Good to hear you're OK, if busy. I'll try to keep up with things better, too. Though as a heads-up, I'll be on vacation from Memorial Day weekend through Monday the 6th.
Now we just have to get Bea back with us. Katya, are you doing KublaCon again this year?
Unfortunately I wont be going to KublaCon this year but that means I will be around. :)
I'll be on the road for vacation, starting tomorrow and going through next Monday. (Prep for that at work has kept me pretty busy these past few days.) I may be able to get in a post or two, but probably not much more than that.
Sorry, I've been unexpectedly out of the loop. I'll try to catch up on posting ASAP.
Cool, thanks. I've been a little distracted as well--last week my division had five separate radiological incidents, including a personal shoe contamination over an order of magnitude above the mandatory "officially report this to DOE" level, and a measurable uptake of radioactive material that has a very good chance of exceeding the level at which the DOE's watchdog office sits up and takes notice. I'm the chief safety officer for my division, so I've had a busy time of it.
Speaking of distracted, though, I'm not sure what happened to Bea. I'll see if I can run the Count down.
Then a glowing green carbon rod started bouncing around Springfield.
I'll be camping this weekend, and off the grid.
-Posted with Wayfinder
OK, so I have a bit more information on the other players, along with some speculation. Bea's player, I've heard at second hand, wasn't seeing updates, and thought the game had folded w/o warning. I haven't talked to the player directly, but asked a mutual acquaintance to pass along the message that it was still active. The acquaintance did so at some point in the past ten days; in the absence of any response from Bea, though, I have to assume that the player is dropping out.
I looked to see whether Katya's player has been active elsewhere on the boards, and found two other campaigns the player had explicitly dropped out of this past Saturday. I speculate without evidence that perhaps the same thing happened as with Bea--the player wasn't seeing updates, thought we'd stopped, and didn't do a similar posting here. I sent a PM yesterday afternoon and haven't heard anything back.
So. Worst case is that half of the players--the two who've been in the game the longest--have dropped out. If that's the case, I'm not sure where to go from here. I could try to pick up another couple of players and maybe make the PCs not involved with the running of the kingdom; i.e., you'd be agents of the Crown, and your characters wouldn't have kingdom roles (but the players would be able to direct the growth of the kingdom). That seems like a logical progression, with Bea retiring from adventuring to be a full-time ruler. Or I could fold it up. What are your thoughts?
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Hi!! Sorry I missed your message earlier. Yep, as you guessed, after a long period of no updates I sort of assumed the campaign had up and died. Not really sure where to go from here. Bea has turned into probably my favorite character I've ever played, and despite the slow pacing of this game, I've really enjoyed the progression over the years.
That said, it's been YEARS. And I'm the only player who's been in since the start, and if Katya isn't here than we've lost the only other player who's even anywhere close.
So...I'm open to suggestion. My life has turned pretty upside down since this game started - I've been through 3 different jobs, had a baby, got a divorce, etc. But when things got really nuts I dropped out of all my other PbP games so I could focus on just this one.
Carbide, I've had a great time with you as a DM. Maybe it's time to wrap this one up and try starting something new. If so, keep me in mind.
Yeah, I'm finding it hard to escape the nagging feeling that the sunk costs fallacy is coloring my thinking. This was the first PbP campaign I've run on the boards, and there are definitely things I would do differently if I were starting over (as I've done/tried to do, in fact, when running PFS games). Let's see what the other players think.
ETA: Re pacing, I'm in a Shattered Star game that started in May 2013, and we're well into Part 6. Honestly, that's a lot closer to how fast I'd like to be going, and that's on me as a GM.
Also ETA: Thanks for the kind words, Count!
I'd prefer to keep playing, but I'm the FNG. I've been enjoying the game; I don't really have a problem with a slow pace. That said, since Vasily is the Enforcer he could just be sent out doing Enforcer type stuff (i.e., the set pieces in the AP). Part of the problem is that the exploration part of Kingmaker is XP filler to make up for a lack of dungeoneering and that turns into a really long slog in the PbP format.
But if you're done with the AP, DM, closing up shop is always an option. I've ended games where I was the DM because I and the players have lost interest. No hard feelings on my part. I'd be glad to play with you in another game if you'd be willing to have me.
Hello friends, I'm sorry I haven't posted or been active here recently, I came down with a bad spider bite a few weeks back and have been in the hospital pretty much knocked out for most of it. I'll see if I can catch up and add my 2 cents to the conversation. Just wanted to quickly get this on here so you know I haven't disappeared completely.
