I'd like to do the unassuming farmboy with a simple quarterstaff who has no magic, but still beats the snot out of trained swordsmen. 2e doesn't have double weapons, so no particular synergy there with fighter or ranger. I thought a gymnast Swashbuckler fit really well (loved the riposte) until I realized that without a free hand, you need a weapon with the trip/shove traits to get panache. I'd also love to be able to disarm too as that just seems to fit the vibe.
Using a monk with a bo staff kind of works and can even give him an unarmored feel, but it's limited to tripping only and the mystical part of the monk seem odd. Or maybe it's just that I have a non-mystical monk already and I didn't want to go down the same path.
War of Immortals includes a fighter/ranger/rogue stance that lets you treat a spear, hammer, or polearm wielded in two hands as sort of a double weapon, as well as some other feats to give spears and polearms some fun tricks. Spear and staff fighting often had a lot in common, historically, and spears were very much a peasant weapon over a lot of times and places, so you maybe could talk a GM into a staff-compatible version?
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I'd like to do the unassuming farmboy with a simple quarterstaff who has no magic, but still beats the snot out of trained swordsmen. 2e doesn't have double weapons, so no particular synergy there with fighter or ranger. I thought a gymnast Swashbuckler fit really well (loved the riposte) until I realized that without a free hand, you need a weapon with the trip/shove traits to get panache. I'd also love to be able to disarm too as that just seems to fit the vibe.
Using a monk with a bo staff kind of works and can even give him an unarmored feel, but it's limited to tripping only and the mystical part of the monk seem odd. Or maybe it's just that I have a non-mystical monk already and I didn't want to go down the same path.
I get how you feel, as a staff enthusiast, Tim. An archetype or class archetype that really focused on using the staff as a weapon is something I wish existed too.
Your idea for a staff Gymnast Swashbuckler can be remedied with the Staff Acrobat Archetype though (the dedication lets you trip or shove with a staff in both hands.
Here's a link to Staff Acrobat on Nethys.
I'd also argue that a non-mystical monk is rather easy to achieve, just don't take any Qi-Spell related feats.
You could flavor your former farm boy as having practiced day in and day out with his staff until he was pulling off deft maneuvers with it so intricate that other monks would ask him "What monastery did you train at?" And when the farm boy answers, 'I didn't,' they'd respond with, 'teach me your ways!'.
Also, Owlcat's RotR game had Quarterstaff Master as a Monk Archetype. Something like that would be interesting.
Your idea for a staff Gymnast Swashbuckler can be remedied with the Staff Acrobat Archetype though (the dedication lets you trip or shove with a staff in both hands.
Here's a link to Staff Acrobat on Nethys.
It would be nice to have a reprint of the archetype to update it with newer weapons (or just all staffs) and get it out of the AP source. I mostly play PFS, so access is an issue, but otherwise, a flexible GM could allow the archetype to work with a whipstaff. Would love a way to do disarms without a free hand, but maybe that's just greedy. I could have even seen these as just swashbuckler feats.
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An Exemplar Class Archetype that gives them a Deity an dtheir spark is a small portion of the deity's actual divine power kinda like a Champion but more offensive.
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Another interesting idea is:
War Wizard
Representing a Wizard who underwent military training of some kind.
They add light armor to their defense, reach Master in unarmored, light armor, unarmed, and simple proficiencies.
They'd also get something similar to the Magus's Twisting Tree hybrid study, allowing them to use magic staves as full weapons.
Mind you, this would come with some trade offs:
They'd only get Master in spellcasting.
They'd have to take the School of Battle Magic school and the Staff Nexus thesis.
Thoughts?
It would be nice to have a reprint of the archetype to update it with newer weapons (or just all staffs) and get it out of the AP source. I mostly play PFS, so access is an issue, but otherwise, a flexible GM could allow the archetype to work with a whipstaff. Would love a way to do disarms without a free hand, but maybe that's just greedy. I could have even seen these as just swashbuckler feats.Your idea for a staff Gymnast Swashbuckler can be remedied with the Staff Acrobat Archetype though (the dedication lets you trip or shove with a staff in both hands.
Here's a link to Staff Acrobat on Nethys.
Oh, I feel you. In fact... I might be planning to create a thread regarding my feelings on how staves seem to get the shaft...
