Any news?
When that ☄ drops, we'll all find out together.
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Physical copies are starting to arive and Ashanderai has posted a quick first look on the product page, mostly focused on the low level stuff.
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Awesome!
[...]
The alchemical bomb feat on gunslinger was also updated to 4+half level of advanced alchemy of at level bombs or ammunition.
[...]
Wait, what?
...
What the f$#&...
Alchemists lost any ability that links -number- of items to level. Meanwhile, Gunslinger both got an upgrade to max-heighten their bombs or alch ammo, while keeping the total # boosted by level.
For comparison, if you take the Alch Archetype & then the Advanced Alchemy feat for daily items, you get 4 dailies total.
Gunslingers for 1 feat, gains 4 + 1/2 level of a limited subset.
That is so good by comparison, that I think an Alchemist feat for "gain 1/2 your level extra daily items of ___ subcategory" would be taken on many Alchemists.
.
I mean, it's great that Gunslinger got a genuinely good feat out of the remaster like that, but holy hell, why does Paizo appear to hate/fear Alchemists so much.
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If Precious Munitions shares the same pool still, then it's arguably worse now than it was before though. At high level before you could get huge amounts of ammo out of it, and the -3 to the max level of what you could make just didn't matter a ton most of the time.
This is a much, much smaller pool, which makes precious munitions far more expensive unless that was also changed.
One thing I am curious about is the follow-up feat, Munitions Machinist. I'd been able to work out what Munitions crafter did to the satisfaction of my GMs and I, but Munitions Machinist doesn't really do anything right now. I've been wondering if it would become a quick alchemy feat. Although Quick Alchemy doesn't work well with alchemical ammunition (create ammunition, load ammunition, activate ammunition, opps, the bullet expired before you shot it)
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[...]
The alchemical bomb feat on gunslinger was also updated to 4+half level of advanced alchemy of at level bombs or ammunition.
[...]
Wait, what?
...
What the f~#!...
Alchemists lost any ability that links -number- of items to level. Meanwhile, Gunslinger both got an upgrade to max-heighten their bombs or alch ammo, while keeping the total # boosted by level.
For comparison, if you take the Alch Archetype & then the Advanced Alchemy feat for daily items, you get 4 dailies total.
Gunslingers for 1 feat, gains 4 + 1/2 level of a limited subset.
That is so good by comparison, that I think an Alchemist feat for "gain 1/2 your level extra daily items of ___ subcategory" would be taken on many Alchemists..
I mean, it's great that Gunslinger got a genuinely good feat out of the remaster like that, but holy hell, why does Paizo appear to hate/fear Alchemists so much.
Yet it still has its limitations. The new Munitions Crafter uses Advanced Alchemy and not Quick Alchemy and is restricted to only bombs and alchemical ammo. So you are limited to choose only during you daily preps not on the fly like Quick Alchemy does. So in comparison to Alchemist MC you can make up to 14 but you have way less versatility.
It's not a new thing to have in class feats/features being stronger than archetype feats. Similar thing happen to thaumaturge's temp scrolls that are trinkets too allowing their usage while holding implements and doesn't requires a extra feat (dedication) like Scroll Trickster needs.
If we consider the fact that we have a very limited set of alchemical ammo and that gunslingers doesn't have Quick Bomber feat and its bombs proficiency is smaller than its guns proficiency.
It's still a very useful feat that no more requires another feat tax to keep improving the ammo level. The number of items is smaller (in the legacy version the number of items was way higher, up to 40 at level 20) but now you can make them equal to your level. I'm not sure if this was a buff or not once that we only have 3 alchemical ammos that goes beyond level 17.
IMO was just an OK change to make it in par with new alchemical mechanics.
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My big question is: Does Munitions Crafter have a larger batch size for Level 0 Black Powder rounds?
If not, making 4 pieces of ammo at first, ramping up to 14 at twentieth... it's in an odd place.
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[...]
The alchemical bomb feat on gunslinger was also updated to 4+half level of advanced alchemy of at level bombs or ammunition.
