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Silver Crusade

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Arcane Healer does not alter any bardic performances. It trades away Lore Master and Versatile Performance.

Filidh is what is replacing inspire courage and it replaces it with Echoes of Nature’s Song. Getting a bonus to AC and all reflex saves is in my opinion a fair trade. Especially since the bonus is an insight bonus and will probably stack with almost everything. It also trades out suggestion for Divinatory Song, which to me is a strait upgrade. The other performances that are traded out are also fairly decent. They also get the ability to trade spells for extra rounds of performance and to ignore arcane spell failure from armor.

Are you really going to be disappointed when the entire party including summons gets a bonus to AC and reflex saves? The fighter, cleric and wizard all have poor reflex saves. The wizard typically has crap for AC, the rogue and the cleric usually don't have particularly high AC, and all of them have lower HP than the full BAB classes. The AC bonus also improves your touch AC so helps to protect you from touch attacks including, but not limited to spells, and incorporeal creatures. It seems like Echoes of Natures song is actually more beneficial to the prototypical party than inspire courage.

That's kind of what I'm thinking, unlike inspire courage which seems to only really be useful to frontliners, Echoes of natures song is useful to basically everybody.

Silver Crusade

Claxon wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Also a oracle with the life mystery could be a great choice. They can get access to life link, which is great for healing hp damage.

To be honest I already build that one and it does work great, but I'm trying to build a trifecta of these things. But the more I work on it the more I feel you may be right and the issue is actually the bard itself.

Yeah, unfortunately the bard just isn't a great chassis for group healing as you're finding.

Can you make it do it? Kind of. In the same way you can make a square peg fit in a rough hole by whittling away the size of the peg until it fits. But you're going to leave sizeable gaps all around it because of a basic mismatch.

As to inspire courage being "damned important", it is typically the biggest thing the rest of the group is going to be looking for (in combat) for a bard to do. Now sure, not all bards do it.

But if someone brought a bard without inspire courage and instead had mediocre healing in it's place...well I wouldn't say anything because I'm not that kind of person, but I'd be disappointed. Inspire courage is really great assuming you've got 2+ people in the group who are going to focus on doing martial things every round (which the prototypical party does, you know fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric).

Honestly the more I think about it the more the bard just feels like a 5th wheel that is nice but not really needed.

Bards are a great addition to a party IMO, I'd rather have a classic bard than a rogue in the party. Especially if the bard is cool with picking up something to allow them to disable magical traps and invest in disable device, there's very little a chained rogue brings to the table IMO.

But, if you have the classic party roster trying to make a healing bard with a cleric in the group probably isn't great for trying to cover all bases.

I guess one question we should have all asked long...

Truth be told there wasn't really any, I tend to make builds that can largely take care of themselves.

Silver Crusade

Claxon wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Also a oracle with the life mystery could be a great choice. They can get access to life link, which is great for healing hp damage.

To be honest I already build that one and it does work great, but I'm trying to build a trifecta of these things. But the more I work on it the more I feel you may be right and the issue is actually the bard itself.

Yeah, unfortunately the bard just isn't a great chassis for group healing as you're finding.

Can you make it do it? Kind of. In the same way you can make a square peg fit in a rough hole by whittling away the size of the peg until it fits. But you're going to leave sizeable gaps all around it because of a basic mismatch.

As to inspire courage being "damned important", it is typically the biggest thing the rest of the group is going to be looking for (in combat) for a bard to do. Now sure, not all bards do it.

But if someone brought a bard without inspire courage and instead had mediocre healing in it's place...well I wouldn't say anything because I'm not that kind of person, but I'd be disappointed. Inspire courage is really great assuming you've got 2+ people in the group who are going to focus on doing martial things every round (which the prototypical party does, you know fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric).

Honestly the more I think about it the more the bard just feels like a 5th wheel that is nice but not really needed.

Silver Crusade

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

What weapon you use does not really matter that much; long spear would work fine. As a bard you are never going to match a full BAB in combat and that is not what you should be trying to do. What you should be trying to do is to contribute in a meaningful way. If you go with the longspear you might want to look at shield brace. Doing that along with combat reflexes would make you a fairly effective tank.

The way I see it Unicorns are basically warhorses not riding horses. As such I think using more than light armor is appropriate. You may not need to go to heavy armor but using medium armor I think fits. Since you cannot use metal armor, using medium armor may work out better anyways. Finding a dragonhide or ironwood breastplate should not be too hard. Until then laminar (horn) armor should work.

