New class options you're really hoping to see?

[Azoriel]

Not sure if this constitutes thread necromancy, but something suddenly dawned on me.

I want rules for having unicorn, pegasus, and wyvern animal companions. Having fantastical mounts and pets are a pretty basic fantasy trope; I remember it being one of the first things I looked into when I started playing OD&D (as in "elf is a character class" D&D), and I'm a bit surprised it's not something that's been more regularly fleshed out as part of the basic rules.

[PossibleCabbage]

I wand a Fungus Order for Druids. You can borrow some necromancer stuff for it!

[Squark]

Azoriel wrote:

Not sure if this constitutes thread necromancy, but something suddenly dawned on me.

I want rules for having unicorn, pegasus, and wyvern animal companions. Having fantastical mounts and pets are a pretty basic fantasy trope; I remember it being one of the first things I looked into when I started playing OD&D (as in "elf is a character class" D&D), and I'm a bit surprised it's not something that's been more regularly fleshed out as part of the basic rules.

Howl of the Wild's advanced animal companions rules would be perfect for this, actually.

[Azoriel]

Squark wrote:

Howl of the Wild's advanced animal companions rules would be perfect for this, actually.

I like the stat blocks that are offered there, though to my knowledge it doesn't cover the creatures I mentioned earlier. To a certain extent, you could use the hippogriff to approximate the pegasus, and the roc to approximate the wyvern, probably swapping out the roc's knockback effect with a poison effect instead. The unicorn is a bit harder to do due to the innately magical natural weapon attack; all the more reason to wish-list official stat blocks.

[Squark]

Sorry, I meant that the monsters you mentioned could be added as new Advanced Companions. The one issue is that Paizo seems reluctant to release animal companions that are sapient- Pegasi, Unicorns, and Wyverns are all noticably smarter than any other companion released to date.

[arcady]

NoxiousMiasma wrote:

Any particular class options people are really hoping to see in the future?

Class options...

I want to see more for Kineticist. More impulses.

I'd like to see a whole new set of 'gate' options that are NOT elements, and with some; if taken prevent you from taking element gates.
- To expand that game design into other ideas.

But Paizo's already said they're 'shy' about non-Vancian options.

---------

More Thaumaturge Implements. Thaumaturge is the only Cha based non-vancian class in the game. So I'd like to see more from it. I'd like to see some way for a non-weapon Thaum to be able to use a shortbow at proficiency.

---------

More alchemist options for weapon proficiency. It'd be nice for the class to be able to use a non-reload based ranged weapon.

It'd be nice to have some AoE bombs to it can target a save (reflex for explosions, fort for poison gas).

---------

Back to kineticist...

Give it some ability to get an elemental animal companion. That should not be a druid only thing.

---------

Those are my ideas at the moment based on recent characters I've been playing with.

[Squark]

arcady wrote:

More Thaumaturge Implements. Thaumaturge is the only Cha based non-vancian class in the game. So I'd like to see more from it. I'd like to see some way for a non-weapon Thaum to be able to use a shortbow at proficiency.

Does a 1+ handed weapon count as a one-handed weapon? I'm pretty sure they're their own distinct category, so it's not an eligible choice for a weapon implement.

It probably doesn't break anything if you allow a thaumaturge to use a bow for exploit vulnerability but disallow Implements Empowerment. The bow is definitely a two handed weapon while being fired, which shuts of Implement's empowerment, but on the other hand since you're using a 2-handed weapon you shouldn't need the "hand rebate" anyway.

[Easl]

arcady wrote:

I want to see more for Kineticist. More impulses.

I'd like to see a whole new set of 'gate' options that are NOT elements, and with some; if taken prevent you from taking element gates.
- To expand that game design into other ideas.

Me too; give us some outer planes gaters. Boneyard, Holy, and unHoly kineticists. Light and Darkness. Maybe a 1st world gate that has Force (or is that too strong?)

For more impulses, I don't think the core 6 elements need much more combat stuff; there's already many more damage-dealing impulses than any one PC can take. But I'd like to see the range expanded into including exploration and noncombat impulses. They'd have to be pretty good to get players' attention though. For combat, a class feat allowing the kineticist to choose if their blast counts as a strike would open up all sorts of new archetype combos, and maybe create some new buff/debuff opportunities so the class isn't so self-sealed.

[exequiel759]

I expect void and aether to become elements at some point since those are explicitly mentioned in Rage of Elements as being elements that other cultures take into account in Golarion. Those are also the only elements that haven't been brought back from PF1e either.

[arcady]

Squark wrote:

arcady wrote:

More Thaumaturge Implements. Thaumaturge is the only Cha based non-vancian class in the game. So I'd like to see more from it. I'd like to see some way for a non-weapon Thaum to be able to use a shortbow at proficiency.

Does a 1+ handed weapon count as a one-handed weapon? I'm pretty sure they're their own distinct category, so it's not an eligible choice for a weapon implement.

It probably doesn't break anything if you allow a thaumaturge to use a bow for exploit vulnerability but disallow Implements Empowerment.

Yeah, losing implement is too great of an issue for most Thaum builds.

