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I just want to point out that in those examples you gave a single shot is deadly, whereas in Starfinder you can soak a lot of shots and it's very much rare to see a one-shot-one-kill. The mechanics tell the story of a world in which someone can reasonably expect to run up on a ranged enemy and survive.
There's also plenty of heavy armor examples in media of close quarters combat (Warhammer 40K). Theoretically the melee Soldier should be able to do that, and if it can't then that's a problem.
The Solarian might be on the squishy side, based on what I'm hearing from other playtesters here, and they should probably get some more gap closers and mobility.
So, flashy and fast, slow and steady, and sneaky are all *supposed* to be options I believe, and it's up to us playtesters to provide feedback to ensure that they are.
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TTRPG game rules =/= reality simulator.
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Also, battles in real life tend to happen in big open fields, or wide open streets. A non-trivial number of starfinder are likely to take place in cramped starship corridors or in mazes of crowded hive-like buildings (like the walled city), where an "Action Hero" soldier may inadvertently mow down a dozen civilians with their automatic fire.
Also, magical healing at range is a thing, so if your friend gets shot charging the enemy, you can heal them, and then they can go to town on unprepared ranged fighters.
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This game has a level 9 spell, Atomic Blast, it is quite literally dropping a Nuke but as a spell. It deals a total of 10d12 damage, for an average of 65 damage, and being a level 9 spell is generally first available at level 17.
A Vesk Soldier who went hard on Con (Every possible bonus at level 1, one bonus at every advancement level, and possibly an Artificial Immortalizer since they're a level 17 item) has a total of 282 HP (10 Ancestral, 170 Soldier, 102 Con Bonus). And as we know, you are operating at full effectiveness until you lose your last Hit Point. So, even assuming they Fail (but don't Crit Fail) every save, this Vesk can, on average, take four nukes to the face without even being slowed down.
Heck, a Skittermander (6 Ancestral HP) Operative (8 HP/Level) with a moderate +2 Con, at level 17 will have 176 HP, and with the higher Dex focus of an Operative will be a lot more likely to pass the Atomic Blast Reflex save for half damage. But even still can take two nukes to the face without slowing down. Three if they succeed even a single save.
So what's Starfinder's justification for why Melee is still viable in a sci-fi setting? Because your bullets won't stop them getting to you.
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I think a lot of people have missed OP's point completely. They're not asking for Starfinder to be realistic, they're asking what it takes for a melee-focused combatant to be effective in a world where everyone fights with guns, citing examples that are very much not realistic. In my opinion, there are two crucial factors that make melee combat viable in a primarily ranged environment:
Notice how all of OP's examples line up with this: traditional soldiers in Dune have shields that block ranged attacks, so they can safely enter melee combat, and slow blades are the most reliable way of penetrating shields. Jedi and Sith can deflect gunfire and sometimes move at super-speed, allowing them to safely get into a range where they can slice their foes with lightsabers that cut through most armor like a knife through hot butter. Assassins in Cyberpunk can make themselves invisible, move into melee range undetected, and kill enemies before they even know they're there. Every single one of these characters has the means of approach, and the payoff for getting into melee.
So let's talk about the Solarian, because this conversation is very much about the Solarian: does the class have the means of approach? Well, not really. At most early levels, they move about as fast as anyone else, and are only slightly more durable than your Mystic or Witchwarper, except they have to spend their turns exposing themselves as they move into range. One subclass can pull enemies in, but the pull is short-ranged and not especially reliable, whereas the other subclasses lack any gapclosers at 1st level. Does the class have the payoff at melee range? I'd say mostly, yeah, but that is threatened by classes like the Operative, who can start dealing more damage right away from a much safer distance (and behind cover). If I wanted to be the class that deals the most damage, I'd pick an Operative, and if I wanted to be the class that deals the most damage in melee range, I'd still pick the Operative, because unlike the Solarian, the class has the speed and feats to close gaps much more effectively.
