This question formed when my inner dice goblin urged me to buy more of those mega sized dice in bulk, and I wondered whether using a 4d4 in an actual game is practical or not.
So back to the topic, would something like a major striking whip serve my hypothetical martial well against the average BBEG?
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You'll want to be someone who can add a bunch of static damage from their class, but something like a Whip-using Thaumaturge can absolutely work.
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This question formed when my inner dice goblin urged me to buy more of those mega sized dice in bulk, and I wondered whether using a 4d4 in an actual game is practical or not.
So back to the topic, would something like a major striking whip serve my hypothetical martial well against the average BBEG?
There are cantrips that do 4d4 damage as a 5th level caster. That is definitely not too many d4s.
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There are cantrips that do 4d4 damage as a 5th level caster. That is definitely not too many d4s.This question formed when my inner dice goblin urged me to buy more of those mega sized dice in bulk, and I wondered whether using a 4d4 in an actual game is practical or not.
So back to the topic, would something like a major striking whip serve my hypothetical martial well against the average BBEG?
Heck, at character lvl 3 Needle Darts will deal 4d4 of damages. xD
(And 12d4 at character lvl 19.)
Those final weapon d4s do feel expensive for what you're getting, but the weapons themselves are just as valid as in the early game. As in you need a reason to choose them over a higher die weapon and that's usually tied to abilities unlocked by your class. Most clearly there's the Thief Rogue who's usually operating with a d6 weapon so the step down to a d4 hurts little if you're getting some cool weapon traits in return. And Rogues are notorious at high levels. Other classes that reward agile/finesse weapons are in similar positions (or one-handed in the case of Thaumaturges). Notably, d12 weapons (+ class damage bonus) establish the power curve, so these bonuses to lighter weapons are to get them to where d12 weapon wielders begin.
Meanwhile the other martials whose bonuses aren't tied to agile/finesse would be hampered by such low dice. They'll often go down to d10 for Reach, but any lower hurts. Fighters lack a damage boost, gaining their advantage through accuracy, so rely on their die type (along w/ Deadly/Fatal) perhaps the most (with Champions being beside them...as in the classes with the most defensive potential pay for it if it requires scaling down to a one-handed weapon).
So it all comes down to what kind of martial you're playing. A Swashbuckler, say with Guardian's Deflection, can flourish with a whip if they can pull off Panache most rounds. A Fighter, though they'd add lots of debuffing & defensive potential, would lose most of their damage wielding a whip. The Gnome Flick Mace lost a lot of popularity merely going down from a d8 to a d6 (which funnily enough makes it optimal for a remastered Ruffian Rogue).
This question formed when my inner dice goblin urged me to buy more of those mega sized dice in bulk, and I wondered whether using a 4d4 in an actual game is practical or not.
So back to the topic, would something like a major striking whip serve my hypothetical martial well against the average BBEG?
Honestly, D4 as a dice isn't used very often in this game (it's probably now on par with or slightly more frequently than D12s nowadays, and even then it's mostly for casters), and D4 weapons as a martial-type character is very hard to justify without sticking to pure flavor, or needing to utilize specific weapon traits/loadouts for it. But depending on which martial-type character you use, it might not be the worst thing, as certain martials can still deal decent damage despite using D4s.
Rogues with Sneak Attack add D6s per attack to Off-Guard enemies. Investigators work similarly with Devise a Stratagem, which IMO is just a worse version of the Rogue. Rangers with Precision add D8s to hunted enemies, and Flurry lets you make reduced penalties with consecutive attacks (pretty solid with an Agile-type weapon), as well as Gravity Weapon for added flat damage on the first attack each round. Thaumaturge can deal solid raw damage with their Exploit Vulnerability (making the D4 dice mostly irrelevant), as well as their Implement's Empowerment adding more flat damage to compensate for lacking two-handed options. Magus can utilize Spellstrike regardless of weapon type, and still deal solid damage (and with the reach of the Whip, can do so from a relatively safe distance as well). Swashbucklers can utilize Finishers with the Whip for added damage, and have other ancillary benefits. Inventors can add even more traits to their weapons, as well as flat damage boosters to their attacks. Warpriests with Deadly Simplicity and Channel Smite boosts your D4s to D6s, and has solid burst potential as well.
