Aubrey's Other Eberron Campaign - The Unbinding (Inactive)

Game Master Aubrey the Malformed

Re: undead, there's a whole nation that worships their ancestors who walk among them as positive-energy-aligned undead. There are also good-aligned or neutral-aligned undead (not as a rule of a species but as stand-outs among their race. In case you haven't read it in the books, for instance, in eberron chromatic dragons aren't always evil and metallic not always good.

I think Tal's patron would be upset at the evil undead, not the good or neutral. So it really depends on what is being raised. ALthough Tal would be unlikely to trust any necromancers or undead, no matter how altruistic they might be.

Also, note that JuJu zombies got errated into being not good (or not positive energy anyway).

I'll try catching up when I get home from work....

Ah yeah i was talking specifically about the Deathless of Aerenal.

@Cole: That sounds like a pretty good idea. I should point out however that since you are looking at legendary item, it does allow access to self buffing, and with mythic tier 2 amazing intiative you don't need to sacrifice full attacks for it. Of coarse this makes healing issue even worse, but there are solutions to that via magic items. Provided we get to a city of some sorts. All in all I say it is good, just few things to consider.

@Tal: Wultram is pretty much "Your god, not mine, you follow their rules" philosphy. As long as someone doesn't give him grief about it he is fine. OOC I am perfectly fine with some squabbling as long as it remains as that. With the character it really depends on the tone you approach, with the right one he might even welcome a discussion, not that he would ever change his mind. With the wrong one, well he is young rather angry man.

Most likely what Tal is likely to do is hold Wultram responsible for any actions his skeleton causes. Thus, if it goes out of his control because he's knocked unconscious and begins to attack the nearest living thing, he'll hold Wultram responsible. If Wultram is raising non-necromantic undead.. that's probably a different story. But by default, if he loses control of them, they go nuts and attack the nearest living thing.

Good reason to keep him alive isn't it? :P

The control doesn't stop with unconciousness, granted if they do not have standing orders or something unexpected happens during that... Oh and the skeleton that currently exists is intelligent one so it is a bit different story anyways.

But yes I doubt Wultram would have any issue with that, as that is pretty close how he sees it himself.

Cool. Let me know. :)

EDIT: And HP for level up
1d12

OK, I've looked at the PF version of the Warforged Juggernaut PrC. It looks OK, the only caveat is that it makes use of a homebrew feat from that website called Improved Resiliency which might impact on your plans for self-healing. I advise you check out that feat and see if it will cause you problems.

Yah ... I hadn't planned on giving up quite that much of his "humanity", despite some of the nice bennies of that PrC. (Not to mention some steeper prereqs for entry that I have nearly none of at this time). I'll just plan on sticking with Barbarian. :)

Thanks for looking into it, though, Aubrey.

Sheet updated, earlier message was almost correct. Forgot to spend 1 skill point(upped UMD). Also I messed up the name of the mythic ability it is necromantic mastery not might.

Also forgot to roll HP for Skellie so.

HP: 1d10 ⇒ 7

Just to let you know that from this Friday evening I will on holiday for a week. I will be in the Scottish Highlands (though the bit nearest to Glasgow) and therefore unlikely to be able to post in this time.

No way! I've got a holiday synced with Aubrey. I'll in Nova Scotia, slightly south of a little chunk of the Highlands called Cape Breton. Also gone about a week with web access unlikely.

On second thought, given all Aubrey's vacation the odds are probably better than even that we'd sync up some day.

OK, that's me until next week.

new level hit-die: 1d10 ⇒ 4
I forget, are we playing with a rule that we get a minimum of half-max or something?

In any event, Vaard is fully leveled up and tiered up. I ended up going with Extra Mythic Power for my first mythic feat.

Also, Aubrey:
According to both lead developers of PoW, the warlord's "Unbreakable Gambit" has a typo that makes it do something very different from what they wanted it to do. If I take Unbreakable Gambit, should I use the text in PoW and on d20pfsrd, or the text Chris Bennett (ErrantX) posted in the above link?

6th level HP roll (ranger) : 1d10 ⇒ 6

Ranger for 6th level. Favored terrain jungle.
Skills -- know nature, stealth, perception, sense motive, UMD, acrobatics.

Also, Aubrey:

According to both lead developers of PoW, the warlord's "Unbreakable Gambit" has a typo that makes it do something very different from what they wanted it to do. If I take Unbreakable Gambit, should I use the text in PoW and on d20pfsrd, or the text Chris Bennett (ErrantX) posted in the above link?