[...]
Wait, what?
...
What the f#$*...
Alchemists lost any ability that links -number- of items to level. Meanwhile, Gunslinger both got an upgrade to max-heighten their bombs or alch ammo, while keeping the total # boosted by level.
For comparison, if you take the Alch Archetype & then the Advanced Alchemy feat for daily items, you get 4 dailies total.
Gunslingers for 1 feat, gains 4 + 1/2 level of a limited subset.
That is so good by comparison, that I think an Alchemist feat for "gain 1/2 your level extra daily items of ___ subcategory" would be taken on many Alchemists..
I mean, it's great that Gunslinger got a genuinely good feat out of the remaster like that, but holy hell, why does Paizo appear to hate/fear Alchemists so much.
And you get zero of the infrastructure around it that alchemists get. No quick alchemy, no regenerating reagents. If it was supposed to be completely in line with a feat alchemists get, it'd be pretty bad. Also paizo don't "hate" alchemists. I'm getting really tired of the idea there's classes they "hate". Attributing malice to design choices is just really silly, even in the case of a class like oracle which got seriously shafted.
And you get zero of the infrastructure around it that alchemists get. No quick alchemy, no regenerating reagents. If it was supposed to be completely in line with a feat alchemists get, it'd be pretty bad. Also paizo don't "hate" alchemists. I'm getting really tired of the idea there's classes they "hate". Attributing malice to design choices is just really silly, even in the case of a class like oracle which got seriously shafted.
Not the subject, sure, but apart from Battle Oracle and maybe Life, oracle all around got a huge buff and are among the most powerful casters now.
They certainly lost some purpose and lore, but mechanically they’re stronger than ever.
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And you get zero of the infrastructure around it that alchemists get. No quick alchemy, no regenerating reagents. If it was supposed to be completely in line with a feat alchemists get, it'd be pretty bad. Also paizo don't "hate" alchemists. I'm getting really tired of the idea there's classes they "hate". Attributing malice to design choices is just really silly, even in the case of a class like oracle which got seriously shafted.
Not the subject, sure, but apart from Battle Oracle and maybe Life, oracle all around got a huge buff and are among the most powerful casters now.
They certainly lost some purpose and lore, but mechanically they’re stronger than ever.
True. My point was more indicating what's probably the least well-reiceved remaster and saying that even that isn't evident of hatred.
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My big question is: Does Munitions Crafter have a larger batch size for Level 0 Black Powder rounds?
If not, making 4 pieces of ammo at first, ramping up to 14 at twentieth... it's in an odd place.
Yes, the same OP in the original reddit thread clarified that you can make Level 0 Black Powder rounds in batches of 4.
"When crafting alchemical ammunition, including black powder in doses or rounds, using advanced alchemy, you create ammunition in batches of 4 (meaning that if you were 4th level and used all of your advanced alchemy consumables to create alchemical ammunition, you could create a maximum of 24 rounds). You cannot use advanced alchemy to Craft horns or kegs of black powder."
What's interesting to me specifically about Munitions Crafter is how it interacts with other Archetypes (Poisoner/Herbalist/Alchemist) that give you Advanced Alchemy benefits.
Since, RAW, it'd mean you use the highest number of them but can now use them for anything you could do with either feat.
So if you're a Gunslinger with Munitions Crafter and you take Alchemist Dedication, and then take Advanced Alchemy, you can craft 4+Half Level or any kind of Alchemical Consumeable. Which means you cap out at 14, vs an Alchemist's 17, which seems...very weird.
And for those saying Gunslingers don't get Quick Alchemy: they do, that's what Munitions Machinist was changed to, and IIRC it gives you 4 versatile vials for munitions/bombs.
The triggerbrand buff is pretty neat, but it feels odd that there was no similar adjustment for Drifters.
Creates kind of a strange incentive for drifters to use a combination weapon in melee form and never change it for the enhanced accuracy, which doesn't feel great.
