Hiruma Kai's page

Finally got my gaming group together for a session 0 plus quick demo run, as it includes 2 new brand new to table top roleplaying game players. This was prior to the 3rd wave FAQ release. I'll be running Cosmic Birthday for the group over the coming month or two (some of the players travel a lot, so can't meet each week). This particular group also includes one experienced Pathfinder and Pathfinder 2e player, one experienced Pathfinder player who has played a few sessions of Pathfinder 2e.

Given the compatibility, the experienced Pathfinder 2e player asked to play a Pathfinder 2e class (Ysoki Corporate Agent Eldritch Trickster Rogue). This didn't strike me as a big problem, so I said yes.

Second most experienced player just wanted to shoot things from long range, and didn't want complicated turns, and wanted to play a fox alien. Lacking fox aliens, I OK'd the Kitsune ancestry, and is playing a Kitsune Grifter Sniper Operative.

The two new players gravitated towards a caster and someone punchy.

We were discussing Wizard, Mystic and Witchwarper as options for one player. The higher hitpoints and armor proficiencies kind of sold them on the Starfinder options, and after discussing the 4 magical traditions settled on a primal caster (blasting and heals), so the character ended up as a Pahtra Doctor Elemental Mystic. And yes, they also took the heal spell on top of Battle medicine and Vitality network.

The player who wanted to play something punchy eventually settled on a Solarian, being the one primary melee class in the rulebook. Eventually settled on a Shirren Spacefarer Radiant Solarian, with an eye to getting Shirren flight if the group continues on to higher levels.

I ran the playtest free demo (the Golarian World one) for the group, just to introduce the new players to how things might go, get a feel for how their characters play and if they want to make any changes to them and figure out what modifications I want to make to the playtest rules to make this fun for everyone.

So this admittedly essentially a single skill test hazard and single combat scenario, but several pieces of feedback came out of even this minimal test.

Not super-serious, but the above-average number of skills on the Solarian struck me as odd, given how the class really didn't feel like they were meant to be particularly good at skills.

It is a hold over from the 1st edition Solarian, which had a few minor perks related to skills generally. I always thought it came from Starwars and "using the force" to know things you shouldn't know, or being better at piloting or whatever skill they're working with.

1st) Skill adept which let you pick any 2 skills as class skills.
2nd) Sidereal Influence which gave 1d6 insight bonuses to a pair of skills (one while Gravition attuned out of combat, the other while Photon attuned out of combat) at 3rd, 11th, and 19th.

Mechanically, since 1st edition Solarian could not attune out of combat, it was to give them something class related outside of combat. They actually made for excellent diplomats, spies, or captains given their charisma key ability stat plus insight bonuses.

Stellar Rush says "Hello." Stride twice with a +10 ft bonus to Speed during the movement (that's 70 ft distance with a base speed of 25 ft; leaving one action left to Strike).

People are obsessing over "flying snipers" when evaluating the solarian.

I'm still kind of not sure what to make of the fact that they gave the Gallop action to Solarians as a feat option. When I think good mobility options for NPCs and PCs in Pathfinder 2e, Gallop isn't usually on my list. I suppose it is okay at low levels, but is both slower and less flexible than Sudden Charge, which I think of as the gold standard of gap closers and action economy buff for melee characters. There is a reason its on both the Barbarian and Fighter feat lists.

I think of it this way, Stellar Rush is maximally useful when the melee target is 5 to 20 feet further away than a double stride, but isn't 25 feet further than a double stride, since that will require a triple stride anyways. Its roughly an on demand Tailwind that you have to use with exactly 2 Stride actions. So as your base speed gets higher (speed suspensions, access to magic like Tailwind, fleet, racial abilities), Stellar Rush's gap closing becomes less likely to matter, where as a Sudden Charge which actually improves action economy as opposed to just speed, can find use far later in the game.

I can see in principle uses for graviton pull, but there are going also be times when you try to use it to pull a particular target out of cover, they succeed the save, and be left with 1 action to either move adjacent or Solar Shot, which just feels kind of terrible realizing you should have just moved adjacent and swung. Similarly, if you're closing distance with a solo enemy in photon mode, now your allies have to move wide to get a clear shot, or they have a miss chance while the solo enemy has no such miss chance hitting the Solarian. The fact that neither is optional is kind of weird as well.

Despite the above, I can understand the limitation, because even with just a one-handed weapon, the Solarian easily ends up outdamaging every other Starfinder class when they get to fight in melee, due to being the only one besides the Envoy to add their attribute modifier to their damage rolls. It Came From The Vast! in particular seemed almost entirely designed to cater to a Solarian, what with their melee-focused encounters where all of the enemies were massively weak to fire. In the instances where the class could fight in melee, their damage output felt extremely strong, at least compared to the weaker damage output of Starfinder classes rather than the usually greater melee damage of Pathfinder classes.

Isn't this just the fact that you've got +4 Strength and using melee weapons? A From the Front Envoy with a Painglaive could be running +3 Strength, +4 Charisma, can Get 'Em, Stride and Strike for 1d10+3+3 (11.5 average, 7 minimum) physical damage at level 1, with the -1 Penalty to AC making up for the 1 less to-hit due to strength. Admittedly this precludes a 2nd attack that turn, but does give +1 damage to everyone else.

If you want someone who attacks twice a turn in melee, a +3 Strength and +4 Dexterity Striker Operative can do 1d4+3+1d4 (8 average, 5 minimum) with a agile and finesse Starknife (and throw it out to 20 feet as a ranged option). Mobile Aim means Aim+Stride, Strike, Strike. +2 more to hit over the Solarian is a non-trivial average damage buff, with the 2nd attack only at -2 to-hit relative to the Solarian's first attack. Same damage and to-hit out to 20 feet as well with thrown option.

Compare to the Solarian with presumably +4 Strength and +3 Dexterity (for Solar Shot), their Solar Weapon deals 1d8+4 physical baseline (8.5 average,5 minimum) at 1st, or in photon mode 1d8+4 physical +1 fire (9.5 average, 6 minimum), although it suffers from two damage reduction types.

Solarian doesn't get much in the way of melee damage buffs - just photon mode Solar Weapon which is just keeping up with Weapon Upgrades like Fire Module and Frost Module. It's graviton mode damage is pretty far behind at high level compared to a melee focused operative, although as noted does have nice synergy with Reactive Strike. Not helpful when up against a melee enemy, but still.

Interestingly enough, if the Solarian ignores their Solar Weapon feature, and picks up a Painglaive, they still have reach, do more damage than they do in Graviton mode, and also do competitive damage to Photon mode if they keep up with damage modules. At level 20, fully upgraded Painglaive should do more damage than a reach Solar Weapon in photon mode, even with the +10 fire damage and 3 orbital crystals. Basically comes down to whether you want more damage up front, or including the Reactive Strike against a purely ranged striker while in graviton attunement.

The biggest issue I see is it is taking up word count and feat space on what is advertised as a melee class. The 2nd biggest issue is if you don't spend additional feats on it, it is essentially just a thrown weapon. Compare to an archaic spear or a modern singing spear as backup weapon that you spend ~10% of your total wealth on, including the returning rune/retrieval booster.

Every feat that works only on Solar Flare/Shot is a feat that isn't an option for making the Solarian better at melee. When building a character, I typically prefer to take most of the feats to make the character better at their main schtick, while investing 1 or 2 for insurance in rare situations.

Right now, look at the 12th level feats for example. You have the option between Covering Flare and Wormhole.

Why does the Solarian get a feat option for a move twice and Solar shot action anywhere during the move instead of a move twice and melee Strike attack anywhere during the move? Or better yet, how about just a feat that lets you spend 2 actions to get move, move and a general purpose strike anywhere during the moves?

At 14th level it is even worse, as you have the choice between a Solar Shield only feat or a Solar Barrage only feat. What happens if you want to improve your melee capabilities and already took Wormhole. You take a 10th level feat at 14th? Maybe not interested in Soul Furnace, so an 8th level feat? If you took Flicker Strike, I guess pick up Momentum?

It just feels bad when your backup weapon is getting better action compression than the main weapon that drew you to the class in the first place.

Compare to the Operative which gets options to use ranged weapons in melee range without an issue, as well as a number of options for getting out of melee range without reactions triggering, and moving through difficult terrain. Imagine if Operative only had two 14th level feats, and you were playing a Skirmisher, and your options were an ability to move twice and attack anywhere along the move with an agile melee weapons, and a Sniper weapon buff.

As it is, the Solarian is trying to cover the following build options:
Solar Weapon
Solar Flare
Nimbus
Solar Shield
Twin Weapon

with their own feat trees, while simultaneously being the class with the fewest feat options.

Solarians get 33 feat options right now, of which, for example, 5 only apply to Solar Shot and nothing else. Which means only 28 feat options in theory are melee centric. That's less than half the feat options that Soldiers get in total, which is 57.

Operatives have 52 feat options. Witchwarpers are full casters with 46 feat options. Envoys have 40 feat options. Mystics are full casters with 34 feat options.

This is why I'm an advocate of consolidating the manifestations down to Solar Weapon, Solar Flare, and Solar Shield, as distinct sub-classes. Then broaden the flexibility of the feats so they cover multiple types of weapons, both purchased as well as innate. In the same way many Operative feats can be used with agile melee weapons and ranged weapons by the Striker sub-class.

Right now if I try to plan out a melee focused Solarian with feats to support it, it just kind of feels bad compared to building an Operative, say. There's just not that many feats supporting it, leaving with very few build paths.

If you had a player come to you and say they want to have a light sword focused character, with a backup Shirren Eye Rifle (if they are in volley range, they're in let go with 1 hand, attune, stride and strike range), what feat selection would you suggest all the way to level 20?

I don't see why both can't be on the class. There is a reason Kinetic blast is both melee and ranged so why can't the Solarian have both? It would make no sense to limit it down to either being a melee manifestation or a ranged when clearly a class from Pathfinder 2E can already manifest both with the same ability not to mention Weapon Infusion can change the blast to being a 100ft Range Increment which changes it from being 30/60 ft with optional melee to add strength. Maybe the Solar Flare/Solar shot should just be an action ability you can do?

You could design the class that way, but then it is not really a translation of a Starfinder 1st edition Solarian, it is a translation of a 2nd edition Pathfinder Kineticist. Those two classes play completely differently in combat, both in mechanics and cinematic flavor. You can balance it along the lines of Kineticist, but would you really call it a melee focused class at that point? If I had a new player ask me a recommendation for a melee class to play in Pathfinder 2e, I wouldn't recommend a Kineticist. I'd recommend a more traditional melee character like a Fighter.

In Starfinder, if someone says they want to play a light sword wielding melee character, I'd like to be able to recommend something that plays closer to Fighter (with some special effects) than a blaster Sorcerer or Kineticist.

When 1st edition Starfinder came out, my low level and mid-level combat experience my Solarian was all about good movement coupled with melee attacks, and cool special effects while doing other actions. It was also the forward scout (sidereal's +1d6 insight bonus was nice for stealth) and pilot for the party. I was never sitting behind cover taking pot shots or thrown weapons at targets, although I had those backup weapons on hand. I was way, way out front making attacks of opportunity and moving very fast from unexpected angles. I spent a lot of time on the ceiling, for example, since it didn't typically have difficult terrain.