There's a feat to get around needing a free hand during reload - but if you're not weapon implement you're still losing whatever you implement gives or does.

[dirkdragonslayer]

Squark wrote:

Sorry, I meant that the monsters you mentioned could be added as new Advanced Companions. The one issue is that Paizo seems reluctant to release animal companions that are sapient- Pegasi, Unicorns, and Wyverns are all noticably smarter than any other companion released to date.

Actually there is a Wyvern advanced companion option now. It's in Triumph of the Tusk, I think book 2 or 3.

I want an Untamed Druid battle form that doesn't scale size too big, or maybe a feat that reduces the size of a battlefront. As cool as it is to transform into a huge or gargantuan monster and stomp around... Sometimes you need to be regular bear sized to fit in a dungeon or tavern.

[NoxiousMiasma]

dirkdragonslayer wrote:

I want an Untamed Druid battle form that doesn't scale size too big, or maybe a feat that reduces the size of a battlefront. As cool as it is to transform into a huge or gargantuan monster and stomp around... Sometimes you need to be regular bear sized to fit in a dungeon or tavern.

Yeah, it'd be really nice to have an actual high-level Medium battle form before the literal capstone shapeshifter feat. Some extra forms for some of the spells could also be nice - plant form literally only has two options, for example, and monstrosity form only has three!

[Dubious Scholar]

Squark wrote:

arcady wrote:

More Thaumaturge Implements. Thaumaturge is the only Cha based non-vancian class in the game. So I'd like to see more from it. I'd like to see some way for a non-weapon Thaum to be able to use a shortbow at proficiency.

Does a 1+ handed weapon count as a one-handed weapon? I'm pretty sure they're their own distinct category, so it's not an eligible choice for a weapon implement.

It probably doesn't break anything if you allow a thaumaturge to use a bow for exploit vulnerability but disallow Implements Empowerment. The bow is definitely a two handed weapon while being fired, which shuts of Implement's empowerment, but on the other hand since you're using a 2-handed weapon you shouldn't need the "hand rebate" anyway.

You'll run into issues with getting implements out to use still... though there is a case that 1+ weapons are valid for weapon implement. (It's very much a ask your GM situation, but PC states that 1+ weapons are treated as 1 handed for purposes of improvements, and it's not really clear if choosing them as an implement qualifies)

[dirkdragonslayer]

NoxiousMiasma wrote:

dirkdragonslayer wrote:

I want an Untamed Druid battle form that doesn't scale size too big, or maybe a feat that reduces the size of a battlefront. As cool as it is to transform into a huge or gargantuan monster and stomp around... Sometimes you need to be regular bear sized to fit in a dungeon or tavern.

Yeah, it'd be really nice to have an actual high-level Medium battle form before the literal capstone shapeshifter feat. Some extra forms for some of the spells could also be nice - plant form literally only has two options, for example, and monstrosity form only has three!

Heck, I would take an errata to the Form Control feat. Add a stipulation of "You can reduce your size to any previous sizes for when transformed into a battle form" or something. Maybe with an AC penalty if you reduce size if that's too strong. Form control already shrinks you if the spell rank decrease goes below heightened effects anyway.

[JiCi]

Kineticists need option to treat their abilities as spells or strikes, because most Mythic stuff can't even apply.

After THAT is taken cared of, THEN we could add Void and Light as elements. One complaint I had with P1E's class is how there wasn't any illusion-based talent. A photokineticist being able to bend light to create illusions and doubles would be welcomed.

While Void could deal both Void and Bludgeoning damage, Light could deal Spirit or Piercing damage, with the concept of "hard light", acting like a needle.

After that, just add MORE impulses/feats:
------------------
- An advanced Weapon Infusion feat to add more powerful traits
------------------
- An advanced Versatile Blasts feat to add more energy types
* AIR -> Sonic -> sound is a vibration in the air
* EARTH -> Acid -> acid has been earth-based for some time
* FIRE -> Electricity -> plasma is superheated air
* METAL -> Poison -> metal is associated with rust, which is acidic
* WATER -> Fire -> boiling water should be added
* WOOD -> Acid -> plants can be acidic

Factoring the others, with their first Versatile Blast feat:
* VOID -> Cold -> Mental -> void was also about gravity, which is often linked to psychic forces, hence mental
* LIGHT -> Fire -> Vitality -> simple enough
------------------
- A feat that allows you to mix and match energy types. For instance, if you have both Air and Fire, you could deal fire damage with Aerial Boomerang or electricity damage with Flying Flame, to show your versatility.

OR

- A feat that grants extra areas of effects for your Blast. For instance, you could select a Line, a Cone, a Burst or others.

My point is that areas of effect are currently locked to specific elements. This should be addressed.
------------------
- A feat that treats your Blasts and Impulses as Strikes OR Spells, as stated above
------------------
- More multi-elemental feats, with 3 and probably 4 elements to avoid confusion. A 6-element feat would be welcomed as well
------------------
- More feats that replicate spells from their respective elements, especially non-damaging ones.
------------------

[Easl]

JiCi wrote:

Kineticists need option to treat their abilities as spells or strikes, because most Mythic stuff can't even apply.