In Pathfinder, this isn't a huge problem, because martial classes are generally melee by default, most enemies are melee, and the ranged enemies out there can't do things like fly at low level. At the levels where they can, the party is more than well-equipped to handle them, not just collectively but individually as well. It is therefore generally assumed that any given party member is going to naturally have decent target access to the enemy they're fighting, and is going to be more effective in melee than at range unless they specifically build for it. In Starfinder, the situation is reversed: with the sole exception of the Solarian, every class is ranged by default, most enemies are ranged, and those ranged enemies can fly as early as level 1. The guarantee of good target access holds for every other class, whose mechanics cater to the use of ranged weapons, spells, or both, but not the Solarian, who has only a tiny handful of abilities that can affect a target beyond 30 feet (this is, by the way, more restrictive than Pathfinder martial classes, who all have 1st-level feats that let them make good use of ranged weapons when they're not innately equipped to fight from range already). Thus, whatever special things the Solarian needs to be an effective melee combatant in a gun-centric world, they likely ought to have it. Expecting them to just use a gun all the time, or the gun-like ranged backup attack they have right now, is a cop-out.
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Atomic Blast will stop them from getting to you because you’ll be blind for 1 minute.
Actually now I’m wondering if there’s a Nanite hypo pen that automatically removes blindness and at what level. Might explain all the long term dazzle and blind effects.
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I've been fiddling with character concepts* for the last week or so and have some observations:
1) Starfinder has a "ranged meta" (as mentioned in the Playtest Rulebook). Simply charging across open ground to attack opponents using ranged weapons in melee is a horrible idea; move from cover to cover (usually pretty common in modern/futuristic environments) until the character can get close. The playtest solarian "can create and maintain all three different manifestations" when attuned, so use the Solar Shot action with the solar flare manifestation while moving from cover to cover until getting in melee using the solar weapon.
2) The available 1st level solarian feats include Solar Shield (+1 AC when raised and can be used for the Shield Block reaction; Shield Block works against ranged attacks, not just melee attacks, doing physical damage) and Stellar Rush (Stride twice with a +10 ft bonus to speed).
3) Take the Shield Block general feat (human with General Training at 1st or any ancestry at 3rd [probably one that has an ancestry feat providing a speed increase, such as Hyper for a skittermander]) and use one of the shields in the equipment section.
4) At 2nd level, the Solar Rampart feat grants proficiency in heavy armor.
In short, the solarian has ways to "survive" (and contribute) until they can do their thing in melee combat.
*- one of them a skittermander solarian
One of the other character concepts I've been fiddling with is a kasatha/prismeni soldier (action hero) with a little bit of melee switch-hitting (machine gun and cryopike): Whirling Swipe at 1st, Shot on the Run at 2nd, Quick Swap at 4th, Double Draw (ancestry) at 5th.
One other "meta" to keep in mind: Starfinder 2 is based on Pathfinder 2. Overspecializing in a single "thing" in PF2 is counterproductive because of the way the system works.
I've been fiddling with character concepts* for the last week or so and have some observations:
1) Starfinder has a "ranged meta" (as mentioned in the Playtest Rulebook). Simply charging across open ground to attack opponents using ranged weapons in melee is a horrible idea; move from cover to cover (usually pretty common in modern/futuristic environments) until the character can get close. The playtest solarian "can create and maintain all three different manifestations" when attuned, so use the Solar Shot action with the solar flare manifestation while moving from cover to cover until getting in melee using the solar weapon.
Solar Shot has a max (not increment) range of 15 or 30 so it’s not very helpful. Use a rifle (free hand solar weapon) or pistol with decent increment.
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Pathfinder 2e is supposed to be a teamwork game, I don't see Covering Fire and Harrying Fire actions in the Playtest book or the PF2e Player Core. In SF1e both of these actions could be use to help a melee character cross an open field and are available for anyone to use at any level. There is a 6th-level covering fire feat for the soldier in the playtest book.
Smoke grenades in the playtest book work differently than they did in SF1e the SF2e smoke grenades give cover. If you have to cross a 100' open field a grenade launcher can help get cover downfield to run to. At higher levels, a grenade launcher can get flash grenades to the other side to dazzle the opponents so they can't see the melee character running across the field. Spells with enough range could be used similarly too.
