DM Carbide's Kingmaker (Inactive)

Game Master John Woodford

I'm trying to get the kingdom rules extracted for you to look at.

Success! See the link in the Campaign Information tab.

There are also the Kingdom rules from Ultimate Campaign, which is part of the PRD. Not certain what the changes/differences are.

Gang,

I think we should probably do the business of Kingdom Building here, so it doesn't get in the way of role-playing. I took a look at the Kingdom Rules, and it looks like we need to make a few decisions. I've put together a crude (and incomplete) Kingdom Sheet, which I've appended below.

1. Name - we should probably handle this in character
2. Alignment - Zlotii is N, but I'm OK with some Lawful thrown in
3. Leadership - I think Zlotii would be best as the councilor. Anyone else want to put in dibs for a role?
4. I'm not sure where the Stag Lord's fort is. Which hex is it?
5. Do we set our edicts now, or does that come later?

Kingdom Name:
Alignment:
Size:
Control DC:
Population:

Economy:
Bonuses
Buildings Edicts Leadership Resources Alignment
Penalties
Edicts Unrest Vacancies Other

Loyalty:
Bonuses
Buildings Edicts Leadership Resources Alignment
Penalties
Edicts Unrest Vacancies Other

Stability:
Bonuses
Buildings Events Leadership Resources Alignment
Penalties
Edicts Unrest Vacancies Other

Gang,

I think we should probably do the business of Kingdom Building here, so it doesn't get in the way of role-playing.

So very much this.

To the other points...
1) Agreed.
2) Rufus' personal preferences would be either N or NG. From a simple mechanics standpoint, Stability seems the save most commonly in play, from an RP standpoint, those are probably my two favorite alignments, barring the necessity of playing a different one for class requirements, (Yes, I actually do play Paladins fairly frequently...)
3) Rufus is actually effective in any Position... He just makes more sense in certain positions rather than others.
4) It doesn't seem to be on the Campaign Map. If I remember correctly from other Kingmaker Campaigns I have played in, it is one of two hexes further down the river Southwest from the hex in which it converges.
5) If I remember correctly, we can change edicts on a monthly/turn basis, but some make more sense to set for at least a year.

I've just linked the final exploration map on the Campaign Info tab.

Alright, so it is one more hex Southwest of the hex where the two rivers join.

Am I correct in guessing that the bottom-most hexes mark the Southernmost(ish) extent of the Charter?

I've got something to help us with the kingdom stuff. Take a look at this:

Kingmaker Sheet

The URL is safe, it leads to a kingdom sheet for anyone to edit. I've started putting information into the document but since we haven't decided roles yet its very incomplete. The document does include calculations for all the important stuff on the sheet so we just need to import the numbers.

As for my role... well, as I see it, Katya is very clearly going down the road of Magister.

I'm glad Katya found the kingdom sheet; I would've gone looking for it if she hadn't.

I was until recently involved in a very different KM game that focused more on the kingdom building aspects of the game. Since it was PbP, it fell apart very quickly due to, I think, a lack of roleplaying. People kind of lost interest in the crunchiness of the kingdom building minigame. However, there are a couple of things I think I learned that could be useful.

These are the basics, for anybody who hasn't had time to look through the Kingdom Building rules (actually, a question here- are we using the Kingmaker rules or the ones on the PRD? The PRD has more options than the base KM rules and if I had to pick I'd go with the PRD simply due to ease of access):

The most important stats a Kingdom has are Economy, Loyalty and Stability. These work basically like saving throws.

Economy is how robust your kingdom's economy is, and it is used to raise taxes and absorb economic disasters.

Loyalty is how much your people like you, and is used to keep them from killing you all in your sleep.

Stability is how stable your society is. This is the most abstract, it's sort of a combination of your law enforcement, religious institutions, and community spirit. It's used to keep your kingdom secure in times of crisis.

Control DC is based on how big your kingdom is and is the DC for checks with the first three stats.

Defense Modifier is how well defended you are and will come up later, but it's pretty self-explanatory. It's a modifier to defense.

Nation building is done in build points, or BP. One BP = approximately 4,000 gp. Every month you need to pay your kingdom's upkeep in BP or people become upset, but you gain BP based on an Economy check every month as well. You also use BP to buy buildings and other improvements, which modify the kingdom's stats.

Unrest is like reverse hit points. Gain too much of this and your kingdom breaks up.

Edicts are various decisions you make related to government, and affect your stats.

All of the leaders affect stats in some way. There are 11 leadership positions, each of which give a bonus to a kingdom roll based on the character's appropriate attribute modifier; most roles have 2 possible applicable attributes. NPCs can fill roles.

Ruler (Cha): Economy, Loyalty, or Stability bonus. Vacancy increases Unrest and kingdom can't claim new hexes, build roads or farms, or build city districts. Basically, this role needs to be filled.
Councilor (Wis / Cha): Loyalty bonus. Vacancy penalty to Loyalty and Unrest.
Grand Diplomat (Int / Cha): Stability bonus/penalty.
High Priest(Wis / Cha): Stability bonus/penalty. Vacancy also increases Unrest.
Magister(Int / Cha): Economy bonus/penalty.
General(Str / Cha): Stability bonus/penalty.
Marshal(Dex / Wis): Economy bonus/penalty.
Royal Assassin(Str / Dex): Loyalty and Unrest bonus. The only role with no penalty for vacancy.
Spymaster(Dex / Int): Economy, Loyalty, or Stability bonus- can change allocation at will. Economy and Unrest penalty.
Treasurer(Int / Wis): Economy bonus/penalty.
Warden(Str / Con): Loyalty bonus/penalty. Vacancy also penalizes Stability.

Stability rolls are the most common. A small kingdom doesn't have to worry too much about Unrest at first. At a minimum we'd probably want Ruler, Grand Diplomat, High Priest, General, and Spymaster filled by characters with the highest possible modifiers. Spymaster's a really interesting role since they can shift their modifier around as needed.