On another level I kind of dislike the premise, to be honest. A lot of combination weapons are kind of not very good in a broad sense. It varies from weapon to weapon (some are only slightly worse than their normal counterparts but some feel really degraded) and remaster improvements to action economy have made them even less desirable.
I kind of wish they'd done a balance pass on the weapons themselves instead of just creating a gunslinger specific boost that turns them into class weapons.
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I never thought of Way of the Drift was gonna be shafted by this, why is combination weapons just better then gun and sword? Seriously Paizo you gotta Errata this in the Spring Errata, that seems so weird. So basically what I am hearing is Way of the Drifter is the dead/trap choice of the class? You gotta love when choices are added which aren't balanced to the rest of the class I.E Pre-Remastered Superstitious Instinct Barbarian.
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Ok, this sounds decent. A Munitions Crafter without access to normal firearm supplies can make 16 Black Powder rounds a day from 1st level. That's plenty for a single day... heck, 12 would probably be more than enough. Then options increase with level, allowing the use of Alchemical Ammunition in more circumstances.
I'm ok with that. The Alchemical Ammos are neat; somebody should be using them. Not like Alchemists are going to.
(IMHO, any Alchemist going Ranged should simply focus on Bombs.)
I'm unsure of Munitions Machinist. Adding in Quick Alchemy seems sure to disrupt a Gunslingers action economy.
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I never thought of Way of the Drift was gonna be shafted by this, why is combination weapons just better then gun and sword? Seriously Paizo you gotta Errata this in the Spring Errata, that seems so weird. So basically what I am hearing is Way of the Drifter is the dead/trap choice of the class? You gotta love when choices are added which aren't balanced to the rest of the class I.E Pre-Remastered Superstitious Instinct Barbarian.
Hmmm... a way of the Drifter gunslinger can have a Piercing Wind (Melee) in one hand and a Dueling Pistol in the other. A Triggerbrand using piercing wind two handed will have similar performance, just with worse range but without the need for blazons of shared power. If anything the drifter comes out ahead because reloading strike is stronger than touch and go.
So there's not a power imbalance, there's just a bizarre incentive for Drifters to use Combination weapons for their melee weapons, as Squiggit says.
I guess the other Triggerbrand option is to maximize your strength and use a Gun sword, but that limits the rest of your stats, and the sword half of the gunsword is just a two handed longsword which isn't exciting for a high strength investment.
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[...]
The alchemical bomb feat on gunslinger was also updated to 4+half level of advanced alchemy of at level bombs or ammunition.
[...]
Alchemists lost any ability that links -number- of items to level.
Gunslingers for 1 feat, gains 4 + 1/2 level of a limited subset.
I mean, it's great that Gunslinger got a genuinely good feat out of the remaster like that, but holy hell, why does Paizo appear to hate/fear Alchemists so much.
Quick Alchemy being infinite and Versatile Vials coming back at 2 per 10 minutes is more than enough to make up for any X + half level PER DAY.
If anything, Gunslinger is getting the short end of this stick.
Especially if that's in batches of 4. You spend it all on level 0 bullets, and risk running out before the day ends if in multiple encounters.
The way I see it, this is potentially a massive nerf to gunslingers, to go from batches of 10 to batches of 4. Possibly crippling the ability to use them in dungeons. The class might be 'limited' to campaigns with few daily encounters now.
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That seems a touch hyperbolic as conclusions go...if you're somehow shooting enough to run out past very early levels, you can probs craft some with downtime or work something else out with your GM. Basic ammo isn't really meant to be a problem in most cases.
As for Drifter, combination weapon melees being incentivized is a little weird, but it's less so than original Singular Expertise was, I think. Combination weapons are closer to standard ones in overall power now, and maybe they figure that the slight reduction in traits and/or die sizes is enough to make them okay to give at full proficiency — you can just ignore the firearm part flavor-wise, at least.
(The other weird thing is not allowing bayonets and reinforced stocks to get the better proficiency, and I wonder if that has anything to do with two-handed stocks ending up super strong by finesse standards/for something you can attack seamlessly with. :b )
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I'm a bit sad about the Inventor, there were more things to do. Among many:
- The resistances given by Armor Innovation being weaker than a Ring of Elemental Resistance.