If you can't run all the way in one round drop prone to get +4 to your AC against ranged attacks. Crawl to stay prone.
Don't charge until at least some of the opponents are down.
Call in an artillery strike. Not a typical option the PCs can take on their own but it has been an option in at least one SFS scenario.
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In short, the solarian has ways to "survive" (and contribute) until they can do their thing in melee combat.
Surviving is only one part of the problem, and as pointed out by a commenter who otherwise thinks the Soldier's gapclosing abilities are fine, Solar Shot is incredibly limited in its range. It is also worth noting that neither Stellar Rush nor the Solarian's base abilities will help you if your target is, say, flying or atop a tall vantage point. I would also not expect the Solarian to need to constantly Drop Prone and Stand up just to get within range, because not only is that not terribly effective or contributive in and of itself, constantly flopping to the ground just to be able to do your job in combat is so pathetic I really don't think it should be the default expected behavior of a solar knight.
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If you can't run all the way in one round drop prone to get +4 to your AC against ranged attacks. Crawl to stay prone.
Unfortunately, taking 2 actions, one to drop prone and one to take cover only gets you a net +2 bonus to AC (possibly less if you're already getting circumstance bonuses to AC). Prone makes you off-guard, and thus includes a -2 circumstance penalty to AC, and Take Cover while prone provides a +4 circumstance bonus to AC, for a net of only +2 versus ranged ttacks, and -2 versus melee.
I'd suggest if you want to charge across the field, you invest in a 25 credit Commercial Carbon Shield, and use the Raise a Shield action for +2 circumstance bonus to AC, followed by 2 Strides. This uses fewer actions, provides the same net bonus, doesn't activate anything reliant on off-guard, and also provides AC while you're moving in case of reactions or prepared actions.
Truth be told I was more interested in the thematics than anything though I am not happy with the mecanics.
What do we want our scifi melee fighter to be like and how do qe want to differentiate there playstle for them pathfinder 2e classes to support the new ranged meta.
If a solarian functions just like a big standard pathfinder martial with a lasersword then it doesn't really add much if you can play with pathfinder classes.
So I would like to see a melee starfinder character play different and be adapted to in many possible different ways the new meta.
Give them a reaction to deflect energy weapons back at enemies with their cool gravity/ energy sword, give them some teleportation or celerity or something. Make them the master of forcefields or give them some shield feats that interfere with reactions. Basically do something in the class to agnowledge the new meta other than give them a short ranged inaccurate pee shooter.
Solarians do have stuff like this - lots of their riders on feats/abilities deal with manipulating cover either in regards to yourself or enemies, or AoE/crowd control stuff. Flicker Strike gives them a teleport, too.
They get quite a lot of it, actually, and you can pick feats for the type of CC or whatever you might want.
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If you can't run all the way in one round drop prone to get +4 to your AC against ranged attacks. Crawl to stay prone.Unfortunately, taking 2 actions, one to drop prone and one to take cover only gets you a net +2 bonus to AC (possibly less if you're already getting circumstance bonuses to AC). Prone makes you off-guard, and thus includes a -2 circumstance penalty to AC, and Take Cover while prone provides a +4 circumstance bonus to AC, for a net of only +2 versus ranged ttacks, and -2 versus melee.
That's a lot of actions, in SF1e dropping prone was a swift action and gave you the full benefit and the attack penalty was only to melee attacks. Is there a third action to get comfortable?
If you crawl while you are prone do you have to take another action to hunker down again?
So, obvious Jedi/Sith inspiration aside, the Solarian is a class that incorporates vast cosmic forces into their playstyle, specifically the power of light and gravity, burning stars and inescapable black holes. To me, that suggests incredible speed (lightspeed, in fact), AoE effects, and various exotic forms of damage and crowd control, making a total package that has no real equivalent in Pathfinder. Some of these effects, like the AoE damage and crowd control, are already in the class's core features. Others, like the class's speed, are not, at least not early enough for them to count where it really matters. If those were made core at level 1, rather than the extraneous Solar Shot and Solar Nimbus features that I think are only secondary to the class's fantasy, that would also satisfy the mechanical considerations for the class to function in melee as well as fulfil its thematic needs.