Good grief. Glad you're OK.
The DM job is an order of magnitude more time consuming than playing, so I'll go with whatever Carbide wants. I'm OK with the slow pace, because we all seem like busy people and I'm not sure how much quicker we could really go. My suggestion would be to railroad us a bit through the exploration. It's the getting consensus on which way we're going, etc, that takes up the most time. When I DM my email game, I go with the suggestion of the first person to reply, unless I get immediate non-concurrence from other players. It moves things along. Alternatively, I'd be fine with starting over in a different AP / module, if you think this plot is burnt out.
Also, I'll be on leave overseas from 19 Jul to 17 Aug, and I'm pretty sure I won't be posting at all. Please don't take my absence as lack of interest.
Also, glad to hear the player of Katya is OK.
Thanks for the input, all. I'm OK with a relatively slow posting pace, but I need to make sure that those posts aren't spent on things we could elide over with minimal impact to the story line (which was one of the takeaways from the Shattered Star campaign--the GM would skip over lopsided fights and the like). I'd like to get to some of the more interesting parts of the AP, and at this rate I'll have retired before we get past Part IV.
At the point the PCs are, they could send out NPC teams like the Narthropples to do the surveying and just deal with whatever comes up that's too big for NPCs to take care of (i.e., skip over any random encounters or minor wilderness locations and just give the PCs the set pieces and most interesting locations). It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the Duchess spends most of her time riding around making maps when there are presumably lots of things that need her attention back at the city and hundreds of people who want to do what Bea tells them to do.
You might have to change from encounter XP to story-point XP, but it would get the story moving faster.
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At the point the PCs are, they could send out NPC teams like the Narthropples to do the surveying and just deal with whatever comes up that's too big for NPCs to take care of (i.e., skip over any random encounters or minor wilderness locations and just give the PCs the set pieces and most interesting locations). It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the Duchess spends most of her time riding around making maps when there are presumably lots of things that need her attention back at the city and hundreds of people who want to do what Bea tells them to do.
You might have to change from encounter XP to story-point XP, but it would get the story moving faster.
That's a pretty good idea, and I'd support such a change at this point.
I'm good with that, and having Narthropple right there makes it an easy sell. I'm already doing something like story-point leveling, so this won't be a major shift.
So... I've spent some time reading over the things I missed and here's my opinion on the issues. In the years since we started this game, I've also run Kingmaker up to book 4 (TPK involving a Rod of Wonder, and Elephant, and a balcony) and if I was going to run Kingmaker again there are quite a few changes I would make:
1. The hex based exploration is done away with, there is far too much open empty space on all the maps in the AP, and there are far too many random encounters (per this: Mr(s). Wizard Explains it All). So like said above, we remove most of the exploration as a tedious time waster that is amplified by PBP issues. The way I would do it for my table is set a number of hexes around the interesting encounters in the book that are all explored and unlocked by the players by completing the encounter area. The rest of the hexes can just be hand waved as hiring adventurers to finish exploring after we make it safe.
2. Kingdom building while kind of fun to do in an RP way really drags down a PBP. So while I don't mind doing a bit of RP council stuff, we really should keep most of the real discussion to out of character to the point posts in the discussion area. We've done that mostly with this so not really a point against the current way we are doing things, just being thorough.
3. The entire second book is just... filler. It doesn't actually do much of anything to progress the main AP plot and is content to just let the PCs wallow around in the kingdom builder system until the DM gets bored of it all and summons up Quantum Bears to break the tedium. So I'd honestly suggest skipping most of the book unless you plan on doing a serious redesign.
4. The third book is actually pretty similar to the second in that it does nothing to really advance the AP but its better than the second book because its self-contained story advances the kingdom while actually being fun.
Other than all that, our groups usual problem is momentum. We've had a hard time keeping up momentum like most PBP groups do after a lot of people drop out, but I am still willing to keep this going. However, if you decide you want to start a new AP and try to build momentum from scratch rather than restart the engine, I am willing to follow that too. :)
Food for thought. Thanks for posting that, Katya--it's good to hear from someone who's played through this. It sounds like fast-forwarding through the slow bits here will work, and I'll get to work on writing that up. And if it still seems to be problematic, then I'll go to Plan C. (Plan B was when I picked up the AP after the original DM vanished.) I already own the APs from WotR to Hell's Rebels, and I'm sure there's something in there that would work (though I'm really looking forward to Ironfang Invasion).