I took a quick look at PC sheets and everybody's strengths are:

Bea- STR+3/DEX,CHA+2; General/Warden+3, Councilor/Diplomat/Priest+2
Doc- CHA+3/WIS+2; Ruler/Councilor/Diplomat/Priest/Magister/General+3
Ed- INT+4/DEX,CON,WIS+2; Diplomat/Magister/Spymaster/Treasurer+4
Ruf- STR+2/CHA+2; Ruler/Councilor/Diplomat/Priest/Magister/General+2
Kat- INT+4/CHA+2; Diplomat/Magister/Spymaster/Treasurer+4
Vas- DEX+3/STR,WIS+2; Marshal/Assassin/Spymaster+3, Councilor/Priest/Treasurer+2

Obviously, there are best mechanical choices and best RP choices. I won't weigh in on RP choices other than Vasily's. His personal preference would be Warden, but he'd be a fine Marshal given his background as a semi-nobleman working with a castle's armsmen or a fine Spymaster given his experience working with/against bandits.

I don't know about the various NPCs top mods. Could you give us a hint about where they'd be best, DM?

Sorry for the long post, but I really like the kingdom building aspect of the game.

At this point, in terms of Leadership roles, it is almost more important that we have a body filling them than that the body in question have a particularly high bonus. The 'empty slot' penalties can be harsh. That said, we don't have enough PC's to fill all the roles as there are eleven, only one of which doesn't have a penalty assigned for vacancy.
What NPC(s) can we just 'slot in' & who do we have that will require RP?

Also, DM Carbide, have you looked at the Kingdom Rules in Ultimate Campaign by comparison to the rules from Kingmaker? While they change a few of the names for things, they also add some things that can be helpful, such as if we wish to establish something other than a Monarchy. Ultimate Campaign is available as part of the PRD, so you don't have to purchase it if you haven't already.

Rufus, there are several well-known people here in the community--Beatrix, a holy warrior of Erastil; Doktor Zlotii Medvyed, a somewhat eccentric healer; Edvard Zamoyski, an arcanist of some sort (those are the PCs); Havrin Stahl, a skilled hunter; Adam Burlevogne, a Surtovan court bard and current functionary in the government; Oleg and Svetlana Leveton, a pair of traders; Kesten Garess, a mercenary captain who's acting as a guard commander; and Jhod Kavken, a priest of Erastil. There's also a priestess of Erastil named Sabrina, who lives at a temple in the forest.

Can we assume the 'former PC' NPC's are available to fill Leadership posts?

Can we assume the 'former PC' NPC's are available to fill Leadership posts?
If so, I would recommend Adam as either Councillor, Treasurer, Grand Diplomat, or possibly even High Priest (I thought I remembered he had a level of either Cleric or Inquisitor). I think Havrin would work well as either General, Marshal, or Warden. Sabrina sounds like she would serve well as either High Priest (at least to start) or Warden (assuming I am recalling correctly that the Warden...

I'll add a couple of suggestions for PCs and NPCs based on RP, considering stats secondary. I'm don't know the new PCs well just because they haven't been with us for long, so don't let this imply that I think an NPC should have a role that you'd rather have your character take. For PCs that I've placed, these are just suggestions.

Ruler (Cha): We've discussed this a bit before and I believe the consensus was that Bea should take this role. Please speak up if you feel otherwise.
Councilor (Wis / Cha): Zlotii
Grand Diplomat (Int / Cha): Vasily?
High Priest(Wis / Cha): Sabrina
Magister(Int / Cha): Katya
General(Str / Cha): Jacyn
Marshal(Dex / Wis): Havrin
Royal Assassin(Str / Dex): Vasily?
Spymaster(Dex / Int): Edvard
Treasurer(Int / Wis): Adam
Warden(Str / Con): Rufus

I'm cool with Buggula's list, with a few points for clarification:

General is listed as Jacyn. Do you mean Kesten?
High Priest is listed as Sabrina, but mmaybe Jhod is an option?

Also, the big question - What do we name our new town / kingdom?

Being a total suck-up, the Dok would like to name the town Fort Gurev after his uncle, the head of the Medvyed family.

Okay, I've been running around in circles, trying to figure out what is bugging me about things & I think I've finally figured it out. This is going to come off as rather harsh & I own that.

Right now, as near as I can see, we have no business forging & leading a nation.

Up to this point, we have been a band of adventurers, being adventurers. Founding & leading a nation is a completely different mindset & we seem to still be in 'adventurer' mindset. To illustrate my point, I'm going to respond to your Leadership role suggestions Count Buggula.

Ruler (Cha): We've discussed this a bit before and I believe the consensus was that Bea should take this role. Please speak up if you feel otherwise.

The Leader of a new nation, particularly one who sees themselves as a Populist as, by her own words Bea does, must have a vision or goal for why they should be leader. I also didn't see a reason for that. I'm not saying the leader should be 'my way or the highway', I'm saying when somebody asks Bea if she is the Leader of this community, she should be able to immediately say "Yes, *here* is why."

Councilor (Wis / Cha): Zlotii

...Why?

Grand Diplomat (Int / Cha): Vasily?

Again, why? Your Diplomat is your second face/voice for your nation to the nations outside. You absolutely need to be able to trust them to argue as best they are able for your nation's well-being to those peoples outside. Why would you trust this position to someone you just met, it doesn't matter how good their credentials are, you don't know them well enough to trust them to be your people's 'public face' to the rest of the world.

High Priest(Wis / Cha): Sabrina

This I can see, though Jhod would be more conventionally... reassuring to outsiders. But if she's our High Priestess, we aren't that concerned with what Outsiders think of her.

Magister(Int / Cha): Katya

Again, solid choice. She obviously has the skills for the position, as well as the temperament.

General(Str / Cha): Jacyn

Once more, solid choice; particularly as we also have strong contenders for the other positions he would seem to be well suited for.

Marshal(Dex / Wis): Havrin

As my comment regarding Warden in my previous post proved to actually be better meant for Marshal, (I had the two positions switched in my head when I was 'talking' about them), this is also a solid recommendation.

Royal Assassin(Str / Dex): Vasily?

In the Ultimate Campaign rewrite for Kingdom rules they rename this position as the Enforcer & clarify that the position addresses 'dealing' with Criminal & Malcontent behavior within the Kingdom, said dealings not necessarily involving assassinations. That said, as he pointed out, the position is the only one not to have a penalty for remaining empty... Which is to say, I don't believe you can make a bad selection.