- The Construct Companion lacking the ability to use Barding and as such starting with awful AC.
- The Construct Innovation having nearly nothing to make it better than a normal Animal Companion (the Modifications make up for the loss of Support Benefit, Advanced Maneuver and Specialized Animal Companion abilities).
- The Weapon Innovation Modifications at low level which are all the same and unimpactful as hell.
Many things that could have been changed not really to increase the power of the Inventor but to make the Innovations stand out compared to similar abilities.
Still, the reduction in damage taken is nice and the extra point of AC of Armor Innovation is really strong.
Inventor was one of the worse classes that I read in legacy. It was so bad that most people not ever consider to play with one they simply ignore it.
After remaster it was probably the worst class. The people just don't talk about it probably because thematically it was a way less traditional game class than a wizard for example and most people just focused into the wizard problems more due its thematic importance in a fantasy game.
But almost every mechanic in the class is a meme. The innovations are meh! Gadget requires feats and are meh! The companion is no better than any other companion with the exception of construct immunities and is just better than other innovations basically because allows the inventor to use unstable activities "at range"! Overdrive is a very weak additional damage with a chance of failure and wastes an action! Explode and other unstable actions are basically pseudo focus point activity that usually just works once per encounter.
It's a class the needs a full overhaul like alchemist, swashbucklers and investigators got, not just minor adjustments.
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Inventor was one of the worse classes that I read in legacy.
I disagree. The class is a bit of a mess but the chassis is much more solid than your analysis.
It combines martial abilities, which are very good at low level, and AoE spell based effects for high level (especially GigaVolt which is better than any Focus spell you can find in the game).
I agree that it's rather challenging to build and play. But it's not one of the worst classes in the game, far from it.
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Investigator got a full rework I thought just minor changes which actually helped it in the correct areas. Inventor is a class I have seen in action and I think about one half to three-quarters of the experience was just good dice rolls over a good class mechanically. Needing to roll to use my base bonus damage is terrible, the reason Thaumaturge gets away is the failure effect and that's bonus bonus err extra damage on top of bonus damage.
I was gonna ask, How would Quick Alchemy work with Gunslinger? Because to my knowledge you would need to; make the ammunition, activate, reload, fire. All within a single Turn.
Or is it just going to be a bomb/non-activated ammo only thing?
Unless its doing something additional like letting you quick alchemy craft & reload as a single action, the action economy for non-basic ammo with it is basically unworkable and requires Haste to function. And you can't use it to make other things like Elixirs. By time you can get this feat, you should be able to have enough basic ammo on hand that running out midday will almost never happen.
It would still work with Alchemical Shot depending on how that got changed, but I found that pretty inferior to Elemental Ammunition since it Alchemical Shot can misfire and doesn't mix with other special shots like Ghost Shot (which Elemental Ammo does if you can fit activation into your actions before shooting).
I honestly can't think of a lot of cases outside "swarms" where a Gunslinger actually wants to throw a bomb, but even then Elemental Ammunition does splash damage.
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Inventor was one of the worse classes that I read in legacy.I disagree. The class is a bit of a mess but the chassis is much more solid than your analysis.
It combines martial abilities, which are very good at low level, and AoE spell based effects for high level (especially GigaVolt which is better than any Focus spell you can find in the game).
I agree that it's rather challenging to build and play. But it's not one of the worst classes in the game, far from it.
Megavolt is an example of how bad and mess the class is. Its basically an small and bit weaker Lightning Bolt spell that uses inventor class DC that's progress poorly than any caster spell DC and that have only one usage per encounter in 3/4 of encounters (as any unstable action). Gigavolt is a lvl 12 feat that just allows it to ricochet in walls to help to prevent some friendly fire in some situations in small rooms it's basically an Explosion that use electricity damage and uses line instead of emanation and have a better AoE control.