You have not mentioned what race your character is going to be. The human bonus feat would make getting the build online quicker, but it can be done with any race. Many of the feats you need require a +1 BAB, which means you can’t take them at 1st level. Medium armor proficiency and combat reflexes don’t have a BAB requirement so those could be taken as a 1st level human bard. You could get power attack, shield focus and shield brace by 7th level as a human.

Using a greyflame spear is a good idea. The damage does not scale up, but it at lower levels it does more damage, and makes better use of a very limited resource. Being able to bypass DR and counting as a good and silver weapon really fits the whole unicorn theme. In fact, this fits a lot better than the channeling force.

I try to make builds that anybody can theoretically jump into so I tend to make them race agnostic, so to speak. But taking all this advice into consideration this is what I came up with.

Arcane Healer/Filidh Bard

Traits:Reactionary
Magical Lineage(Dance of 100 Cuts)

1.Fey Foundling
3.Selective Channeling
5.Extra Channel
7.Power Attack
9.Lingering Performance
11.Divine Interference
13.Encouraging Spell

Weapon of Choice:Greyflame Longspear

Spells to Remember
Reinvigorating Wind:Level 2
Accept Affliction:Level 3
Purging Finale:Level 3
Song of Kyonin:Level 4

Phylactery of Positive Channeling
Strand of Prayer Beads

I figured making it so a single cure spell can heal back half of my health could let me take a reliable beating.

Silver Crusade

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Telling someone that you have to be able to do X if you are class Y is b&&~#+##. The name you put in the class section of your character sheet does not matter. What really matters is that your character should have a viable concept and be able to contribute to the success of the party in a meaningful way. I write up a “Rogue” using any number of classes without having a single level of rouge. In fact, the standard rogue is probably the least effective way to write up a rogue. One of the most effective “Rogues” is the archaeologist bard. They trade away all performances for a short-term luck bonus. I doubt any group would prefer a chained rogue over an archeologist bard.

Inspire courage is a decent ability but is not the only useful performance a bard has. It is also a morale bonus which is fairly common, so it does not always stack with a lot of things. Echo of Natures Song grants an insight bonus to AC and reflex saves. Insight bonuses are fairly rare so will probably stack with just about everything. Which ability is going to be more useful is going to depend on the party. In a party with a heavy focus on melee and ranged combat without any way to boost themselves inspire courage is probably more useful. In a party heavy on spell casters with lower defenses Echo of Natures Song is going to do more. Even a combat focused party will still find the bonus to AC and reflex saves useful.

While healing is necessary, the character needs to contribute more to the success of the party to be a competent character. Divinatory Song is actually pretty decent. Getting a 4th level cleric spell at 5th level as a spell like ability is nothing to be sneezed at. Like any bard this character offers a lot of useful non-combat abilities. So, the real problem is how does this character contribute to combat?

Bards have a medium BAB and are 6/9 casters. This means they are not the best at either combat or spell casting but are competent at both. Both specializations require investing in...

A couple of things with that

1. If that's the case wouldn't I just be better off using a long spear anyway? It would have the same damage, and reach and would be thematic to boot.

2. As much as I hate needing items for a build to function, would the greyflame enchant be appropriate as a substitute for channeling force? That way I can focus on other things.

Everything else aside from the armor is sound and I was gonna go that route anyway. Idk I just can't see someone who makes a pact with a unicorn walking around in full heavy armor.

Silver Crusade

Claxon wrote:
Also a oracle with the life mystery could be a great choice. They can get access to life link, which is great for healing hp damage.

To be honest I already build that one and it does work great, but I'm trying to build a trifecta of these things. But the more I work on it the more I feel you may be right and the issue is actually the bard itself.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The biggest problem with Channeling Force is you have so few uses of channel energy to use. Spending 2 feats to get +6 to damage 5 times per day at 12th level is not worth it. It also leaves you no channel energies to heal. You are also taking power attack on a medium BAB character that does not have any accuracy boosters. This character is going to struggle to land a blow against the boss, and when they do their chance of confirming a critical hit is going to be extremely low. Using channeling force against minions would work but seems like a waste of resources. You have a unique concept but are struggling to figure out how to make it work.