So I think it is fair for people to express a desire for a melee centric playstyle with the tools to compliment that playstyle, instead of simply being handed the equivalent of a magic blaster character. They want the power budget or word count spent more towards the melee Fighter fantasy instead of the Sorcerer blaster fantasy.

I tend to think it is better to have the class be good at its specialization. In this case specifically, getting into melee range, while surviving and dealing damage there. It can still have the backup plan for ranged be handled by equipment. Nothing prevents a Solarian from picking up a thrown weapon or a laser rifle. Since that is true, I don't want the class word count being put towards simply replicating the abilities of a thrown weapon or laser rifle.

And finally, back to my original point, if you do in fact put the class power budget/word count towards something better than a thrown weapon or laser rifle, why would you want to use the Solar Weapon instead of this new Kineticist blast? Why wouldn't you just stay with the team in cover and shoot the enemies from range and wait for them to come to you?

Right now, the developers are going to have a really, really hard time making everyone happy with both ranged and melee options as built in, as one is going to end up being mechanically superior to the other. All other things being equal (damage, to-hit, special effects), then ranged is going to be better. It is the same reason reach is worth 2 trait picks.

How many traits is a 30 or 60 foot reach worth (i.e. Operative with hair trigger comes to mind. :) )?

So they need to make Solar Flare slightly worse in order to make Solar Weapon mechanically worthwhile, but there's a lower limit in the form of purchased ranged weapons.

I personally think the Solar Manifestations should be split, like in 1st edition. You pick one manifestation, and that is it. You either get Solar Weapon, Solar Flare, or Solar Shield (i.e. combined Nimbus/Shield).

Then you have very clearly defined expectations. Solar Weapon is melee focused with some purchased ranged weapon as backup. It should come with a strong gap closer action which is just default class ability, not a feat choice. Not being a feat choice means it can be class defining without being taken for some other class with dedication feats.

Solar Flare is ranged focused, with some purchased melee weapon as backup. It can then have all the features of an actual ranged weapon (range increments, traits, etc). It should also get a default class ability, possibly just using Athletics at the same range as the Solar Flare (perhaps with Gravition allowing trip, reposition, and grapple, while Solar allows trip, shove, and disarm).

Solar Shield becomes defensive and support focused, with a purchased melee weapon as primary. With the idea of things like reflected ranged attacks or concealment to nearby allies against ranged attacks, encouraging enemies to close with the Solar Shield Solarian rather than the other way around. Imagine sharing the AC bonus and reaction to block damage with nearby allies as a built in action. The Solarian becomes mobile cover for the team.

This would make the design space much easier to work with. I think rather than trying to balance 3 or 4 manifestations (if you take the Solar Shield feat) against each, sometimes fighting for the same reaction (Nimbus vs Shield Block), that just making each one really worthwhile to use on its own is going to make the class standout in player's minds.

Take for example how the individual shield block and nimbus reactions are going to have to be balanced individually, when there's a single feat to combine them to be used at the same time. Do they balance it so each reaction is worthwhile on its own, or do they balance it so the combine reaction isn't too strong? If they were a single reaction from the beginning (i.e. just Shield) you could make it a strong and memorable reaction from the start.

Anyways, such a separation I think would make the most people happy simultaneously. At the end of the day, I would personally like the Solarian to primarily have melee options, but a ranged sub-class isn't bad, and lets people who want the Kineticist ranged feel have that, while still making most players who pick it go down the offensive or defensive melee routes.

One thing to consider in the design space is, what is the intended typical turn of a Solarian supposed to look like, and what does the class mechanically push you towards actually doing in a turn.

The only issue I see with buffing Solar Shot is if it goes too far, at some point it will outshine the Solar Weapon. Maybe the class needs the help, but doing so will result in the feel of the class being different.

If Solar Shot got the brutal trait, and could get weapon upgrades like either the Solar Weapon or weapons in general, would that be mechanically making the Solar Shot superior to Solar Weapon, relegating the Solar Weapon to the backup weapon?

I think a good question to ask is, what incentivizes a Solarian running into melee at every level, from the lowest levels to the highest?

Solar Shot using strength to hit, but not to damage makes some sense. Keeping it lower accuracy with similar damage as Solar Weapon also makes some sense. Using strength to hit, plus damage, plus full item bonuses and potency rune equivalents, is probably too much.

How much of a disadvantage does Solar Shot need relative to Solar Weapon to keep it a backup method instead of primary for a typical player.

I have a player who wants to try a Sniper Operative, which clearly has a focus on Stealth and presumably shooting from stealth.

However, reading the Aim action, it says nothing about interactions with the hidden state. Given the rules under the Hide and Sneak actions, any action (which Aim is) that is not Hide, Sneak or Step breaks hidden and makes you observed.

Is this intended?

Similarly, interact actions to activate a Sniper Scope or reload a Sniper rifle will also remove the hidden condition, which makes a Snipe and hide sequence extremely awkward, and looks like its simply going to devolve into an Aim, Shoot Sniper Rifle, and Reload+Stride (via Mobile Reload) sequence every turn in order to simply use the sniper rifle for its 1 shot per turn, and never actually interact with Stealth.

Anyone else have experience GMing or running a Sniper Operative?

If you can't run all the way in one round drop prone to get +4 to your AC against ranged attacks. Crawl to stay prone.

Unfortunately, taking 2 actions, one to drop prone and one to take cover only gets you a net +2 bonus to AC (possibly less if you're already getting circumstance bonuses to AC). Prone makes you off-guard, and thus includes a -2 circumstance penalty to AC, and Take Cover while prone provides a +4 circumstance bonus to AC, for a net of only +2 versus ranged ttacks, and -2 versus melee.

I'd suggest if you want to charge across the field, you invest in a 25 credit Commercial Carbon Shield, and use the Raise a Shield action for +2 circumstance bonus to AC, followed by 2 Strides. This uses fewer actions, provides the same net bonus, doesn't activate anything reliant on off-guard, and also provides AC while you're moving in case of reactions or prepared actions.

Photon attuned lists 2d8+4 Fire damage, but should be 2d8+4 Physical + 3 Fire, right?

Agreed. 5th level should do 5/2 round up or +3 F damage, and the base damage should be slashing given they're trying to mimic a battle ribbon.

Graviton is listed as Bludgeoning damage (fine), but for some reason has the piercing trait?

Yes, piercing trait should instead be a reminder that adjacent squares are treated as difficult terrain. As for bludgeoning, they can do that, but then the Photon attunement should also be bludgeoning, and that feels weird for something they're describing as a battle ribbon.

In both cases, it's listed as having both the reach and trip traits; however, in the playtest book reach is in place of the two traits, so you shouldn't be able to also pick trip (I think it might have just grabbed the traits of Battle Ribbon, but I don't think that's correct)

You are correct. They could either have reach, or trip and something else, but not reach and trip.

Other mistakes I see on the 5th level Solarian sheet:
Nimbus Surge photon attunement says it deals 1 fire damage, when it should be 3 (or half level rounded up).

Under Solar shot attack photon attunement on the sheet, the notes should be "Critical: Persistent 1d6 F", not just Persistent 1d6 F.

Similarly, Solar shot attack gravition attunement should not have powered, reach or tech. It should have Critical: May make Athletics trip attack

Performance, Deception, and Diplomacy should have a +3 charisma bonus, not +2, and should be +12,+10, and +10 respectively.

Stealth check doesn't include the noisy trait Hardlight series armor and should be +2. Although, why is he wearing Hardlight armor? He doesn't need flexible, and Microcord is cheaper.

Its armor is listed weird. Dex should be +3 and item should be +2, not the other way around.

Anyways, those are the immediate mistakes that jump out at me.

Haruma Kai wrote:

Given Ultralight wings are available at 3rd level for ~1/3 the cost, I'm not really sure why Jetpacks are 5th.

I think it's a flexibility and opportunity cost thing. If you don't need a jetpack in the moment you can swap it out and slap some new upgrade on in its place with a couple minutes' work. The ultralight wings, in contrast, are an augmentation, which takes a lot longer to install and remove, and has a limitation of requiring light armor, as well. Buying into the wings is more of an investment.

If we take a step back though, Ultralight wings are encouraging the already stronger mechanically choices.

There are roughly 4 possibilities in terms of flight/no flight and ranged, no ranged:

Flight and good ranged (i.e. high dex encourged)
Grounded and good ranged (i.e. high dex encouraged)
Flight and melee/heavy armor (lower dex encouraged)
Gounded and melee/heavy armor (lower dex encouraged)

I will point out that Pathfinder 2e does includes flight at very low level - it is just on melee only enemies. Take a look at the Eagle from Monster Core. Flight 60' enemy and it is a Creature-1. You can encounter multiples of it as a level 1 party in Pathfinder 2e, but no one bats an eye because it is a melee enemy. It has to come close in order to do anything.

As a party in Pathfinder, you can have a group with multiple flying animal companions at level 1 as well (Bats, Birds, etc).

So having flight and being melee only looks to be fine from level 1 on in the Pathfinder 2e system. Similarly, ranged attackers (either weapons or spells) with flight are considered much more dangerous, and don't show up at such low levels.

So Ultralight wings is another benefit of going high dexterity, since not only do you get full AC in light armor, as well as providing good ranged striking, you get earlier access to flight by 2 levels and for less credits.

From a design perspective, I ask myself why do dexterity based classes (i.e. Operatives) need earlier flight access than strength based classes (i.e. Solarians)? I would tend to think you wouldn't want to give dexterity, arguably the most overloaded stat in the game in combat, yet another combat benefit.

Instead, I would think you would want either equal access to flight all at the same time, or in the same way Pathfinder 2e enemies do it, earlier access for the less ranged builds, and later access for the ranged builds.

You could move ultralight wings to 5th level (since that is where most of the flight options seem to come online), and provide a level 3 armor upgrade that only works in heavy armor, and that is so hard to maneuver it limits your dexterity bonus to +0 or less while turned on. This would make ranged attack and flight builds not want that option. Casters would typically have difficulty getting heavy armor proficiency by 3rd level as well, making this more of a Soldier and Solarian option, rather than an Operative option. And then at 5th, flight opens up for everyone generally.

As for slot usage, I do admit Ultralight wings eats up an augmentation slot, but for low level characters, it is extremely easy to have more augmentation slots available than you can reasonably fill. Characters can start with anywhere from 1 augmentation slot (1 base slot +0 Con) to 7 (+4 Con, heritage or feat, background), so for a typical character (perhaps +2 Con?), you're using 1 of 3 slots augmentation wise versus your only armor upgrade slot. If you want a 2nd augmentation in addition to ultralight wings, it is easy to grab. The armor slot could be swapped with 10 minutes, but the Ultralight wings can have that single armor slot already setup, and still have space for augmentations.

I just consider the armor upgrade slot more valuable than the augmentation slot at low levels (especially since it costs less credits as well).

Anyways, that is the reason I was asking about the ultralight wings being 3rd. If the strongest option combined with flight is available, why restrict the weaker combinations to later?

A contrived scenario (an enemy burning an action to float free of cover against opponents too stupid or lazy to carry a gun) doesn’t change this.

I'm amused by the fact that the developers wrote that exact contrived scenario into a playtest encounter.

While I don't have an opinion yet on whether Solarians need built in flight that early, and if I were playing and not GMing, I'd be the player who realizing they have no flight, would have a +3 dexterity modifier and a rifle, and be using light armor with an eye to Ultralight wings as soon as possible, but I admit that does seem to limit the build space a bit a low levels.