Spymaster(Dex / Int): Edvard

At the risk of meta-gaming; Bards, Rogues, Witches & Wizards have the best 'skill set' for 'Intelligence Gathering', so again, solid choice. I hadn't noticed anyone showing a real RP bent toward that manner of activity, other than possibly Adam, so I can't say that anyone else would make a better choice.

Treasurer(Int / Wis): Adam

Speaking of Adam, while personally Rufus would prefer him as Grand Diplomat, for reasons I will go into later, I can certainly see Adam preferring to be the one holding the purse-strings. So, once more, solid choice.

Warden(Str / Con): Rufus

It's certainly not a bad choice. Given his training, Rufus can actually fill any Leadership Council position adequately, it's pretty much what he was raised to be from childhood. His personal preferences would be for certain other positions, but he could fill it; even fill it well, assuming part of his duties would be mediating & adjudicating disputes among the citizenry.

.

Okay, those were my...
Opinions, I'm not saying any of your choices were wrong so much as I will need more convincing that they were best, at least the ones I critiqued. Having answers to my questions will go a long ways towards adjusting my opinions.

.

My counter proposals & why:

Ruler: Well, Rufus. Yes, I recognize he is a completely unknown quantity & has no actual experience with any of the other characters. Not to mention, reeks of blatant power grab. He probably doesn't even provide a better mechanical bonus than Bea.
That said, as I said, the Ruler needs to be able to answer the question "Do you Lead here?" with a "Yes, *here* is why.". In Rufus' case, the answer would be "Yes. Nowhere on the face of Avistan, on the face of Golarion itself for that matter, is there a place the Mensen can call their own. Though I am not one, though the fact that I first found love among their number may seem perverse, I have & they are a people dear to me. I would see them with a safe haven. Veiligheid will be their safe haven, if it should require the last drop of blood within my frame."

Councilor: ... Unfortunately all the choices among the PC's that Rufus would feel would make good Councilors, would probably serve better in other positions. That said, he actually would consider Bea a solid choice for Councilor, for similar reasons to why he would consider her a good one as Grand Diplomat, if anyone should know what the common folk need, it would be an Erastil Worshiper...

Grand Diplomat: Well, Rufus' first choice would actually be Adam, as I stated earlier. As I can definitely see Adam preferring Treasurer as I also pointed out, Bea would also be a strong choice in his mind. As a Paladin of Erastil, she would hopefully understand that defending your home with words is preferable to force whenever possible.

Yes, I recognize that leaves the good Doktor out of the Council, which for both meta-game & IC reasons is not to be desired. The best suggestion I can think of would be possibly switching him & Sabrina. Those same qualities which would make Bea a good Councilor are applicable for Sabrina, and an 'otherworldly' High Priest is much less of a detriment than a Councillor.

In terms of Nation/Town names, Rufus' preferences would be Veiligheid & Thuis, respectively. As he has no desire to 'Suck Up' to anyone in public authority within Brevoy, he would be quite vehemently against naming the town after a member of Brevic Nobility.

Okay, I felt this needed a separate post because it is really a separate matter, but I wanted to address:

To clarify, I was assuming Rufus and Vasily were the ones who had provided the information in DM Carbide's post. Wasn't meaning to completely snuff you, just mostly ignoring the bit about Rakshasa.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really affect anything I posted.

To answer the 'why would you trust someone you just met' question, I'd go back to DM Carbide's intro post for Rufus and Vasily. To me it looked like he was trying to skip a few months to get us to the actual beginning of the first kingdom building turn. RP-wise our current scene is set before that, but OOC our discussion is set after/during that.

Basically, by the end of a few months worth of working with settlers and actually claiming the Stag Lord's Fort hex/building the city (i.e.- Kingdom Building turn 0), all of the motivational/getting to know you stuff would have shaken out already.

And honestly, right now we're not building a new kingdom. I mean, we as players are. But we as characters are building a village, maybe a frontier farming community, and maybe, if we're lucky, some sort of trading outpost. Vasily would argue that we need to worry about getting through our first winter far more than we need to worry about the motivation of a future king. A king can have grand plans and a motivating philosophy. A village mayor, which is essentially what we're looking at having for the first 10 or so turns at least, needs to be focused on practicalities.

Sorry I didn't make a post yesterday, spent some time working my way through the kingdom rules. I'll have a post up later today.

And honestly, right now we're not building a new kingdom. I mean, we as players are. But we as characters are building a village, maybe a frontier farming community, and maybe, if we're lucky, some sort of trading outpost. Vasily would argue that we need to worry about getting through our first winter far more than we need to worry about the motivation of a future king. A king can have grand plans and a motivating philosophy. A village mayor, which is essentially what we're looking at having for the first 10 or so turns at least, needs to be focused on practicalities.

Valid point, somewhat. Unfortunately, the system as it stands, doesn't differentiate & doesn't allow us to simply 'hand-wave' needing to fill those positions without taking the penalties. Partially, this is because, historically speaking, just about every Nation, at least in Europe which is the model Paizo is taking, started as a city-state & every city-state started as a town.

Rufus would also agree with you that we need to focus upon practicalities. Which gets into my second post. Rufus/I have thought a great deal about what practicalities the community needs to focus on. My next 'in-game' post after inquiring what insights Bea was interested in, was going to be to start making some of those recommendations & why they were important.
I will counter however your statement that those 'practicalities' are 'more' important than knowing what the Ruler's vision for the community is from the beginning. Suppose an NPC were to ask that very same question, because every one of them are; as I implied before, if the Ruler or whoever else the NPC encounters doesn't have an answer, what makes the NPC think they are really going to have an answer to the next question, which is 'do you know what you are doing?' My questions/statements weren't the 'whole' of the conversation, they were simply the 'beginning'.

And honestly, right now we're not building a new kingdom. I mean, we as players are. But we as characters are building a village, maybe a frontier farming community, and maybe, if we're lucky, some sort of trading outpost.

Except if that were the case, we would be building at Oleg's, not the Stag Fort. We are building a Fort/Castle, not a trading post. We are building a defensible center of power, and the people who come to us are going to see it as such, not 'a village, maybe a frontier farming community'.