Why are you focusing on a finesse build? Unicorns are not dainty little ponies; they are large horses. They don’t use weapon finesse. Instead of going with a DEX build switch to a STR based build with minimal DEX. As a bard you are only proficient with light armor, but you can spend your feats to become proficient with medium and even heavy armor. As a divine caster you don’t worry about arcane spell failure so can cast your spells in plate mail. Bards are also proficient with long sword so use that instead of a rapier. Bards are also proficient with shields which will boost your AC higher. If you really need the damage, you can always drop the shield and use the longsword two handed for extra damage. Using it two handed would also boost the damage form power attack.

Feats

1: Armor Proficiency (Medium)
3: Power Attack
5: Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
7: Channeling Force
9: Lingering Performance
11: Improved Critical (Longsword)
13: Divine Interference

Now you are a tank. You do decent damage without having to blow limited resources. You can wade through the minions fairly easily. You don’t have as many uses of channeling energy, but you are also not reliant on it for damage. It now acts as kind of smite evil that lets you do extra damage when you really need it. If you don’t need to use channeling force, you can use channel energy...

Alright how about this, if inspired courage is that damn important to making a bard function, how about we swap out filidh for fortune-teller?

Silver Crusade

Java Man wrote:
You might consider arcane strike and/or fencing grace as damage boosters, instead of power attack or channeling force.

Arcane Strike doesn't scale as well as Channeling force, and fencing grace requires another feat on an already tight build.

Besides this build uses the filidh bard archetype which switches out arcane for divine magic so it wouldn't work anyway.

Silver Crusade

DeathlessOne wrote:

I'll just chime in here to clarify one thing: in combat healing CAN BE quite effective, and you don't have to spend that much character resources to make it. However, it becomes LESS effective the higher the group tends to play on the optimization scale. If you want to play the game on "advanced", "expert", "master", or "Insanity" mode ... healing is best left for after the fights. ... Unless you are a really good healer.

An example of a really good healer would be someone built with elite NPC stats being able to out heal mythic gestalt characters, without being gestalt themselves AND still be able to deal damage in a reliable manner. But that is cranking up the optimization to the maximum and bucking several basic assumptions about how to build spellcasters.

Don't give up on your idea. Just make sure that the table you play it at isn't going to make it unpalatable to play.

Yeah after thinking about it, I've decided to go with the rapier route. It still does what I want it to while still having decent damage Plus it just flows better, the longspear route while more thematic, feels like trying to put a round peg into a square hole.

Silver Crusade

Claxon wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
TxSam88 wrote:

I'll be frank, and please do not be offended, I wouldn't want either of these in my party. As a combat character they are both pretty weak, and as a healer, they are both giving up too much healing to fuel their weak combat stuff.

As a bard their BAB isn't good enough to count on getting hits, and you aren't doing anything to increase that chance to hit (and you are losing chances to hit with power attack). So while having plenty of AOOs would be cool for the extra damage from Channel Force, it's just not going to give as much bonus damage as it seems.

if I were forced to choose between these 2, the one with the spear is probably slightly better, but not by much for sure.

Then what would you do cause frankly I'm out of ideas?

Focus on buffing the party to end combat more quickly, and buy a stash of (arcane) wands of cure light wounds for post combat healing.

But I'd still play the longspear guy to help threaten in combat. You're never going to the warrior a full BAB character is, but you can help with positioning.

Reactionary healing is rarely useful, unless a party member is about to go unconscious.

Basically every party I've played in did healing as something in between combat, not during. So spending a lot of resources trying to make in combat healing work just never made sense to us. Preventing damage (including by killing your enemy first) was always much more effective PC action to enemy action. At least until you get the Heal spell (which bards don't get).

I'll be honest with you dude, that is so painfully generic that I'd frankly rather play something else. Like ok the whole thing with unicorns is they have a focus on purification and stuff I.E healing, the reason the longspear one is so healing focused isn't for my party but for me to make me into something of a pseudo tank along with the masterpiece Endless Waltz of the Eldest played in tandum with the spell song if kyonin. If you're telling me that just wouldn't be worth running then I got no choice but to label this a failure.

Silver Crusade

TxSam88 wrote:

I'll be frank, and please do not be offended, I wouldn't want either of these in my party. As a combat character they are both pretty weak, and as a healer, they are both giving up too much healing to fuel their weak combat stuff.

As a bard their BAB isn't good enough to count on getting hits, and you aren't doing anything to increase that chance to hit (and you are losing chances to hit with power attack). So while having plenty of AOOs would be cool for the extra damage from Channel Force, it's just not going to give as much bonus damage as it seems.

if I were forced to choose between these 2, the one with the spear is probably slightly better, but not by much for sure.

