards.
Naberius will probably need to scribe [Monkeyfish] and [Feather Fall].
The rest should prepare as best they can.

TL;DR Version: If the ambush-in-a-shop plan succeeds, wait outside the chapel from sundown until Raveen gives the green light to move in.
When he says enter, slip the dogs of war and take the Tieflings back to the Abyss/Seven Hells/Abaddon, etc. The force will be confused and divided.
We share the cake and see what they have on them: do they work for someone? Do they have papers/contacts? How much have they stolen, and for what purpose--etc.
Then we wrap up and go to Denny's.

All in favor say aye, so we can finish this part of the adventure.

Just a heads up but a scroll of Featherfall does nothing for someone who is currently falling. The spell itself is an immediate action but casting it from a scroll is still a standard action. By the time the scroll is cast the person has already fallen and taken the damage.

Also sleep is a 1 round casting which means it takes effect on Naberius next turn allowing the sentry to sound the alarm.

Other than that Tal will agree to the basics but not the specifics. I don't want to be pigeonholed again and told I broke orders and need to be punished.

I guess we have no contingencies if Raveen falls other than an Acrobatics check to reduce fall damage. But Sleep can be triggered whenever Raveen feels it is needed. If it takes a round, I guess so be it.
I mean, how else are we to take out the sentry? Ranged attack with 20% concealment, (perhaps) partial cover from the bell and 60 ft. distance from the base? Risk a shout of pain or hitting the bell? Sleep is the back-up plan, and it does not have to be instantaneous.

Other than that Tal will agree to the basics but not the specifics. I don't want to be pigeonholed again and told I broke orders and need to be punished.

Hmm...

Aura of Insolence (Su): Any creature adjacent to a thoxel demon must succeed at a DC 15 Will save or become insolent and uncooperative with its allies.
Disrupt Coordination (Su): Whenever a creature threatened by a thoxel demon uses the aid another action, the thoxel can, as an immediate action, attempt to interrupt and negate that action.

I jest, I jest, I promise you.
[/Wipes tear]
Of course, it can't even be insubordination if Tal isn't a subordinate--and he isn't; he's an equal.

But jokes aside: if you have an idea (any idea), Plan A and B are open for adjustment on every step.
Just tell us what you want to do, and we can be ready for it, and help maximize the effectiveness of what you want to do. We're a team here who are trying to get things done, not a CN troop of barbarians: and each of our characters add strength to another to form a seamless whole.
Notice that I did not divide the group to sub-groups, and let that up to yourselves to decide, nor have I given any requests to any character besides Naberius for specific spells. So there is no need to consider yourself pigeonholed--since you have a say in this from before the assault even begins.

So there is no need to go all Leeroy Jenkins or Snow (FF13) on us. 'Cause heroes actually do need plans. They do.
An improv routine can end badly for us--especially that we don't have as much control over the terrain as much as our last fight, and there are a lot of things we don't know.

As a side note---Thoxel demons are also good blacksmiths. What's up with that? xD

Per the PRD and this is how we play it at our tabletop game:

Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

So if the sentry makes his saving throw against the sleep spell, he will know 'something ain't right', if that is cause enough for him to ring the bell would be another matter.

I wasn't aware of this rule, thanks! Makes sense to me.

On second thought, RichD, I'd like to delay addressing this issue until the moment of truth. Naberius and I have the uncanny ability to grind the game (gameplay or discussion) to a screeching halt.

All in favor say aye, so we can finish this part of the adventure.

Quite so. I was about to suggest something similar.

The plan is fine with me.

Also sleep is a 1 round casting which means it takes effect on Naberius next turn allowing the sentry to sound the alarm.

It is true that casting sleep in a hurry the might be tricky. I wouldn't mind using a spell slot to make this go more smoothly, even if it is not 100% guaranteed. Neither is Raveen surprising the sentry, so we might as well...

He is the one who is going up there to risk his life, however. I will leave it up to him.