Okay, I felt this needed a separate post because it is really a separate matter, but I wanted to address:

Bea wrote:

To clarify, I was assuming Rufus and Vasily were the ones who had provided the information in DM Carbide's post. Wasn't meaning to completely snuff you, just mostly ignoring the bit about Rakshasa.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really affect anything I posted.

To Rufus' observation; Bea proclaimed herself a Populist Ruler, then asked for advice or opinions & when she got some she didn't like, she proceeded to ignore the person giving them in favor of advice & opinions from someone she already knew and 'presumably' valued. She didn't even bother to ask for clarification of what the heck he was alluding to, she just 'swept it under the rug'. Also, the simple fact was that Rufus had a lot more to offer than the bare minimum presented in DM Carbide's post. He just didn't want to simply 'vomit' the suggestions forth if he wasn't certain Bea actually wanted them, which she established, by her reaction (or at least his interpretation of her reaction), she did not.

Dude – grow some thicker skin and quit jumping to conclusions so quickly. Remember that YOU'RE the newcomer here both in our PbP group and in-character. Things may not be exactly how you expected, and people might not act exactly how you thought or for the motives you expected. In this particular case, the only reason she “swept your advice under the rug” is because she happens to not care for Harrow-related superstitions. Nothing at all to do with you or her attitude towards you. I also tried to make it clear that aside from that, she listened to and agreed with your suggestions (through the DM's mouth).

Other than the letter of introduction, she has very little reason to trust or confide in you at this point, and acting defensive and offended is a great way to make sure that she doesn't in the future. I thought it rather generous of her to assume the best of you and welcome you into their planning meeting instead of asking that you wait until they were finished outside, like you'd normally do with a stranger.

The Leader of a new nation, particularly one who sees themselves as a Populist as, by her own words Bea does, must have a vision or goal for why they should be leader. I also didn't see a reason for that. I'm not saying the leader should be 'my way or the highway', I'm saying when somebody asks Bea if she is the Leader of this community, she should be able to immediately say "Yes, *here* is why."

*here* being whatever her vision for that community is. If she doesn't have one beyond 'I am trying to make up for the mistakes of my past', then she needs to know or consider why/how founding & leading a new nation makes up for the mistakes of her past. She needs a reason why she should lead & it needs to be something better than 'because I provide a +X bonus to that particular kingdom modifier. Mechanical bonuses are comparatively easy to find, causes that NPC's are willing to die for, much less so.

Don't presume to know and understand Bea's motivations, even if you've gone back and read the entire campaign thus far (which I don't believe you have). You've attributed entirely false ideas to her based on a few small interactions. She's NOT a “populist” ruler, she's just got a much higher dose of humility than you're accustomed to dealing with. She has no aspirations for power and no clear end-game or goal for some future kingdom, but that doesn't mean she's not a good and effective ruler. She's the leader because through the many trials they've been through, she's the one that for whatever reason began to take charge and the rest of the group gradually grew to trust her and her decisions (despite plenty of philosophical disagreements, such as in Katya's case). This extended naturally once more people started to arrive and she simply took charge because she was used to it at this point and everyone expected her to. She was caught by surprise by your question and answered the way she did simply because nobody has ever asked her that before. It was never put to a vote, nobody came up and told her “hey, you're the ruler now, congratulations!” and based on her actions, everybody in town just simply knows that she's in charge.

Rufus would also agree with you that we need to focus upon practicalities. Which gets into my second post. Rufus/I have thought a great deal about what practicalities the community needs to focus on. My next 'in-game' post after inquiring what insights Bea was interested in, was going to be to start making some of those recommendations & why they were important.

I will counter however your statement that those 'practicalities' are 'more' important than knowing what the Ruler's vision for the community is from the beginning. Suppose an NPC were to ask that very same question, because every one of them are; as I implied before, if the Ruler or whoever else the NPC encounters doesn't have an answer, what makes the NPC think they are really going to have an answer to the next question, which is 'do you know what you are doing?' My questions/statements weren't the 'whole' of the conversation, they were simply the 'beginning'.

Her particular leadership style also reflects on her answer though. She doesn't care to issue orders unilaterally, instead discussing it with her friends and confidants. To this point she hasn't had to worry about being “populist” or not because her ideas are mostly out of a genuine desire to help the community, and simply hasn't run into many disagreements. Obviously that may change in the near future. She then goes out and helps with the work to get it done, further gaining solidarity and support from those around her.

Anyone else in the party can correct me if I'm wrong here, but people follow Beatrix because they want to, not because anyone tells them they have to. Anyone else that's arrived in town not knowing what's going on simply had to ask anyone else in town once to find out who's in charge, and then upon seeing her in action quickly agree with the consensus.

Valid point, somewhat. Unfortunately, the system as it stands, doesn't differentiate & doesn't allow us to simply 'hand-wave' needing to fill those positions without taking the penalties. Partially, this is because, historically speaking, just about every Nation, at least in Europe which is the model Paizo is taking, started as a city-state & every city-state started as a town.

Screw the system as it stands, and screw historically speaking. We're here to focus on role-playing and telling a good story, which the mechanics give us a good framework to do, not the other way around. If you're more interested in getting the most out of the crunchy bits or historical realism or your own preconceptions of what should or shouldn't happen in Golarian or the game, maybe this isn't the game for you. You seem to have a very narrowly defined idea of what a ruler has to be and act like, and how the kingdom building should occur. Instead of coming in and seeing if your preconceptions fit how the rest of the group has come to realize it, you've in only a few days shown yourself to be combative and arrogant, in essence telling us that “we're doing it wrong”.

Please try to find a way to ease back on your criticism and take some time to get the feel for the flow of things before trying to steer the whole thing in your own direction.

All - I've been struggling for a while getting engaged into the thread and updating my character et al... so I've needed to make the difficult choice to back out of the campaign.

I corresponded with DM Carbide prior and he's happy to continue forging on with the five remaining, so with that I both thank and apologize as I back out the door bowing.

I'm sorry to see you go Edvard. I hope you had fun with us and its been a pleasure to RP with you. :)

Likewise. Best of luck in your future games.

Most of the Paizo site is now blocked at work, so I haven't had a chance to look at the past few days' worth of posts. Walls o'text don't look so good when read on a phone. Will try to catch up tonight, but since I'm packing for a long weekend at NASFiC I may not have time. Sorry about this--didn't anticipate that the work filter would start catching the boards.