Then what would you do cause frankly I'm out of ideas?

Silver Crusade

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Build 1 does not work, because extra dice are not multiplied on a critical hit. Therefore the damage from channeling force is not multiplied on critical hit.

Build 2 also has some issues. Fey Foundling only works on yourself, so it is not going to be of much use to the rest of the party. You seem to be focusing on channeling energy, but don’t have selective channel so will be healing your enemies if you channel in combat. Even if you do take selective channel, using channel energy is going to make it so you can’t do anything else in the round. In combat healing is almost never worth it, but this build is not showing anything else it does. You are using a long spear as your chosen weapon, but don’t seem to have any feats to improve its use. It is not a finessible weapon so are you focusing on STR or DEX as your combat stat? The bard is only proficient with light armor, so focusing on STR may lead to a lower AC and you getting hit. You are also taking power attack on a medium BAB class with no attack boosters.

It seems you need to come up with a build 3. Play a half elf and use Ancestral Arms to gain proficiency with the elven branch spear. Take Weapon finesse as your first level feat, this means you can focus on DEX as your primary combat stat. Take Combat Reflexes as your 3rd level feat. This will allow you to get in more AoO with the spear. This combination will give you more attacks and a better chance to hit. For your 5th level feat take selective channel so you can heal the party without healing the enemy. After this take extra channel and/or lingering performance. Depending on how high your DEX is you may also want to consider taking medium armor proficiency. Your spells are considered divine so don’t have to worry about spell failure, but you cannot use metal armor. A dragonhide or ironwood breastplate would work fairly well if your DEX is 16.

You read channeling force wrong. The feat gives you a +1 to damage for every 1d6 of channeling energy you can do, it doesn't convert the channel energy into force damage, that would actually be kind of ridiculous.

See for yourself "A swift action, you can expend one use of channel energy to grant your weapon attacks a bonus on damage rolls equal to the number of dice of your channel energy. This extra damage is force damage. This lasts for your next three weapon attacks or until the end of combat, whichever comes first."

Silver Crusade

DeathlessOne wrote:
I'd opt for the Longspear build. I've personally built something similar though with Skald (Sunsinger) and made use of Combat Reflexes to turn it into an AoO striker so that I don't have to waste my turn on making attacks, but using other things (assist others, spellcasting, etc). I also threw the option for variant multiclass Paladin in there so that I get some Lay on Hands and Smite Evil, but that might be to restrictive for anyone else on feats. Might not fit your concept.

Well I know that Combat reflexes is like standard issue for reach weapons but I wanted to gauge what my other options were since I already made like 2-3 combat reflexes builds

Silver Crusade

Once again im torn between 2 ideas and once again I am forced to split them into 2 builds.

The general idea is that the bard gained their powered by making a pact with a unicorn, this grants them advanced healing powers and abilities as well as limited precognition.

Arcane Healer/Filidh Bard

Traits:Reactionary
Indominable Faith

1.Weapon Finesse
3.Power Attack
5.Channeling Force
7.Extra Channel
9.Lingering Performance
11.Improved Critical(Rapier)
13.Divine Interference

Weapon of Choice: Rapier

or

1.Fey Foundling
3.Power Attack
5.Channeling Force
7.Extra Channel
9.Lingering Performance
11.Extra Channel
13.Divine Interference

Weapon of Choice:Longspear

Spells to Remember
Reinvigorating Wind:Level 2
Accept Affliction:Level 3
Purging Finale:Level 3
Song of Kyonin:Level 4

Phylactery of Positive Channeling
Strand of Prayer Beads

The first build uses a rapier hoping to maximize the extra damage gained from channeling force by trying to get as many crits as possible.

The other one is decisively more tanking aiming to abuse the healing focus the build is going for.

Between these 2 which would, you rather have in your party and how would you improve both.

Silver Crusade

Kasoh wrote:

A gundam, usually.

Otherwise, I kind of like the idea of a spiked shield. Unicorns are known to protect maidens, so something defensive with a pokey bit feels interesting to me.

Thats actually not a bad idea

Silver Crusade

VoodistMonk wrote:

A dagger.

Particularly the Necromamcer's Athame... just obviously using Unicorn horn instead of a thighbone.

Necromancer’s Athame
Aura strong necromancy; CL 11th; Slot none; Price 20,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.