Go with the errata.

mdt, I didn't mean to cut Tal out of the conversation totally.

Aubrey, can we assume that Poomba translates for him?

I'll translate if i get the idea he doesn't know what is going on.

That said, if someone makes a PC that doesn't know Common, I imagine they wanted to be kinda "out of the loop" sometimes.

We'll have to teach him Common! buy some books in the city! haha

Pretty bad when I am excited about an imaginary shopping trip

It makes sense for the character to be 'out of the loop' at the moment. He has a free language slot to pick up common once the group begins to travel. It's just that currently, it makes no sense for him to speak a language that didn't exist when he was alive.

Now Tal just needs another bow so he can be a one person fusilade ballista. :) MWF covers using two bows (although the penalties on the off hand are harsh).

Tenro, HP is roll with a minimum of 1/2 the max roll.

thanks

HP, half minimum: 1d8 ⇒ 7

Aubrey, so now that we've hit Mythic, Cole's rage power Renewed Vigor is a wasted choice. I can't think of a time when I'd use it effectively or efficiently. I likely should have seen this coming, but thought it would be more helpful. At the same time, I think I've used it once (maybe twice) since selecting it.

Are you okay with some way of switching that out? Or using the Retraining rules to have Cole swap it out for something that's more useful and on-theme?

I'd like to replace it with something that plays well with Superstition, so Witch Hunter or something similar.

Let me know your thoughts. If you're open to using the Retraining rules, is there someone who will be traveling with us who could fill the role of the necessary trainer? A level 6 Barbarian is necessary, as is 5 days of work of them working together (while they travel?), and 300g. If any/allfo that is kosher, could Cole use some of the gear-value of our choices to equal that 300g? Like say the mwk shield + mwk armor?

I don't see a problem with you just changing it.

That's cause you're awesome. Thanks, Aubrey. Making changes now.

...

NEWS COMING IN: EVERYONE GETS ANOTHER 1,600XP. It's not everyday you get to speak to a mysterious primal force in the universe, and so you get come xp for that. So everyone should now be at the very beginning of 6th level. And before you thank me, consider why I might be anxious for you to be a level higher ....

... or have nice things.

Aubrey's not being awesome. It's a ploy to get our hopes up before he crushes like the insignificantly evolved slime molds that we are.

Lol. Fair enough. But at least I get to die with a cooler class ability. :D

Who said anything about die? I thought we were going to be the stuff of legends not the stuff that feeds worms!

On a completely eelated note, it says a lot of a DM allowing a player some "retraining" so they are happier with their characters.

Kudos to Aubrey

Indeed, I am awesome.

And on that note, Rehil has grown attached to his curve blade. Can I just upgrade that to masterwork? We can flavor it as Rehil finally figuring out how to get the most out of it.

That would make Rehil's haul:

- 1 masterwork weapon (Curve Blade upgrade)
- 10 +1 arrows
- 1 masterwork chain shirt
- 0 masterwork large steel shields
- 1 potion of Cure Serious Wounds and 1 oil of Repair Serious Damage
- 2 oils of Magic Weapon

Yes, also fine. I didn't realise it wasn't masterwork.

THANKS, Aubrey!

Ooo, Eben, I just realized Cole'll be rocking an iterative attack now.

WHOMP WHOMP SLAM!

Hi all, I'm doing a sponsored walk round 13 of the bridges over the River Thames in London on the 9th of October. If you would like to sponsor me, the link is here. Many thanks for your generosity (and may worms coil in the privy parts of those who fail to sponsor me).

The jokes on you; I'm fairly certain worms already coil in my privy parts.

On a more serious note, good on you for the walk. I actually work as a part of the creative team of a company that supports fundraisers and non-profits, and one of our clients is JDRF, a US company that raises money and awareness to fund Type 1 diabetes research, treatment, and patient care. I don't know if your walk is supporting Type 1 or 2, but either way, it's a good thing you're a part of.

It's diabetes in general.

So how much exactly would I have to donate say for staff of magi? Joking aside good for you doing charity.

Now regarding the undead I have a few questions.
-Simple one first, what sort of bones can Wultram find? I would assume getting a complete skeleton would not be the case for majority of the remains. He is also looking for animal bones not humanoids. He will if needed ask the locals to help with identifying things.
- The more important matter is how would you like to handle them once initiative rolls around? Just normally, as a group or to keep things moving everything going on Wultrams initiative? Just thinking that due to the time zone things, it could really bog the game down.