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I think a nice solution (for solarians at least) could be that, for example, graviton-attuned effects delved a little more into forced movement. For example, a succesful graviton-attuned solar shot could pull the target closer 10 feet or 20 feet on a critical success, as if the solarian were a black hole that took the target into its orbit. A feat could even make it so for the target to move away from the solarian could be difficult terrain too.
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The effects of Take Cover last until you move from your space or make an attack, so if you're crawling along the ground you do have to spend an action to Take Cover every turn. And crawling is 5 feet per action, so doing this you're moving 10 feet a round unless you take the Nimble Crawl acrobatics feat.If you can't run all the way in one round drop prone to get +4 to your AC against ranged attacks. Crawl to stay prone.Unfortunately, taking 2 actions, one to drop prone and one to take cover only gets you a net +2 bonus to AC (possibly less if you're already getting circumstance bonuses to AC). Prone makes you off-guard, and thus includes a -2 circumstance penalty to AC, and Take Cover while prone provides a +4 circumstance bonus to AC, for a net of only +2 versus ranged ttacks, and -2 versus melee.
That's a lot of actions, in SF1e dropping prone was a swift action and gave you the full benefit and the attack penalty was only to melee attacks. Is there a third action to get comfortable?
If you crawl while you are prone do you have to take another action to hunker down again?
Trying to crawl across a 100' field 10' at a time might also trigger the plot armor condition (your opponent chooses to attack anyone else) when your opponent realizes it will take you 10 rounds to make a melee attack.
Considering the biggest Paizo maps are 230 x 150 feet the best solution for getting across the map quick shouldn't be running, in a high tech area it should be find a vehicle. Although SF1e had vehicles they were underused.
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Solar Shot has a max (not increment) range of 15 or 30 so it’s not very helpful. Use a rifle (free hand solar weapon) or pistol with decent increment.I've been fiddling with character concepts* for the last week or so and have some observations:
1) Starfinder has a "ranged meta" (as mentioned in the Playtest Rulebook). Simply charging across open ground to attack opponents using ranged weapons in melee is a horrible idea; move from cover to cover (usually pretty common in modern/futuristic environments) until the character can get close. The playtest solarian "can create and maintain all three different manifestations" when attuned, so use the Solar Shot action with the solar flare manifestation while moving from cover to cover until getting in melee using the solar weapon.
Fair enough. Looking more closely as Solar Shot, it's the equivalent of a one action cantrip without the concentrate and manipulate traits instead of the SF1 solar flare ranged weapon equivalent. Maybe increasing the range to 20 ft or 40 ft would help.
In short, the solarian has ways to "survive" (and contribute) until they can do their thing in melee combat.Surviving is only one part of the problem, and as pointed out by a commenter who otherwise thinks the Soldier's gapclosing abilities are fine, Solar Shot is incredibly limited in its range. It is also worth noting that neither Stellar Rush nor the Solarian's base abilities will help you if your target is, say, flying or atop a tall vantage point.
It's not as if other classes have "base abilities" that help against enemies that are "flying or atop a tall vantage point," either. There are ancestry/class feats, equipment, or spells that can help; just like other characters. I find it slightly dishonest to make the enemy that is "flying or atop a tall vantage point" as the baseline evaluation standard for the "effectiveness" of the solarian.
It's not as if other classes have "base abilities" that help against enemies that are "flying or atop a tall vantage point," either. There are ancestry/class feats, equipment, or spells that can help; just like other characters. I find it slightly dishonest to make the enemy that is "flying or atop a tall vantage point" as the baseline evaluation standard for the "effectiveness" of the solarian.
Of course they do; every other class is built to fight from range by default. Asking for Solarian players to only pick Barathus to not be dysfunctional in melee combat early on does not strike me as good design whatsoever.
I find it slightly dishonest to make the enemy that is "flying or atop a tall vantage point" as the baseline evaluation standard for the "effectiveness" of the solarian.