DESCRIPTION

This pallid length of sharpened thighbone is carved into the shape of a dagger, but with tiny holes bored into it at equal intervals, almost like a flute. A necromancer who selects the athame as his bonded object can use it to spontaneously convert any prepared wizard necromancy spell into any other wizard necromancy spell he knows; the desired spell must be of the same level or lower than the prepared spell.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Feats Craft Wondrous Item, create undead; Special creator must be a necromancer; Cost 10,000 gp

Interesting idea but, considering its a unicorn necromancy kinda goes the opposite direction of what I wanna go for.

Silver Crusade

I'm trying to think of a build for a unicorn based bard and I keep flip-flopping between the longspear and the rapier not entirely sure which one would be the better option.

Silver Crusade

im kinda leaning towards fortune teller, but second opinions would be nice

Silver Crusade

For context, the idea behind this build is to make a purely mount-based unchanged summoner. Using either agathion, Elemental or Daemon as a base(so there are various alignment options.)

Agathion, Elemental or Daemon Eidolon:Dragon

1.Eidolon Mount
2.Power Attack
3.Combat Reflexes
4.Eldritch Claws
5.Lunge

Evolutions:
6:Breath Weapon
3.Pounce
2:Flight
1.Claw
1.Wing Buffet

1.Mounted Combat
3.Strong Comeback
5.Extra Evolution
7.Power Attack
9.Extra Evolution
11.Trick Riding
13.Extra Evolution

I feel like I could do better but my mind is drawing a blank, any ideas?

Silver Crusade

Minigiant wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Minigiant wrote:

I cannot be the only one not following the leap from Inquisitor to E.Scoundrel vs Magus, what do they have to do with one another?

Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
the only thing I know for sure is that preacher inquisitor is the base

What about the Preacher do you want? Because from experience you will be significantly disappointed from it.

Simply put, I hate teamwork feats.
But Solo Tactics means you can always use them, and not reliant on teammates taking them. You are planning on Summoning, you can use the Hound Archon to trigger your solo tactics

Oooh that is a good point...

Silver Crusade

Minigiant wrote:

I cannot be the only one not following the leap from Inquisitor to E.Scoundrel vs Magus, what do they have to do with one another?

Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
the only thing I know for sure is that preacher inquisitor is the base

What about the Preacher do you want? Because from experience you will be significantly disappointed from it.

Simply put, I hate teamwork feats.

Silver Crusade

meyerwilliam wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
Minigiant, I think you completely missed the purpose and intent of their build… they are making a self-taught novice divine Spellcaster… it’s not so much a min-max power build as it is a viable thematic build. Summoning is only one facet of the build, and like the rest of the build is deliberately intended to not be “the best”. I can tell you from experience, sometimes the most enjoyable builds are the ones that don’t actually excell at anything. Builds that struggle every step of the way can be very enjoyable, especially when you are used to steamrolling everything and want a change of pace.
You pretty much got the exact idea. Like I got an eldritch scoundrel rouge build that I really like that has high utility, but I know a well-made magus will likely run circles around it, that was never the point.

What does it mean that you are an eldritch scoundrel rogue build that has high utility, but a well-mage magus will likely run circles around it?

If you are saying that in (virtually) all cases, the mage is better than you (disabling devices, damage, skills, etc.) -- I have to ask, why are you playing a scoundrel instead of a magus?

If you are saying that your two toons are similar, with minor bonuses to one or the other ... that's fair ... like, an unchained rogue should be able to deal tons of debuffs to the enemy, but the magus should have more oomph in his attacks/spells. (spell strike with shocking grasp is usually more than a sneak attack) -- it's a wash.

In my opinion ... if you have two choices, one of which is superior in (almost) all cases ... why wouldn't you chose that one every time?

I'm not saying "Is a prepared spellcaster with foreknowledge better than a fighter" ... I am saying "If I am going to be a healer, why play a warpriest when I could play a life oracle" -- and "If I am going to be playing an off healer which mostly attacks in combat, then a life oracle is (usually) the wrong choice"

Well in the case of the E.S Rogue vs the magus, the idea is while both of them are competent in their own right. The rogue has much higher utility and problem-solving capabilities due to having both access to the Rogues skill set and wizard spellcasting, while the magus has more raw power and combat capability.

I don't think anybody can say between these 2 characters in a head on fight the magus would win, the Rogue would have to get really clever.

And that's kinda what I want for this. With high utility and acceptable competency in combat but can't really hold a candle to a warpriest and so would largely be relegated to support in bigger fights.