My real-life memory is failing me, so I'm wondering:
last time we saw Bokehn, didn't he "die"?

Injured and deathly ill. That's why we left him behind at Poomba's.

So how much exactly would I have to donate say for staff of magi? Joking aside good for you doing charity.

Now regarding the undead I have a few questions.
-Simple one first, what sort of bones can Wultram find? I would assume getting a complete skeleton would not be the case for majority of the remains. He is also looking for animal bones not humanoids. He will if needed ask the locals to help with identifying things.
- The more important matter is how would you like to handle them once initiative rolls around? Just normally, as a group or to keep things moving everything going on Wultrams initiative? Just thinking that due to the time zone things, it could really bog the game down.

Well, you won't find complete skeletons, they will be chopped up and split open for marrow and so on.

To be honest, having a bunch of low-level undead wandering around in your wake is probably a lot more trouble than it is worth. They will be practically useless in combat against higher level foes of the type you will be coming up against. And while people are maybe willing to accept a Karrnathi skeleton wandering around as your bodyguard, having an undead army hanging about will cause you problems of the peasants-with-pitchforks variety. Not to mention that it will cause problems with Tal (who you will be relying on for healing). Saying (as you might) that your character wouldn't care about Tal's sensibilities is all well and good but doesn't really help much from a game cohesion perspective. And I imagine that Wultram is aware that a lot of people have problems with undead, even in Eberron, and that this could draw unwelcome attention from potential enemies and alienate potential allies.

So, to be blunt, I wouldn't bother. I know your character has these abilities but, in the end, the class comes out of Heroes of Horror and this is not a horror game. Plus, some classes and PrC's are typically what I call NPC/villain classes - i.e. they work a lot better against the party rather than with them - and True Necromancer is definitely on the border of that. Personally, I would see your abilities to create and control undead as more of a special occasion thing - raising the odd powerful ally, not to have a mass of permanent hangers-on.

Good things to get away with animating are things like the monstrous scorpions and spiders. Since they have exoskeletons, they only seem to be an odd color to the normal person unfamiliar with specific varieties of insects/arachnids. One of my favorite things I did with my Eberron Dread Necromancer was animate a Huge Monstrous Scorpion Skeleton, then we salvaged a carriage, took the wheels off and affixed it to the back of the scorpion skeleton. Ride in style! With points in bluff and disguise, I got away with a lot of chicanery.

This will be a wall of text so I will number things out for ease of communication.

1) Well it was more to see if there was enough bones to gather up skeletons. Also to see if what options there was if any. Good bodies are valuable, and this jungle seemed to have a decent amount of rather nasty critters.
2) The latter part of 1) Kinda explains that low level isn't what was looked at. Well I suppose everything is kinda low since we are at 6 ourselves but point is that compared to us.
3) One does not need to have said 'army' always with you.
4) At the moment there isn't any knowledge character or player wise were we are going. Also gathering the bodies now is not really an issue with the pitch fork and torches mentality.
5) While I am as previously seen quite acomadating about party cohesion making sure OOC that it works out. There are other sources of healing especially once we get to places that might have that mob mentality. And yes while Wultram has practically no reason to care right now about a strangers opinion, that does not mean I do not care about it.
6) Also I don't think it is quite fair to use Tal as argument in this fashion when it comes to Wultram. Tals recruitmen was handled by you, while wultrams views having been established since 2013, it should not be excatly a surprise what he does. To clarify I have zero problem with the character, I am just saying that it is not excatly a good argument.
7) Potential allies might be an issue, but I have hard time seeing Wultram really caring about someone who comes his enemy just cause of undead. Though I suppose it depends on what is the defination of enemy here, was commenting as in a physical threath.
8) So let me get this straight, you accepted a character in recruitment whose whole class basicly is dedicated to controlling undead minions and then it is 3 years later a problem? Now I ain't expecting it to be end all be all and always easy but how it reads is like saying to a barbarian player that angry people do not really fit in.
9) Books name is a non argument. It has nothing to do with it. Unless somehow using any undead creating spell automaticly makes it horror themed.
10) True some classes work better as npcs. And necromancers are on the line, though I would say not so much in eberron.
11) You do realize that the only advantage of undead minions are their permanency. You allready have them when s*%~ hits the fan. Otherwise you would just use summons wich are vastly more useful when used in such a fashion. Granted I never intended to create what would be called an army, well at least outside of corner cases that might come up. But use a small number of powerful(in comparison) undead.