An Exemplar Class Archetype that gives them a Deity and their spark is a small portion of the deity's actual divine power kinda like a Champion but more offensive.
I feel like that idea would require that the Exemplar's weapon ikon must be applicable to their chosen deity.
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I've thought of one:
Thaumatheurge with psychic spells, a.k.a. the Occultist
- Only ONE implement
+ Gets the Occult spell list, or similar
+ Gets special benefits from casting spells after Exploiting Vulnerability
+ Gets Focus Spells, similar to the Occultist in P1E
So... I just had a potentially interesting/horrific idea:
A class archetype for Summoners where they trade in their Eidolon for a magical weapon born from their imagination.
They're proficiency level would be the same as Eidolons with their unarmed strikes... but only for their weapon (which I'll just call an Eidolon weapon), not any similar weapon.Meaning, just because their Eidolon weapon takes the form of a Sword, does not mean the Summoner has Master in swords.
The justification could be that the Eidolon Weapon is actually guiding the Summoner's strikes, hence why the Summoner isn't actually that proficient with weapons.
What do you guys think?
That sounds awesome
Thats basically the Phantom Blade archetype of the 1e Spiritualist.
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So the Battle Herald Class Archetype for the Cleric presents an interesting concept. possibly ways to give us Shifters and other concepts.
Like apply this concept to the Psychic. Increase their unarmored defense justified as "psychic premonitions" give them some weapon training, and you can make a passable jedi.
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Literally ANYTHING for Champions.
I'm starting to feel like I should have rebuilt my PFS champion as a cleric because right now it feels like the champion's narrative space is getting steadily squeezed out of the game - you've got exemplar for the god-adjacent melee beatstick space, guardian for the stop the enemies from beating my friends space, and battle harbinger for the divine gish space; and champions don't even have their full premaster functionality back yet.
It kinda feels like Paizo hates champions and only even still has them in remaster to retain backwards compatibility with premaster.
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An Exemplar Class Archetype that gives them a Deity an dtheir spark is a small portion of the deity's actual divine power kinda like a Champion but more offensive.
The Champion's narrative and game mechanical space is already being stomped on by like 3-4 other classes now without Exemplar just blatantly getting a class archetype that's "I'm you, but better in every way."
Literally ANYTHING for Champions.
I'm starting to feel like I should have rebuilt my PFS champion as a cleric because right now it feels like the champion's narrative space is getting steadily squeezed out of the game - you've got exemplar for the god-adjacent melee beatstick space, guardian for the stop the enemies from beating my friends space, and battle harbinger for the divine gish space; and champions don't even have their full premaster functionality back yet.
It kinda feels like Paizo hates champions and only even still has them in remaster to retain backwards compatibility with premaster.
Champions have some decent higher level feats (though I wish they didn't nerf the crap out of Divine Ally), and can actually invest in a steed/animal companion from 1st level now (bonus points if you take Beastmaster dedication), but I do agree that their lower level feats are lackluster and need more/better feats, as well as a slight boost to the Evil causes.
FIGHTER:
- a feat that grants a THIRD reaction on Reactive Strike, after Tactical Reflexes
- a feat that allows TWO flourishes per round.
- a feat that allows TWO stances per round.
- a feat that allows you to pick between TWO Critical Specialization Effects, like "you select 2 similar weappon groups and and switch effects"
- a feat that allows you to add critical effects beyond 10, such as 1 more effect if exceeded by 15, another additional effect if exceeded by 20, etc
- an alternate feat to Shield Block, if I'm not intenting to use a shield
These points either make no sense or are actually already covered in the class.
1. The 20th level feat Boundless Reprisals gives you a bonus reaction at the start of every turn for any fighter feat or class feature, which only lasts until the end of that turn. This means you can always take at least one (if not 2 or 3) Reactive Strikes against enemies in a given turn, and since it's rare for enemies to trigger more than one Reactive Strike in a turn, you probably won't be using all 3 reactions at once. In my opinion, this is infinitely more powerful than simply having a third bonus reaction (even if in practice it doesn't really play out that way). And if you already have Tactical Reflexes, and Quick Shield Block, you literally already have 4 reactions to work with here when you add this feat.