I will concede this build is kind of all over the place, but I honestly don't know where to take it, the only thing I know for sure is that preacher inquisitor is the base I wanna go with, but and I know this is gonna sound crazy but I kinda wanna get rid of bane as I feel its a bit too strong for what I'm going for.

Silver Crusade

Chell Raighn wrote:
Minigiant, I think you completely missed the purpose and intent of their build… they are making a self-taught novice divine Spellcaster… it’s not so much a min-max power build as it is a viable thematic build. Summoning is only one facet of the build, and like the rest of the build is deliberately intended to not be “the best”. I can tell you from experience, sometimes the most enjoyable builds are the ones that don’t actually excell at anything. Builds that struggle every step of the way can be very enjoyable, especially when you are used to steamrolling everything and want a change of pace.

You pretty much got the exact idea. Like I got an eldritch scoundrel rouge build that I really like that has high utility, but I know a well-made magus will likely run circles around it, that was never the point.

Silver Crusade

Long story short I wanted to build a character in the vein of the acolyte class in Ragnarok online, one that casts divine magic-using various symbols of their god as crutches of conduits as they never got proper training, but when pushed has shown to be able to do a few tricks unique to them.

This build is a Preacher/Relic Hunter Inquisitor and a good example of a trick is being able to use servitor to summon a hound archon and then just litany of righteousness to double all its damage. making it a viable combat buddy. Here's the build and for those who are asking why I didn't go for transmutation asap, I wanted to go a more support route.

Relic Hunter/Preacher(Neophyte:Play like a Cleric/Occultist)

Traits:Fate's Favored

Arodenite Sword Training

Relics(Implements)

1.Conjuration and Enchantment

4.Abjuration

7.Evocation

10.Transmutation

Resonant Powers:

Casting Focus

Glorious Presence

Warding Talisman

Intense Focus

Physical Enhancement

Base Focus Powers

Servitor:Summon Monster, but one at a time

Cloud Mind

Mind Shield

Energy Ray

Legacy Weapon

------------------------------------

Focus Powers

1.Mind Steed

4.Mend Flesh

8.Resistence Mastery

12.Ability Mastery

1.Spell Focus (Conjuration)

3.Power Attack

5.Augment Summoning

7.Implement Mastery

9.Extra Mental Focus

11.Summon Good Monster

13.Divine Interference

Silver Crusade

Melkiador wrote:

A blacksmith hammer as a percussion instrument....

I'd probably go skald, since they are more associated with weapons and armor that a blacksmith would make.

But the flame dancer bard can get fire resist 20. There are other ways to get fire resist, but it might tempt you.

Well after i did my research it does kind of boil down to either spell warrior skald or Flamesinger/Flame Dancer Bard

Silver Crusade

Context: Basically, i wanna make a character with a sort of desert asthetic, has the ability to manipulate heat not neccesarily fire allowing them to have a high tolerance to intense head allowing them to make weapons while literally inside the furnace making it higher quality than most

basically, they would be closer to weapons specialists

with fire being kind of a side thing and yes im dead set on it being a bard or some something performance related as they would double as fire dancers.

Silver Crusade

Kurald Galain wrote:

Summon Monster builds are frowned upon in PFS because of how much playtime they tend to take up. Archetypes that let you field more than two creatures at the same time tend to be banned for this reason, e.g. Packmaster hunter or Pack Lord druid.

I guess i dont see it because i generally have a personal rule where i only summon one creature at a time, unless its like Lantern Archons or Air Elementals where the entire point is to swarm the battlefield with a whole bunch of em.

Silver Crusade

I know people will move on to PF2 so this likely doesn't matter anymore, but i'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind it.

Silver Crusade

Arkham Joker wrote:

Herald Caller is IMO better than Evangelist for overall summoning as well as general play.

1) It has built in to the class more features geared towards summoning. You certainly don't need to invest money into items and actually even if you didn't invest any additional feats you would still be decent. Evangelist needs to invest feats and money into specific items.

2) If you do chose to invest feats then you will become overall a better summoner quicker. Alternatively you have spare capacity as a HC for something like Animal domain + boon companion feat. Evangelist doesn't have this built in spare capacity.

3) You communicate automatically and perfectly over any distance with any summons. You don't need any specific languages. The Evangelist cannot do this.

4) Using your special Channelling ability, you can selectively heal over any distance any of your summons. This boosts durability. The Evangelist cannot do this.

And just in general....a Herald Caller gains 4 skill points/level and doesn't lose any Channelling dice or Spont Heals.