Though I'm not blocked at work, and I've occasionally browsed, I've managed to exert the fullest extent of my will and not done any posting. Not once. I'm more proud of that than I should be, I think.

As for who should lead, Zlotii supports Bea. It's pretty much that simple. My PC want Bea to lead, so I, as a player, want Bea in the ruler slot for kingdom building. I'm not too concerned about the mechanics - they'll work out.

As for Zlotii's role, I picked councilor because that's the closest to the part I intend to play in-game. If someone else wants the gig, we can discuss it. I'd rather not be replaced by an NPC, though, because that wouldn't be any fun for me.

Also, Edvard - best of luck and all that.

Vasily Lyesnayevich wrote:

And honestly, right now we're not building a new kingdom. I mean, we as players are. But we as characters are building a village, maybe a frontier farming community, and maybe, if we're lucky, some sort of trading outpost.

Except if that were the case, we would be building at Oleg's, not the Stag Fort. We are building a Fort/Castle, not a trading post. We are building a defensible center of power, and the people who come to us are going to see it as such, not 'a village, maybe a frontier farming community'.

From an RP perspective, not building at Oleg's is abiding by the man's and his neighbors' wish for privacy. And Oleg's Trading Post has wooden walls because it's built in an old abandoned fort itself. We're doing pretty much the same thing Oleg already did, just in a more solidly built stronghold.

I also disagree that any NPCs who got sent out to the frontier are looking for a guiding philosophy for the structure of their future country more than they're looking for a place to have their own land, free from entanglements with the Brevic Houses or the Swordlords. I'm imagining them as not too different from the characters in Little House on the Prairie.

Our sponsors might want a guiding philosophy, and probably want it to be in line with their own, but I doubt a farmer is looking for anything more from the ruler of a flyspeck little not-even-technically-a-town than some sort of rule of law and, if they're lucky, assistance with a barn raising or a difficult birth.

I do agree that in the future, the ruler of this kingdom should be able to espouse some guiding principles as to how they see the growth of their kingdom and the shape in which they would like to develop its laws and practices. But that's so they can talk intelligently with other rulers, nobles, rich merchants, and the like. I just don't see that being something our faceless, nameless builders and farmers would care about when there's houses to be built and crops to be planted.

I agree with the bastard.

I have considered the content of my posts over the past several days and wish to request that GM Carbide remove my avatars from the active characters roster.
My behavior would have been wildly inappropriate for an infant. For an adult in full control of my faculties, it was even more so, not to mention disruptive of everyone's enjoyment of the game. I apologize.
Thank you for the invitation, I hope you continue to enjoy your game.

Are we going to try to move forward with the kingdom building, or the role-playing?

I think we could probably move forward with the first kingdom building phase, unless anyone else had something they wanted to address IC.

I'm going to go ahead and start filling out a few more of the positions on Katya's Sheet based on my list above, giving preference for PCs and previous PCs. If I filled in something that you wanted to play, please just change it, you don't have to ask me for permission.

Question concerning the High Priest position: should we give it to Sabrina or Jhod Kavken? Sabrina was a previous PC instead of just an NPC and certainly the more...interesting of the two choices, but never had much in the way of social graces and might be more difficult for Carbide to DMPC. Jhod would be the "safe" choice but again, not nearly as interesting.

My personal preference goes to Sabrina, just because she was such an interesting character and I'd like to have the opportunity to have more interaction with her. Any other thoughts?

Also, with Edvard and Rufus dropping, that leaves us down to four players. Of the four of us, I think we are strongly motivated to keep this going at this point, and it's a pretty good mesh of classes (arcane, divine, melee, ranged/skill) so we're not particularly missing out on anything if we press forward with just the four of us.

We didn't get a super strong response last time we opened up for submissions, but there was one other players that I thought had a strong character concept and background that I wouldn't mind reaching out to to see if he's still interested. Any other thoughts on our current party size?

I'd be up for a 5th, if DM C is up for it. I've PMed my choice if he's so inclined. Having said that, I'm perfectly happy with 4.

4 is a decent size as long as all the roles are covered. It's what the APs are tuned to, in any case, so DM C wouldn't have to change the encounters if he hasn't already. I'm fine with 4 or 5, but it looks like personality is the primary issue with new players. It's hard to tell what somebody's going to play like before they start writing.

I have something approximating consistent access again, thanks in part to finding the Wayfinder app for my phone. I'll be catching up with things over the next day or so. Thanks for your patience, all, and I hope this won't happen again anytime soon.

Welcome back, DM C. It would be very helpful, for me at least, if you (or anyone really) could provide a list of the highest priority decisions we need to make. This stuff is new to me.

I need some help deciding on someone for Treasurer. I moved Adam to Grand Diplomat (partly because he'd be more suited to it, and partly because we don't have anyone else who is) but now I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone who we could put in the other role. Ideas?

I haven't read back through all the posts, but how friendly is the party with Oleg? He's the only merchant in the region and might be good at being the Treasurer.

If it's an RP hurdle, it could be justified by convincing him that being on the council is a good way for him to protect his own interests and to steer development away from his secluded little area.

Yeah, he'd be an obvious good choice for those reasons. I guess I just hadn't really considered him because currently our efforts are at the old fort and I didn't want to have to take him away from his home. That could be a good IC RP opportunity though, if we want to ride out and invite him.

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PbemDM, the decisions that need to be made this kingdom building round are 1) which hex to annex (we can annex 1 hex per round at this kingdom size), 2) what improvements to build on hexes, such as roads and farms (we can build 2 improvements per round at this size), and 3) what building to build in our settlement (we can build 1 building per round at this size).

There are also edicts that can be issued, like 1) tax level, 2) whether to declare holidays, and 3) whether to actively promote people moving to the kingdom (i.e.- sending people out to look for more settlers to move here). And depending on whether we're using the expanded rules, there are also edicts for trade relations and diplomacy.

These things all have costs and benefits, obviously, and I don't want to try to go into that all here. There are 2 ways to go about kingdom building- one is just having it happen as an organic outgrowth of RP where we decide what the kingdom needs and build things on that basis and the other is approaching it as a sort of minigame or puzzle to maximize benefits to the kingdom. They're not necessarily mutually exclusive but in my brief prior experience with this the RP choices didn't sync up easily to what was best to play the building minigame.