Don't impulses already count as spells for other game effects? AIUI they count as spells when a monsters has resistance/immunity to spells, seems kinda unfair for a GM to do that but then not count them as spells when it benefits.

Quote:

One complaint I had with P1E's class is how there wasn't any illusion-based talent. A photokineticist being able to bend light to create illusions and doubles would be welcomed.

Agreed. I also agree on advanced weapon infusion. Maybe that's where the "you may count it as a strike" ability goes.

I have not found any issue with needing more different traits on attack. Taking multiple elements and careful feat selection makes it super easy for a kineticist to go through all of 1-20 with a very wide range of damage types available to them. The two things missing which would take them from 'good at targeting the weakness' to 'excellent at targeting the weakness' are force damage and will saves. (IMO)

[JiCi]

Easl wrote:

JiCi wrote:

Kineticists need option to treat their abilities as spells or strikes, because most Mythic stuff can't even apply.

Don't impulses already count as spells for other game effects? AIUI they count as spells when a monsters has resistance/immunity to spells, seems kinda unfair for a GM to do that but then not count them as spells when it benefits.

That's the problem: they don't :O or if they are, they don't count as spells for "requirements".

Easl wrote:

Quote:

One complaint I had with P1E's class is how there wasn't any illusion-based talent. A photokineticist being able to bend light to create illusions and doubles would be welcomed.

Agreed. I also agree on advanced weapon infusion. Maybe that's where the "you may count it as a strike" ability goes.

Indeed... because upon re-reading the description, nowhere it's written about "this counts as a weapon Strike".

Easl wrote:

I have not found any issue with needing more different traits on attack.

Well, those are the current traits available for Weapon Infusion: agile, backswing, forceful, reach, sweep, volley 30 feet, propulsive and thrown trait (depending on what you pick). An advanced feat would add stuff like Disarm, Trip, Grapple, Finesse, Parry and the rest.

Easl wrote:

Taking multiple elements and careful feat selection makes it super easy for a kineticist to go through all of 1-20 with a very wide range of damage types available to them.

Well, that's the thing: if you want just one element, you're limited... and you shouldn't feel like this. A hydrokineticist can splash with icy water, dealing cold damage, but not boiling water for fire damage? A pyrokineticist is probably the most vulnerable with this as well.

My reasoning is that "each element should offer more types to expand", and 3 or 4 types feels adequate.

[Easl]

JiCi wrote:

*Well, that's the thing: if you want just one element, you're limited... and you shouldn't feel like this. A hydrokineticist can splash with icy water, dealing cold damage, but not boiling water for fire damage? A pyrokineticist is probably the most vulnerable with this as well.

I'd be okay with a "Very versatile blasts" feat which adds another available damage type to each elemental blast. I'm not sure it's necessary and I probably wouldn't take it but sure, why not. Your suggested extra feat adds don't sound unbalancing.

Quote:

My reasoning is that "each element should offer more types to expand", and 3 or 4 types feels adequate.

They can start with 3-4 types already. With no build resources at all you start with 2 unless you're single-element fire. Weapon infusion can add 2 additional physical damage types (3 if you're single-element fire, bringing it equal to the other elements). Versatile blasts can add another. Taking two elements can add 1-2 more (2 if you didn't take weapon infusion, but your elemnets have different physical damage types).

Compared to: an early level martial is accessing 1-3 types, but unless you are consciously choosing to switch load-outs just to prove you can, it's probably 1. An early level caster is accessing probably 2-3 (EA, and a backup they only ever use on opponents that have resistance to electricity or a high reflex save lol).

So an early level kineticist is accessing between 1 (Fire only) and 5 (takes weapon infusion, and either dual element or versatile blasts). Kineticists are by no means behind the curve on this and they are very likely ahead of most of their teammates. I can tell you this is true in my play experience, where even starting at level 1 our kineticist was out-flexibility-ing two of the three other PCs in the party. So where is this feeling that you don't get enough damage type choices coming from? You're getting more than most classes.

[JiCi]

Weapon Infusion replaces the damage type, and the Blast becomes its own thing. You can have a Fire Blast dealing Slashing damage as a sword for melee Strikes, but Flying Flame has to be Fire or Cold, if you took Versatile Blasts.

[Easl]

JiCi wrote:

Weapon Infusion replaces the damage type, and the Blast becomes its own thing. You can have a Fire Blast dealing Slashing damage as a sword for melee Strikes, but Flying Flame has to be Fire or Cold, if you took Versatile Blasts.

Ah, my misunderstanding. I was thinking you wanted more options for EB damage types. IMO the kineticist has plenty of EB options already. But it sounds like you want to be able to add or change types for the feat-based impulses. So making your blazing wave count as fire AND cold, or maybe just making it cold on the fly. I haven't thought much about that. Not sure what the balance implications could be, given that feat-taken impulses are a lot stronger than EB.

[Gaulin]

Definitely hope for more impulses. I understand that each element is supposed to have its strengths and weaknesses, but some more variety for each element would help.