What can make these Unstable action worth a bit more is when you choose to have an Construct Companion where you can reduce the action cost to 1-action (because it's the construct who will use the 2-actions) yet this requires a lot of feat investment along the way to just keep the companion alive (improving its stats).
I can't defend that a class is solid when you have to make a lot of investment to make only one of its decent thing to keep working reasonable.
And let's face it, "martial abilities" in a class that uses int as a key attribute and the only real compensation for that is at most putting the int bonus as additional damage after spending an action and having a critical success vs standard DC is not reasonable.
If the intention is to get a feat that gives me an AoE on a martial using the Martial's class DC, I prefer to do a Dragon Instinct Barbarian, at least I have much higher HP, I use Str as a key attribute for both my class DC and attacks, and I have much better additional damage without having to spend an action that can fail for it and without having to spend a lot of feats to be worth it.
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I've been having a phenomenal time with my inventor, Spart, in PFS. I agree that the class is a little undertuned, but it's not nearly as bad as people seem to be indicating.
What's more, most of the issues I was having with the class appear to have been fixed in the Remaster if I've heard right and the rumors are to believed.
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Megavolt is an example of how bad and mess the class is. Its basically an small and bit weaker Lightning Bolt spell that uses inventor class DC that's progress poorly than any caster spell DC and that have only one usage per encounter in 3/4 of encounters (as any unstable action). Gigavolt is a lvl 12 feat that just allows it to ricochet in walls to help to prevent some friendly fire in some situations in small rooms it's basically an Explosion that use electricity damage and uses line instead of emanation and have a better AoE control.
What can make these Unstable action worth a bit more is when you choose to have an Construct Companion where you can reduce the action cost to 1-action (because it's the construct who will use the 2-actions) yet this requires a lot of feat investment along the way to just keep the companion alive (improving its stats).
I stop you right away. Megavolt is extremely cool, it's in line with the top focus spells in the game. Gigavolt is outstanding: Hitting all enemies and no allies with 1d12/2 level damage with an excellent save (it's 2 points lower during 6 levels but it's not magical and as such sidesteps a lot of monster defenses, so it's nearly on par with Legendary casting).
And at level 14 it's even twice per fight.The Construct Companion makes all these actions usable earlier (Explode is a bit of a mess to use without it and Megavolt becomes easier to use, too). And I fully agree that the class asks for a lot of feats to work. That's why I say it's a mess, because it is one. But in good hands it does great things, that's why I don't consider it weak, it's just for really experienced players.
If the intention is to get a feat that gives me an AoE on a martial using the Martial's class DC, I prefer to do a Dragon Instinct Barbarian
The Barbarian will be much more of a martial, clearly. Also, overall, the Barbarian class is super strong and in my opinion stronger than the Inventor. But the Dragon Breath is nowhere close to the Inventor AoE abilities. Mostly because of its awful area, 30-ft cones are awful to position and won't hit as many enemies as a good GigaVolt. Also, you have to wait for level 6 to get it when the Inventor can start right away with Explode (not exceptionnal, but still there). And Dragon Breath is magical, too. To that I'll add that the Inventor gets free Legendary Crafting, so it's more of a skill monkey than the Barbarian. So I don't think both classes nor builds are comparable.
I agree with most that you said SuperBid. I'm not defending that Inventor is a trash because this doesn't exists in PF2e. The game designers make an incredible work in the game to a point that we don't have trash classes nor too OP classes just some very small ones that are subpar and another small set of classes that are little bit OP when compared to many others.
And that's the currently case of Inventor currently. It's not like as if you play with it you will get a bad experience but almost everything in the class looks more expensive or weak than we have with many other classes in the game. Its remaster looks like diminishes this problem but it looks like the essence of the problems still there. Unimpressive innovations, unimpressive gadgets, weak and expensive additional damage, and interesting but too expensive feats to do similar things that other classes does but without requiring so much investment.
Unimpressive innovations, unimpressive gadgets, weak and expensive additional damage,
I agree for the innovations, that's for me the main issue of the class. Gadgets are not really part of the class, there's a small feat line and that's all, I'd not blame them too much.