Now going back to the original question

Overall, its fairly even although I think the Summoner does win it due to getting standard action summons automatically at 1st level. The minutes/level summons help too at Lv 1-5.

Overall the HC is going to be the more effective character due to being a 9th level prepared caster.

As well you could have an Animal domain HC to put more bodies on the battlefield. If I remember correctly, the Summoner cannot have his Eidolon and summons in play at the same time?

They can't so when making a summoner you have to choose which one you're gonna focus on.

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Something ive been pondering for a while, which is the better summoner? The actual summoner class (Ignoring eidolon's obviously) or the Herald caller, by simple virtue of being a 9th level caster.

In terms of pure summoning ability, it's hard to tell, because while the summoners summons last longer, the herald caller has stuff they can fall back on when summons don't work.

So...which is it?

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Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:

Basically, I was looking at this and thought it would be pretty good but since it only has one familiar feat that means i can only either keep flyby attack which would cause it to lose out on damage or trade it out for power attack which would make it lose a lot in mobility. Is there any way around this?

If not, which one would you sacrifice?

It would need a 13str for power attack. It has a 6.

You can't trade racial bonus feats. Which fly by attack is in this case
The Mauler Boosts the size of the dragonfly from tiny to medium and they get the size bonuses that come with it. taking the size changes into account combining it with the inherent strength bonuses the archtype gets at level 3 you get just enough of a strength modifier to qualify for power attack.

In order to trade this out for Power Attack at L3 the familiar would have to complete retraining a feat and you'll be spending GP as well. The GM will have to ok this action. If you choose this option though, consider that your Mauler familiar will have half your HP and your BAB and never get any new feats to supplement its combat ability.

Ways to give familiars new feats: 1. 2 levels in Eldritch Guardian Fighter to share all combat feats, give the familiar the Valet archetype so it shares all Teamwork feats with the PC, or be a Beast Bonded witch and give the familiar your feats instead of taking them yourself.

What kind of a build are you thinking about?

At the moment it's mostly with the idea of either tumor familiars or

a Jinyiwei/Bonded Investigator. Essentially to act as my means of physically attacking meant to never leave my side while the PC devotes all their resources into their casting stat dividing up the strain. I thought of trying the same with the bard duettist, but i realized how bad the spell list is for familiar support.

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Name Violation wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:

Basically, I was looking at this and thought it would be pretty good but since it only has one familiar feat that means i can only either keep flyby attack which would cause it to lose out on damage or trade it out for power attack which would make it lose a lot in mobility. Is there any way around this?

If not, which one would you sacrifice?

It would need a 13str for power attack. It has a 6.

You can't trade racial bonus feats. Which fly by attack is in this case

The Mauler Boosts the size of the dragonfly from tiny to medium and they get the size bonuses that come with it. taking the size changes into account combining it with the inherent strength bonuses the archtype gets at level 3 you get just enough of a strength modifier to qualify for power attack.

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zza ni wrote:

i know of only 3 ways to give familiars feats, but how do you trade their starting racial feats? (or is it specifically gm allowed). also it's str is way lower then power attack ask for - unless you go with the mauler archtype)

ether way. i wouldn't send my familiar to attack without some really good backup buffing to both defense and offense (it deal 1d2-2 normally).

as a tiny creature it will provoke for moving into the target's space to attack.
and maybe also for moving away from the space right before that, not sure if these two count as 2 different reasons to provoke an aoo. one for leaving threatened space. one for entering a creature's space. (and again, unless you go with the mauler archtye).

Its stated that you can trade any familiar feat for one they qualify for of your own volition no gm permission needed

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Basically, I was looking at this and thought it would be pretty good but since it only has one familiar feat that means i can only either keep flyby attack which would cause it to lose out on damage or trade it out for power attack which would make it lose a lot in mobility. Is there any way around this?

If not, which one would you sacrifice?

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Im kinda glancing at thundercaller right now, but i kinda want a second opinion

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Between the alchemist and investigstor, what archetype would be best suited for a tribal alchemist who opts to use more natural materials rather then synthetic ones?

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Java Man wrote:
What is Symbolic bolt? A magic item, a class ability, a nursery rhyme? Do you have a link to the rules or do you know where it is from?

https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Symbolic%20Mastery

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Java Man wrote:
Reference?

Not sure i follow

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I'm asking to determine if it works alongside the Conductive enchant, I'm 90% sure it does but I just want to make sure.