Water would appreciate a damage impulse or two that isn't dependent on a reflex save. Sooo many early game monsters have high reflex and it sucks. Something that targets fortitude (maybe that deals cold damage? Makes sense to me, some sort of cold snap) or even an attack roll would help a lot. Otherwise water is probably the most balanced element? I have seen people wanting to be more of a cryomancer than hydromancer so maybe more cold impulses than water.

Wood is also in a pretty good spot. A decent damage option or two to deal with creatures that don't bleed would be nice, since hail of splinters and sanguivolent roots are the best damage options for kineticist. Support wise I think wood is pretty good, maybe if protector tree gets a cool down there might be room for more good support impulses but as it is the element is very strong support wise, imo.

Air has a ton of good utility, again just needs some variety in their damage options, anything but reflex saves. I've seen that people want more electricity options, maybe a 1st level damage option there and a utility option or two? Otherwise wind only has a single damage option in boomerang so could use a couple more.

Metal is probably my favorite element. Damage wise they can target reflex, fort and AC with impulses that scale well, they have good defensive options, and some control. A lot of their power does come in later in the game, so spicing up their early options would be nice (maybe their armor doesn't break plz?).

Fire is great at what it does. More damage types for it's impulses would be great though, even if they don't benefit from the impulse junction or aura. Just for those times you can't get around a fire immunity. Something like a pure bludgeoning explosion.

Earth is thematically my favorite element but maybe my least favorite mechanically. Only three damaging impulses really, tremor can only be used on the ground against grounded enemies (I've always hated tremor like earth abilities, how is shaking ground supposed to hurt, short of a building collapsing), and all of them are overflow. A reliable set of impulses that can be used anywhere, with competitive damage, would be great.

[JiCi]

Easl wrote:

JiCi wrote:

Weapon Infusion replaces the damage type, and the Blast becomes its own thing. You can have a Fire Blast dealing Slashing damage as a sword for melee Strikes, but Flying Flame has to be Fire or Cold, if you took Versatile Blasts.

Ah, my misunderstanding. I was thinking you wanted more options for EB damage types. IMO the kineticist has plenty of EB options already. But it sounds like you want to be able to add or change types for the feat-based impulses. So making your blazing wave count as fire AND cold, or maybe just making it cold on the fly. I haven't thought much about that. Not sure what the balance implications could be, given that feat-taken impulses are a lot stronger than EB.

When using your Blast or Impulse, you select a damage type. It's not "both types at once", it's one or the other.

I honestly don't see a balance issue with multiple accessible damage types aside from "being able to deal with different enemies".

I mean, if a spellcaster can prepare Ignition, Frostbite, Electric Arc and Caustic Blast in case of different resistances, this should be fine with a Kineticist.

[Easl]

JiCi wrote:

When using your Blast or Impulse, you select a damage type. It's not "both types at once", it's one or the other.

Actually casters have that limitation while Kineticists don't! Casters can't add an electricity cantrip to a fire cantrip to get an electricity/fire "both types at once" cantrip. They never get that ability. But kineticists can get a "add two things to get both types at once" ability. That's the L6 feat Two Element Infusion. I got a fire gate, I got an air gate, then I can make a fire/electricity blast with the best damage dice of both, the best range of both, and the special and/or crit effects of both. Pretty sweet for any kineticist who plans to use EB a lot. And note that the feat only says "choose two kinetic elements" not "choose two from separate gates." So if you have just the fire gate but the versatile blasts feat, you can do a fire+cold blast.

Quote:

I mean, if a spellcaster can prepare Ignition, Frostbite, Electric Arc and Caustic Blast in case of different resistances, this should be fine with a Kineticist.

That IS fine with a Kineticist and unless I'm misunderstanding your description, that is exactly what a kineticist already has. What it was designed for, in fact. A kineticist with an air and fire gate always has both their "electric arc" EB and their "ignition" EB prepared in case of different resistances. Impulses are the same way. A kineticist with Solar Detonation and Storm Spiral always has both "prepared" in case of different resistances (and in fact both those impulses do two different types of damage).

[_shredder_]

I would love to see multiple poison damage impulses for wood and earth kineticists in the future. Right now we don't have a single one, they all deal physical damage. Also acid impulses for water and more than one cold damage impulse. Acid and poison magic are so underrepresented in pf2.

[ornathopter]

It'd be nice to get more Earth impulses or damage types, but personally I'd like to see sonic damage earth impulses, like chiming crystals or the vibrations of an earthquake or avalanche. It'd also be neat to get an impulse for petrifying enemies.

[JiCi]

@Easl

Two-Element Infusion only affects your [/i]Blasts[/i], and no other damaging impulses. That's my problem right now. If there was a feat that further expands to impulses, that would be ideal.

_shredder_ wrote:

I would love to see multiple poison damage impulses for wood and earth kineticists in the future. Right now we don't have a single one, they all deal physical damage. Also acid impulses for water and more than one cold damage impulse. Acid and poison magic are so underrepresented in pf2.

ornathopter wrote:

It'd be nice to get more Earth impulses or damage types, but personally I'd like to see sonic damage earth impulses, like chiming crystals or the vibrations of an earthquake or avalanche. It'd also be neat to get an impulse for petrifying enemies.

