Richochet shot
As you level up your reliance on magical weapons grows. After a while its magic or nothing. That works far better on one magic weapon or at maximum 2 .
Define "need" and "required". Not even quick draw is needed, you're just going to suck without it. Even with it you're going to suck.
In order to really have a successful throwing build you either need a blinkback belt or ricochet toss.
Aside from that you'll want:
Clustered Shots
Far Shot (possibly)
Improved Precise Shot
Point Blank Master (or their is another feat that removes the AoO for making a ranged attack with thrown weapons but it has extra requirements that if you're playing a class with access to Weapon Spec you shouldn't use)
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Shot
*Starry Grace is really awesome and combos well with...
Startoss Style, Startoss Shower, Startoss Comet or...
Two Weapon Fighting, Improved & Greater and ignore Starry Grace
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Define "need" and "required". Not even quick draw is needed, you're just going to suck without it. Even with it you're going to suck.
In order to really have a successful throwing build you either need a blinkback belt or ricochet toss.
Perhapse I should have been more clear, but the idea is to have the build utilize disposable ammo via darts, or deadly dealer or something.
Disposable ammo builds work okay at low levels, but don't do well as you reach higher levels.
You want magic weapons. Enchanting ammo is an expensive waste.
Thrown weapon builds are basically archery builds with extra feats required to work. In general they're not very good.
The only classes that can really make it work well are Fighter and Warpriest (especially Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain).
Unless you use this:Returning Weapon (Ex) (Ultimate Intrigue pg. 15): The vigilante has a signature type of thrown weapon that returns to him. Choose a type of thrown weapon, such as throwing axes. Whenever the vigilante uses that type of weapon, it automatically returns as if it had the returning property. At 14th level, if the vigilante chose a type of thrown weapon that is treated as ammunition, such as shuriken, and buys a set of 50 magic ammunition of that type, he automatically replenishes them at no cost and never runs out. If he chose a non-ammunition thrown weapon instead, he can apply the magical properties of the first weapon he throws in a round to any nonmagical thrown weapons of that type he throws that round. This allows him to make a full attack with the benefits of his magical thrown weapon, even though it only returns next round.Admittedly, 14th can be a bit late for getting weapon enhancements
If you're starting at 14th level sure, aside from that it doesn't work (as returning weapon quality just doesn't do the job for focusing on thrown weapon attacks).
Hmm ok so then...what would be a good concealable ranged weapon? Best I can think of is the hand crossbow.Throw Anything. Because it's not a weapon until you decide to chuck it at someone.
With Gloves of Improvised Might, thrown improvised weapon builds are pretty good now. Adventurers armory 2 really made improvised weapon builds viable for higher level play. IMO they are much better than a "disposable ammo" as you only have the glove cost vs the constant cost for each piece of magic ammo.
Also Adventurers armory adds new improvised weapon types so there are ones that have a 20' range, a crit range of 19-20, count as silver, are on fire, ect. You now have a pretty good variety of options.
Vital Strike is good if you're chucking large enough weapons and want to stay mobile or get more damage per throw rather than damage per round.
Vital Strike is good if you're chucking large enough weapons and want to stay mobile or get more damage per throw rather than damage per round.
Throwing doesn't really shine for this. for instance, a Totem spear is looking at 2d10 while an orc hornbow is more damage [4d6], has more range [10 vs 80], can switch up ammo types, ect...
Mobile and heavy thrown weapons [10' ranges mostly] really don't mix well.
Caber tossing! w00t!
Hmm ok so then...what would be a good concealable ranged weapon? Best I can think of is the hand crossbow.
Gloves of Storing and a bow.
Vital Strike is good if you're chucking large enough weapons and want to stay mobile or get more damage per throw rather than damage per round.Throwing doesn't really shine for this. for instance, a Totem spear is looking at 2d10 while an orc hornbow is more damage [4d6], has more range [10 vs 80], can switch up ammo types, ect...
Mobile and heavy thrown weapons [10' ranges mostly] really don't mix well.
We'd already established the restriction as throwing weapons. Not really worried about whether it compares to bows. Nobody this side of a storm giant is going to beat bows with throwing weapons if you start optimizing.
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I'd call the absolute minimum for a thrower to be point blank shot, precise shot (because you're going to be close enough that someone will be in melee, possibly you) and quick draw. To be effective you'll also want either rapid shot or TWF, possibly both, and close quarters thrower is advisable for your own safety. False opening is good for sneak attackers.
For a concealable weapon it's possible to make a sling work. There are ways of having otherwise non-concealable weapons available - Claxon's glove of storing, or a transformative or glamered weapon, or the umbral gear rogue talent, or spells like instant weapon, holy ice weapon, hidden blades etc.
Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon.
Seriously. Put both hands on the polearm after you are done throwing things. Have fun with AoOs.
Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon.
Seriously. Put both hands on the polearm after you are done throwing things. Have fun with AoOs.
"Done throwing things"
I understand these words separately, but together they puzzle me.
Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon.
Seriously. Put both hands on the polearm after you are done throwing things. Have fun with AoOs.