Although, does relying on a rifle ranged attack make low dexterity Solarians aiming for Solar Rampart a trap option at early levels?

Personally, if a change is necessary, I would suggest to the developers to simply lower the level of commercial Jetpacks to level 1 or 2 and make it cost 50 credits, and remove Jump Jets. This solves the problem for all melee classes, including any ported over from Pathfinder or future ones like the Vanguard. It eats up your armor upgrade slot (which will only be one in the 1-5 level range), and eats an action at the beginning of combat, which are sufficient down sides compared to those with the ability to fly innately I would think. Also, 20 foot fly speed isn't that fast.

Still, I do believe that the Solarian abilities which provide a Stride action or modify land speed, should have the same clause that Fighter Sudden Charge has, which lets you use any movement speed with the ability, as opposed to just land speeds.

Given Ultralight wings are available at 3rd level for ~1/3 the cost, I'm not really sure why Jetpacks are 5th.

Great, that sounds like a perfect opportunity to showcase the non-physical damage from your Solarian abilities, including the bonus fire damage on your solar weapon! Notice how you're talking about a soft counter of resistance, which will by the way affect every other martial class in the game much more severely due to their ranged focus (in other words, lower damage) and lack of inherent non-physical damage in their kit.

Assuming we are talking about the Starfinder setting, a martial character's damage type is purely determined by the weapon they are using. Every class has access to non-physical damage in their kit simply by buying the right weapon. This includes both ranged and melee. 30 credits buys you a Laser Pistol. 60 credits buys you an Acid Dart Rifle, which everyone including casters are going to be proficient in.

I would expect every martial in the game to be packing at least 2 weapons of their preferred type with 2 different damage types. Keeping a backup weapon one full tier lower (i.e. +1 to hit, 2 damage dice vs +2 to hit, 3 damage dice), is relatively cheap given the exponential costs of weapon upgrades. Plus if you know ahead of time, upgrades can be swapped in 10 to 20 minutes.

All I'm saying is I'd like the Solarian to continue to have that option like everyone else in the setting. Switching Solar Weapon and Solar Shot to Con means those backup melee options become slightly less efficient (+3 Str at best vs +4 Con), or potentially non-viable depending on build choices.

Legendary weapon proficiency blows all of those other abilities out of the water, again with the Fighter as a prime example. One could also argue that the Champion ends up with approximately the same armor proficiency as everyone else up until level 16, but that would be disingenuous. All this says is that this proficiency bump is inappropriate both due to its inclusion and the level at which it's placed.

Thats a fair take. I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other, given 19th and 20th level abilities have zero impact on the vast majority of play. I wouldn't mind seeing it changed, given other martials have no issues not having legendary weapon proficiency at 19-20. I just don't want level 19 and 20 abilities driving basic balance decisions for the entire class, including levels 1-18.

I really don't think this is the case, given how Solarians by default have a bunch of damage types to choose from, with physical damage types rarely hitting immunities at all in 2e.

The way I play martials in Pathfinder 1e, Starfinder 1e, and Pathfinder 2e, is to always have as much of a variety of damage types as reasonably possible. Certainly being able to carry a spare Shock Truncheon, Bone Scepter, and Neural Lash adds 4 different damage types (Electric,Cold,Void,Mental) plus nonlethal which can interact with rules in different ways that a CON to Solar Weapon/Solar Flare can't. For only 35 credits and 2-3 Bulk, there's no reason not to have a suite of weapons like that by 2nd level on Solarian, and potentially even at 1st level.

I think of it this way: When you're a character that doesn't have amazing magical powers and you make your living fighting on the front lines, survival is dependent on preparation.

I also don't think the other arguments really hold water either -- the Solarian isn't terribly concerned with Bulk when they don't have to carry a weapon by default, they already have inbuilt class features that let them apply crowd control to enemies at close range (that's the central purpose of graviton abilities), and their ability to reach legendary proficiency with their solar weapon to me suggests that their key ability shouldn't be the one they use to Strike with it, otherwise the class just ends up being a Pathfinder Fighter with an entire other class's worth of abilities added on top.

For levels 1-18, they have exactly the same Solar Weapon proficiency as a Barbarian, a Champion, an Investigator, a Magus, a Monk, a Ranger, a Rogue, or a Swashbuckler in their preferred weapons. At 19th a Solarian finally hit Legendary in Solar Weapon proficiency, but a Monk gets to replace their first attack roll with a 10 if its worse and a Barbarian gets to ignore the first 10 points of physical damage resistance. Its a 19th level perk, not normal proficiency advancement.

Fighters are Expert at 1st, Master at 5th, and Legendary at 13th in their preferred weapons. I personally wouldn't call a Barbarian a Fighter with a whole class of special abilities on top, and Solarians will presumably end up similar. Basic martial chassis (i.e. not Fighter accuracy) with thematic abilities on top.

Personally, I agree totally Solarian need better mobility options. On top of that, those mobility options need to be compatible with different movement modes. If enemies are expected to have flight in the early levels, then Solarian options need to be compatible with flight. Even a Pathfinder Fighter's Sudden Charge is compatible with flight, while none of the Solarian movement options so far are.

I also believe they need better damage mitigation abilities than they have access to now. Currently, general feats and equipment anyone can use are stronger than class feats spent on Solarian defense.

Lastly, I also wish Solar Flare/Shot was an option and not a fixed class ability. I don't think this entire Str to Con key ability discussion wouldn't have come up if the class didn't have a dexterity based ability that looks like it should be some kind of Kineticist blast.

Like, make Solar Weapon, Solar Shot, or Solar Shield your one manifestion pick at 1st level. Just absorb Nimbus into the shield since they're literally covering the same design space. Now you can have an optional ranged build like how the Soldier and Operative both have melee options. Then make each individual ability stronger than they are now, to account for the lack of flexibility. I'd much rather Solarians have a single ability that I want to use, than a watered down option that looks inferior to simply picking up a weapon or shield.

And finally simply make the feats use Strike with any weapon, instead of restricting it to Solar Weapon.

Take Shattering Impact for example, which is quite bad right now, since you need to attune after using it (making it functionally a 3 action attack). Which doesn't even work with Ascended Stability, since you still need to attune to re-manifest your weapon, even if you cancel the disharmony effect with the reaction. Call it Surging Impact, make it work with any weapon, and keep the disharmony tag if absolutely necessary, but don't make it break the weapon, Solar or not.

Let the Solarian be a martial like a Barbarian or a Champion or a Fighter, I don't want to restrict it to the two class ways to attack and thats it.

For one, Paizo alluded to a potential ranged playstyle for Solarian in the preview. This really hasn't materialized. For another, Solarian is already greatly incentivised to use its solar weapon exclusively since almost all of its features and feats specify the solar weapon.

I personally would much prefer the Solarian feats be unconnected to Solar Weapon specifically, rather than doubling down on it. Solarian Reactive Strike just needs a melee weapon, so why not make Eclipse Strike just need a melee weapon? That feels like a cleaner design change than having to do all the Con to other stuff the Soldier needs to do, but on the Solarian instead. Similarly, ranged Solarian should be a sub-class, and the easiest way to do that I feel is make a selection for manifestation at 1st.

A gun as a sidearm is more realistic for a Solarian as printed, since it can still deal extra elemental damage for resistance bypass while also working around the class' range issues.

Agreed. However, I'd much rather see Solar Shot be strength to hit and damage in that case, rather than Con to hit and damage. Strength makes as much sense as Con in that case to me (Martial arts inspired Fire- and Air-bending comes to mind). I'm arguing against a KAS change, not improvements to the fundamental abilities of the Solarian, which I totally agree are needed.

Again, this isn't a theoretical issue. Solarian is right now expected to near-exclusively use their solar weapon and hope the rest of the party has got you if that fails.

Which I prefer would be fixed by not making all the feats be tied to the Solar Weapon or Solar Shot.

I'm seeing two classes that are each having issues with their key stats as outlined, and making the observation that swapping their key stats and tuning them a little bit would allow for greater consistency and build freedom for both thanks to less attribute dependence issues.

My issue is I see making the Solarian be Con based would restrict build freedom, not expand it. With change of KAS to Con, if I build a Solarian, I would be restricted to using Solar Weapon and Solar Shot as my only effective options. None of the melee weapons in the setting will be used by the character, since it won't have the strength to use them effectively. Where as a basic martial chassis based on strength it has the freedom to use any melee weapon that might provide an advantage in the moment.

I want to use the Solarian like one would use a melee Barbarian, a melee Champion, a melee Ranger, and so on. I want the class feats providing the mobility, defensive capabilities, and crowd control one needs to survive in a "ranged meta", ideally with a flowing gameplay which empowers what the class does. Right now, doing some simple testing of certain abilities at mid-level feels like a few of the class abilities are more of a straight jacket and restricting what you can do, especially when compared to other martial classes in Pathfinder 2e or the Solarian in 1st edition.

I'm going to chime in here with some counter arguments to the Soldier Str/Solarian Con swap proposal.

Melee: Solarian is the melee class in Starfinder 2e.  It doesn't have a ranged sub-class/fighting style.  It is the only class that defaults to using melee weapons.  Changing Solar Weapon and Solar Flare to CON based abilities make backup melee weapons (i.e. not the solar weapon) with, say, alternative damage types, much less effective.  I feel like Con to hit and damage for all melee weapons is harder to justify than just Solar Weapon and Solar Flare.  

Soldier has a single fighting style dedicated to melee weapons, and still wants dexterity in that build for when it shoots, and it is going to want to shoot given what opposition is likely to be.

Athletics: As a 1-handed melee class, Solarians are in the best position to use Athletics for things like Trip, Reposition, etc.  They want to be adjacent to enemies and will typically have a free hand. The class was clearly designed with that free hand in mind for those kinds of maneuvers.

Soldiers are still ranged strikers and the majority of Soldiers will be using 2-handed ranged weapons, and thus not want to be in melee, nor have a free hand to make Athletics checks.  Lastly, Constitution helps defend against some Athletics maneuvers (like Grappling), unlike Strength which is only used offensively for Athletics.

Bulk:  For the majority of Soldiers, Strength is literally only used for Bulk capacity.  Only a Close Quarters Soldier really cares, but that's a single fighting style, and the KAS should not be based on a fighting style which is going against the rest of the mold of the class. Strength might fulfill a particular character conception, but I'd argue Constitution is just as good as representing the big guy.

Mechanically, Bulk issues have alternative solutions, such as Hefty Hauler.  I'd much rather spend a skill feat for +2 Bulk, then be -2 to hit with Primary Target or -2 hit points per level and -2 to Fort Saves.  Action Hero and Bombard simply get more from Str+1/Dex +3/Con+4/Int +0/Wis +0/Cha +1 than Str+4/Dex+3/Con+1/Int+0/Cha +1 assuming the Con related stuff was switched to Str.

Now I agree the class as presented needs work, but I don't think a Str->Con key ability swap is addressing those current issues.  Mechanically, you can make any Stat do anything if the developers want, but if the Solarian is going to be the only default melee class in SF2, then it is the only class that Strength makes sense for as a key ability score, so it can use any melee weapon effectively.

If we restrict the class to only using Solar Flare/Solar Weapon effectively, then you start to need damage bypass options like the Kineticist, and it starts to look like a 10 hp per level kineticist-like caster instead of a martial class.