2. This doesn't work because Flourish feats/abilities are written to be significantly more powerful than other feats/abilities because they can only be done once per round. If you give them the ability to ignore them or remove the trait, this breaks the balance of the game. This is why we didn't see this done with the Flurry Ranger, for example, when their 18th level feat instead gives them a variable version of being able to utilize Twin Takedown 3 times in a row (and their 20th level feat slightly buffing it).
3. Interestingly, this feat already exists, but not for Fighters. The Fuse Stances feat is a 20th level Monk feat, which lets you combine the base effects of 2 Stance feats (as well as any ancillary effects dependent on being in either Stance) so long as they do not conflict in which attack types are available. I don't believe Fighters have enough Stance feats to qualify for this, and it's such a niche feat I don't see many builds that would even take advantage of this anyway, since it's a 20th level feat, and you would be burning a lot of "dead feats" for it to work later.
4. You can't do this because every weapon only fits in one group, by design. You don't have the "This is both a polearm and a club" items anymore. It would be nice if there was a feat that improved their critical specializations, not unlike the Grievous weapon rune, and it wouldn't be unfounded that the Fighter has access to abilities that replicate similar things, such as the Improved Critical feat replicating the Keen rune (and not just on slashing/piercing weapons), or the Weapon Supremacy feat replicating the Speed rune. But that's a completely different effect, and often times that is reserved for higher level feats; I would see a 14th or 16th level feat of this effect, that's for sure.
5. I don't understand the value behind this, because it's not like you can't add all the relevant critical effects when you critically hit somebody. If I have a Flaming Decaying Longsword, you best believe they are taking both the persistent fire damage, persistent void damage, as well as the off-guard condition. The only way that can't be possible is if they are done as a Free Action with the trigger "You critically hit an enemy," and I'm drawing a blank as to how many effects (if any) can't be stacked like this.
6. While this is interesting, I'm not sure how this would be balanced or implemented. It's quite clear that Paizo doesn't want anything more powerful than shields, and if it's less powerful than shields, then I question whether it's even worthwhile to invest in it. I would actually much rather they rebalance the non-Steel/Wooden shields to be more palatable. As it stands, these shields are the only ones worth acquiring simply because the others are either weaker or have too many unavoidable downsides to them.
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Literally ANYTHING for Champions.
I'm starting to feel like I should have rebuilt my PFS champion as a cleric because right now it feels like the champion's narrative space is getting steadily squeezed out of the game - you've got exemplar for the god-adjacent melee beatstick space, guardian for the stop the enemies from beating my friends space, and battle harbinger for the divine gish space; and champions don't even have their full premaster functionality back yet.
It kinda feels like Paizo hates champions and only even still has them in remaster to retain backwards compatibility with premaster.
The Oaths are back, and vastly improved, from my understanding.
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2. This doesn't work because Flourish feats/abilities are written to be significantly more powerful than other feats/abilities because they can only be done once per round. If you give them the ability to ignore them or remove the trait, this breaks the balance of the game. This is why we didn't see this done with the Flurry Ranger, for example, when their 18th level feat instead gives them a variable version of being able to utilize Twin Takedown 3 times in a row (and their 20th level feat slightly buffing it).
Other classes got Flourishes, but I feel like the Fighter should be the ONLY class to use more than one per round.
I mean, a few classes literally got Reactive Strike now, when it was figther-exclusive.
4. You can't do this because every weapon only fits in one group, by design. You don't have the "This is both a polearm and a club" items anymore. It would be nice if there was a feat that improved their critical specializations, not unlike the Grievous weapon rune, and it wouldn't be unfounded that the Fighter has access to abilities that replicate similar things, such as the Improved Critical feat replicating the Keen rune (and not just on slashing/piercing weapons), or the Weapon Supremacy feat replicating the Speed rune. But that's a completely different effect, and often times that is reserved for higher level feats; I would see a 14th or 16th level feat of this effect, that's for sure.
Oh please...
- Polearms and spears- Clubs and hammers
- Swords and knives
- Brawling, shields and flails
- Axes and picks
- Bows, crossbows, slings and firearms
Done.
That would literally save me the trouble is getting a Shifting rune.
5. I don't understand the value behind this, because it's not like you can't add all the relevant critical effects when you critically hit somebody. If I have a Flaming Decaying Longsword, you best believe they are taking both the persistent fire damage, persistent void damage, as well as the off-guard condition. The only way that can't be possible is if they are done as a Free Action with the trigger "You critically hit an enemy," and I'm drawing a blank as to how many effects (if any) can't be stacked like this.