The issue is probably more that I know what is coming next and you don't. I think you will appreciate that as things go along.

But...

It is naive (of your character) to assume that everyone thinks necromancy is OK. You are among a bunch of lizardmen led by a druid who worship nature. They really won't approve. As your undead companion is a class feature I'm willing to let it roll, but in 'reality' if I was playing the disadvantages of this they would be complaining most vociferously (probably with sharp pointy things). In-game they owe you, so it can be justified, but only just. What goes in Karrnath doesn't necessarily go anywhere else. It might go in some of the more sophisticated parts of Khorvaire, but not all of them, and you aren't there.

In the end, as a DM, I don't want to have to deal with this sort of eventuality, because it is an annoying distraction. Turning up in every town and having to run some sort of encounter "because Wultram doesn't care what other people think" is work for me that I don't really want. The rest of the characters (and you too, now) will need someone who can channel positive energy so they can receive healing, and pretty much all of them will also be unhappy with a necromancer who creates undead as a hobby - Tal is not being especially unreasonable. And the necromancers who don't care what other people think are normally the ones who end up being hunted down by Silver Flame hit squads, among others. I have also seen players roleplay themselves out of a game like this a couple of times by refusing to consider what the actual ramifications of their character's actions might be - because, hey, they don't care what other people think - and frankly it's a wasted opportunity for everyone. Compromise oils the wheels of a collaborative game like this.

From a mechanical perspective, raising a load of low-level undead won't be much use to you either. They will be pretty much useless to you against mythic foes. They will make stealth and subtlety very difficult. And, as you point out, they will be fiddly in combat.

So I suggest you reconsider. Animate Dead is one spell. You have lots of other ones.

I would suggest, at the very least, a discussion with Tal about this in-game. And he might also need to compromise as well.

In the end, I appreciate you want to use your class features. If you want this to work, though, you can't just blunder on and expect everyone in-game to 'get' it. This will require some roleplaying and thought about how to minimise the potential problems it raises.

I'm not trying to cause waves, and I can withdraw if need be.

The game system itself, both the core rules and the setting, indicate that undead are, at best, problematic outside of very specific areas, and all Good healers are, by the core rules and setting, very much against undead. Tal is not Silver Flame, so there's room for him to take a 'I will hold you responsible for your actions, and the actions of your minions', primarily because his goddess is not explicitly anti-undead. If he were from the base setting, and therefore silver flame, there would be no ability to compromise. I actually did consider this when making the character. Short of playing a necromancer with a bunch of feats to be able to channel positive energy and expending a bunch of resources to cast healing counter to class abilities, there's not a lot of good healers who are willing to work with undead in the setting. :(

This is not another player trying to disrupt the game, nor is it another player trying to tell you how to play your character. This is inherent in the system and the setting.

Nobody needs to withdraw, this can be addressed in-game through roleplaying. But it is potentially problematic and that needs to be understood.

But, it has to be said, it's also given me some potentially fun ideas...

Pull it together guys! The last thing Aubrey needs is more ideas.

Pull it together guys! The last thing Aubrey needs is more ideas.

Can we just let Wultram animate Aubrey's ideas?

@Tal: Like I said I have zero problems with the character. I was noting that the argument used did not hold water. I most certainly do not want withdrawal.

@Aubrey: Wultram does not assume everyone thinks it is ok. He just does not care about their opinion on the matter. He does care about what consequences such opinions might cause. And I am aware of limitations of using such minions, and am willing to work within those constraints. All I was trying to do in this spesific instance was to see if there was a body or a few I could have saved up.

As noted I have no intention raising low HD undead, at least as a plan, could see it perhaps happening in combat if lot of cannon fonder was in combat and proper undead were destroyed. Even if it were useful to use such things I do not really have inclination to manage dozens of creatures. That being said just having some HP sponges on the field that provide flanking does have it's use.

And while animate dead is just one spell. It is also just as much if more so a key spell as fireball is to the usual blaster build. Several class features are tied to it, as are feats. While I fully expect to have to work around all the issues it has, it is a key part and will be used.

And I certainly expect a talk to happen with Tal, and am waiting for it since it is quite nice RP opportunity.

I think we are both making assumptions on things not said or done. But to make it clear I do not have the intention of having a posse of undead follow Wultram everywhere he goes. If the situation warrants it he will leave them somewhere to get later, or under more extreme situations get rid of them permanently to rebuild later when time comes. At the moment we have been resource deprived for him to really make any preparations to address the possible issues.