Assuming no one wants to change the Pathfinder 2e rules and runes, then I'd propose rolling it into the analog and tech traits as opposed to the classes.

You could have the analog and tech traits provide a flat damage bonus equal to the weapon's item level, unless the weapon also has the archaic trait. Thats the distinction between property runes and not.

Tactical: +2 damage (level 2, currently 1 module, can't afford property rune/module)

Advanced: +4 damage (level 4, currently 2 modules, still can't afford property rune/module)
Superior: +10 damage (level 10, currently 2 modules, can afford runes, so ~7 damage)
Elite: +12 damage (level 12, currently 3 modules, so ~10.5 damage from runes)
Ultimate: +16 damage (level 16, currently 3 modules, ~10.5 damage from runes)
Paragon: +19 damage (level 19, currently 4 modules, ~14 damage from runes)

So this would have about an extra damage die as you level up, for free. Or maybe not for free, since you'd roll the old rune prices into the upgrade price. Could also consider the bonus damage to be item level-4, minimum zero, which would shift it down to a better approximation of the current rune damage.

Less ideal would be a single upgrade module which gives damage per item level. So now you only have 1 must take module instead of 3 or 4. By setting the price correctly, you can limit the early game bonus damage if that is what is desired.

In Fieldtest #5, it is mentioned the developers are aiming to have a ranged meta for Starfinder 2e.

There's been some discussion around the Operative's damage output, and ranged having higher damage outputs in general, but I'm wondering what the developer's intent is.

I've heard META used in two different ways. The newer one is along the lines of strongest or best, i.e. most effective tactics available. The older one, and the sense I believe the developers are using here, is what everyone else is bringing to the table (or the tournament in its more typical usage setting). In this instance, I expect it means NPCs, monsters, and players will all be bringing ranged weapons to the table, or a way to deal with flying ranged players at the very least.

Given I haven't seen any proposed rules changes for monster generation themselves, and ranged damage is expected to be lower than melee damage in those generation rules:

So during the playtest, what should be the expectation? If everyone is going to have ranged options, then I'd expect less individual damage per action taken to Strike, less absolute need to take move actions (even if the target moves away, you can still shoot), more Take Cover actions to swing exchanges your way, and potentially a similar need to move to eliminate said take cover actions by flanking (in the military sense, not the melee sense) to get clear shots.

Or are people expecting individual ranged damage contributions from players should be going up per action taken? Is there an expectation that monster/NPC generation rules are going to change to mirror that? What about the statement in the Fieldtest about Solarians getting up in their faces and dealing "serious" damage?

A final question is what do people want to see in terms of typical combat flow in Starfinder, and how that would differ from Pathfinder. What should the developers aim for?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Starfinder 2e and Pathfinder 2e utilize the same monter/NPC creation methods. Which means the combat opposition is going to be the same for a Fighter, Barbarian, or Solarian.

In the playtest documents, they encourage us to drop in Pathfinder monters. They also expect at some point to see Fighters and Wizards fighting alongside Soldiers and Witchwarpers once fully released.

See, for example, page 4 of the Playtest PDF:

While the exact damage doesn't need to be the same, the overall contribution of the class to combat should be similar to some kind of averaged martial contribution. In this case, Solarian perhaps could be compared to a very inflexible Magus or Thautmagurist perhaps. Or maybe a melee Kinectist? These classes can come at the game from different directions than a pure Fighter, but are expected to pull their weight in combat as well.

The fact of the matter is, it's baseline proficiencies (Perception, Saves, Class DC, skills) are identical or close (why Class DC is slightly worse progression, I'm not sure) to a Fighter's, and it's weapon proficiencies follow a typical martial, except for the legendary Solar Weapon at 19. It is definitely a martial at its core.

As a strength based melee martial class, it totally should be expected to be fulling that melee damage dealing role that Fighters and Barbarians take on, but instead of extra accuracy or rage abilities, they do it with flashy, but inflexible spell-like abilities. These should be on par with things Barbarians can do in their rage, like Giant's Stature, Scouring Rage, and Dragon's Rage Wings.

It has to solve all the same problems that melee Fighters and Barbarians need to solve, which include how to survive the extra damage melee combat typically inflicts as well as getting into melee with targets that don't want to be there. The individual powers don't need to line up, but the overall effectiveness when you combine everything does need to be there. Which is why playtest runs with players will be the true test, but looking at the current rules as written, I agree there are places where the class looks like its going to fall behind where it needs to be.

As written? Probably Con. Simply because hit points are going to provide more protection than the low level abilities, and heavy armor is an option at 2nd.

You can technically ignore Solar Flare, and just not take Balanced Arrangement.

Personally, I'd rather see a variety of Solarian builds instead of strength first, dexterity second, everything else third all the time, which is what Solar Flare pushes people towards. If it was a save DC, that would help. Alternatively, make it an option instead of mandatory.

Like, you get Solar Weapon and then pick one of other manifestation: Solar Flare, Solar Shield, or Solar Nimbus. Maybe just Solar Shield or Solar Flare, since Nimbus and Shield are really going down the same theme, Nimbus is just alot more restrictive (melee hits only). I'm also worried the designers are weaking both Shield and Nimbus because you can stack them. I'd rather just have a single stronger ability that doesn't take as many feat to get online.

Solarian has the sticky part of being a tank covered, just not the survivability as much.

Consider being in graviton attunement, every single successful strike of your Solar Weapon is going to make the terrain around the target difficult. That makes it harder for them to move on to a different target.

Solar Flare/Shot does use a hand, and Solar Weapon is 1 handed, so you have a spare hand for a shield, so buy a Commercial Carbon Shield and Raise a Shield for +2 circumstance AC.

In terms of Solarian Arrangement, Degradant helps with control tanking, as an opening Black Hole (which doesn't affect allies), can knock at least a few enemies prone, making them waste actions.

As far as 1st level class feats, Solar Shield is inferior to a normal shield or even Shield Cantrip (which is good option from an Ancestry). Twin Weapon isn't really defensive in nature and uses up another hand, and to be honest, doesn't do that much for you.

Meditative Analysis is a single action cycle, so its slightly better than Attune when you need to change your attunement back to gravition, so its a reasonable pick if you want to just test Solarian feats.

Stellar Rush is also cycle, and the photon effect can in theory provide concealment to your allies, although it also provides it to the enemies, so seems rather a net wash. Typically you're not going to want to use it while in graviton attunement. So the question is, how often will you be in photon mode and want to stride twice?

Personally, a dedication feat is probably the strongest pick at level 1 for the Solarian as written, but that is less playtesting and more just optimizaiton. Certainly a dedication that gives you the Shield Cantrip and another Cantrip is going to be stronger than Solar Shield, and prevent more damage per fight.

2nd level class feat can be Solar Rampart, which gets you heavy armor proficiency, so another net +1 armor class.

I'd probably do Str +4/Dex +1/Con +2/Int +0/Wis +2/Cha +0, with Freebooter armor at 1st and then maybe Hidden Soldier Armor at 3rd.

In theory, Eclipse Strike also improves survivability, but its a cycle action, where as you want to stay in gravition typically. Also, the defensive benefit is highly situation dependent (does nothing against a single hard target for example), so I think the heavy armor option is better. Unfortunately, you don't get the armor specialization effects at 11th the way I read it, but you do get expert heavy armor proficiency, and then master at 17th.

At 3rd level, you can use your general feat to take Shield Block, to use with your normal shield.

Once you hit 4th, you can take Reactive Strike. So if you hit them last turn with your Solar Weapon, they can't step away, and have to take a Reactive Strike if they want to shoot or move to someone else.

Thats roughly what I'd do for a tanking Solarian.

In theory, the graviton attunement Nimbus Surge reaction could cause a target to waste an extra action by moving it away, but reach/good fortitude saves/enemies wanting to get away from melee are going to make it a waste of a reaction in the tanking role many times. The worst part about it is, the push is both non-optional and chance based. So if you're using an Empowered Nimbus to reduce damage against a reach creature, it might put you in a worse position next turn as you need to spend an action to stride to get close again or the like.

It also only works in melee, which is the same place you want to use Reactive Strike. So the basic shield gives you a reaction you can use at range and in melee, and does damage reduction regardless of your attunement state.

Oh interesting. I originally read Stellar Rush's photon attunement as creating the concealment squares during the stride, and thus might in theory have some effect during the movement due to reactions.

So with your help, I now realize that the wording implies the concealment squares pop up at the very end. Which is a very different cinematic feel. More like casting a spell by tracing a path rather than leaving a trail.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm personally of the opinion Stellar Rush should either be Stride three times (without the circumstance bonus to speed), so it scales to higher levels and better equipment, or a Sudden Charge clone (Stride, Stride, Strike). That way it doesn't clash with Solar Wind's +10 circumstance bonus to speed.

Right now, Stellar Rush is just Gallop, but with 2 very niche attunement riders. Basically, it needs some better action economy.

Compare what you would have done without spending a feat on Stellar Rush. 3 Strides would have 120 feet. Stellar Rush got you to 140 feet, which is only a half action savings. Which will get weaker and weaker in terms of action economy as your base speed goes up. If other melee classes can save a single action of Striding with a feat (i.e. Sudden Charge), why not the Solarian?

In the old 1st edition, my Solar Armor Solarian with Pike was Stellar Rushing (i.e. charging with no penalty) 80 feet after a 40 foot move, and still striking with a 10 foot reach around this level.

Although, tactical positioning and a long rifle would help on the way in as well. Personally, I feel like the Photon attunement benefit on Stellar Rush should be more personally beneficial. Like automatic concealment for the turn or something as opposed to this weird manuevering you need to do of crossing the T to get the concealment benefit for yourself (while also benefiting the enemy).

Similarly, the pull towards you after you finish striding is really awkward. Ideally, you'd be able to pull the targets at any point during the move (leaving an extra 5 foot move if you need it), and step up to the target if they didn't get pulled.

Solar Flare and the related action Solar Shot as written has several issues as I see it.

I agree the dexterity reliance means the class is going to want to be Str and Dex heavy in order to use it, which limits build possibilities unfortunately.

I'll note it is clearly intended to be a thrown weapon replacement, since thrown weapon ranged strikes in 2e use dexterity to hit and strength to damage. So it is definitely dex based.

However, that at least can built towards with only 1 point accuracy difference between melee and ranged. The bigger issue is I see no way to get item bonus to hit (i.e. potency runes) on Solar Shot right now. As you get to higher levels, it is going to fall behind your melee options significantly, and even fall behind an actual offhand throwing weapon with the returning rune in terms of accuracy. At low level the difference might not be that great (+7 with +4 Strength for a Solar Weapon, +6 with Solar Shot with +3 Dexterity at 1st). But even by 2nd level, with +1 Solarian Weapon crystal, there's already a +2 gap (+9 vs +7). By 20th, as written assuming you maximize both (+6 Strength/+5 Dexterity), its +37 with Solar Weapon vs +31 with Solar Shot. And if you don't invest in Dex because you want a less agile Solarian build (say you want Str/Con/Int/Wis), then you really need to ignore it as an option.

On the bright side you can just ignore it, and just have low or average dexterity, but that basically eliminates Balanced Arrangement as a reasonable choice since Binarhic Assault uses Solar Shot. Its potentially a trap option, since some combinations of stats and levels will leave the character better off simply using the basic Strike action twice with the Solar Weapon instead of using Binarhic Assault.

Essentially, Solar Flare needs to scale with Solarian Weapon Crystals if we want to make it a main part of the class.