"Done throwing things"
I understand these words separately, but together they puzzle me.
Sometimes it isn't your turn. You can't throw things when the enemies are taking their actions, but you can stab them sometimes.
Sometimes it isn't your turn. You can't throw things when the enemies are taking their actions, but you can stab them sometimes.Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon.
Seriously. Put both hands on the polearm after you are done throwing things. Have fun with AoOs.
"Done throwing things"
I understand these words separately, but together they puzzle me.
Snap Shot feat line FTW!
So, spend two feats and 9 levels to do what you can do at first level with a long pointy stick?
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Yes!
Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon.
Seriously. Put both hands on the polearm after you are done throwing things. Have fun with AoOs.
"Done throwing things"
I understand these words separately, but together they puzzle me.
Each round, you can only throw so many things (your iteratives + whatever extra shots feats and Haste give you), but you still have Attacks of Opportunity left over. Since you need high Dexterity to throw decently, get Combat Reflexes so that you have 1 + DexMod Attacks of Opportunity(*), and make use of them to dish out additional hurt if anything provokes an Attack of Opportunity.
(*)Alternatively, if you worship Torag and your melee weapon is a Warhammer, and your Wisdom is even higher than your Dexterity (like for instance you are a Cleric or Inquisitor), get Torag's Divine Fighting Technique instead of Combat Reflexes so that you have 1 + WisMod Attacks of Opportunity. Even counts as Combat Reflexes for feat prerequisites.
* * * * * * * *
Alternatives to throwing magic weapons and worrying about how to get them to return:
- Be an Intelligence-focused Alchemist and do a Mad Bomber build, including stuffing as many debuff and battlefield control Bomb Discoveries on your Bombs as you can make good use of. You also get a free deluxe version of Throw Anything (better than the regular feat) in case you need to throw something else.
- Be an Underground Chemist Rogue VMC Alchemist. See Alchemist above, but now you have Bombs AND Sneak Attack, although unfortunately no Bomb Discoveries. Underground Chemist fills in the holes in VMC Alchemist's Bomb usage.
- Be a Card Caster Magus. You can use your Arcane Pool to enchant thrown weapons, including putting the Returning property on them. If you use this on your Harrow Deck (you get the Deadly Dealer feat free -- just make sure you always have at least 1 Arcane Pool left over), you treat it as a pack of ammunition, all enchanted with 1 use of Arcane Pool (unfortunately, I see no indication that this works on other packs of ammunition, such as Shurikens). Unlike a Cartomancer Witch, you suffer no mechanical penalty (other than a bit of expense for the replacement) if some of your Harrow Deck is lost or destroyed, and can use an incomplete Harrow Deck with your abilities; you are not mechanically required to respect the mystique of the Harrow, so you could be a totally non-believing card shark if you want -- just watch out for those fanatical True Believers.
- Be a Ninja, and use your Sneak Attack to overcome the Damage Reduction that you would normally need enchanted weapons for. Hard to set up, although somewhat easier than Rogue; works with Shurikens (and you can get Ninja Tricks to boost your number of shots, although watch out for stacking penalties to hit if you stack this with feats that give you more attacks). Ninjas also get their own kind of Bombs that work completely differently from Alchemist Bombs.
Snap Shot feat line FTW!Sometimes it isn't your turn. You can't throw things when the enemies are taking their actions, but you can stab them sometimes.Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon.
Seriously. Put both hands on the polearm after you are done throwing things. Have fun with AoOs.
"Done throwing things"
I understand these words separately, but together they puzzle me.
Huh. For some reason I mistakenly thought the Snap Shot line was for bows only. Very interesting.
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Since you need high Dexterity to throw decently,false you only need high dex if your doing a dex build there are other ways to make throwing builds other than dex
Not everyone can get a Belt of Mighty Hurling, which you would normally need to get Strength to Attack Roll for thrown weapons. The other possibility that comes to mind is Guided Hand, but that only works if your deity's favored weapon is a thrown weapon AND you are able to afford the otherwise garbage feat Channel Smite (required for Guided Hand), and it only works for that particular type of weapon. Admittedly a lot of other stuff has come out recently, so I might have missed some other option for throwing without needing high Dexterity, but the examples that I can find are not easy to get at low levels (well, technically Guided Hand is, but having to take a trap feat for the prerequisite hurts especially badly at low levels).
Problem with Belt of Mighty Hurling and Blinkback Belt are they take up the belt slot which also is your physical ability score enhancing slot.
For non-fighters you basically are required to have Blinkback Belt.
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Yes but are any of them like ABSOLUTELY necessary for it to function?
It's contextual to how you visualize the combat functioning. To a certain degree, you can control the actions of the NPCs and create a situation where your ideal tactic is almost always viable.
For example, Precise Shot only has value if your plan includes having the enemy be occupied in melee by other creatures when you throw things at them.
If your plan is to stand on a hill with zombies slowly climbing up towards you, as hail thrown objects upon them (like a tower defense game), then precise shot really isn't a great plan.