So, you have numerous options to work with. None of these options are optimal, but they can certainly be viable in a more casual party, and I might actually find some of these options personally fun to play/try out. But as others state, you definitely lock yourself out of certain character classes based on your weapon(s) of choice.
No one I know has used a d4 weapon in the end game...or ever for the most part. One downside of the striking rune system is it puts a lot of damage on making sure to use the highest damage die available to your class.
If you feel like doing it, have fun. Most of your damage will come from your extra runes and class abilities.
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No one I know has used a d4 weapon in the end game...or ever for the most part. One downside of the striking rune system is it puts a lot of damage on making sure to use the highest damage die available to your class.
If you feel like doing it, have fun. Most of your damage will come from your extra runes and class abilities.
d4 weapons are 'fine' for classes like the Rogue that are generally balanced around using d6 weapons: The Light Mace and Poi were useful bludgeoning options for my (pre-remaster) Thief...
You'll want to be someone who can add a bunch of static damage from their class, but something like a Whip-using Thaumaturge can absolutely work.
Yeah, this. I played a Whip Thaumaturge in Shadows at Sundown and it was a great character. Damage is not awesome (d4 is still a d4), but you get a lot of flat extras added so its acceptable, and it comes packing utility.
With Weapon Implement, you can disrupt at reach and that's quite nice with how many actions Implement's Interruption works on. Get good at Athletics and you can Trip at reach, which the Bow Rogue in our party really loved. I tossed a Shifting rune on it for cases where Nonlethal damage was a problem (or when I needed to smash objects), but that's not really necessary to get a lot out of it.
(Alternately if you just want to roll lots of d4, Live Wire gets up to 20d4, pending nerf of course.)
I played a premaster Hobgoblin Gymnast Swashbuckler with Scorpion whip to 17th (when, for reasons, that campaign group collapsed). It was quite fun. (Would be even more fun remastered.)
(Alternately if you just want to roll lots of d4, Live Wire gets up to 20d4, pending nerf of course.)
... and still gets 10 of 'em on a miss.
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My big issue with d4 damage weapons is their competition: Fist. It’s why I can’t even take the old dagger seriously even though it has advantages (damage types, throwable). Whip has reach and trip at least but still hard to think of d4 as ‘worth it’.
d4 feel unsatisfying to me and all my players if we dont get to roll loads of them, which with weapons of course does not happen
for (almost) every situation where you could use a d4 weapon, you can have at least a d6 and usually dont lose much
and d4s ruined the starknife for me
I really like the design but its so unsatisfying to use..
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My Thaumaturge player decided to go with starknife as his main weapon, but we are still at the other end of 'endgame'. I'll let you know in a few years :)
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My Thaumaturge player decided to go with starknife as his main weapon, but we are still at the other end of 'endgame'. I'll let you know in a few years :)
We're in the last book of Strength of Thousands and our Thaumaturge uses a Starknife and is our main damage dealer. It's been working just fine.
The versatility of being able to throw it (with Returning) makes up for the smaller die size.
The main problem with d4 is that there is almost always a better option. Especially when you consider all the items and feats that are available, there is almost always another way to get what you want. It may take some time to organise but by the endgame you should have it together.
Air repeaters are awesome for casters, highly recommend. 6 shots an encounter for those extra 3rd actions, can have 3 damage property runes for the sweet weakness triggers, disabling regen and occasional armour destruction (depending on campaign themes), uses ammunition so poison and magic ammunition are options.
It is often a better investment to have a secondary weapon like this that skips being up to date with striking runes than getting defensive runes asap as a caster.
Air repeaters are awesome for casters, highly recommend. 6 shots an encounter for those extra 3rd actions, can have 3 damage property runes for the sweet weakness triggers, disabling regen and occasional armour destruction (depending on campaign themes), uses ammunition so poison and magic ammunition are options.
It is often a better investment to have a secondary weapon like this that skips being up to date with striking runes than getting defensive runes asap as a caster.
That is useful but you can get d8 1 handed thrown weapons with a Returning Rune/Thrower's Bandolier, that will do more damage. Or if you invest feats then an automatic repeating hand crossbow will work better at high level. Or just get an action to reload it while doing something else. Or even just a reload weapon you use once per encounter then discard till the end of the encounter.