Twin Weapon feels like it might be good if there was some other support for the two weapon style in the base class. Right now, there really isn't (Twin Guard isn't offensive, and uses once again the one reaction per turn). Fighters get Double Slice for example, and would be the obvious dedication dip if you do go Twin Weapon. And if you're not going to be using Solarian feats to take advantage of it offensively, one might argue you could just buy an offhand agile weapon. Credits in exchange for a saved feat.

On the topic of Nimbus vs Solar Shield and reactions, I'll point out Solar Shield in photonic mode potentially does literally nothing on reaction use, so you're back to Nimbus for your being hit reaction in a lot of cases. Without hardness, photon attunement Solar Shield doesn't prevent any damage, and if the damage isn't high enough to shatter it in one go, the reaction merely lowers the counter until your shield breaks.

Potentially you are using multiple reactions to once per combat get a 5 foot AoE centered on the character that allows a save against having a 25% miss chance (or critical fail blind). If you're in the right attunement at the right times, you could be graviton on the initial damage hits, and photon at just the right momement, but there's a lot of variance in damage dice, and a lot of potentially inefficient attunement/cycle actions to do so.

Simply sitting in graviton Solar Shield is better as it actually gets a hardness, but its pretty low compared to actual physical shields. Or even the shield cantrip. You essentially have to spend like 3 feats (Solar Shield, Empowered Nimbus, and Nimbus Block) to eventually get to a reasonable level of resistance versus physical damage types. Up until you run out of shield HP (which is only 17 hp at level 6, with hardness 3). Compare that to a Tactical Carbon shield around that level with hardness 8 and 66 HP and 33 break threshold. While also providing twice the circumstance bonus for simply raising it (+2 vs +1). That is again, comparing 3 class feats in Graviton mode, to a single item that works all the time, at the cost of a hand.

There's an argument to be made that instead of spending 3 class feats on Solar Shield, that you grab a caster dedication and get the Shield Cantrip (and some actual low level spells along with it). At least for the 1 shield block reaction per fight you use it on, you'll get significantly more damage reduction (5 vs 1 at 1st, 10 vs 3 at 5th, 15 vs 9 at 9th, 20 vs 13 at 13th, 25 vs 17 at 17th), and it doesn't care which attunement you are in.

I just feel like multiple class feats put into something which might go away mid-fight (and in fact is designed to go away mid-fight), feels like it might be a trap option. Nimbus is at least always usable for the entire fight and really only needs 1 feat to make the reaction start to be helpful (damage reduction and push isn't terrible for graviton). I do agree rolling Empowered Nimbus into baseline would help make it feel meaningful even in the case of a passed fortitude save.

About Flight, I do like the idea of flight being a feat choice with different benefits in the two attunements. A solar wind version versus a gravity pulling one. That at least that means you don't immediately fall down when use Black Hole while flying. Putting it in only one attunement, with the class clearly built around cycling attunement means you're going to need another flight solution anyways so you don't plummet just for using your class abilities.

And I think that's one the biggest issues right now with the feats and class abilities that feel sub-par. Solarian feels like its built around restricting the character, rather then empowering the character. You must use Solar Weapon to use your abilities, as opposed to being an option in addition to normal weapons everyone else uses. Balanced Arrangement and Binahric Attunement requiring dexterity as your 2nd highest stat to mechanically make sense. And it doesn't even provide protection for the Solar Shot triggering Reactive Strike when you are forced to be in melee to use it.

The attunement action is like needing to reload on a melee class. Used Shattering Impact? Need to spend an action reloading your attunement. Used your 15th level Singularity? Welp, need to reload the following turn after that full 3 action ability. And hope you didn't actually kill the boss, otherwise no loot drop for you. Also, don't use it while using your 9th level ability, or else you fall and take damage.

I'd like the Solarian to feel like it flows smoothly between using different abilities and different attunements, and not have abilities simply hard stop. Defy Gravity and Solar Wind should just be always active as long as you are attuned, irregardless of attunement. Maybe less effective, but they shouldn't shut off completely. But mid- to high level play with Solarian right now is looking like it isn't going to play smoothly.

Stellar Rush has two different timings when the attunement benefits apply.  Photon attunnement applies as soon as you move a square, while Graviton applies after you finish both Strides.  When do you make the saving throws for the that Astrologic Sense calls for before picking which attunement to apply? Before you take the two Strides?  Do you get to pick a point on the map and ask who would fail saves if I moved to spot X?  Can you choose not to move to spot X if you don't like the results? Do you pick multiple spots to test saves on and then move to one of them?

In general, would you roll all potential saves/damages before you actually take the action, which might have a variety of end points? An example use case with Stellar Rush would be great for its intended usage.

How would people's ruling interact with a raging Barbarian, or other target that is prevented from taking concentrate trait actions? Would they be allowed to speak an untruth with no Deception roll (and thus truth status automatically determined), or are they always forced to tell a true and relevant answer to the Pointed Question?

Depending on ruling, that might impact what banter a player controlled raging Barbarian is allowed to say in the middle of a rage. No untrue sarcasm for you!

Also suggests the strongest Pointed Questions in terms of information gathering are the ones phrased in such a way that the expected answer is a Yes or No.

Personally, I do agree with Karthak1 that the response is part of the success/critical success and happens immediately. Here, if they choose to respond with an untruth, then the Lie happens with no timing window framed (no phrasing like Lie on their turn, or tell the truth to you on their turn) so it happens immediately as part of the success and part of the action itself. If they had intended it to happen on the target's turn, it would be phrased the target responds to the question on their turn, and the ability would have some kind of duration listed, like Bon Mot.

The only duration is mentioned until end of the user's turn, which isn't even applied to the response part. "Whether it answered truthfully or not" also implies that it has answered by the time the 2nd part of the effect is applied.

Lastly, consider all the actions which invoke other actions without costing extra turns as part of the success. Like, say, Escape. Would you force a player that critically succeeds to spend an action for the "You can then Stride 5 feet" part? It seems to be the same thing here, but instead of the character using Stride, it is the target using Lie.

I also would like to add my agreement with the others that players should play what they want, and should not be pressured into a particular role.

There are a variety of ways to handle "healing". I will your dwarven ranger at 1st level is quite capable of using a cure light wounds wand. 1d8+1 times 50 is a lot of healing for only 750 gp at low level. The GM could make a used, 10 charge wand available on the market in Sandpoint for 75 gold pieces, something purchasable as a group as soon as you arrive.

There are also other options available to the GM if no one in the party wants to play a "healer" but the entire group feels its necessary. A slightly lower level GM NPC could fill that function.

However, to add to other crazy non-standard healing ideas:

Playing the game should be fun, and playing a character concept you don't want to play is a fast route to make the game not fun.

Thanks. I do appreciate the help with brain storming and we'll certainly be stealing some of the ideas you presented. I also do like the movement theme (flowing blade indeed).

Different play styles and experiences are always going to affect value judgements of feats. Which is one of the great advantages of home table top campaigns. They can be tailored to the individual players and GM needs and opinions.

You make a good point about Iomedea's divine fighting technique and battle cry being on the high end of feats, and perhaps aren't the best baselines to use.

On the other hand, the Tempered Champion also has a number of really good feats to take from its bonus list beyond just Divine Fighting Technique.

(Greater) Weapon focus and (Greater) Weapon specialization are solid middle of the road feats providing constant +1 to hit or +2 to damage each, applying to all parts of a full attack and AoOs.

Weapon Trick: One handed can easily get you Stylish Riposte when wielding a katana in 1 hand, turning enemy misses of 5 or more into AoOs (once per day per target). Which will likely trigger in many combats, and with combat reflexes as a requirement, can provide a huge damage spike against a group of lower level enemies.

So perhaps I should be aiming somewhere in between those. I suppose no one ever said coming up with balanced and interesting rules was easy.

I certainly appreciate the discussion. In regards to the flight, I happen to agree, and after some discussion of its repercussions, I've talked the player down to gliding wings (an option for 3 race points), at least at lower levels, which means no active flight, but more of a free feather fall. It is a compromise between "Wings!" and making the GM's job harder for most fights.

With the effective 2 bonus skill ranks coming out of the race builds (skilled + bonus fast learner), the paladin/oracle has taken knowledge: religion and engineering, and the magus/wizard has grabbed knowledge: history, arcana, local, and dungeoneering, as well as grabbing linguistics for Thassilonian. Based on the fact he's been researching the local area, Thassilon, and its ruins. The oracle also has perception as a class skill via battle mystery, and the magus/wizard picked up perception as a class skill via trait.

Thanks again for the comments and for the divine fighting technique idea. I like how you're building them around movement. Neither strikes me as too strong, although the advanced benefit strikes me as too situational when compared to Saranrae's or Iomedea's.

We were thinking things along the same lines if things look like they're getting too tough at higher levels. Although quantified by race points.

For example there is definitely an interest in adding wings to the Aasimar by the paladin player, the only question is at what level and at what cost (if any). There are Aasimar only feats which add wings and flight around 10th level for example. It has been pointed out Strix have wings at 1st, and the advanced race guide prices 30 foot clumsy flight (-8 to fly checks, making it very hard to maneuver at low levels) at only 4 race points.

The magus/wizard was always going to be taking broad study at 6th, which allows wizard spells with spell combat/spell strike, but I like the general line of ideas you suggested.

Lastly, we are planning on using standard hero points, and allowing the spells and items that interact with those rules. We hope that will be sufficient action economy boosts during climatic tough fights.

Thanks for your ideas. I've had some further discussions with the group, and we're not starting until the GM is finished with AP exams, so we've got a few weeks to finalize things.

For the healing, we're definitely planning on purchasing/crafting healing items in addition to the healing ability provided by the paladin/oracle. The paladin/oracle does start with 5 1st level spells which can be spontaneously cast as cure light wounds, as well as adding 6 lay on hands per day at 2nd to the spell casting.

But acquiring a wand of cure light wounds is definitely on the list of to do things in character fairly early on, if not scrolls/potions.

The healing discussion has also led to the paladin's player deciding to take Fey Foundling at 1st level, which will certainly amplify healing effects for them.

As they were already planning on playing an Aasimar, we can probably roll that all into being found and then raised by a temple to Shizuru. We figure that means they'll have perfect etiquette, reverence for elders/ancestors, and great discipline, but might be lacking in general socialization. Should be something interesting there to roleplay.

As for skill points, one of the reasons for the high point buy was to allow for higher int and more skills. But yeah, even with an NPC rogue covering the traditionally rogue-y options (disable device, stealth, perception), the party still felt light on skills as we were sketching things out. So we'd were thinking about that.

The idea of handing out templates is interesting. We floated the idea to take the Aasimar race as a template, but expand on it, and/or switch racials around. This also helps put an effective level on all the high point buy/free toughness and so forth we're doing.

So for example, drop the point buy back to 25 points. But now customize an Aasimar-like race with the advanced ability score modifier quality. Which baseline would be something like +2 Str/+2 Dex/+2 Con/+4 Cha/-2 Wis (4 RP), and buy advanced charisma and advanced wisdom (8 RP). 25 point buy can do 16/13/12/14/10/14, which jumps up to the previously listed 18/15/14/14/10/20, while keeping true to the idea that Aasimar don't have negative stat modifiers. So the high point buy we had is worth 12 RP.