I find it dishonest not to, because these are enemies you can encounter multiple times in the scenarios we were given. Whether you like it or not, a Solarian is going to be encountering ranged, flying enemies at level 1, and if they have no adequate means of dealing with those, then the class is not fit for purpose.
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I was thinking about this, gap closing is just a matter of speed ad movement oriented action compression-- a lot of the PF melee classes can do it well already if they're conscious of it when building their character, tools like sudden charge, which effectively let you move three times and launch an attack are key here, and then it just gets better as fast movement class features, boots of bounding and such, or beastmaster type stuff for a mount come online.
The key is that doing it on a Starfinder class should require less preplanning, I'd replace Nimbus Surge entirely in the Solarion's Base chassis with Stellar Rush from the list of level 1 feat-- let your nimbus allow you to slip through space-time to go fast or take on some of the speed qualities of light, the extra four squares of movement would do a lot and you'd almost always double move as a gap closer anyway-- and as far as I can tell, every subclass is meant to be close range.
Meanwhile, the Operative and the Soldier both need gap closing feats as level 1 feat options along the lines of sudden charge to support their melee options, and ideally, we need a base armor upgrade that can offer an item bonus to speed to go with the level 1 armor upgrade slots. I suggest they be themed as hover rollerblades like shadow the hedgehog.
As for flight, I'd be tempted to just drop the level of the base jetpack upgrade-- if you play a flying ancestry you don't have to worry about managing it against other upgrades.
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We don't have vehicles in the playtest, but here's a flying skateboard and mother cycle available at 1st level from SF1e. Even if the PCs don't own one there are something that could be found in a city setting.
Wingboard
Item Level 1; Price 900
Tiny air vehicle (1 ft. wide, 3 ft. long)
Speed 40 ft., full 100 ft., 22 mph (fly)
EAC 11; KAC 12; Cover none
HP 12 (6); Hardness 4
Attack (Collision) 1d4 (DC 16)
Modifiers +2 Athletics, –3 attack (–6 at full speed)
Playing a Solarion suffer would be pretty epic.
Goblin Junk Cycle
Item Level 1; Price 425
Medium land vehicle (5 ft. wide, 5 ft. long, 2 ft. high)
Speed 15 ft., full 250 ft., 28 mph
EAC 10; KAC 11; Cover none
HP 6 (5); Hardness 5
Attack (Collision) 2d4 B (DC 9)
Modifiers –1 Piloting, -2 attack (–3 at full speed)
Systems unstable engine;
Special Abilities Unstable Engine (Ex) Once the junkcycle becomes broken, its engine explodes in 1d4 rounds (even if it’s been wrecked), dealing 3d6 fire damage to anyone riding the vehicle and 1d6 fire damage to anyone within 10 feet (Reflex DC 8 half). Proof that the inventor class is used by space goblins in Starfinder.
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It's not as if other classes have "base abilities" that help against enemies that are "flying or atop a tall vantage point," either. There are ancestry/class feats, equipment, or spells that can help; just like other characters. I find it slightly dishonest to make the enemy that is "flying or atop a tall vantage point" as the baseline evaluation standard for the "effectiveness" of the solarian.Of course they do; every other class is built to fight from range by default. Asking for Solarian players to only pick Barathus to not be dysfunctional in melee combat early on does not strike me as good design whatsoever.
I find it slightly dishonest to make the enemy that is "flying or atop a tall vantage point" as the baseline evaluation standard for the "effectiveness" of the solarian.I find it dishonest not to, because these are enemies you can encounter multiple times in the scenarios we were given. Whether you like it or not, a Solarian is going to be encountering ranged, flying enemies at level 1, and if they have no adequate means of dealing with those, then the class is not fit for purpose.
Speaking from experience, a Barathu Solarian is a bad choice, at least at level 1. Their land speed is misprinted and is intended to be 5ft. a 5ft speed is not useful for anything. And their fly speed is only 20ft. This means that at base they are worse at closing gaps than most other ancestries. Another downside of not having a functional land speed is that they do not benefit from anything that gives a bonus to speed, as that only applies to land speed unless otherwise specified. And they cannot use stellar rush (or most other action compression abilities) because those only let you stride, not fly.