My thoughts on this are that we should claim the hex where we want to put our farms (of the explored hexes on the map, I'd say the River Crossing hex looks best, with Fangberry Thicket hex second), then build a Farm improvement and start a Road going north to Oleg's Trading Post. That Road will take 5 kingdom rounds to finish, taking up 1 of our 2 Improvements slots for the next 5 rounds. I think both of these things are generally agreed on IC, too, so that's easy.

For the first Building, I'd say a House (the first House each turn doesn't count against the number of Buildings you can build each round) and a Mill to start off the Economy. A Dance Hall actually has the same Economic effect, but it has an Unrest/Crime penalty, too, and we probably don't want the first building we build to be a pseudo-brothel.

First priority is filling the various roles in the kingdom. You have a few NPCs & former PCs who are willing to step up, in various roles:

Oleg will cheerfully (OK, not that cheerfully) serve as Treasurer.
Akiros Ismort, after he gets back from his penance and atonement, could be persuaded to serve as General or Warden.
Jhod Kavken, Adam, or Sabrina could be your High Priest(ess).
Kesten Garess might be talked into the General or Warden roles.
Svetlana, you think, would do a reasonable job as Councilor.
Havrin would make a good Marshal, and could be adequate as General or Warden.
Adam would also be a fine Grand Diplomat, Councilor, or Spymaster.

If you haven't already, please make sure you go to the spreadsheet and ensure that your character is entered in a job that you're happy with. That will help narrow down whatever other roles we still need to fill.

If Akiros isn't available yet for Warden, Kesten could fill in for that spot.

Also, do we use Akiros' rage stats or non-raged for bonuses?

PbemDM, the decisions that need to be made this kingdom building round are 1) which hex to annex (we can annex 1 hex per round at this kingdom size)

So if we start with the hex at the fort, I agree that annexing the bridge hex would be a good move

2) what improvements to build on hexes, such as roads and farms (we can build 2 improvements per round at this size)

Based on our IC discussion, farms and roads sound about right.

3) what building to build in our settlement (we can build 1 building per round at this size).

A House doesn't count as our one building, so let's start with that and the Castle - again, I'm basing this more off of what we discussed IC (when IC agreements exist, we should use those first before metagaming, I think).

50 BP starting
Castle - 27 BP (cost is halved due to existing ruin)
House - 3 BP
Claim Hex - 1 BP
Roads - 2 BP
Farmlands - 2 BP

There are also edicts that can be issued, like 1) tax level, 2) whether to declare holidays, and 3) whether to actively promote people moving to the kingdom (i.e.- sending people out to look for more settlers to move here). And depending on whether we're using the expanded rules, there are also edicts for trade relations and diplomacy.

To start with, I think Standard Promotion and Normal Taxation are probably fine. For festivals, I propose 2: a celebration of the day we defeated the Stag Lord (I'm open to names for this one) and the traditional Harvest Feast on the Autumnal Equinox.

Re Akiros' stats, I haven't decided yet whether he's going to retrain his barbarian levels.

-Posted with Wayfinder

With Oleg as treasurer, we don't have any gaps in the roles. I do have a few suggestions, though:

General: Kestin Garess - unless I'm mistaken, his last name makes him of noble blood. The Doktor would prefer the head of the Army to be nobility. Besides, I don't remember who Jacyn is.

Warden: Akiros - he seems like a tough sumb@%&&

Other than that, I agree with karl / bea on the particulars.

Suggestion for holiday: Victory Day (much better than Conquest Day, though no more apt)

Jacyn was a previous player - I think you came in to replace him after he left, actually. Pretty sure he was one of the original players that started the campaign and was with us a very long time. Class was Cavalier, very knight on horseback kind of guy. His profile is in the previous character section - I suggest giving him a look. I'd be OK with swapping general and warden roles or whatever though.

-Posted with Wayfinder

Forgot about Jacyn--yes, he's also available. Having some backups is not a bad thing, though.

OK, since nobody has opined on Sabrina as high priest(ess) I'm going to go ahead and leave her in that role. And I'll put in Oleg as treasurer. Is anyone interested in playing inviting him through rp or we just want to hand-wave it?

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I'm fine handwaving if it will help get the story back on track. But Vasily doesn't have any sort of relationship with Oleg, so it wouldn't have been his scene anyway.

I can only concentrate on one thing at a time. I'd prefer we get the "Kingdom Building turn complete" note from DM C, then we can get back to the RP.

Just like the subject says. The campaign is still very early in Chapter 1. I was originally a player, but after the original DM disappeared I took it over and have been playing my character as a DMPC. That's gotten kind of old, so I'm recruiting a replacement, to join the party when they next return to Oleg's.

Character Creation:
-15 point buy
-Average starting gold
-Max hp at first level
-2 traits (one campaign trait, one other)
-Core Rulebook and APG, anything else to be approved separately
-Start at level 1 (probably), with as much experience as the rest of the party. If they run into a lot of things before they get back to Oleg's, maybe you'll start at second level.

Here's the catch: The character you'd be replacing is a wizard, and he's the only full arcane caster in the group. The party consists of a halfling court bard, a human paladin of Erastil, a human ranger, a half-elf cavalier, the aforementioned wizard (human diviner), and a gnome cleric of Irori. So they definitely could use an arcanist.

For recruitment, I'd like a short (few paragraphs) character description, giving some information about why you want to civilize a large stretch of godsforsaken wilderness and how you come to have the opportunity to do so. Depending on interest I'll keep recruitment open for at least a few days, and make a decision by next weekend. You'd be joining the party probably a week or so after that, depending on how things go this week.

Links to the rest of the party, the game thread, and the discussion thread are on my profile. I don't know how to describe my reffing style, so I'll let it speak for itself.

Hello just wanted to dot for VERY heavy interest. I would love to make a character to try I just have a question really quick. Is it PBP i ask cause currently I do not have internet to support skype and things of that sort.

Possible character Sorcerer Elemental bloodline maybe take secondary class Magus if allowed mostly just want to play sorcerer

Hello, I would like to submit my character Katya Volkv for consideration.

I am sorry for the length of the character sheet but I had made it for a previous submission and had been very detailed.