We then use additional RP to buy toughness as a bonus feat for 2 RP. Skilled is 4 RP for +1 skill per level, and bonus flexible feat lets us take Fast learner for another 4 RP. So in total 10 RP for +2 skills and that toughness feat.

Baseline Aasimar is Outsider (Native) for 3 RP, which also provides Darkvision. Lastly throw on Aasimar energy resistance for 3 RP. That puts us at 28 RP. Probably skip the 1/day spell and two skill bonuses.

According the advanced race guide, 30 RP is roughly level+2 in the level 1-5 range, level+1 in the 6-10 range, and level+0 in the level 11-20 range. So averaging over the entire AP, its like level+1, easier in the beginning, harder at the end. Combine with the gestalt rules which are like level+1, and that puts us around level+2 on average throughout the AP. And level+2 is roughly what you'd want for 2 characters aiming to be worth 4.

If we need to add more later, we can simply add some RP to add abilities and up it to around 40 RP or so (worth another level+1 in the 10-15 range). Of course this race discussion also brought wings to the attention of the paladin/oracle player for a mere 4 RP at 1st level. Insert long suffering sigh here.

I'm tempted to do a Tien-Min tiefling with a touch of Oni blood just to be contradictory, given dual talented human wouldn't be the only option in that case.

Lastly, the GM has asked me to come up with ideas for Shizuru's divine fighting technique. Given she's the Goddess of Swordplay, we can't imagine her not having one, but the GM didn't want just a copy of Iomedea's divine fighting technique (which I thought was the easiest option). But the GM gets what the GM wants.

Anyone have any suggestions for what the Goddess of Honor and Swordplay's fighting techniques would be? Obviously something to do with katana.

Yes they are planning on being gestalt. Sorry I failed to mention that, being a rather key point in balance considerations. Not sure how I missed mentioning that.

I wonder if the max HP on top of the already high point buy and free toughness is too much?

Assuming 14 Con all around, and were 4 separate characters, HP per level would be around 6+2+1, 5+2+1, 5+2+1, and 4+2+1, for 32 HP per level for the party. For the two Gestalts, the max hit points, toughness, favored class, and listed stats gets 10+2+1+1 and 8+3+1+1, for 27. So actually, not too much.

Even including a normal stat rogue would probably bump that up another 7 or so, to 34, so still pretty close.

We'll also look at the hero point option for emergencies. And add the NPC rogue to help cover the spot/trap checks, although I expect to see them more in the background during combat.

And the GM has mentioned they had some kind of terrib... I mean great idea for a tiny chaotic good pseudodragon rogue. What possibly could go wrong with the equivalent of an intelligent, flying, lockpicking and pick pocketing house cat who likes collecting shiny things. And then hiding when mean people show up.

This may still end in tears.

Anyways, thanks very much for the feedback.

We happened to have a copy of the Rise of the Runelords anniversary edition lying around, and given the situation going into this summer, were thinking of running it with just 2 players and a GM (basically the family), but trying to minimize adjustments on the GM's side of things to keep the amount of preparation work to a minimum. Mostly because this will be their first attempt at GMing. Also there is a preference not to run multiple characters simultaneously on the player side.

So I wonder if people had a feel how the following would handle the AP. We can always changes things later on if necessary, but its nice to be at least be in the ballpark of the right power level at the beginning.

Tempered Champion Paladin of Shizuru/Battle Oracle with Possessed Curse
Str 18/Dex 15/Con 14/Int 14/Wis 10/Cha 20 (after racial mods), with free bonus toughness feat

Kensai Magus/Diviner Wizard (Necromancy/Enchantment opposition)
Str 18/Dex 16/Con 16/Int 20/Wis 10/Cha 8 (after racial mods), with free bonus toughness feat

The GM is also considering having a single class more normally built NPC rogue tag along depending on what the exact final builds look like. Alternatively, changing Kensai Magus/Diviner Wizard to Slayer/Diviner Wizard would cover more skills and trap finding via talent, but have less action economy synergy during combat, as well as less AC.

The extremely high point buy was to adjust for the fact the characters are MAD, trying to fill in for front line melee while also handling back line casting in a single character. Similarly with the free toughness feat for additional hit points to make up for half as many targets. With favored class bonus going to hit points, this leaves them with 16 and 15 hit points at 1st.

Backstory for the two characters would actually pull both from Tian-xia, of the Tian-min ethnicity.

The oracle's possession is by the spirit of an ancient kitsune general who worked in Thassilon but returned to their homeland after Xin became old, isolated, and paranoid. The spirit never rested easily, and ended up possessing the paladin while she was cleansing some ancient ruins in the service of Shizuru. The paladin has come to the land that was once Thassilon to see if they can put the 11,000 year old spirit possessing her to rest. Plus Shizuru seemed to want this particular spirit as far away from Minkai and Tian-Xia as possible.

The paladin/oracle is in Sandpoint specifically as a student of the faith, coming to see the cathedral while continuing their search for a way to exorcise themselves of the half-crazy spirit. The fact that Sandpoint has one of the few inns in Varisia that knows how to serve traditional Tian-min food might have been a draw as well.

The magus/wizard was also "exploring" those same ruins for more traditional adventuring reasons at the time of the possession. And might have accidentally had a teeny, tiny role in getting the paladin possessed. Given the event drew Shizuru's personal attention, and resulted in said paladin becoming an oracle, Shizuru took a rather dim view to his motivations for being in the ruins and the related "accident".

So he was essentially told to clean up his act. In the form of a divine quest spell without a duration. Although Shizuru did kindly include a discharge clause, namely an alive but unpossessed paladin. He is here in Sandpoint with the paladin, researching everything he can about this stupid kitsune general and Thassilon in order to help get the paladin unpossessed.

Verbal components don't add the auditory or sonic traits to a spell. They add the concentrate trait. So a magic missile cast from 20 feet away would work fine.

A verbal component is a vocalization of words of power. You must speak them in a strong voice, so it’s hard to conceal that you’re Casting a Spell. The spell gains the concentrate trait. You must be able to speak to provide this component.

I'd argue you can't speak within the area of silence, so spells with a verbal component can't be cast within the 10' radius area of silence, but unless the spell has the auditory or sonic descriptor, its effects can reach into the silence area without a problem.

So this thread has certainly gotten me thinking how I'd build a Scoundrel rogue, and the following is what I've come up with, at 6th level, just to make it easier for RoscoeDaLib to compare:

Goblin Rogue Creature 6
Snow Goblin Scoundrel Rogue level 6
Perception +10, Darkvision
Languages: Common (Taldane), Goblin

Skills: Stealth (expert) +14, Deception (expert) +14, Diplomacy (expert) +14, Intimidate (expert) +14, Medicine (expert) +10, Thievery +12, Arcana +8, Acrobatics +12, Athletics +11, Performance +12, Society +8, Survival +8, Nature +8, Games Lore +8

Str 16 (+3), Dex18 (+4), Con 12 (+1), Int 10 (+0), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 19 (+4)

Items: +1 Leather Armor (5th level item), Handwraps of Might Blows (+1 Striking) (4th level item), +1 striking composite shortbow(4th level item), Thieves' tools (Infiltrator) (3rd level item),Wayfinder (2nd level item), Bandolier (healer's tools inside) (0.1 gp), Healer's Tools (Expanded) (50gp), 60 arrows (0.6 gp), Adventurer's Pack (0.7 gp), 28.6 gp

AC 24; Fort +9, Ref +14, Will +10
HP 66

Speed: 25 feet
Melee: +1 striking fist +15, damage 2d4+3 (bludgeoning), agile, finesse, non-lethal
OR +1 striking claw +15, damage 2d4+3 (slashing) + 1d6+1 (fire), finesse
Ranged: +1 striking composite shortbow +15, damage 2d6+1 (piercing), deadly d10, propulsive
Note:Sneak attack +2d6

Arcane Spells DC 22, attack +12;
Spell slots: 2 Cantrips, 1st: 1, 2nd: 1
Cantrips (3rd): Electric Arc, Ray of Frost
1st level Spells: True Strike
2nd level Spells: Illusionary Object (2nd) (Signature Spell)

Focus Points: 1
Focus Spells (3rd): Dragon Claws

Ancestry Feats and Abilities: Cold Resistance 3, Burn It!, Very Sneaky
Class Feats: Trap Finder, Sorcerer Dedication (Draconic: Red), Basic Bloodline (Dragon Claws), Basic Spellcasting
Class Abilities: Sneak Attack 2d6, Surprise Attack, Scoundrel Racket, Deny Advantage, Weapon Tricks
General Feats: Toughness
Skill Feats: Lie to Me (background), Assurance (Medicine), Battle Medicine (heals 2d8+10), Continual Recovery, Confabulator, Glad-hand, Intimidating Prowess

One interesting thing I've realized that if an enemy rushes up to the rogue to nullify ranged attacks/casting, it can pull a very effective, feint + dragon claw + dragon claw solo. The dragon claw damage roll averages slightly more damage damage than a straight Thief rogue (at the cost of an extra action at the beginning of the fight and lack of agile).
2d4+3+1d6+1 = 12.5
If Burn It! doesn't apply to Dragon claw (I think it should but I could imagine some argument over it), its still 11.5 average. I'd probably swap out Burn It! for something else in that case.

For comparison, a 6th level thief likely rolls 2d6+4=11 average in melee, but has access to agile finesse weapons.

The other advantage is the character can trivially switch between melee, ranged, and cantrip actions without issue, as well as provide battle medicine with free hands if necessary (depending on your GM's ruling of that debate). Assurance + Expert medicine at 6th level is an automatic DC 20, so you get the 2d8+10 hit points back for 1 action.

True strike is an interesting option on an opening strike as there's good odds of getting a critical. I could see maybe taking magical trickster at 8th, to provide the option of deception or hide + ray of frost sneak attack out to 120 feet. Or maybe not. Even without it, the choices provide the build with a variety of damage and energy types (slashing, bludgeoning non-lethal, piercing, electric, fire, cold) that it can switch to without any equipment juggling. Plus illusions. And buy some scrolls to taste with the left over 28 gp.

I still think that even with 3 martials having a buffed feint should still see a lot of use. Let the other two do their own flanking, you can do your own. Or go after a solo enemy and apply flat footed yourself. I find in our games with three martials there's usually one pc who can't get flanking.

However, RoscoeDaLib has noted he's taken "Gang Up" which solves the 3rd flanker problem. So basically that leaves the Rogue going off solo and the two martials ganging up one enemy - which is likely going to be not as common as the reverse. Tactically, you'll want to pair the rogue off with a martial, and send the other martial off to solo something if necessary.

Now admittedly, that, and the other situations we've been considering does highly depend on optimal circumstances. Sometimes circumstances will force the rogue away or prevent being adjacent, at which point feint becomes a reasonable choice. As pointed out, various players have used it, but very infrequently.

For example, a non-optimal fight for that party might be something I encountered as a 4 player party in the campaign I'm currently in. At level 3, we encountered a Scorpion swarm (level 4) and a weak Harpy (level 5-1=4). In a narrow canyon. Essentially the fight was the Harpy was using captivating song to draw the swarm to the character's location, and hopefully use the captivate ability to draw the players right into the swarm as well while flying above. And then loot them after the swarm had finished eating.

In such a fight, I feel a Scoundrel Rogue with Sorcerer dedication with Electric arc and/or Ray of Frost would likely fair better than a Thief rogue. Magic can be handy for bypassing resistance or attacking at range, for example.