In an ideal world, that should have been the Blasts' types:

(ELEMENT: starting types -> Versatile Blasts -> Possible upgrade)
* AIR: Slashing or Electricity -> Cold -> Sonic
* EARTH: Piercing or Acid -> Poison -> Sonic
* FIRE: Fire or Piercing -> Cold -> Electricity
* METAL: Slashing or Poison -> Electricity -> Fire
* WATER: Bludgeoning or Cold -> Acid -> Fire
* WOOD: Bludgeoning or Vitality -> Poison -> Acid

My reasoning is...
- how Sonic is powerful, as it lacks resistance, so it would be an advanced pick;
- how a blowtorch is used to cut and pierce stuff;
- how rust is associated with both metal and poison;

[Easl]

JiCi wrote:

@Easl

Two-Element Infusion only affects your [/i]Blasts[/i], and no other damaging impulses. That's my problem right now. If there was a feat that further expands to impulses, that would be ideal.

Ah. I think/hope that we will see more impulses in the future. I also agree with you, shredder, ornithopter and others about having the new impulses hit different saves and types than the current ones. I would bet against seeing a feat that adds new damage types types to existing higher-level impulses. Paizo doesn't seem to like the build-a-bear approach to magic. They go with the more old school "list of discrete spells" approach. It sometimes annoys me, but I think there would probably be some hard to predict balance consequences if they dropped a build-a-bear style magic character in against antagonist monsters that are designed against discrete-spell-using PCs. Fire giant against spell repertoire that was selected two levels ago or daily prep load-out selected with limited knowledge of what they are going to face is one thing. Fire giant against kneticist who picks elements at level 1, 5, 9, etc. is in that same boat. But, Fire giant against dude who can change their poison spell/impulse to a cold spell/impulse during the encounter is a lot less dangerous. It would probably need a HP buff or some other increase to pose the same challenge it was originally inteneded to pose. That is arguably why EB has such a slow growth curve; because it has that on the fly ability to tune to vulnerabilities that everything else (cough except thaumaturge cough) lacks.

[ornathopter]

Maybe rather than feats, they could add kintecist gear with that sort of effect? Some kind of equipment that adds another damage type to your impulses, or that outright replaces one of your damage types when you're attuned to it. So you'd lose access to, say, your wood poison damage but you'd get acid damage until you decided to un-attune and change back. That'd give the GM more discretion on when to hand them out, and you still wouldn't be able to switch types mid-combat.

[moosher12]

I wish Kineticists had a way to use their abilities with their hands full, even if it was a feat tax. I was getting hype to make an air kineticist fan dancer that wielded two fans (not even the weapon fans, just basic fans), to tie into the fan dancer archetype, but I quickly got disillusioned when I realized that I cannot actually dual wield fans, losing access to most of the fan dancer abilities. Fringe case I know. But I wish their was a way to make it work.

[Ravingdork]

moosher12 wrote:

I wish Kineticists had a way to use their abilities with their hands full, even if it was a feat tax. I was getting hype to make an air kineticist fan dancer that wielded two fans (not even the weapon fans, just basic fans), to tie into the fan dancer archetype, but I quickly got disillusioned when I realized that I cannot actually dual wield fans, losing access to most of the fan dancer abilities. Fringe case I know. But I wish their was a way to make it work.

That's a REALLY cool idea!

I'mma gonna' talk to my GM about houseruling such a feat for the archetype, or perhaps making a homebrew weapon rune that allows a kineticist to treat that weapon's hand as free for the purposes of impulses.

[YarinNox]

I would really like to see an eidolon of the following types: imaginary friend, dream, nightmare or boggart.
A nightmare eidolon that had fear-based mechanics and could take the form of the enemy's greatest fear

I would also like to see a kneticist with sound abilities. Things like echolocation, attacks that leave the enemy dizzy and deaf, and sound wave attacks that are able to bounce and echo off walls and surfaces. That would be really cool

A boogeyman psychic that had fear-based mechanics and could take the form or create an illusion of the enemy's greatest fear would be nice too.

A druid with seasonal abilities would be interesting.

[moosher12]

Ravingdork wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

I wish Kineticists had a way to use their abilities with their hands full, even if it was a feat tax. I was getting hype to make an air kineticist fan dancer that wielded two fans (not even the weapon fans, just basic fans), to tie into the fan dancer archetype, but I quickly got disillusioned when I realized that I cannot actually dual wield fans, losing access to most of the fan dancer abilities. Fringe case I know. But I wish their was a way to make it work.

That's a REALLY cool idea!

I'mma gonna' talk to my GM about houseruling such a feat for the archetype, or perhaps making a homebrew weapon rune that allows a kineticist to treat that weapon's hand as free for the purposes of impulses.

If your GM comes up with something, can you let me know what they ruled. Would be easy enough for me to add to my home rule document on my end, and I'm curious what they would chose to do.

[Ravingdork]

moosher12 wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

I wish Kineticists had a way to use their abilities with their hands full, even if it was a feat tax. I was getting hype to make an air kineticist fan dancer that wielded two fans (not even the weapon fans, just basic fans), to tie into the fan dancer archetype, but I quickly got disillusioned when I realized that I cannot actually dual wield fans, losing access to most of the fan dancer abilities. Fringe case I know. But I wish their was a way to make it work.