Hey I bow out to katya I was there when she applied and I totally think she has better shot than I do so thanks again

@Katya best of luck :)

I would not want you to bow out on my account Raventhorn. Please do not let me stop you from trying. Though I do thank you for doing so in any case. It is very generous of you.

If both of you are bowing out for each other, I will step in.

Oh no. I am still applying, I just don't wish to make someone feel like they shouldn't apply as well.

Dot.

Didn't catch this before my edit timer ran out, but I know Katya is currently statted out for 20 point buy. I can easily change the stat block to 15 though it wont significantly change the style of play or the design choices behind the stat allocation.

Dotting for interest. Thinking a Verdant bloodline Sorceress, likely a scion of the Medvyed noble house. Will try to get it banged out before the evening.

Will flesh out her backstory as it comes to me, but, this is a decent start, I believe.

I'm thinking I might drum up a Wizard of some sort. Actually, following a run through the arcane classes, I fancy giving Magus a shot. I'm thinking a Bladebound Magus, running from Brevoy following a successful duel for him that killed a Swordlord's son, incurring his wrath as he used his magic in the duel.

Have a few that I would like your input on what you would suggest would be best. These are all made by 20 point buy and Krol hasn't got a KM trait ( I think) but I can ammend this when you make your decision or I will ammend them before you make your descision.

Davor Mason Half-orc Inqisitor of Gorum (strong and silent type)

Krolmnite Underhill Gnome Summoner (chocky fun type with a ediolon's personal page so easy for you and players to differenciate between the two)

Poshment Underhill Gnome Bard (no relative above and you might not want another bard, though this one is just a normal bard who pissed off King Irovetti.)

If none of these suit then I'll bow out as you already have some very interesting parties.

Raventhorn I can speak for that he's a great roleplayer and Kiradia I only saw her backstory (that's how I do my judging for game spots) and she had an amazing story, same with others. It was a shame she didn't make the cut as I could come up with so many oppitunities to make something based on her background. Whispers in the night. A sudden flash of a forgotten past memory. A creature of unknocn origin appearing in the kingdom and so on.

Again, I can only speak for Raventhorn from experience and Kiradia for her great backstory that I could've done so much.

Thanks, all, for the interest. Hu5tru, one question--I notice you have 5 cantrips. I may be missing something, but I thought sorcerers started with 4. Or is that what you'll pick if you start at second level?

ETA: One other question for everyone: This isn't a showstopper, but have you previously run or played in a KM campaign?

@ DM Carbide - APG Sorcerer variant human favored class bonus allows for taking extra spells every level vs skill point or hit point. It is too good to pass up, but if it is a problem, I could use the extra skill point, too.

Might as well throw this up there as well, since it is a kingmaker group

Thanks, all, for the interest. Hu5tru, one question--I notice you have 5 cantrips. I may be missing something, but I thought sorcerers started with 4. Or is that what you'll pick if you start at second level?

ETA: One other question for everyone: This isn't a showstopper, but have you previously run or played in a KM campaign?

my character Davor WAS in one, however the DM dissappeared.

Also aso you said it isn't a shotstopper, but I am running a conversion of KM for 6 players by DM Alex though that's because I've been waiting so damn long to actually play it. Also very good at not meta-gaming and simply thinking "What would my character do?"

My alchemist is in a KM campaign however the DM replied once a week and I'd rarther have a game that moved faster than a geriatric snail :p

You can check my profile to see what the group is going atm. They've just started exploring the stolen lands really.

I have, yes, but I can separate player knowledge from character knowledge. And, truth be told, we started playing when the books first came out and I have forgotten the bulk of everything. My RL group was an insular group of war/power gaming Norwegians who turned the campaign into a grindfest.

I've run a heavily customised version which involved pitting two groups against one another. As we had to change so much in order to run it, I've not really played KM vanilla, so to speak.

I have not played nor run a Kingmaker campaign.

@ DM Carbide - APG Sorcerer variant human favored class bonus allows for taking extra spells every level vs skill point or hit point. It is too good to pass up, but if it is a problem, I could use the extra skill point, too.

** spoiler omitted **...

Ah--I'd forgotten about that. Thanks!

Paizo Fan here, with the Bladebound Magus and Aldori renegade, Lythal Nemur. Please feel free to ask any questions you like.

Thanks, Lythal. I haven't had a chance to read over the Magus rules yet, so this is a good excuse.

DM Aron: I don't think the inquisitor gives enough arcane support, although that will depend to quite an extent on spell mix. I also haven't had a chance to read over the Summoner class in detail, so I'd like to do that before I say anything about whether that would be better than the bard.

Thanks, Lythal. I haven't had a chance to read over the Magus rules yet, so this is a good excuse.

DM Aron: I don't think the inquisitor gives enough arcane support, although that will depend to quite an extent on spell mix. I also haven't had a chance to read over the Summoner class in detail, so I'd like to do that before I say anything about whether that would be better than the bard.

That's fine if you want to make sure you have a balanced group. He is more of a Mellee class anyway.

howdy all. i am going to withdraw my character from this competition. I am currently in the process of starting up my own KM campaign and figured I could use Tityanna as an NPC there. Apologies if this causes any confusion.

Krolmnite Underhill Gnome Summoner (chocky fun type with a ediolon's personal page so easy for you and players to differenciate between the two)[/url]

[tangent]That's pretty awesome, the backstory behind how your Summoner and his Eidolon linked up.[/tangent]

Any news on whether a decision has been made yet?

DM Aron Marczylo wrote:

Krolmnite Underhill Gnome Summoner (chocky fun type with a ediolon's personal page so easy for you and players to differenciate between the two)[/url]

[tangent]That's pretty awesome, the backstory behind how your Summoner and his Eidolon linked up.[/tangent]

Thanks. When I first looked at the summoner I was a little overwhelmed with a backstory since the Eidolon could look like anything technically :p. Just realised a better feat for the summon is multi-attack to make the secondary attacks more accurate.

We'll likely be making a decision soon. If anyone else wants to be considered, please submit a character asap.

character stats will be provided if accepted.

brahma henna, female human wizard

Character background

Male Human Arcane Sorcerer, member of House Orlovski and possibly a coward.