I strongly believe that the solarian should be designed in a way that they don't need external weapons. But as written they cannot function without buying some kind of weapon with a ranged increment.
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Speaking from experience, a Barathu Solarian is a bad choice, at least at level 1. Their land speed is misprinted and is intended to be 5ft. a 5ft speed is not useful for anything. And their fly speed is only 20ft. This means that at base they are worse at closing gaps than most other ancestries. Another downside of not having a functional land speed is that they do not benefit from anything that gives a bonus to speed, as that only applies to land speed unless otherwise specified. And they cannot use stellar rush (or most other action compression abilities) because those only let you stride, not fly.I strongly believe that the solarian should be designed in a way that they don't need external weapons. But as written they cannot function without buying some kind of weapon with a ranged increment.
I'm in agreement, but right now, a mediocre fly Speed is still better than no fly Speed at all on a class that has no means of getting into melee range of flying or similarly hard-to-reach enemies. I also do think Stellar Rush and similar feats ought to be written in the same way as other 2e movement feats, where they let you use other movement types if you have them, and that would let Barathus actually interact with those.
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Science fiction and science fantasy is way more about melee combat than is realistic, and Starfinder should be especially so. In Star Trek, it's Kirkfu against a vesk, err, um, gorn, captain Micheal's insane martial arts, or Worf with a batleth. In starwars its Jedi, and bounty hunters, and arena fights against monsters. In Dune, its knife fights with shields. In Guardians of the Galaxy, there are oodles of superpowered fights. In fire fly, there is probably as much melee combat as gunplay, with Mel punching people and kicking them into engine intakes, and River's super powers.
In starfinder, since you have all sorts of monsters that are going to get up close and claw/bite/trample/squish/absorb you, melee combat should be a big part of a fight. Especially since players love to fight in melee. It is very satisfying to split a void zombie in half with a doshka.
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It's wild to me the thought terminating cliches of "such and such is fantasy/fiction and doesn't haven't to be realistic" still turns up. Fiction doesn't operate wholely divorced from reality and we are dealing with a game system. There has to be a reason you can get into people's face and attack them and not be turned to swiss cheese. Both from a mechanics standpoint and a thematic one. Frankly guns are cool and should reign supreme and melee combatants need some way to be *extra* to survive and thrive
Is there another way to be an effective melee combatant in the new ranged meta and how have you seen melee combat play out ?
The same way you are a good ranged combatant in a melee meta: By being so important in the good situations that noone will care about your lack of contribution during the other situations.
Lacking a melee combatant able to block the enemies is a big liability. If you face high reach enemies with Reactive Strike your party is very much doomed to TPK. So the question of the "role" of the Solarian is rather clear: You are the guy who gonna save the day during melee combats.
For ranged combat, people are missing a very important detail: Enemies may be the ones who need to close in with the party. Actually, if your casters are not crappy, most ranged combat will be a breeze: Ranged combat low damage output means that healers will maintain the party easily and the best counter to archers are Fireballs. So the Solarian role will be to pick the enemies that get to close range. Trying to get to the other side of the battlefield is suicidal and useless.
Now, I agree that being half useless during most fights is not funny. As a Solarian, I'd make sure to have something to do during ranged combats, typically healing. There are many good archetypes for that.
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There has to be a reason you can get into people's face and attack them and not be turned to swiss cheese.
I mean the reason is that guns aren't threatening enough to instantly drop a dedicated melee combatant from afar.
That's literally always the answer when a gun-heavy setting includes melee combatants, and it's true of Starfinder right now.
Melee will probably be better in Starfinder because of the lower damage output of guns and other ranged attacks. Build high Con and decent AC so you're not crit, grab Toughness, you're good to go Soldier! Especially with Reactive Strikes and a reach 3weapon, you basically get to spin the so called "Ranged Meta into the much scarier "Punishment Meta" simply because to avoid a Reactive Strike with a Reach Weapon is minimal 2 actions to double step. You either take 2 steps, 1 stride or 1 ranged strike and eat the Reactive Strike but since Ranged enemies generally have less Hit Points... Fighters can 100% capitalize upon this fact, not just that but they could also Disarm or Trip the enemy making them waste more turns to either stand up take an Reactive Strike, spend 1 action to get rid of Disarm penalty then decide to take the Reactive Strike since I doubt any enemy would step twice and skip their entire turn and not attack even if a crit stops them.