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By that i mean do glooms count as bombs for fueling living pigment
and do glooms not count as bombs for purposes of feats like concentrated splash?

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Asking for an idea for a bladebound magus build

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Wonderstell wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Really i don't think there's any other class in the game that falls off as hard as the fighter does after the first few levels. Far as I'm concerned, the child of A&A is a complete lateral move from the base fighter, it wouldn't make it any weaker.

Is this a change of opinion from before you made the threads? Because otherwise that means you had an extremely low opinion of the Paladin.

I don't know how much you value 4th level prepared casting but what the Child of A&A gives up is not equal in value to it. You say that the fighter falls off hard, but the Child of A&A manages to neuter the early levels to such a degree that you don't even fall off. You're already at the bottom and you stay there for the entire 20 levels.

Even without Advanced Weapon Training, the slow burn of 4th level casting never manages to offset to loss of all those bonus feats and the Att/Dmg boost from Weapon Training.
There is no point to start taking levels in the archetype, and there's no point to staying in the archetype.

I actively refuse to play any class that doesn't have access to SOME form of spellcasting, as there's no reason you wouldn't unless you're a barbarian or some sort of anti mage and have an active hatred of spellcasting.

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VoodistMonk wrote:

Pretty sure the Magus class existed before Child of War, so it's not like we didn't have examples of how to handle casting spells in armor. Arcane Duelist Bards were doing it before both Child of War Fighters and Magi, so all evidence points towards Child of War being written by someone who secretly hates Fighters.

Child of War is direct sabotage against the Fighter class. It is literally a trap. Whomever did this to the Fighter deserves to stub their toe every day of their pathetic natural life...

I honestly fail to see the sabotage, since when you boil it down the fighter is just the NPC warrior with some bonus feats and a little extra damage. The fighter was NEVER a good class, and acting like taking away advanced weapon training would make it any less one dimensional and irrelevant is frankly disingenuous.

Really i don't think there's any other class in the game that falls off as hard as the fighter does after the first few levels. Far as I'm concerned, the child of A&A is a complete lateral move from the base fighter, it wouldn't make it any weaker.

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Derklord wrote:
Mudfoot wrote:
I must be missing something about Weapon Training. AWT only kicks in at 9th level and most of the benefits are...OK I guess?

Warrior Spirit. It's a game changer. Grabbing any weapon enchantment is huge (see here for a list), and with the Training enchantment even lets you get temporary training in skills (the AWT feat -> Versatile Training) or pseudo-spellcasting (AWT feat -> Item Mastery AWT option -> (e.g.) Flight Mastery).

Wonderstell wrote:

Archery/Combat Maneuvers?

Bonus feats are really helpful here to get it online earlier. But the Child of A&A only starts getting bonus feats at lv 4 so before that you're no better than the Warrior NPC class. And when you've taken the essential feats, what then? You don't get any accuracy boost so the Pally will just overtake you.
Archery, with its two bonus attacks, also profits even more than other playstyles from the huge damage bonus Smite Evil grants. Plus, CoAaA isn't even proficient with bows.

Uh did bows suddenly count as 2 handed weapons and i didnt notice?

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MrCharisma wrote:
I get that you like the Child of Acavna Fighter (nothing wrong with it), but what's your deal with comparing it to a Paladin?

It's an experiment I'm working on. I'm trying to gauge the power difference between the 2 and see just how wide it truly is.

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

Basically anything is better than the Child of A&A. Fighter archetypes that trade out weapon training (and thus advanced weapon training) are to be avoided like the plague. Since (Advanced) Weapon Training is the best thing the fighter gets.

If you keep weapon training, you can make a more casty "Iron Caster" fighter by abusing the "Advanced Weapon Training" feat acquired through Martial Flexibility (either via a Brawler dip or the Barroom Brawler feat) selecting the Item Mastery AWT option to grab important spells.

I disagree, personally if i cared that much about weapon training, i would just go on the Myrmidarch Magus and get the advanced weapon training feats Giving me all that on top of all the good stuff you get out of magus, Or go on the Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest and do the same thing, making it fairly unimportant.

And if that's the BEST the class has to offer? Then it really says a lot about the strength of the class as a whole, might as well be an NPC class, so giving it up would be like dividing anything but zero, it will still be zero.

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Basically I want to confirm something.

Personally my general belief is that the child of A&A is weaker in terms of raw damage output, but far more versatile in what it can be built as just due to the fact that it has 3 bonus feats.

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