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Thanks Katya, that's really good info and I'd agree that skipping most of the filler stuff would be a good way to go forward from this point in order to keep our interest. I mean, some of our best RP experiences have happened naturally in the middle of wandering the wilderness or from random encounters, but they're definitely the exception rather than the rule and we can't count on them to happen often enough to keep things interesting.
Carbide, if you decide to go with Plan C, I have characters written up for Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire, Carrion Crown, Jade Regent, and Skulls & Shackles. I'd love the chance to play any of them again. That said, I love the challenge of coming up with a new character idea and haven't done it in way too long (we've gotten 9 new APs since the last time I built a character? Shame on me!).
What I'm trying to say is...I'm flexible.
If we're thinking about jettisoning the free roam part of Kingmaker I'd recommend against Skull & Shackles. I just wrapped up a S&S game where the PCs were having trouble maintaining interest once they got their own ship and could go anywhere and do anything. On the plus side we're going to transition to Strange Aeons, which I'm very excited to be running.
Hi, guys.
I've just been asked to cover for someone who's scheduled to teach a seminar next week, so I'm going to be out until Monday the 8th. Sorry for the short notice.
Thanks.
No problem--I'll be gone for a week or so in early August as well, and I still have to go over Parts 2 and 3 and figure out where I want to restart.
Just got back from leave. Any resolution on how we might continue?
I started looking at Varnhold Vanishing, and although there's a lot of exploring in it to start with I think I can handwave that as you looking for the Nomen centaurs, and run the rest fairly straight. The question of why a significant chunk of the governing council of your fledgling nation is gallivanting off to parts unknown is an open one, though. Katya, how did you handle it?
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Along with your assistant, Sir Kay de Rouge Manteau.
That really is the narrative conceit of Kingmaker unfortunately. Its the bridge crew of the Enterprise going down to solve situations that should really be handled by a tactical team. If I was going to handle that whole business again... We can assume the kingdom is stable enough to handle itself for a few weeks. If you want to tie the Nomen centaurs into the plot, more than the book does anyway, it can all start as a diplomatic mission. That gives plenty of reason for the players to leave the kingdom for a time, with a trusted NPC viceroy left in charge while we are gone.
Honestly, I'd skip the centaurs altogether and just let the PCs go from Varnhold to, um, the place with the guy. They're interesting to meet and gaining their trust is kind of cool at a table, but they would take forever to do in PbP. I'd say the leaders of the kingdom had a scheduled meeting with Varn to talk about a treaty or public works project or something and then found what they found and tracked clues to the place at the end.
That gives the PC leaders a reason to be away from the kingdom- treaty negotiations with a neighboring Duke.
That would let me handwave the exploration with a story about you trying to find the right group of centaurs to meet with, and also give you a previous exposure to Varnhold.
That would admittedly be much easier on me than trying to adjust the AP. So here are the other options--as I said I currently own several APs, which I will list along with some comments.
Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition: There are a lot of RotR PbP campaigns out there, and some have even gotten past Thistletop (though I personally haven't finished out the first part in four or five tries). I could deal with this.
Wrath of the Righteous: If I run this, I'd use Legendary Games' adjustments to the mythic rules.
Mummy's Mask: Another one I'd be able to run with minimal changes.
Iron Gods: I didn't think much of this when it came out, but it's grown on me a bit. Dealable.
Giantslayer: Generic AP; AFAICT it wouldn't need a whole lot of customization to run PbP. There isn't much love for it on the boards, and I'm not sure why.
Hell's Rebels: I don't see this working well in a PbP format.
Strange Aeons: While I love me some Lovecraft, I haven't read through this in detail yet.
What do you all think?
OK... my thoughts. I'm with Vasily now that we've explored a bit what it would take to fix things up for us. There's a lot of work involved that isn't fair to ask of you Dm Carbide.
So... moving forward, I personally think that Strange Aeons is going to fall flat on its face. A dungeon exploring RPG system just isn't designed to handle the kind of story the Mythos is meant to tell and given Paizo's track record, I am not convinced they will be able to handle D&D character power scaling while maintaining the helpless horror of a Mythos game.
Iron Gods I am iffy on but that's because of similar issues to Strange Aeons, ie. running an essentially cyberpunk story in a dungeon crawling RPG.
Giantslayer, Mummy's Mask and Rise of the Runelords are all generic RPG AP that work quite well in PBP, they need very little modification and are easy stories to get into. Mummy's Mask doesn't appeal to me much personally and I'm currently in a Rise of the Runelords real life game.
I agree with Hell's Rebels not working too well in PBP format.