If you could combine critical effects from multiple weapon groups, that would be great. That's my point.
Again, everyone can crit, but have the fighter's critical hits being nastier.
6. While this is interesting, I'm not sure how this would be balanced or implemented. It's quite clear that Paizo doesn't want anything more powerful than shields, and if it's less powerful than shields, then I question whether it's even worthwhile to invest in it. I would actually much rather they rebalance the non-Steel/Wooden shields to be more palatable. As it stands, these shields are the only ones worth acquiring simply because the others are either weaker or have too many unavoidable downsides to them.
So I get stuck with a useless feat if I don't use a shield? Yay...
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2. This doesn't work because Flourish feats/abilities are written to be significantly more powerful than other feats/abilities because they can only be done once per round. If you give them the ability to ignore them or remove the trait, this breaks the balance of the game. This is why we didn't see this done with the Flurry Ranger, for example, when their 18th level feat instead gives them a variable version of being able to utilize Twin Takedown 3 times in a row (and their 20th level feat slightly buffing it).Other classes got Flourishes, but I feel like the Fighter should be the ONLY class to use more than one per round.
I mean, a few classes literally got Reactive Strike now, when it was figther-exclusive.
4. You can't do this because every weapon only fits in one group, by design. You don't have the "This is both a polearm and a club" items anymore. It would be nice if there was a feat that improved their critical specializations, not unlike the Grievous weapon rune, and it wouldn't be unfounded that the Fighter has access to abilities that replicate similar things, such as the Improved Critical feat replicating the Keen rune (and not just on slashing/piercing weapons), or the Weapon Supremacy feat replicating the Speed rune. But that's a completely different effect, and often times that is reserved for higher level feats; I would see a 14th or 16th level feat of this effect, that's for sure.Oh please...
- Polearms and spears
- Clubs and hammers
- Swords and knives
- Brawling, shields and flails
- Axes and picks
- Bows, crossbows, slings and firearmsDone.
That would literally save me the trouble is getting a Shifting rune.
5. I don't understand the value behind this, because it's not like you can't add all the relevant critical effects when you critically hit somebody. If I have a Flaming Decaying Longsword, you best believe they are taking both the...
Two points :
Reactive Strike has never been exclusive to the Fighter class.
The Fighter already crits more often than other classes. Given the impact of crits, I really do not see the need to make the Fighter's crits nastier.
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The Oaths are back, and vastly improved, from my understanding.Literally ANYTHING for Champions.
I'm starting to feel like I should have rebuilt my PFS champion as a cleric because right now it feels like the champion's narrative space is getting steadily squeezed out of the game - you've got exemplar for the god-adjacent melee beatstick space, guardian for the stop the enemies from beating my friends space, and battle harbinger for the divine gish space; and champions don't even have their full premaster functionality back yet.
It kinda feels like Paizo hates champions and only even still has them in remaster to retain backwards compatibility with premaster.
This is about NEW class features, not bringing back stuff that got cut out in favor of other classes.
Other classes got Flourishes, but I feel like the Fighter should be the ONLY class to use more than one per round.
I mean, a few classes literally got Reactive Strike now, when it was figther-exclusive.
Oh please...
- Polearms and spears
- Clubs and hammers
- Swords and knives
- Brawling, shields and flails
- Axes and picks
- Bows, crossbows, slings and firearms
Done.That would literally save me the trouble is getting a Shifting rune.
If you could combine critical effects from multiple weapon groups, that would be great. That's my point.
Again, everyone can crit, but have the fighter's critical hits being nastier.
So I get stuck with a useless feat if I don't use a shield? Yay...
This is coming across as wanting the Fighter to do more than what it already does, and it honestly doesn't need it. It has some powerful class feats, earns more raw class feats compared to any other class in the game, has the highest weapon proficiency compared to every other class in the game, can get Master in all 3 saves with a result grade boost in all 3 types, gets Master Perception for free with an innate Initiative boost, gets Armor Specialization (only Champion, Sentinels, and certain Kineticists can get it otherwise), and can stack all kinds of weapon runes on a given weapon with its feats. Legit, Fighter is the most overpowered martial in the game. The only thing it doesn't do is the most raw damage per hit, but it makes up for it by being a literal juggernaut and having the highest chance to critically hit any given foe, which is a significant DPR boost as it is. "Let's buff fighter class" should be on literally nobody's bingo card right now, that's how powerful it is.