High level casters tend to have better things to do with their actions than a d4 weapon attack. There are lots of single action spell options out there. High level martials almost certainly do.
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Occasionally a high level caster will be included in a rank 7 haste, and not really have all that much to do with that extra action that can only be used to Stride/Strike. I don't think it's worth spending tons of money on, so maybe not runed up to your maximum. But a +1 striking weapon is dirt cheap at that point and it's a few points of bonus damage for a leftover action.
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I think another good distinction to make is d4 weapons as primary weapon, vs as secondary weapon. Feats like Double Slice nudge you towards agile weapons for the secondary weapon, so then you're only choosing between a d4 or d6 anyway.
The main use case I see for having a whip is reach to stay out of Reactive Strike range (or nonlethaling enemies), but bigger enemies with reach are more common the higher level you get.
As for whether anyone uses d4 in endgame. My level 15 halfling fighter's weapon of choice is a humble frying pan (d4 weapon with fatal d8). It is definitely not the most optimal fighter weapon choice, but on the other hand its incredibly fun to be hitting people with a frying pan.
That is useful but you can get d8 1 handed thrown weapons with a Returning Rune/Thrower's Bandolier, that will do more damage. Or if you invest feats then an automatic repeating hand crossbow will work better at high level. Or just get an action to reload it while doing something else. Or even just a reload weapon you use once per encounter then discard till the end of the encounter.
High level casters tend to have better things to do with their actions than a d4 weapon attack. There are lots of single action spell options out there. High level martials almost certainly do.
It is just for the weakness triggering and ability to use poisons and magic ammunition (as I said), returning runes are a no go as well because they take up an element.
Having 6 shots is enough to last basically any encounter thanks to the mentioned other single action options. Single shot ranged weapons are a waste of gold, even if they are d8... it is just not that much of a damage boost compared to bypassing resistances or targeting weaknesses.
Not saying it is going to be a must pick, but it is cheap, effective and offers some options that other simple proficiency casters don't otherwise have.
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The main use case I see for having a whip is reach to stay out of Reactive Strike range (or nonlethaling enemies), but bigger enemies with reach are more common the higher level you get.
As for whether anyone uses d4 in endgame. My level 15 halfling fighter's weapon of choice is a humble frying pan (d4 weapon with fatal d8). It is definitely not the most optimal fighter weapon choice, but on the other hand its incredibly fun to be hitting people with a frying pan.
I am very tempted to make a halfling exemplar and have an icon frying pan.
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I am very tempted to make a halfling exemplar and have an icon frying pan.
Po-ta-toes.
I am very tempted to make a halfling exemplar and have an icon frying pan.Po-ta-toes.
Titan Breaker Frying Pan, Horn of Plenty to keep people fed, and Skybearer's belt so you can carry your allies even if you can't carry their burden?
Unfortunately Fatal dice aren't improved by himble strikes, so mechanically our Hafling Gardener is better off with Shears (Shears with a die increase are actually really good finesse weapons- Basically a rapier that trades disarm for Versatile P/S)
Eh going from D4 to D6 for normal attacks and then D8 on fatal plus the examplar damage boosts I think would still be a fun viable character. Bonking the crap out of people with my mystical frying pan calls to me.
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The Light Pick is a very valid d4 weapon for a Double Slice Fighter.
Besides this one, I agree that d4 weapons are in general underwhelming.
But the top d4 roll is Garden of Healing for out of combat healing: 10d4 per rank, maxed at 100d4 :D
I love to roll them in front of PFS players as this heals just sooooo much.
I am very tempted to make a halfling exemplar and have an icon frying pan.The main use case I see for having a whip is reach to stay out of Reactive Strike range (or nonlethaling enemies), but bigger enemies with reach are more common the higher level you get.
As for whether anyone uses d4 in endgame. My level 15 halfling fighter's weapon of choice is a humble frying pan (d4 weapon with fatal d8). It is definitely not the most optimal fighter weapon choice, but on the other hand its incredibly fun to be hitting people with a frying pan.
That sounds awesome too. If my character wasn't playing Prey for Death I definitely would have considered exemplar for this one.