Disarm pairs very nicely with Envoy's Get Em1 Class Feature more then Trip does.
Also, battles in real life tend to happen in big open fields, or wide open streets. A non-trivial number of starfinder are likely to take place in cramped starship corridors or in mazes of crowded hive-like buildings (like the walled city), where an "Action Hero" soldier may inadvertently mow down a dozen civilians with their automatic fire.
no offense but soldiers fighting in iraq and afganistan, etc, might disagree with you. I know in Iraq that one of the bigger problems was dealing with "civilian" snipers and then clearing dangerous buildings. The soldiers might have been on open streets some of the time, but their enemies weren't. This is from some very limited knowledge. Guerilla warfare is how most wars are fought now.
I've been looking at classes now to see if something really fits most science fiction bug races. Which sound a lot like the pathfinder "swarm" and yet they seem to have mostly decided to make the split offs from the swarm fluffy cute bugs. I've yet to figure out if there's something that Makes me think this independent bug came from Xenomorphs (Alien), Arachnids (starship troopers), Tyranids (40k), or Zerg (starcraft) (technically these last 2 are buggish looking reptiles). Feels like there's a missing Bioform class that's all claws and carapace, and more evolved bio plasma launchers. Maybe there was a class like this in 1e? I'm kind of digging to see what I might do with an Operative.
I've been looking at classes now to see if something really fits most science fiction bug races. Which sound a lot like the pathfinder "swarm" and yet they seem to have mostly decided to make the split offs from the swarm fluffy cute bugs. I've yet to figure out if there's something that Makes me think this independent bug came from Xenomorphs (Alien), Arachnids (starship troopers), Tyranids (40k), or Zerg (starcraft) (technically these last 2 are buggish looking reptiles). Feels like there's a missing Bioform class that's all claws and carapace, and more evolved bio plasma launchers. Maybe there was a class like this in 1e? I'm kind of digging to see what I might do with an Operative.
Shirren were once part of the Swarm, so they're your core "sci-fi bug" ancestry.
As for the class, sounds like you would like the Evolutionist from 1E, which was sorta the Starfinder Druid. I'm sure that could come back as some kind of Archetype at some point.
Might be getting off-topic but I would love to play an Animal Instinct Barbarian Shirren...
> Shirren were once part of the Swarm, so they're your core "sci-fi bug" ancestry.
Sure, just having the right ancestry alone won't create the right feel since most abilities come from your class. I might like the Evolutionist class, but I can’t say for sure—especially since it's currently missing.
I bring this up because I see the "sci-fi bug" concept as being mostly melee-focused, which ties into the same issue. I also kind of dislike how Games Workshop has portrayed Tyranids. The idea of a reptilian bug holding a gun seems ridiculous to me, or rather, it just looks absurd. But that's just my opinion.
For some reason, *Pathfinder* has multiple classes that serve the same concept. While many of these are expansions, as I pointed out in another thread, there are 17 classes between the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Player's Guide (APG).
For some reason, *Pathfinder* has multiple classes that serve the same concept. While many of these are expansions, as I pointed out in another thread, there are 17 classes between the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Player's Guide (APG).
I'm really curious, which is the 17th? By my count there's only 16, the 8 that got republished in PC1 and the other 8 that had to wait for PC2. Either way, I don't disagree that the system needs better melee support from every one of its martials. Close quarters I don't think currently occupies the same space as ranged fighting does in PF2e, and it should. I also don't think we especially need any more dedicated melee classes, just more melee support for what is here.
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It's sort of odd, many PF2 classes innately support both melee and ranged, with a few classes being specific and requiring feats or subclasses to gain access to other fighting styles, but every martial in SF2 is designed with a certain mode of combat in mind and then have some limited support for other options.
It seems a little unnecessarily restricting to me.