If you mean that Fighter is the only class that got it at 1st level, and now everyone can get it, that's false. The closest one is the Thaumaturge, which can get it as early as 1st level with the Weapon Implement, and even then it doesn't even have the same triggers or disrupting capabilities. Everyone else is either different in some manner (Stand Still for Monks, Disrupt Prey for Rangers), or can't take it at Level 6, and that's assuming their class can even get it at all. It's otherwise faster if you took Fighter dedication and spent a 4th level Class feat on it.
You do realize that Paizo specifically organized weapons in this way purposefully because players had to argue whether X weapon counted as a Y type of weapon group in PF1? Wanting to resort back to PF1 rules for this when this is already a perfectly functional system feels absurd to me. Also, a Shifting rune wouldn't fix the issue you are having anyway, because if you pick one group, and then shift it to another relevant group, you're not benefitting from your improved proficiency. There are also better ways of utilizing different damage types if you invest in them properly.
Fighters already critical enemies significantly more frequently than any other character (besides maybe Gunslingers with their Firearms, but at least their weapons are balanced around being mostly trash unless they critically hit; Fighter weapons are still powerful without crits, and are already extremely nasty when they do critically hit, especially if a Grievous rune is involved). And they have innate abilities and feats that both improve their criticals, as well as increase the rate at which they critically hit. Saying they need more is, again, absurd.
They are not saying they should be brought back, but that they literally have been brought back. They are in divine mysteries. People have read them.This is about NEW class features, not bringing back stuff that got cut out in favor of other classes.The Oaths are back, and vastly improved, from my understanding.Literally ANYTHING for Champions.
I'm starting to feel like I should have rebuilt my PFS champion as a cleric because right now it feels like the champion's narrative space is getting steadily squeezed out of the game - you've got exemplar for the god-adjacent melee beatstick space, guardian for the stop the enemies from beating my friends space, and battle harbinger for the divine gish space; and champions don't even have their full premaster functionality back yet.
It kinda feels like Paizo hates champions and only even still has them in remaster to retain backwards compatibility with premaster.
I was honestly on the fence with the Oaths back in the Premaster; a lot of them felt like they were extremely campaign-dependent (no point in taking the Shining Oath if you almost never fight Undead), or too circumstantial to pick over even just a basic Dedication feat. They're almost as bad as the PF1 Ranger's Favored Enemy feature, or even the current edition's Bane property, in that they're either super powerful/must-haves, or they're useless.
I will wait until the Divine Mysteries book hits the streets, but if the Oaths still operate mostly the way they have previously (again, that's an if), then I'm not holding out hopes that they will be amazing. If, on the other hand, they are significantly changed and instead give some more universal benefits, while adding an additional Edict/Anathema, then it will at least be worth reading them to see if certain build options open up.
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They are not saying they should be brought back, but that they literally have been brought back. They are in divine mysteries. People have read them.This is about NEW class features, not bringing back stuff that got cut out in favor of other classes.The Oaths are back, and vastly improved, from my understanding.Literally ANYTHING for Champions.
I'm starting to feel like I should have rebuilt my PFS champion as a cleric because right now it feels like the champion's narrative space is getting steadily squeezed out of the game - you've got exemplar for the god-adjacent melee beatstick space, guardian for the stop the enemies from beating my friends space, and battle harbinger for the divine gish space; and champions don't even have their full premaster functionality back yet.
It kinda feels like Paizo hates champions and only even still has them in remaster to retain backwards compatibility with premaster.
I was honestly on the fence with the Oaths back in the Premaster; a lot of them felt like they were extremely campaign-dependent (no point in taking the Shining Oath if you almost never fight Undead), or too circumstantial to pick over even just a basic Dedication feat. They're almost as bad as the PF1 Ranger's Favored Enemy feature, or even the current edition's Bane property, in that they're either super powerful/must-haves, or they're useless.
I will wait until the Divine Mysteries book hits the streets, but if the Oaths still operate mostly the way they have previously (again, that's an if), then I'm not holding out hopes that they will be amazing. If, on the other hand, they are significantly changed and instead give some more universal benefits, while adding an additional Edict/Anathema, then it will at least be worth reading them to see if certain build options open up.