Other than that Tal will agree to the basics but not the specifics. I don't want to be pigeonholed again and told I broke orders and need to be punished.

Notice that I did not divide the group to sub-groups, and let that up to yourselves to decide, nor have I given any requests to any character besides Naberius for specific spells. So there is no need to consider yourself pigeonholed--since you have a say in this from before the assault even begins.

If Tal does not wish to go along with Raveen's plans in character, he is certainly free to do so. Just because Raveen and Naberius are meticulous planners, that does not mean that everyone else should be. Our characters are still relative strangers to each other, so I don't see why we should be operating with military efficiency. Just as long as we agree generally on what we are about to do, I think we'll be fine. The rest makes for good roleplaying.

However, if there is any OOC animosity over the past mission (which I might be sensing here, forgive me if I'm reading too much into it), it would probably be better to clear that up now. I can totally see how these long, complicated plans might feel stifling to some. I like planning, but I know a lot of people who would rather go in blind and improvise. It's simply a matter of finding the correct balance between different playstyles. If it feels like we are dominating play by being excessively verbose, you should definitely communicate that so we can adjust. We are all adults here, and can deal with a bit of constructive criticism.

@Assassinations:

LEGIT INFO ON KILLING PEOPLE FROM RELIABLE SOURCES, YO.

xD

He is the one who is going up there to risk his life, however. I will leave it up to him.

Your trust fills me with strength.

@Light Levels:

Best-case scenario: all rooms in the temple are well lit, which would make them 'normal light,' resulting in dim lighting. I'll be damned if there is not some encounter where the pre-existing lighting conditions are already dim--

Or dark--since they do not need light unless they need to distinguish colors (which they might plausibly need in their own base). Even if we pop the cash for Daylight, we might not get full use of it, since two sources of light cancel one another. Another Tiefling can throw their SLA as well.

Raveen has both blind-fight and low-light vision. If push comes to shove, I guess he might make some kind of check (perception or spellcraft) to sense/identify where the spell is centered, and throw his cloak on it to cancel it out and let the normal [Light] spell prevail--since the effect cannot bypass lightproof cover.

But that's only one canceled. That's one additional reason to split them up...
This sure is a pickle. Best case scenario, they would be distracted and easy to pick out one-by-one. Naberius's fiendish creatures come equipped with Darkvision, correct? Can he get anything that grapples?

We can just pay for a communal Darkvision spell. That would cost 5 x 3 x 10 gp (150 for five hours--one hour each) per the hiring rules. Cheaper than a scroll of Daylight, and Raveen has many contacts in academia.
Best of all, it'll come as a real nasty surprise for the Tieflings.
The real issue is convincing the contact to cast the spell so late at night--and for what purpose.
But hey...Raveen can think of something.

@OOC Animosity:
I'm not coming near that can of worms. That's why I let everyone's actions have a degree of independence within the plan.

No animosity intended about the pigeonholed comment from the last encounter. It was meant more light hearted than anything else. I am more in the camp of leaving room for improvisation and not having such a regimented plan though.

Sorry if I wasn't clear but this was intended for the plan about ambushing the tieflings with someone designated to lock the door, throw the tanglefoot bags, etc. We all know what the ultimate goal is and know that none of the tieflings should escape. As long as that is accomplished then everyone can do as they feel best without someone at odds for not listening to someone's request or orders. This does not mean that suggestions are a bad thing rather there should be no repercussions if those actions aren't taken.

Plan breakdown input: Am I understanding correctly by Raveen's bold text that even if the first ambush fails that we are not going after the tieflings and continue to wait for them to eventually pick our location as the ambush spot?

Or dark--since they do not need light unless they need to distinguish colors (which they might plausibly need in their own base). Even if we pop the cash for Daylight, we might not get full use of it, since two sources of light cancel one another. Another Tiefling can throw their SLA as well.

I assume most creatures that have darkvision tend to like to be able to see colours (dwarves, for example), at least the ones that aren't harmed by light. Daylight is higher spell level than darkness, so it always trumps the latter. It might get us out of a sticky situation, if things don't go our way. We might want to invest in a scroll at some point, since we are bound to go against shadowy creatures in the future regardless.