Admittedly, neither flanking nor feint is likely to be useful in that fight, but starting 18 charisma does synergize better with the Sorcerer dedication compared to starting 16 charisma.

This thread is certainly making me contemplate the build of my Scoundrel Rogue. I'd noticed the lack of oomph as well, since my character had 18 Dex / 12 Str. I've also been finding flanks fairly easily, so I haven't really needed to Feint yet. Since this is a PFS char that just hit second level, I can take a rebuild. That said, I'm committed to the Scoundrel racket, and want to make it more effective. I'm okay with being a Face first, combatant second. I was thinking I'd switch to 12 Str/16 Dex/18 Cha; Studded leather means I'm no worse off AC-wise. Now the question is do I take a Sorcerer dedication right away and lean into that, or wait until 9th level when I can take it as a Human ancestry feat...

If all you're grabbing is cantrips, then I suppose 9th can work. If you're going to be spending feats beyond that, so that you're also getting spell slots and/or focus spells, I'd aim to take it 2nd. Don't discount a charismatic rogue with some low level illusions and other utility spells/scrolls.

Alternatively, if you switch to an Elf, Ancient Elf works well at 1st level if you really want to save the class feat. Also opens up an interesting option of Elven curve blade fairly easily with elven weapon familiarity. 1d8, finesse and forceful.

But for a human, I'd probably go ahead and grab the dedication at 2nd.

The thing is here, by initially playing Scoundrel, he was playing the character that didn't need as much teamwork as the Thief. The Scoundrel is like the Jedi who doesn't need support.

If everyone goes off and fights their own monster, a Scoundrel is stronger than a Thief solo prior to 14th level and Instant opening. The thief with flanking buddies simply gets more benefit than the scoundrel.

The scoundrel wasn't doing bad damage, it just wasn't getting to use all the abilities it had available to it.

Its also a bit magnified by the stats of the character in question. 10 strength, 18 dexterity and 18 charisma at level 1.

If we compare a stat distribution which is better for the scoundrel build in terms of damage output, and compare it to a thief build also using the normal ABCD stat selection process you might get the following analysis for fighting solo.

Consider a 6th level goblin Scoundrel with 16 Str/18 Dex/12 Con/10 Int/10 Wis/19 Cha against a Str 10/19 Dex/14 Con/12 Int/12 Wis/18 Cha goblin Thief.

At 6th level, +15 to hit, and 2d6+2d6+3 for the scoundrel, and 2d6+2d6+4 for the thief using +1 striking shortsword (finesse, agile) Expert Deception on both is +14. Level 6 enemy, moderate percetion DC 24, moderate AC 23.

We'll assume the attack routine of feint, strike, strike, for 2 turns. If they're benefiting from feint until end of next turn already, it becomes strike, strike, strike.

So feint has 50% success chance, 5% critical chance. Except on the 2nd turn, if the scoundrel succeeded on the first, then its 50% success, 15% critical. The scoundrel's applies to all attacks until the end of the next turn, while the Thief's only applies to one, unless they critical feint.

Thief:
So no feint success, implies (0.8+0.5)*11=14.3 expected damage
Feint success implies 1.0*18 + 0.5*11 = 23.5
Critical feint success implies (1.0+0.6)*18 = 28.8
If the crit is 1st turn, that lets turn 2 be 3 strikes, with the 3rd strike adding 0.4*18=7.2

20.25% of the time, no feint success, 45% of the time 1 success, 25% of the time 2 successes, 5% crit success on first, and 2.25% chance of no success + crit success on second, and 2.5% chance of 1 success and crit success on 2nd.

Total expected damage solo over 2 turns for a thief is ~35.47.

Scoundrel:
No feint success implies (0.8+0.5)*10=13
Feint success implies (1.0+0.6)*17=27.2
3 strikes on 2nd turn implies 0.4*17=6.8.

20.25% of the time, 55% of the time 1st feint succeeds, 24.75% of the time 1st fails and 2nd succeeds.

Total expected damage solo over 2 turns for the scoundrel is ~48.87 damage. Or roughly 37% more damage solo. For a non-goblin build, strength would likely be 12 starting, 14 at 6th, dropping damage by 1 per attack, to an expected 45.65 (still about 29% more damage).

Compare to a straight 2-handed fighter at 6th. +17 to hit, 2d12+4 damage. (1.0+0.55+0.3)*17 over 2 turns is 62.9 expected damage.

With teamwork, and free flanking, the a 14 strength Scoundrel at 6th level still does 64 damage over 2 turns. The thief just happens to do more at around 72, roughly 12% more.

The overall damage output of both is fine, with the Scoundrel significantly outdoing the Thief solo, and the Thief slightly outdoing the Scoundrel with teamwork.

It just so happens the Thief is effectively getting flat-footed for free via teamwork regularly, rather than needing to feint in this particular group.

I don't run monsters as assuming they know anything about the party that they haven't witnessed/seen evidence of/had reported. Not level, not favored spells, not who has reaction abilities.

I don't understand how that's even a question.

My thinking was provoked by statements like:

"Yeah, this guy is looking at all four of you and doesn't seem particularly upset with the odds."

Working competency into your descriptions can aid as well.

"He looks amused that you outnumber him."

Which made the fact that an intelligent enemy is standing there, at 4 to 1 odds and not trying to escape imply they must have assessed the party's overall power level without a recall knowledge check, or that they are exhibiting confidence that they have no reason to have. Or the NPC is aware of the metagame Low, Moderate, Severe, Extreme encounter concepts and the players can't be too far out of their league.

Otherwise, why did they engage a larger group if they don't know if they're more powerful than even one of them? Or if engaged by the party, why aren't they spending an action to assess them (i.e. recall knowledge on their gear to get an estimated value), escaping, or trying to talk the party out of a fight?

Here's a silly question this discussion raises in my mind. How does the NPC/creature know the level of the PCs? There are a number of monsters with incapacitate spells. Do they automatically know the level of the PCs, or do they also have to recall knowledge?

I mean, what is fair for the player/character divide is fair for the GM/NPC divide.

Why is the monster looking confident when outnumbered 4 to 1? Has it been studying the characters for their last few fights, or is it assuming the 10th level characters are 1st level peasants (especially if its a party of 4 monks...)

Graystone, out of curiosity, in your interpretation can I use the Strike action to attack into an empty square where there is no creature?

I prefer something like Pathfinder Agent Dedication, Eclectic Skill, Clever Improviser, Halfling Ingenuity or Untrained Improvisation that affects all untrained skills so you can access ALL lores vs training in a select few. This is especially true when you roll for extremely narrow lores that allow for the lowest possible DC possibly getting a better chance with a more generic trained lore.

I'm actually quite fond of the Elven options of Ancestral Longevity, Ageless Patience, Expert Longevity, and Universal Longevity. Its great for out of combat research or when you're on a trip to a pathfinder mission, you can swap in an appropriate lore and have some significant bonuses to an easier roll. Not as flexible on the fly, and generally not as good for in combat monster lore, but still flexible on a daily basis and has more bonus in that particular lore. I have a fighter with wizard multiclass dedication who'll eventually grab the line of feats. Level+4 expert +2 time + Int on a DC 5 easier check is going to be pretty good odds at mid-to-high levels (and no automatic critical fail on a 1).

So, for the record two people (SuperBidi and DeadManWalking) have said I simply don't understand the complexity of the system. When I requested a build to demonstrate - I am given something that at face value seems incoherent because it does not need to be a rogue. Unless, someone is going to make the point that a sorcerer doesn't have more value baked into the class by level 6 to outmatch an extra skill and 2d6 on a single bow attack per combat. This character could just be a sorcerer.

So just to clarify, I thought we were talking about comparing rackets, not classes? I'll point out at level 6, a scoundrel rogue has a bit more than a single extra skill advantage over a sorcerer. The scoundrel only has a single extra skill advantage over other rogue rackets.

A sorcerer at 6th, has 2 expert skills, and 3+INT trained skills plus a lore, and 3 skill feats. A scoundrel rogue at 6th has 5 expert skills, and 6+INT trained skills plus a lore, and 7 skill feats.

Out of combat, the rogue is going to be rolling more types of rolls, and generally better at them. While some of the low level skill feats are a bit lack luster, others are quite solid. Also, it depends a lot on the campaign on how often they might apply. I've seen a teenager playing a Leshy bard with Harmlessly cute (i.e. Shameless request feat gotten at level 1) basically pester the pathfinder society non-stop for aid when not on missions. Or to keep the mcguffin we just brought back. Sometimes she rolls a natural 20...

Although, if you aren't considering the skills as being a balancing factor, is there any reason to play a rogue over say, a barbarian? More hit points, damage doesn't require flanking, and they can do more damage reliably. 2d12+8 (21 average) per swing is solid when compared against 4d6+4 (18 average). Plus options like a 6d6 AoE breath that doesn't increase MAP. Or reach weapons combined with attack of opportunity.

So while we could argue the merits of each class, it looks like to me Superbidi was describing his own character which probably was built to be a party face, capable in all sorts of social interactions with maximum charisma and combined with a lot of expert skills. And was designed to be a ranged attacker instead of a melee attacker. Of course that is a lot of assumptions on my part.

A sorcerer might not be able to fill those out of combat needs as well due to a lack of skill breadth and depth.

I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with your assessment that a thief rogue in melee and benefiting from flanking does more damage than a scoundrel rogue at range.

Even SuperBidi in the posts above says that if you want a traditional rogue that flanks, you shouldn't play a scoundrel.

Yeah and thats why I am asking him if he is benefiting from sneak attack with that spell due to his DM. So I know for sure. Because I can tell you right now it seems questionable because it would struggle to benefit from free sneak attack damage. Which I think is important.

I dunno, even without sneak attack, that is a fine attack routine.

Take level 2. Assume you've got 2 targets within 30 feet. Assume your character's stats. 10 Str, 18 Dex, 18 Cha.

So compare 3 bow strikes with sneak attack against bow with sneak attack and cantrip without sneak attack, against level 2 moderate AC and moderate reflex save, so 17 AC and +8 reflex save.

Base to hit is +2+2+4+1=+9 to hit for the bow, DC 18 for the spell. 1d6 base damage on bow, plus 1d6 for sneak attack is 2d6 per attack. Spell is 1d4+4 to two targets, and 1d6 for one attack.

First attack hits on a 8, crits on a 18. Second attack hits on a 13, crits on a 20, and third attack hits on a 18, and crits on a 20.
0.8+0.4+0.2=1.4 times base damage, or 1.4*7=9.8 expected damage.

Cantrip does no damage on a 20, half damage on a 10-19, full damage on a 2-9, and double on a 1. To two targets.

So 0.8*7+0.75*6.5*2 = 15.35 expected damage. Against a single target, it drops to 0.8*7 + 0.75*6.5 = 10.475.

So in situations where there are 2 targets within 30 feet, the cantrip and no sneak attack is significantly better than 3 attacks with sneak attack. And to be fair, the lone bow shot should get sneak attacks if the other routine is getting them.

As you go up in level, this changes, but it remains reasonable.

6th level its more like 2d6+1d6 rune + 2d6 sneak against 4d4+4 times 2 plus 2d6+1d6+2d6.

Bow is at +6+4+4+1=+15. Spell save DC is +6+2+4=22. Against 23 AC and +14 reflex save.