This to begin with - Vengeance Oath seems to be the only one that's even remotely universal in applicability, but that seems more like Babby's First Smite than an oath the way the other ones are. The problem is dribbling out old features that were held back from Player Core 2 for space reasons is not the same as introducing new content, and there's been very little post-Remaster new content for Champion players.
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PF2 also just doesn't publish class specific content very often in general. Classes like the Investigator have never gotten a new subclass and only a tiny handful of new character options ever. In general, other than the APG there hasn't been much for any class. If anything the Champion is batting above average here.
Plus like, the Champion is a great class and it's kind of wild to point to that horrible new cleric archetype as evidence of some anti-Champion conspiracy.
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Classes like the Investigator have never gotten a new subclass and only a tiny handful of new character options ever.
They get a new subtype/class archetype in the divine book.
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PF2 also just doesn't publish class specific content very often in general. Classes like the Investigator have never gotten a new subclass and only a tiny handful of new character options ever. In general, other than the APG there hasn't been much for any class. If anything the Champion is batting above average here.
Plus like, the Champion is a great class and it's kind of wild to point to that horrible new cleric archetype as evidence of some anti-Champion conspiracy.
Writers and editors are human beings and make human decisions. If they don't like/don't want a particular character (class) in their world, they're less likely to write for that character. No conspiracy required, just a plot element that may or may not be to a particular group of writers'/editors' taste.
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Writers and editors are human beings and make human decisions. If they don't like/don't want a particular character (class) in their world, they're less likely to write for that character. No conspiracy required, just a plot element that may or may not be to a particular group of writers'/editors' taste.
Right but that's not actually a thing that's happened here.
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A better Battle Harbinger!
Has there been any postulating on what the next class playtest for PF2 will be? I know it won’t happen for another 8ish months, but even trying to guess what the next rule book that will have classes in it is tough for me. A lot of the commonly asked for stuff has come back as archetypes so it is really open to what could be next.
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Nobody is allowed to complain that Paizo hates their favourite class unless it's wizard or oracle.
Also, please find some way to glue the cool premaster oracle benefits back.
On a more positive train of thought, there really is a lot of desire for some kind of 'smite' that is usable by martials with divine influence. I wonder if an archetype that would provide a 'smite' focus spell could be added, that requires divine casting and a focus point pool, that would be suited for Champions and monks but also be usable by other martials who acquire divine focus spellcasting somehow. The feats would give bonuses vs various thematic enemies and/or expand the list of bad things you can inflict.
Isn't sanctification to Holy an appropriate 'smite' vs foes with weakness to Holy ?
This is coming across as wanting the Fighter to do more than what it already does, and it honestly doesn't need it.
Then what's the point of picking the Fighter over the Champion, Monk, Ranger, Gunslinger, Examplar, Barbarian, Thaumatheurge, Magus, Commander, Guardian or even the Kineticist?
Legendary Proficiency? The devs literally forgot to apply this to Advanced Weapons, which would have been the best selling point.
Advanced Weapons? I just mentioned that you cannot get Legendary Proficiency with them unless you pick a feat that treats every Advanced weapon from one group as Martial weapons... because even what you receive at 13th level does nothing. Really Paizo? Not even "Expert in ONE Advanced Weapon of your choice"?
Reactive Strike? The Barbarian, Champion and Swashbuckler can get it via a feat, the Thaumatheurge via the Weapon Implement and the Marshal grants it as an archetype. Other classes may get it as well. Sure, you get Tactical Reflexes, but as an optional feat, NOT as a baked-in class feature that upgrades it for free. I swear, Tactical Reflexes is the new Weapon Specialization feat in P2E.
Shield Block? Again, what if I do NOT want to use a shield? It would have been better if shield-less fighters could use Shield feats using Parry weapons, gauntlets or such.
Archetyping? Everyone and their mothers are using the Free Archetype rule. If that specific rule was applied only to the Fighter all the time, whether you use it or not, then it would be better.
As much as you can defend the class's customization aspect, it lacks a clean direction and class features that I cannot get elsewhere.
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The Fighter's direction is they are the best at hitting with their weapons - and they have a wide number of feats to build around fighting styles or avenues to use your chosen weapons.