Overdrive is weird, I also agree it should have been a free action to make it in line with Barbarian Rage. But I also think people are considering it as more important than it is: It's a bit like Arcane Cascade, you are not supposed to use it during each and every fight, the bonus to damage is not high enough to justify that.
For me, the main asset of the Inventor is to combine a Strike and a "spell" (in its case an Explode or Mega/Gigavolt). It's one of the few ways to reach very high damage in PF2. And I think it does it ok. The only other class able to switch between single target and AoE damage effectively is the Kineticist and the Inventor scores higher in both single target and AoE damage.
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Does the Inventor still have no means to interact with advanced weapons? It always bugged me that I couldn't be like a Dwarf Inventor who's developing a better Dwarven Waraxe, because even though an ancestry feat lets me treat it as martial for proficiency, I can't do anything with that as an Inventor.
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Overdrive is weird, I also agree it should have been a free action to make it in line with Barbarian Rage. But I also think people are considering it as more important than it is: It's a bit like Arcane Cascade, you are not supposed to use it during each and every fight, the bonus to damage is not high enough to justify that.
I don't think that comparison with Arcane Cascade is a good comparison because magus also have SpellStrike as it main ability so in practice even with the action economy not being too good (because you need to cast a spell before enter into Arcane Cascade) magus sum both Arcane Cascade and SpellStrike damage. Comparing to this Inventor is way more weak and curiously also way more limited in terms of versatility. Also for too many players Arcane Cascade is an optional mechanic to a point that some magus just don't use it to be able to SpellStrike once more. Inventor basically doesn't have such option you need to overdrive or will simply becomes even more weak.
Overdrive is just a weak and weird mechanic. Something that exists independently of your inventor concept just to compensate the fact that inventor is a weak martial. It's so bad that a bomber alchemist can get the same damage in its splashes that are passives, AoE and only not work in a critical failure and that also can be double using a feat.
I don't think that comparison with Arcane Cascade is a good comparison because magus also have SpellStrike as it main ability
And the Inventor has Explode and then Mega/Gigavolt as its main ability. So I really do think the comparison is fitting.
Now I agree that Overdrive is weird. The fact that you can technically activate it outside combat is odd and it's unclear if it's an expectation or a mistake. Also, it's not really better than Arcane Cascade as Arcane Cascade doesn't have a chance to miss and it comes with additional effects when Overdrive additional effects are close to non-existant and specific to some Innovations.
You also forget the extra 1d6 of damage the Inventor gets at level 9. Actually, with a critical success to Overdrive, the Inventor has roughly the damage buff of the Barbarian: 4 at level 1, 5 at level 3, 6 at level 7, 1d6+6 (9.5) at level 9, 1d6+7 (10.5) at level 10, 1d6+8 (11.5) at level 15 and 1d6+9 (12.5) at level 20 compared to 3 at level 1, 7 at level 7 and 13 at level 15 for a Fury Barbarian.
So I still disagree with you when you paint Overdrive (and the Inventor) as weak. It's clunky and much harder to play than a Barbarian and I agree that the class is not part of the top martials like the Barbarian is, but it's not as bad as you say.
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Someone said they can use Advanced Weapons as the base for their Weapon Innovation, but don't get the initial modification.
You can apparently start with a Level 0 Advanced Weapon (so, no Barricade Buster) as your Innovation, but if you do then you do not get an initial modification.
I don't think that comparison with Arcane Cascade is a good comparison because magus also have SpellStrike as it main abilityAnd the Inventor has Explode and then Mega/Gigavolt as its main ability. So I really do think the comparison is fitting.
Now I agree that Overdrive is weird. The fact that you can technically activate it outside combat is odd and it's unclear if it's an expectation or a mistake. Also, it's not really better than Arcane Cascade as Arcane Cascade doesn't have a chance to miss and it comes with additional effects when Overdrive additional effects are close to non-existant and specific to some Innovations.