We can just pay for a communal Darkvision spell. That would cost 5 x 3 x 10 gp (150 for five hours--one hour each) per the hiring rules. Cheaper than a scroll of Daylight, and Raveen has many contacts in academia.

Best of all, it'll come as a real nasty surprise for the Tieflings.
The real issue is convincing the contact to cast the spell so late at night--and for what purpose.

That's a really good idea. We might have to pay some extra, but it is still more effective than daylight. That is assuming we move quickly enough to make use of the effect, of course.

This sure is a pickle. Best case scenario, they would be distracted and easy to pick out one-by-one. Naberius's fiendish creatures come equipped with Darkvision, correct? Can he get anything that grapples?

Fiendish creatures have darkvision. As of yet, I have nothing I can actually command to do anything, since they are basically animals. I can just summon them close to a target and hope for the best. :P

@OOC Animosity:

I'm not coming near that can of worms. That's why I let everyone's actions have a degree of independence within the plan.

I'm in no way trying to say that you aren't offering everyone the chance to contribute, merely that they might feel a bit overwhelmed by the extensiveness of your plans. Us two are pretty wordy in general, so it's good to make sure we aren't drowning out the others. I'm sure they would let us know if we were, but it's still good to check.

No animosity intended about the pigeonholed comment from the last encounter. It was meant more light hearted than anything else. I am more in the camp of leaving room for improvisation and not having such a regimented plan though.

Sorry if I wasn't clear but this was intended for the plan about ambushing the tieflings with someone designated to lock the door, throw the tanglefoot bags, etc. We all know what the ultimate goal is and know that none of the tieflings should escape. As long as that is accomplished then everyone can do as they feel best without someone at odds for not listening to someone's request or orders. This does not mean that suggestions are a bad thing rather there should be no repercussions if those actions aren't taken.

Okay, good to have clarification. I just like to make sure that everyone is on the same page about these things. I know I have a tendency of stealing the show in my RL games, so I do my best to be considerate. :)

I agree that there is room in our plans for more flexibility, as long as we agree on the main objectives. No one should feel like they are being told what to do.

Sorry if I wasn't clear but this was intended for the plan about ambushing the tieflings with someone designated to lock the door, throw the tanglefoot bags, etc. We all know what the ultimate goal is and know that none of the tieflings should escape. As long as that is accomplished then everyone can do as they feel best without someone at odds for not listening to someone's request or orders. This does not mean that suggestions are a bad thing rather there should be no repercussions if those actions aren't taken.

If the end goal is efficiently achieved, I see no reason to harp on this topic. I do advise caution, however.

Plan breakdown input: Am I understanding correctly by Raveen's bold text that even if the first ambush fails that we are not going after the tieflings and continue to wait for them to eventually pick our location as the ambush spot?

If the Tieflings don't take the bait and come to our ambush site (or anywhere near it), then we missed them.

@GM:
Did Raveen guess the Tiefling's next targets?

@Darkvision:
Darkvision is fortunately only in black and white, so I suppose we have a candle working for us.
But good point on the Darkvision. Very good point...I expect a lot of encounters if we're fighting in the twilight city.

Communal darkvision seems to be the best bet for now, however, though I do advise scribing the spell anyway. That alongside Monkeyfish.

Us two are pretty wordy in general, so it's good to make sure we aren't drowning out the others. I'm sure they would let us know if we were, but it's still good to check.

True--I'm not exactly sensing enthusiasm from the rest.

Note: An everburning Torch could work--it functions as if it has Continual Flame. Anyone up for purchasing one?

I don't think it does, unfortunately. You need a light spell that is higher level than the darkness in order for it to increase the light level when it is brought into the area, and continual flame is of the same spell level.

It just needs a spell of equal or higher level, Nabe.
Even so, we can search for a cleric-made torch, and wrap up the issue promptly.