They are a deliberately 'simple' class with a defined niche that has lots of avenues to build a character via Feats, and even with all the other martials that are released, they are still one of the strongest martials.
Reactive Strike and Shield Block are also such silly things to complain about - Fighters get Reactive Strike for free from level 1, everyone else has to spend a Feat to get it, and it comes online much later, and Shield Block is not something you have to choose to take, it's there if you want it. It's not like its taking up space for something else.
The point in choosing to play a Fighter is because you want to play a Fighter. The same reason someone picks any class, I imagine.
...and Shield Block is not something you have to choose to take, it's there if you want it. It's not like its taking up space for something else.
Ever hear of class design power budgets?
It's totally taking up space that could have been used for a more versatile option.
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...and Shield Block is not something you have to choose to take, it's there if you want it. It's not like its taking up space for something else.Ever hear of class design power budgets?
It's totally taking up space that could have been used for a more versatile option.
And, what option specifically - and I mean, very specifically - would that be? For that matter, the Druid also gets it, and so does the Inventor, and the Exemplar, and so on - so what would those options be? Since, you know, plenty of concepts from those classes don't use shields, either.
...but I suspect you're not actually being serious, hence the alias.
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...and Shield Block is not something you have to choose to take, it's there if you want it. It's not like its taking up space for something else.Ever hear of class design power budgets?
It's totally taking up space that could have been used for a more versatile option.
And, what option specifically - and I mean, very specifically - would that be? For that matter, the Druid also gets it, and so does the Inventor, and the Exemplar, and so on - so what would those options be? Since, you know, plenty of concepts from those classes don't use shields, either.
...but I suspect you're not actually being serious, hence the alias.
Shield Block is a general feat that everyone can pick, but not everyone wants to risk breaking a shield in combat.
If Shield Block was expanded for other shield-like items, again like Parry weapons, gauntlets and such, but for specific classes, that would have been better.
...and Shield Block is not something you have to choose to take, it's there if you want it. It's not like its taking up space for something else.Ever hear of class design power budgets?
It's totally taking up space that could have been used for a more versatile option.
Such as? Unless we are suggesting the class should get a free General feat at 1st level, there really isn't much that can apply here, and the Fighter chassis seriously doesn't need more help.
I do agree that the ability to block with a shield being locked behind a feat is not very well designed, especially since that doesn't apply to things like the Shield cantrip. It should just be a basic activity available to all characters.
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This is coming across as wanting the Fighter to do more than what it already does, and it honestly doesn't need it.Then what's the point of picking the Fighter over the Champion, Monk, Ranger, Gunslinger, Examplar, Barbarian, Thaumatheurge, Magus, Commander, Guardian or even the Kineticist?
Legendary Proficiency? The devs literally forgot to apply this to Advanced Weapons, which would have been the best selling point.
Advanced Weapons? I just mentioned that you cannot get Legendary Proficiency with them unless you pick a feat that treats every Advanced weapon from one group as Martial weapons... because even what you receive at 13th level does nothing. Really Paizo? Not even "Expert in ONE Advanced Weapon of your choice"?
Reactive Strike? The Barbarian, Champion and Swashbuckler can get it via a feat, the Thaumatheurge via the Weapon Implement and the Marshal grants it as an archetype. Other classes may get it as well. Sure, you get Tactical Reflexes, but as an optional feat, NOT as a baked-in class feature that upgrades it for free. I swear, Tactical Reflexes is the new Weapon Specialization feat in P2E.
Shield Block? Again, what if I do NOT want to use a shield? It would have been better if shield-less fighters could use Shield feats using Parry weapons, gauntlets or such.
Archetyping? Everyone and their mothers are using the Free Archetype rule. If that specific rule was applied only to the Fighter all the time, whether you use it or not, then it would be better.
As much as you can defend the class's customization aspect, it lacks a clean direction and class features that I cannot get elsewhere.
Better feats, proficiencies, scaling, and flavor compared to those classes. Plus, it's almost stupid easy to play while still putting up amazing numbers. Those other classes are significantly harder to plan around, or have inherent weaknesses. Like, the only "weakness" a Fighter has is against non-Fear based Will Saves (of which Fear effects are a very common form of Will Saves).