That's a REALLY cool idea!

I'mma gonna' talk to my GM about houseruling such a feat for the archetype, or perhaps making a homebrew weapon rune that allows a kineticist to treat that weapon's hand as free for the purposes of impulses.

If your GM comes up with something, can you let me know what they ruled. Would be easy enough for me to add to my home rule document on my end, and I'm curious what they would chose to do.

If we come up with anything, we'll let you know.

The Juggler feat would have been a great workaround, had it not been for the last sentence. :(

[Perpdepog]

A rune sounds like a good option, to me. It also opens up all the imagery of shooting fire blasts and lightningbolts out of a sword or spear, which sounds great to me. No idea what level it should be, though.

Easl wrote:

So an early level kineticist is accessing between 1 (Fire only) and 5 (takes weapon infusion, and either dual element or versatile blasts). Kineticists are by no means behind the curve on this and they are very likely ahead of most of their teammates. I can tell you this is true in my play experience, where even starting at level 1 our kineticist was out-flexibility-ing two of the three other PCs in the party. So where is this feeling that you don't get enough damage type choices coming from? You're getting more than most classes.

I'm playing a fire/metal kineticist in an Outlaws of Alkenstar game right now, and can confirm there's lots of versatility. I took Versatile Blasts, so I can dish out cold, electricity, fire, piercing or slashing more or less whenever I feel like. I've been taring up enemies, when I can hit them, because of all the clockwork enemies we're running into and their weakness to electricity.

[pH unbalanced]

moosher12 wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

I wish Kineticists had a way to use their abilities with their hands full, even if it was a feat tax. I was getting hype to make an air kineticist fan dancer that wielded two fans (not even the weapon fans, just basic fans), to tie into the fan dancer archetype, but I quickly got disillusioned when I realized that I cannot actually dual wield fans, losing access to most of the fan dancer abilities. Fringe case I know. But I wish their was a way to make it work.

That's a REALLY cool idea!

I'mma gonna' talk to my GM about houseruling such a feat for the archetype, or perhaps making a homebrew weapon rune that allows a kineticist to treat that weapon's hand as free for the purposes of impulses.

If your GM comes up with something, can you let me know what they ruled. Would be easy enough for me to add to my home rule document on my end, and I'm curious what they would chose to do.

I mean, I can tell you what my house rule would be.

If you have the Weapon Infusion feat, I would allow you to spend an action to create a weapon that you are proficient in that would last until the beginning of your next turn. (So you'd need to hold a fan in one hand, and then with your 3rd action create a second fan that would allow you to use all the reaction feats.)

And then I would make a level 6 or 8 kineticist stance feat (with weapon infusion as a prereq) that would allow you to continuously manifest a Weapon Infusion while in stance, and treat that hand as a free hand for the purpose of kineticist impulses while in stance.

Not sure if Fan Dancer relies on stances -- if so I could definitely see tweaking it so it isn't, but I think making this a stance feat in general helps guard against some problematic combinations.

[moosher12]

That would not work for three reasons:

1. Weapon Infusion already functions as a continuous weapon for practical purposes. You can, for example, manifest an earth attack as a two-handed sledgehammer, if you wanted.

2. The character concept is a pure air kineticist. While they can make a weapon, it misses the visual concept if they cannot use a physical object. As I don't want one real fan and a fake fan made of air. I want two real fans. Due to reason number 1, I'd have just said I was holding one real fan and a fake fan, but that's not what I want in my character concept. I want actual fans. The visual inspiration point was for example Temari, but part of the appeal to the deesign is the fan. And a lot of the design appeal is lost when you lose the prop. A force fan just doesn't quite cut it. And I don't wanna be the one that says, "Oh, the air materializes a wooden object because reasons"

3. I don't even want a weapon like the bladed fans. I want dancing fans, which would be more akin to an instrument, which Weapon Infusion cannot produce performance tools. Just weapons.

[Natan Linggod 327]

I would like options for classes that deal with or draw from Things From Beyond, that don't just involve tentacles and darkness.

I want truly weird, surreal and mind bending options.

Maybe an Inventor subclass based entirely on esoteric math and numerology, using formulas and equations to make their creations work.

A Bard who taps into the Discordant Wailing of Azathoths Flautists to blur the boundary between dream and reality.

etc

[BotBrain]

exequiel759 wrote:

I expect void and aether to become elements at some point since those are explicitly mentioned in Rage of Elements as being elements that other cultures take into account in Golarion. Those are also the only elements that haven't been brought back from PF1e either.

The Tian Xia character's guide also calls out Spirit as an element in Vudra, and relates it to sound waves. That's essentially screaming "Hello! This deals sonic damage!"

If Vudra ever gets the same treatment Tian Xia got, I would be shocked if we don't see spirit as an element in the character guide.

[Easl]

moosher12 wrote:

The character concept is a pure air kineticist. While they can make a weapon, it misses the visual concept if they cannot use a physical object. As I don't want one real fan and a fake fan made of air. I want two real fans.