No problem, Hu5tru, and I apologize for not following up on this sooner--it's been a rough couple of weeks at work and at home (two assessments, replacing a car, and assorted other fun). I'll look over the rest of the submissions and make a decision by the weekend.

i'd like to submit a human witch. I will make a full sheet, but ehres the concept. I figure between sleep hex, and an elements patron, Wencis willl be able to offer arcane support in any combat.

Wencis loves magic, but was never very skilled. He learned a few cantrips but anything tougher was beyond his grasp, until he met Blue. Blue is his familiar, a highly intellegent weasel, who teaches wencis a different way to cast spells.

Blue and Wencis first met after a strange dream, in which a being of great Elemental power, spoke to him. This stranger bade him seek out a waterfall near by, and when he did so, he found Blue. Wencis still receives occasional dreams from the stranger, and lately he has begun to elarn things from these dream, like a hex that can put anything to sleep.

Wencis is a bit unpredictable, usually landing him in interesting situations, much to Blues displeasure.

You folks don't make this easy, do you? Anyway, Katya Volkv, please report to the game thread. Everyone else, thank you for your submissions and interest. If Katya doesn't show up in a few days, I'll be back.

You folks don't make this easy, do you? Anyway, Katya Volkv, please report to the game thread. Everyone else, thank you for your submissions and interest. If Katya doesn't show up in a few days, I'll be back.

Lol, I had the same problem with 3 new people jumping into my recruitment thread the day I was to make the decision lol.

Good luck Katya Volkv.

Well, I'm back--looking for a divine caster of some flavor, to replace a cleric. The campaign is still fairly early in Chapter 1.

Character Creation:
-15 point buy
-Start at level 2, with as much experience as the rest of the party. (I'm tracking experience at this point.)
-Average starting gold + 500 gp
-Max hp at first level, roll for second level but take average for anything under average (i.e., for a d8 roll 1-4 take 5, anything else take what you roll).
-2 traits (one campaign trait, one other)
-Core Rulebook, APG, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat; anything else to be approved separately

The party consists of a halfling court bard, a human paladin of Erastil, a human ranger, a half-elf cavalier, a human conjurer, and the gnome cleric of Irori (the one you'll be replacing). So they'll need someone with decent healing.

For recruitment, I'd like a short (few paragraphs) character description, giving some information about why you want to civilize a large stretch of godsforsaken wilderness and how you come to have the opportunity to do so. Crunch is not necessary at this point. Depending on interest I'll keep recruitment open for at least a few days, and make a decision by next weekend. You'd probably be joining the party right away, depending on how things go this next week.

Other stuff: The game is at this point kind of slow-paced, mainly due to an excess of RL on the part of 2/3 of the players (and the DM, sometimes). I'd like to try to pick that up a little, so I'd prefer you be good for a post or more a day during the week, with weekends more catch as catch can. You can look at the game thread to get some idea of my reffing style. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or post them here.

I will make a Cleric! Torag okay? Are there any other requirements? I have been scouring the threads to get into a kingmaker campaign. This is standard PbP too right?

Here's an archer build cleric of Erastil for your consideration. Backstory, personality and apperance are here. I'll come up with a stat block in a bit. Information is contained in the profile.

Can I have the deadeye trait from Orcs of Golarion? Fits in really well with my character concept.

I've been looking for a Kingmaker game for sometime now and have been itching to play a cleric so here goes.

Since you said crunch is not important I will skip it for now but as a basic concept Sabrina will be a passive PC and while she'll be a cleric, she will not start with any knowledge of religion.

Her leadership role would take one of two paths. Either as a Councilor or High Priestess.

Can I submit a character?

/tries to act innocent
Bluff 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (20) + 2 = 22

Finished my character sheet. It's all contained in the profile. Let me know if there's anything that needs changing.

Can I submit a character?

/tries to act innocent
Bluff 1d20 + 2

Unmoved DM is unmoved. Don't you have a cart to fix?

godsDMit wrote:

Can I submit a character?

/tries to act innocent
Bluff 1d20 + 2

Unmoved DM is unmoved. Don't you have a cart to fix?

Pffft, I dont know how to fix stuff. I just ride a horse, stab stuff with a lance, and occasionally get mauled by a bear. Ya know, Cavalier type stuff.

There was one other thing I'd like to know--have any of you ever run or played in a previous KM campaign?

I haven't run or been in one but I've wanted to. I did pull stuff from stolen lands for use in a custom campaign back in Oct.

It basically amounted to Olag's Outpost and bandits raids on it. As for the story and deeper into the AP, I haven't looked at them in enough detail to remember anything. Certainly nothing story related. Other than Olag's, what I stole was limited to stat blocks and such.

I was almost in a Kingmaker Campaign, but it fell through before getting off the ground. I've wanted to play in the campaign ever since.

Rolling for health

1d8 ⇒ 6

And I'll take it!

I will make a Cleric! Torag okay? Are there any other requirements? I have been scouring the threads to get into a kingmaker campaign. This is standard PbP too right?

Torag is OK, no other requirements that I can think of now, and it's standard PbP.

Can I have the deadeye trait from Orcs of Golarion? Fits in really well with my character concept.

I'll check when I get home--d20 is blocked at work, for some reason.

I just notice that for some reason the forum messed up and posted my unedited version. Here's the real submission.

I've been looking for a Kingmaker game for some time now and have been itching to play a cleric.

Since you said crunch is not important I will skip it for now but as a basic concept Sabrina will be a passive PC and while she'll be a cleric of Erastil, she will not start with knowledge (religion). Instead she will have a more primal, almost druidic connection with Erastil, which will manifest as knowledge of nature and a survival trait.

She has no avatar yet and more detail will come into play after initial feedback and crunch development but here are the basics just to get my hat in the ring.

Her leadership role would take one of two paths. Either as a Councilor or High Priestess depending on how she grows with the campaign. Civilizing the land isn't much of a priority or interest to her, however, she will be developing an interest to be part of a community. So being a part of creating one that is in familiar territory would be extremely fulfilling for her. Same end, different motive.

And here she is. Class, stats and domains are decided. Final crunch won't be available until I get onto hero labs but the skills she'll focus on are knowledge nature and survival (with a survival trait) and later on, once she becomes more civilized - diplomacy.