I've recently been a part of a Wrath of the Righteous PBP that fell apart due to time constraints and I've finished a WOTR real life game so I know all the story beats unfortunately. Its probably my favorite AP from Paizo but that's because I really enjoy playing through high fantasy raw power characters. There are a few changes I'd personally want to make to it though, if I was going to run it. Mostly having to do with the character traits and how they integrate into the plot.
So... I guess if I'm put to a vote, I'd say Wrath of the Righteous or Giantslayer
Heh. I'm running a Strange Aeons game, so hopefully it goes better than you think, Katya. That said, PF doesn't lend itself well to terrorizing the PCs- if you've got a wizard who regularly deals with demons and daemons, why would he be scared of aberrations?- but I'm going to give it a good try.
I like Iron Gods, but it looks a lot more Thundarr the Barbarian than Shadowrun to me. I'd be glad to give it another try; we only got a bit into the first mod before the DM ghosted on us.
Of Giantslayer, MM, and RotR, Giantslayer is the only I'm not currently playing in. So of those 3 I'd vote for Giantslayer. I think the reason it doesn't get a lot of love is that it's just as you said- it's the generic idea of an AP. Which is the point, since it's basically a reboot of the very first AP, Against the Giants. Everybody loves Against the Giants, but it's pretty old fashioned by now.
The only thing I have against Giantslayer is from reading Giants Revisited a long time ago- hill giants as The Hills Have Eyes mutant cannibals is really weird. But that might not even be canon anymore.
I don't think the Mythic rules hold together at all, but then again I also think the encounter rules fall apart at high levels. My sweet spot is mid-level, when PCs start getting the feats they've been building toward but before casters start getting 7th level spells. Anyway, I'd vote against Wrath.
So that's 2 votes for Giantslayer?
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I've GM'd Rise of the Runelords for our local group. It's good enough of a story that I wouldn't mind going through it again as a player, though.
I'm not sure I'm a fan of the Mythic rules. I agree that combat in general sort of falls apart at high level.
Mummies Mask might be interesting. Not my usual favorite genre but for that very reason might be fun to explore.
Iron Gods: I think if I'm going to play in a tech RPG, I'd rather play one in a campaign setting based on it instead of trying to shoehorn it into Golarian.
Giantslayer: I'd be fine with this.
Strange Aeons: I haven't really looked directly at the AP at all yet, but I've browsed through the Horror Adventures book and honestly feel like the expanded rules for fear and corruption could add a lot of flavor. My first thought was actually that I'd love to play a Carrion Crown game with these modifications.
I've played well into the second book of Carrion Crown in PbP and absolutely loved it, but we had to invent a lot of the "horror" feel ourselves because the mechanics don't support it all that well (and certain classes that are immune to fear entirely). I feel like those additional rules would only make it easier to get into the intended flavor of the AP. That PbP was still going strong and I actually was the reason it stopped, due to me withdrawing from all but one of my PbP games towards the end of my marriage in an attempt to focus more on personal life issues.
I know you don't have the AP, but I'd be willing to chip in to get you a copy, just because I'm so excited about the idea of running it with Horror Adventures rules.
If not, my top votes would probably tied for MM, RotR, and Giantslayer.
I hate to be wishy-washy, but I'm really fine with anything. I actually agree that the deeper we get into Kingmaker, the further it drifts away from where PbP strengths lie.
I'd prefer Iron Gods, but CC, MM, GS - they're all cool.
I haven't played any of them.
Sounds like everyone's good with Giantslayer. Discussion thread is now live, and can be found HERE. Stop by and we can talk characters, and whether you think four PCs will be enough.
And thanks for playing KM--this was, as I said, my first attempt at running PbP here, and even though it dragged a lot it was still a lot of fun. Once everyone's checked in over in the new campaign I'll take this one down.
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Thanks Carbide! Some of my favorite RP moments ever came out of this AP. I'll never forget the stormy night where Bea confronted the rampaging elk in the rain, and the great discussions about theology with Katya and Havrin.
Some day it might be fun to try and compile this story into a more readable format. And maybe fix some of my inconsistencies with Bea's speech patterns...
Anyways, it was a great run. A long run. I'll see you on the flip side for Giantslayer.
I really enjoyed this game and the group, though I only joined recently. Thanks for running it.
Thanks Carbide! Some of my favorite RP moments ever came out of this AP. I'll never forget the stormy night where Bea confronted the rampaging elk in the rain, and the great discussions about theology with Katya and Havrin.
That, and debating morality with Adam.
Now that everyone's checked in over at Giantslayer, time to draw the curtains, put the chairs up, shut off the lights, and lock the door on the way out.