I take it this is purely for concept reasons? Because mechanically I can't see how it affects you to form fan or fans out of air.

Hmm well if I'm the GM and I don't want to homebrew it, I'd suggest you release a fan (0a), impulse cast boomerang (2a), then interact (1a) to put fan back in hand. Since it doesn't matter (much) where the release goes, I personally think 'throw the fan up in the air, cast boomerang, catch fan' sounds in-theme, cool, part of a fan dance, and a legal interpretation of release/interact.

[moosher12]

Gotta enter GM mode to answer that question. That's a level of shenanigans that if a player tried that with me I'd have them attempt an Acrobatics or Performance check with a DC appropriate for your level per attempt. Also GM side, I'd definitely tell my players that "No, you cannot make anything that's not made out of air out of air." You can get hard air so it looks all spectral and stuff, but you cannot actually make something that looks like anything other than a force construct.

Back to player side, that idea is just... is awkward. You get a fan so you can swish the fan and generate wind from it. Tossing the fan in the air and blowing the wind from your palm kind of defeats the point of the fan.

[pH unbalanced]

moosher12 wrote:

That would not work for three reasons:

1. Weapon Infusion already functions as a continuous weapon for practical purposes. You can, for example, manifest an earth attack as a two-handed sledgehammer, if you wanted.

To be clear, by RAW this is not true. A Weapon Infusion blast only lasts as long as the blast (ie instantaneously). So you cannot, for example, make a Reactive Strike with a Weapon Infusion, or use it to provide flanking.

Not trying to talk you into something that doesn't meet your needs. Just wanting to be clear on how the rules work.

[JiCi]

moosher12 wrote:

That would not work for three reasons:

1. Weapon Infusion already functions as a continuous weapon for practical purposes. You can, for example, manifest an earth attack as a two-handed sledgehammer, if you wanted.

2. The character concept is a pure air kineticist. While they can make a weapon, it misses the visual concept if they cannot use a physical object. As I don't want one real fan and a fake fan made of air. I want two real fans. Due to reason number 1, I'd have just said I was holding one real fan and a fake fan, but that's not what I want in my character concept. I want actual fans. The visual inspiration point was for example Temari, but part of the appeal to the deesign is the fan. And a lot of the design appeal is lost when you lose the prop. A force fan just doesn't quite cut it. And I don't wanna be the one that says, "Oh, the air materializes a wooden object because reasons"

3. I don't even want a weapon like the bladed fans. I want dancing fans, which would be more akin to an instrument, which Weapon Infusion cannot produce performance tools. Just weapons.

I could see reasons why people would want this though...

- Back in P1E, kinetic blasts could NOT benefit from enhancements... at all. They didn't even offer a gauntlet that could do that.

- Also back in P1E, people tried to use the Conductive enhancement, but in reality, that just didn't work at all. In short, the effect had to match the weapon's way of attack, be melee or ranged. Blasts were ranged, so they could only work with ranged weapons. In order to use it with a melee weapon, you needed to use Kinetic Blade and then conduct it through your weapon. However, it became a regular attack, instead of a touch attack.

- Held items can help you to defend yourself.

- Weapon Infusion dissipates after using a Blast. You're left unarmed afterward.

[Easl]

moosher12 wrote:

Back to player side, that idea is just... is awkward. You get a fan so you can swish the fan and generate wind from it. Tossing the fan in the air and blowing the wind from your palm kind of defeats the point of the fan.

You said you wanted to attack with two fans in hands. So I gave you a way to attack with the fans in hand. It costs an extra 1a per round to do it, which I think is reasonable.

-If you just want to "swish fans around" without the attack, then you don't need a modification to the rules to do that.
-If you want pure style effect with the fans while attacking, you also don't need a rules change because that can be accomplished with weapon Infusion looking like a fan.
-If you want to do some consequential combat actions that require both hands AND you want to do a consequential combat action that requires a free hand, then yes you're going to have to spend one or more actions doing hand-use tricks because that makes mechanical sense. There are probably multiple ways to describe that, and they are generally going to cost an action. If you don't like "toss and catch," it could be "drop and pick up," or "put both in one hand and then transfer them back" Putting both things in one hand temporarily during fan or sword dancing is a perfectly normal part of the dance, so IMO it doesn't break the vision of what you're trying to do to have your fan dancer do that.
-Otherwise, what you are really asking for Paizo to simply remove the free hand requirement. Which would have many more consequences to the system than merely letting the rare fan dancers cast boomerang while holding purely decorative fans in both hands.

[Ravingdork]

Mundane, non-weapon fans don't even exist in the game. As such, maybe just consider describing the two fans in your hands as being part of your outfit and that you're training with them is such that they don't occupy your hands.

That is, it's just flavorful description, like how a character's shoes might be green and pointed, or how they might wear ten too many belts. The fans don't really exist as a game mechanic, so why should they penalize you
or hold you back in any way?

If you insist on having an actual mundane, non-weapon fan, then you will either need a house rule, or admit that the archetype is broken as written unless you're willing to use fighting fans.