You also forget the extra 1d6 of damage the Inventor gets at level 9. Actually, with a critical success to Overdrive, the Inventor has roughly the damage buff of the Barbarian: 4 at level 1, 5 at level 3, 6 at level 7, 1d6+6 (9.5) at level 9, 1d6+7 (10.5) at level 10, 1d6+8 (11.5) at level 15 and 1d6+9 (12.5) at level 20 compared to 3 at level 1, 7 at level 7 and 13 at level 15 for a Fury Barbarian.
So I still disagree with you when you paint Overdrive (and the Inventor) as weak. It's clunky and much harder to play than a Barbarian and I agree that the class is not part of the top martials like the Barbarian is, but it's not as bad as you say.
Maguses can Spellstrike more than once per combat 100% of the time though, unless combat is literally super short. An Inventor can only use their "main ability" twice per fight 30% of the time until level 14, where they finally get to use it twice. Yay.
Your Overdrive comparison also kind of falls flat when you realise an Inventor starts with only a 15% Critical Success Chance, and they max out at 40% CS chance*. This means you're much more likely to spend an Action and only get Half-int to damage, and while you can use actions in subsequent turns to try to get a CS, now you're comparing 2 actions to get Full int to damage to a Free action on rolling Initiative, there's just no comparison here, Overdrive is bad. It was sort of OK when the Inventor came out but the Thaumaturge and remastered Rage have made it even worse.
*Due to how level based DCs work and when Item bonuses become available, the CS chance of Overdrive fluctuates between 35 and 40% at levels 9+, but it's 40% at 20th so I went with that. My main point is you have higher chances of not getting a CS on your first Overdrive.
Overdrive is bad
As I said, I consider that Overdrive is like Arcane Cascade and Boost Eidolon. You should activate them when they are specifically useful or cheap to activate. Sometimes, you'll have the occasion or it'll be a good move. But often, you'll focus on your other things.
Maguses can Spellstrike more than once per combat 100% of the time though
Explode and Mega/Gigavolt are AoE effects, they very quickly lose their steam. Being able to cast them more than once at the cost of an action like Spellstrike would not be such an upside.
Overall, I don't think we really disagree. I fully admit that there are weird things around Overdrive, and it's unclear if it's meant to be often on like Rage or rarely on like Boost Eidolon as it's a bit in between. I also don't think the Inventor is a top class in the game so comparing it to the Barbarian, which is now rock solid since the remaster, will just show its limitations. But that's always the case when people compare to top classes in this game, other classes always look weak in comparison.
What I do think is that people focus way too much on Overdrive. It's a tool for the Inventor, not a necessity like Rage is for the Barbarian.
I also think that the class is fine as is in terms of power. There are many classes that are not really better: Swashbuckler, Investigator, non-Thief/Ruffian Rogue, Alchemist, Thaumaturge. Actually, most of the classes that are "martials with a twist" are in line with the Inventor so I think it's the balance point for Paizo.
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Explode and Mega/Gigavolt are AoE effects, they very quickly lose their steam. Being able to cast them more than once at the cost of an action like Spellstrike would not be such an upside.
Overall, I don't think we really disagree. I fully admit that there are weird things around Overdrive, and it's unclear if it's meant to be often on like Rage or rarely on like Boost Eidolon as it's a bit in between. I also don't think the Inventor is a top class in the game so comparing it to the Barbarian, which is now rock solid since the remaster, will just show its limitations. But that's always the case when people compare to top classes in this game, other classes always look weak in comparison.
What I do think is that people focus way too much on Overdrive. It's a tool for the Inventor, not a necessity like Rage is for the Barbarian.
I also think that the class is fine as is in terms of power. There are many classes that are not really better: Swashbuckler, Investigator, non-Thief/Ruffian Rogue, Alchemist, Thaumaturge. Actually, most of the classes that are "martials with a twist" are in line with the Inventor so I think it's the balance point for Paizo.
Explode and Gigavolt are AoEs, but what about Searing Restoration? Megaton/Gigaton Strike? Electrify Armor? Deep Freeze?
There's a lot of Unstable actions besides the ones you keep bringing up and basically all of them aren't powerful enough to justify Unstable as is.