So 1.4*17.5 = 24.5 expected damage for 3 bow shots. 0.8*17.5 + 0.65*11.5*2 = 28.95 expected damage against 2 targets, or 21.475 damage against a single target.

Still competitive in terms of expected damage, even without electric arc benefiting from sneak attacks.

Im confused why you need to be a scoundrel Rogue for what you have laid out.

Is your DM allowing you to get sneak attack from Electric Arc? Because it's not a spell attack roll, and therefore gains no benefit from magical trickster. Also couldn't literally any racket do as you have laid out? You just admittted you don't even use the feint feature which is kinda the point of my post. There is nothing unique about the subclass, and there is nothing you have described that is complex.

If you're not rolling your stats (PFS, certainly my home campaign is using the base build rules), scoundrel lets you start with an 18 in charisma rather than a maximum of 16. 2 points for race, 2 points for background, and 2 points for one of the four free boosts for a normal rogue is the max. So their electric arc is better with Scoundrel, as it does +1 more damage and has +1 more to hit at levels 2-4, and then 10-14, and finally level 20, assuming you're boosting charisma at 5,10,15 and 20.

So for 9 out of 20 levels (roughly half the game), scoundrel is superior with sorcerer dedication cantrips. +1 to hit, better save DCs, and slightly better damage is the reason.

He might not have taken magical trickster with his build. I was the one that mentioned using it with Ray of Frost. What he does get is a full damage cantrip and a bow attack with no multiple attack penalty. He said the biggest benefit over the other rackets was the extra skill for him (i.e. Deception + Diplomacy vs just Thievery or just Intimidation). As you note, none of the rackets combat abilities help with that routine, but scoundrel helps him more out of combat (plus charisma in combat).

2) Their Racket gives them the ability to make someone Flatfooted against every attack you make for two turns, meaning they don't need support from teammates to set up Sneak Attack, and the Crit Success result is a solid debuff when it lands. This feature also means they're one of the better Racket options for ranged Rogues, as they can more easily take advantage of the debuff Feinting applies and don't need to spread out their physical stats as much.

I'm a bit confused by this, given feinting doesn't apply to non-melee attacks, unless there's a feat I've missed. I think all the rackets are potentially equally good at using a bow, since none of their traits apply, no? You also need to be within melee range of the target to feint and generate the benefit.

However, Rogues do still have access to Divert (Deception roll, they get +4 circumstance bonus if you've already done it to that particular target in the last minute), as well as Hide (Stealth) if there's cover and can add the cover bonus to the stealth roll, so certainly ranged rogues are a good option.

I agree with SuperBidi that a Scoundrel/Sorcerer build can work quite well, especially after 4th level. If you add spell slots with further feats, you can start to mix illusions or other concealment producing spells in to allow you attempt to hide no matter what (or just straight up make you hidden).

Even a simple 1st level Illusionary Object spell can create the illusion of a wall or small building without windows (or maybe arrow slits?), completely blocking LOS and making you hidden to sight, while still allowing you to attack a target multiple times until they spend actions to move over and interact with it, or spend an action seeking it (turning it into a mass slow for 1 round). And even then, its not guaranteed if they roll low on their perception check.

So its totally possible to take Magical Trickster and sneak attack each round with cantrips. Electric Arc + Bow will probably average more damage if you have a way to get sneak attack on the bow automatically, such as with the aforementioned illusion. But Divert/Hide + Ray of Frost also works out to 120 feet. Nothing preventing you from taking both cantrips.

As for the feinting ability of the Scoundrel, I see it bringing more to the table in a party with fewer front line martials and more arcane/primal casters (reflex save spells) and ranged rogues (perception penalty). Also an alchemist in the party can make Poison Weapon go from terrible to OK-ish as it can be used to deliver at level injury and contact poisons created for free every day. Normally an alchemist can't put a contact poison on a weapon, but a rogue can.

Scoundrel rogues also have the capability of being the best party faces outside of combat. Lots of skills, lots of skill feats, and potentially max charisma. Of course, that benefit is highly dependent on the campaign and the GM. In campaigns that are designed to roll with it, it can be awesome and memorable. I've been in campaigns where we've deceived our way through the front door of the evil empire's base, and all the way to our objective.

Lycar, I wanted that fight, but basically only with boss monsters.

I wanted to curb stomp most other encounters, and have an occasionally heroic encounter with someone(s) the parties equal. As a GM I knew how to make that happen, though it wasn't easy. However, since it was basically just at significant plot points it wasn't overly difficult to do, but definitely required invested time.

In PF1 making a challenging fight took work on the part of the GM.

In PF2 they don't really need to do anything, maybe place your party against a couple level+2 enemies. But for players to survive they need to get lucky and work incredibly well together. And that's definitely a shift from how my group got used to playing. PF2 has been terribly lethal, with our GMs often going..."Yeah, we're not going to do X the way it's written because I think you all will die, at least one of you. And since no one has access to life restoring magic...that would leave one of you out for a while."

So why not just fight groups of Level-3 and Level-4 enemies when you want to feel heroic? Between level 6 and level 14, there is an 11 to 12 point difference in AC and saving throws.

10th level martial (10+4+5+2=+21) against 6th level moderate AC hits on a 3, criticals on a 13. Same martial against even level opponent hits on a 8 and criticals on an 18 (your 65% number). Against a 14th level boss fight, they hit on a 14, and critical on a 20.

Level 10 enemies are not CR 10 enemies from PF1. Moderate encounters in PF2 are not Average encounters from PF1. An NPC with character classes in PF1 was level+1, and level+2 if they had gear equivalent to a player (i.e. their magic weapons are up to date - which is true of all enemies now). So that fully equipped 10th level wizard that was a CR 12 enemy from PF1 is now a level 10 enemy in PF2.

There are 5 tiers of encounters in both systems, but try lining up the names sometime.

Easy vs Trivial. Average vs Low. Challenging vs Moderate. Hard vs Severe. Epic vs Extreme.

So another way to think of it, all those moderate threat encounters are "challenging" situations. They're supposed to make you work. The low threat encounters used to be the average one you'd encounter in PF.

If you want encounters to make you feel heroic, have more "trivial" and "low" encounters. Instead of two equal level enemies, have three level-2, or better yet, six level-4. Now you're defeating more enemies than your party with little to no effort.

From the core rule book on encounter design:
"Trivial-threat encounters are so easy that the characters have essentially no chance of losing; they shouldn’t even need to spend significant resources unless they are particularly wasteful. These encounters work best as warm-ups, palate cleansers, or reminders of how awesome the characters are. A trivial-threat encounter can still be fun to play, so don’t ignore them just because of the lack of threat."

If those are the encounters you like, talk with the GM, or run them as the GM. Its not a question of the system, its a question of picking which encounters to create.

What the PF2 system is much better at is having consistency across monsters and encounters. When the encounter includes two level 10 enemies, you know how hard it is. In PF1, two CR 10 enemies could have wildly different difficulties if they were say, wizard or fighter NPCs.

Edit: Is the issue because the label "Level-3" and "Level-4" sounds weak, when in reality they're not?

If all the character was doing was sustaining a cantrip every round and moving, it should not be fatiguing.

The Repeat a Spell action, defined on page 480, can be used to sustain. If you look at the sidebar on page 498, it suggests actions which involve 10 actions per minute (i.e. sustain once per round), is non-fatiguing. A quicker pace, (i.e. 2 actions per round), might have limited use or cause fatigue.

So if they're casting Dancing lights (2 actions) once every 10 minutes, then using sustain a spell once a round (10 actions per minute) for 10 minutes, it shouldn't be fatiguing, as that averages really close to 10 actions per minute.

It is the same reason using Repeat a Spell for the Shield spell (1 action cast), shouldn't be fatiguing either when used for more than 10 minutes.

Fighter/wiz. Pros: true strike, pre combat buffs, lots of all day buffs, spell substitution gives you huge flexibility. cons: lack of one action spells other than true strike, just a fighter with true strike if you don't have a few minutes to intisabate combat.

The Shield cantrip is the other common 1 action spell a fighter might want. With access to specialization school spells, there's a number of focus spell options with 1 action, like Protective Ward, Force Bolt, or Physical boost, for example. Warped terrain as a 3rd action in a round might prevent an opponent from using Step, forcing an AoO if they want to escape.

Casting haste on themselves opens up things like 2 strikes + 1 save spell each turn. Solid for a bow using fighter for example.

If you include the rewind as an "effect of your turn", that's not what happens. What actually happens is that the rewind undoes all "effects of your turn" after the Beacon point, which would include the rewind itself. That would simply put you back at the end of your turn, as the effect that rewinded your turn never happened.

That is also a valid reading, that the spell effectively does nothing, or traps you in an infinite loop forever, preventing the round from proceeding and having the other players complain until you stop being silly. :)

It is mostly a theoretical discussion in any case. Certainly there's confusion about the reading of the spell.

The power level of the spell should be in line with other 7th level spells, like True Target, which provide a couple of re-rolls as opposed to auto-crit fails/successes. As a GM I'd certainly run it as a single rewind, as I'm assuming that was the intent.

"At the end of your turn, you can choose to rewind time back to just after you cast time beacon,..."

Since you rewind to the moment after you have already cast the spell, you obviously don't get the spell back.

So, right after you cast time beacon, you're under the effects of time beacon, no? I agree the intent is you don't get the spell back, but all effects you're under at the time immediately after casting should still be there, no?

Consider the following situation.

The enemy has put a sickened 1 effect on you and your ally cast Physical Boost on you, which ends at the end of your turn.

Action 1: Cast time beacon.
Rewind point: Just after action 1 you are sickened 1, under the effects of Physical Boost until end of turn, and under the effects of time beacon until end of turn.
Action 2: Fort save to remove sickened, fails.
Action 3: Fort save to remove sickened, succeeds. No longer sickened.
End of turn, choose to rewind, go to rewind point.

Rewind point: You are sickened 1, under the effects of Physical Boost, and under the effects of time beacon until end of turn.

Thats the problem. If you rewind to the point just after time beacon, you are still under the effects of time beacon and haven't expended its use.

Or would you have the character rewind and no longer be sickened nor under the effects of Physical Boost?

Its needs errata to say that you rewind to the point just after you cast the spell, but no longer benefit from it after rewinding. I think that an errata like that was what writer was aiming for, but as written, it certainly can be interpreted the way the Excaliburrover presents it.

Just want to point out that I'd agree on a bandolier being related to the action economy... in that it allows you to retrieve an item in one action rather than two (similar to benefits of a belt pouch). One of my first questions as a GM when a player wants to pull out a potion/etc is, "where were you carrying that?" If I get a blank stare, that means it was in a backpack (2 actions to retrieve) because the player never thought to purchase items to carry stuff.

As a GM, I'd tend to let the player retcon the purchase of a belt pouch or bandoleer if they've never come across that rule, because the character is likely experienced enough to know why they're useful even if the player had never encountered that rule. Especially a character who is rich enough to own potions, as they've likely seen a fight or two at minimum.

Of course, my follow up question to yours would likely result in retconning a purchase of clothes as well. I'll note the adventurer's pack includes 2 belt pouches, so most characters created by new players will have them, but no clothes. Any of the pregen Iconics who own armor, don't own clothes either. It is kinda odd, as I've been in social situations in PFS where you were not supposed to be in fullplate and carrying a greatsword, and taking a pregen to one of those could be awkward without some on the fly adjustments if people only realize that halfway through the encounter.