Advanced Weapons are mostly a trap, which is sadly a holdover from PF1's Exotic Weapons. Very few builds utilized them in PF1, and very few builds utilize them in PF2, simply because taking feats for very little benefit is almost never worth it. There are maybe one or two weapons where it is worthwhile, but it's not worth the feats for them most of the time. But if Paizo actually made Advanced Weapons truly, you know, Advanced, I would understand their reasoning behind delaying Advanced Weapon progression, otherwise it's just overcautious balancing.
Again, like the Fighter absolutely needs that feature baked into its class. It's solid for a large amount of builds, but Archer Fighters definitely don't need it, and will probably take something else.
There isn't a way for that to work, and even if you did find a way, it will be purposefully worse (as if it isn't already), and the only thing worse than broken/destroyed shields are broken/destroyed weapons.
I play with 3 groups, and we only do a bonus 2nd level dedication feat; just because it's popular doesn't make it the baseline nor the system's assumption. At best you can make that claim for APs designed around it, but again, that doesn't mean every other game plays the exact same way.
If anything, I find it harder to build for other classes compared to Fighter. A lot of their builds are really defined by feats requiring specific loadouts or weapon types, which you can identify with maybe a couple minutes of reading their feats.
I think we can agree that weapon groups are bad for class fantasy.
It was a bad decision to tie them to a single type of item, ("SWORDS!!!!") instead being associated with a holistic martial style ("I'm a desert nomad, so I'm good with the sword, spear, and the bow; this is my friend the sea raider with proficiency in the axe, shield, and polearm").
Trying different stuff is the fun in RPGs, and siloing players so much is a minus.
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I think we can agree that weapon groups are bad for class fantasy.
It was a bad decision to tie them to a single type of item, ("SWORDS!!!!") instead being associated with a holistic martial style ("I'm a desert nomad, so I'm good with the sword, spear, and the bow; this is my friend the sea raider with proficiency in the axe, shield, and polearm").
Trying different stuff is the fun in RPGs, and siloing players so much is a minus.
Except the game design severely punishes carrying around numerous types of weapons, nor is it common practice to walk around with an armory of weapons. Even one back-up weapon is more than likely a waste of gold and won't usually be more efficient than simply sticking with your main weapon and suffering the penalties. It's just more pronounced for Fighters due to proficiency discrepancies.
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I think we can agree that weapon groups are bad for class fantasy.
It was a bad decision to tie them to a single type of item, ("SWORDS!!!!") instead being associated with a holistic martial style ("I'm a desert nomad, so I'm good with the sword, spear, and the bow; this is my friend the sea raider with proficiency in the axe, shield, and polearm").
Trying different stuff is the fun in RPGs, and siloing players so much is a minus.
Extremely easy to homebrew then
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Imma just say it again: a new class archetype for the Druid to turn them into shifters who get most of their utility from a huge amount of slots for shapeshifting spells, but bounded spell casting on the rest of their spells.
Delving into this, I first thought that would be great with a boost to Battle Forms. But then you have a strong frontliner with top level spells.
Best then IMO, and with all due respect, to create wholecloth a Shifter class and use the Druid MC for those who want some Primal spells.
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Frankly I agree, but usually when I suggest that people tell me it's just an Archetype so...
I would want the Shifter class to be wholly focused on shapeshifting, not to a single specific shape, but to any shape. THOUGH I had thought of a case where you have a few select forms that you know so well you get special bonuses to pretending to be.
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My dream shifter is not too dissimilar to kineticist, a wealth of feats to pick from representing different aspects of animals. You can grab claws, a poisoned tail, etc as well as ganing access to being able to fully shapeshift.
I don't expect this to happen given how much work kineticist was, but if I could wave a wand, this is what I would do.
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I think exemplar gives us a good roadmap as to how such a class would be made, a few different shifted abilities granting a passive benefit that come with an activated ability, perhaps requiring that the bodypart be re-shifted, living in the space between kineticist and exemplar.My dream shifter is not too dissimilar to kineticist, a wealth of feats to pick from representing different aspects of animals. You can grab claws, a poisoned tail, etc as well as ganing access to being able to fully shapeshift.
I don't expect this to happen given how much work kineticist was, but if I could wave a wand, this is what I would do.
I really like that! As long as shifter's focus is on moving between multple forms, both fully shapeshifted and partially shapeshifted I'd be happy. More beast boy, less wolverine, you know?