As for your last paragraph, I heavily disagree. Overdrive is as much (if not more) a core part of Inventor as Unstable effects. Without it you're just plain worse in the damage department than everyone else, especially because your KAS isn't your to-hit stat. I mean, just comparing:
Swashbuckler: You have KAS in a to-hit stat. Bravado ensures you get the full benefit of Panache even on a failure and even against things that would be immune (such as Intimidating mindless creatures). Your Bravado actions do more than just give you extra damage (except Battledancer, which requires feat investment).*
Investigator: Devise a Stratagem can be a free Action. It doesn't require a skill check. It allows you to use your KAS as to-hit and it adds damage on top. And if you get a low roll, you can use it for something else.
Non-Thief/Ruffian Rogues: You can have KAS as your to-hit (remember, the rackets allow you to switch KAS, they don't force you.). You can still get Sneak Attack off by simply flanking, meaning your damage bonus doesn't require a check. And when it does require a check, it does more than just enable Sneak Attack (remember, Overdrive just gives you more damage).*
Alchemsit: Actually in the same boat as Inventor, though they far outstrip them in versatility.
Thaumaturge: Exploit Vulnerability gives full damage bonuses on F, S and CS (unlike Overdrive) and, on a S and CS, gives additional benefits in knowing resistances/weaknesses/immunities (and even more, with a single level 1 feat).*
So no, they aren't in-line with Inventor. They were, before the Remaster (particularly Swashbuckler and Investigator) but post Remaster most of them are just better.
*One thing to note here of course is that all three of these depend on enemy values, unlike Overdrive. This means they'll be easier against lower level enemies and harder against higher level enemies, which we could argue is why their F effects are more powerful than Overdrive's. But Overdrive is also the only one of these that actively damages you in a CF and prevents you from trying again, and I will reiterate that all it does is increase your damage, so IMO it's still a worse use of an Action than any of them.
Overdrive is badAs I said, I consider that Overdrive is like Arcane Cascade and Boost Eidolon. You should activate them when they are specifically useful or cheap to activate. Sometimes, you'll have the occasion or it'll be a good move. But often, you'll focus on your other things.
Maguses can Spellstrike more than once per combat 100% of the time thoughExplode and Mega/Gigavolt are AoE effects, they very quickly lose their steam. Being able to cast them more than once at the cost of an action like Spellstrike would not be such an upside.
Overall, I don't think we really disagree. I fully admit that there are weird things around Overdrive, and it's unclear if it's meant to be often on like Rage or rarely on like Boost Eidolon as it's a bit in between. I also don't think the Inventor is a top class in the game so comparing it to the Barbarian, which is now rock solid since the remaster, will just show its limitations. But that's always the case when people compare to top classes in this game, other classes always look weak in comparison.
What I do think is that people focus way too much on Overdrive. It's a tool for the Inventor, not a necessity like Rage is for the Barbarian.
I also think that the class is fine as is in terms of power. There are many classes that are not really better: Swashbuckler, Investigator, non-Thief/Ruffian Rogue, Alchemist, Thaumaturge. Actually, most of the classes that are "martials with a twist" are in line with the Inventor so I think it's the balance point for Paizo.
My point of discordance was ever about consider that Inventor as a "solid class". But I agree that MegaVolt+Gigavolt+Unstable Redundancies
is a good ability combination that are pretty efficient and does a good damage but that think it is too expensive to what it provides and it's not enough to justify the class as a good class when we consider all other class limitations (MAD class, weak, clunky and complicated additional damage, unimpressive innovations that was supposed to be its main ability, unimpressive gadgets thats was supposed to be its versatility improvement feat like Cauldron is for witches and Scroll Esoterica is for Thaumaturges (not because the Gadget Specialist feat is bad but due the available Gadgets are weak and meh in general and due the exotic characteristics of gears in the setting we don't got any additional Gadgets after G&G)).My point that I still kept is that the class is weak, clunky and conceptually strange to what its proposes. Making it a subpar class.