[moosher12]

Afraid I cannot just do flavor fans.

Many of Fan Dancer's effects require one Fan in each hand. It's not a pure flavor item that you can pretend is there but is not actually there, it's a requirement for effects to trigger Fan Dancer side. If I do that, all Fan Dancer effects related to fans become unusable.

As for fans existing, it's not that the item does not exist, but Pathfinder already gave us the tools for it to exist. the Fan Dancer says you can use any fan, not just a fighting fan, which invites the use of non-weapon fans. Making a fan set item was the easy part actually. Fans are a performance tool for dancing, so a a Musical Instrument can be used as a base with a slight mod from audio to visual stimulus. So I'd just use the price of an instrument for a fan set, upgraded to Virtuoso if I want the Performance bonus.

I do question if free-hand impulses are as broken as some may think. Bare in mind in PF2E, Casting a Spell does not require a free hand, neither in Legacy or Remaster. The requirement is merely to be able to gesture, even allowing you to gesture with an object in hand. So a bard can cast a spell while playing a violin (both hands full), a magus can cast a spell while wearing a sword and shield, and a wizard can cast a spell while carrying a polearm of choice. Additionally, you can jumble these classes and weapons in any order, and they'd be able to Cast a Spell, from Rank 1 through Rank 10. Casting a Spell with one hand free is a 1E'ism that was done away with going into 2E, which is why I question what a Kineticist has that makes their Impulses starkly more dangerous than a Wizard's (or any other spellcaster's) entire repertoire of spells.

Now I can accept that there are aspects of impulses that are potentially stronger than spells, like not having a limited spell list to hold your impulses back. Which is why I would not go as far as ruling a complete override, I think a feat tax is sufficient as the case is niche enough that not all Kineticists benefit from it.

The point of this thread is wishlisting features you'd like. I don't think the requirement NEEDS to be removed, but I am skeptical if a conditional workaround is so powerful it's out of the question. A second look at whether in impulse is truly so much stronger than a spell it needs a free hand while spells do not is worth asking, or at the very least if a feat can be added to make it work more like a spell, even if it's just for one focus item chosen at the time of claiming the feat, but not other items.

But it is a bit disappointing to say "Yeah, I'm imagining a character that likes to dance and perform on stage, flitting around the battlefield with their two fans obscuring their form, and with a swish of their fan, can blow gusts of air at folks to knock them away." But then you realize there is no expression for the idea (What is practically a permanent Slowed 1 effect is not exactly the kind of answer that invites continuation on a concept either.). You cannot be a violinist who can make the waves dance with your music, you cannot bring down a Maul to the ground to make rocks shoot forward at your enemy. You cannot swing a bo staff to make sweeping air blasts. So many flavorful things that would be in tune with the kineticist are simply denied. But, a spellcaster can do all of these sorts of things when Casting a Spell.

[Squiggit]

Easl wrote:

Otherwise, what you are really asking for Paizo to simply remove the free hand requirement. Which would have many more consequences to the system than merely letting the rare fan dancers cast boomerang while holding purely decorative fans in both hands.

It's a shame how often niche, fun concepts get taken out back and torched in the name of preventing some hypothetical cheese.

[Ravingdork]

moosher12 wrote:

Making a fan set item was the easy part actually. Fans are a performance tool for dancing, so a a Musical Instrument can be used as a base with a slight mod from audio to visual stimulus. So I'd just use the price of an instrument for a fan set, upgraded to Virtuoso if I want the Performance bonus.

All instruments require two hands to use though, making it impossible for most characters to wield a pair of instruments simultaneously.

I recommend using the short tool for mundane, non-weapon fans instead. They only require one hand, cost 4 sp, and have L bulk, which lines up with many of the magical fans as well.

[moosher12]

I was treating the pair of fans as a single instrument for the purpose.

Tools are for Crafting, instruments are for Performance, Fans are performance tools, so Instruments work better. Even then, for personal games I don't obligate two hands for all instruments if the individual instrument only needs one hand. Most do of course, but GM overrule does allow me to sanity check that "Of course you don't need two hands to use a harmonica. That'd just be silly."

(Though for personal use, I just made it a Level 1 Infusion Kineticist feat. My GM is a player of mine, and follows my home rules anyway. So I ended up just making a Level 1 class feat that allowed Kineticists to cast their Impulses on the condition their arms are free to make gestures with the held item. Basically, the feat makes it to where if you can Cast a Manipulate Spell, you can use an Impulse.)

[HeHateMe]

Like several others on this thread have mentioned, I'd love to see a Druid class archetype that buffs up untamed form battle forms (at the moment, they're pretty weak) in exchange for wave casting. A more "fighty" Druid.

I'd like to see the Synthesist Summoner become a reality as well. I want the option to merge with my Eidolon and combine our strengths (though obviously there needs to be a tradeoff so Synthesist doesn't outshine every other Summoner build).

Also I'd like to see a wave caster version of the Bard, something similar to Battle Harbinger Cleric. Centered around better weapon and armor proficiencies and faster progression but as the cost of far fewer spell slots.

[StarMartyr365]

I’d like a Psychic Conscious Mind based on sound and vibration.