I find this weird.
Secrets of Magic needs a remaster. Guns and Gears doesn't.
This feels like it's being done just because people will buy it, which is the first time in this whole remaster I've felt that way.
We gave them grace because WotC forced this remaster on them. The assumption was that things would return to normal afterwards. But has it instead led to a new business model?
Secrets of Magic doesn't need a remaster, huge swaths of the book need to be fundamentally rewritten.
Updating guns and gears to remaster standard as part of its reprint is likely a much smaller endeavor (backed up by the fact that it's part of the reprint cycle, tbh).
And no, this isn't a new business model, Paizo has been updating books during reprint cycles for years. Stop trying to act like there's some weird conspiracy going on here.
I would agree that secrets of magic is likely more in need of more fundamental reworks than guns and gear. With the massive changes to alignments and schools of magic a lot of stuff seriously needs to get brought in line with the new remaster. But this again will probably be a case of whenever it is time for a reprint is probably the time that will happen but as it is a bigger lift probably won't be for a bit.
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One would imagine the reason they are remastering Guns & Gears and not Secrets of Magic is that Guns & Gears is sold out (both the original and the pocket edition) and Secrets of Magic is not.
If and when Secrets of Magic sells out they will figure out what to do in order to keep the rules content in print.
In the possibility that Secrets of Magic does not sell out, I would guess they're more likely to just include the rules content from that book (subsequently remastered) in a new book (or several). After all Gods & Magic is still available, but Divine Mysteries is still coming out this fall.
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My (barely informed) guess is that Secrets of Magic is effectively gonna get the "Divine Mysteries" treatment, where it'll basically be written into a whole new Remaster "spiritual successor" book with a different name similar to how Divine Mysteries is effectively the Remastered version of Gods & Magic.
My (barely informed) guess is that Secrets of Magic is effectively gonna get the "Divine Mysteries" treatment, where it'll basically be written into a whole new Remaster "spiritual successor" book with a different name similar to how Divine Mysteries is effectively the Remastered version of Gods & Magic.
It would not surprise me if an eventual successor book includes the remastered versions of the classes from both Secrets of Magic and Dark Archive.
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I'm really hoping for an inventor rework or at least for it to have some deep changes made to the class because its easily one of the worst made classes in the system. I said this recently in other thread, but I think the inventor feels like someone that is faking being a craftsmen that somehow stole someone else's inovation but doesn't really know how to use it (otherwise why would it be exploding every encounter?)
The way I see it, the things they invent are unreliable and explode because no one has built the same thing before, it's truly being invented for the first time. Also getting an education at MIT is not an option so inventing is a lot of guesswork without any safety standards to go by. This also makes inventors different from Starfinder mechanics who have better access to training, and 100s of years of information available on the infosphere. There are some species in Starfinder that would be really fun to play as inventors instead of mechanics, such as Space Goblins.
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I mean, I get the idea behind the flavor, but if mechanically you always have a % of failing horribly at stuff it isn't really funny. It would also be kind of cool is that "randomness" either disappeared or became almost non existant in the high levels, but besides overdrive a 20 level inventor seems as reliable as a 1 level one.
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At level 1 the chance to critically fail your Crafting check for Overdrive is 5% (only if you roll a 1) if your Int is at least +1, which is only possible to not have if you take an Ancestry with an Intelligence flaw.
The chance to succeed or better on your Crafting check for Overdrive at level 1 if your Int is +3 (a reasonably average score while leaving room for Str or Dex to hit) is 60% (rolling a 9 or higher), and only gets better as you get higher level and acquire item bonuses and ability score boosts.
Inventor's flavor is that your innovations and inventions are unreliable as you're attempting to work at the forefront of tech (from your character's point of view, anyways). The randomness of Overdrive is one way of representing that without really being too disruptive. You'll have occasional oopsies with it, but like any check if you really don't want it to explode and be kaput for 1 minute you can just Hero Point it.
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At level 1 the chance to critically fail your Crafting check for Overdrive is 5% (only if you roll a 1) if your Int is at least +1, which is only possible to not have if you take an Ancestry with an Intelligence flaw.
The chance to succeed or better on your Crafting check for Overdrive at level 1 if your Int is +3 (a reasonably average score while leaving room for Str or Dex to hit) is 60% (rolling a 9 or higher), and only gets better as you get higher level and acquire item bonuses and ability score boosts.
Inventor's flavor is that your innovations and inventions are unreliable as you're attempting to work at the forefront of tech (from your character's point of view, anyways). The randomness of Overdrive is one way of representing that without really being too disruptive. You'll have occasional oopsies with it, but like any check if you really don't want it to explode and be kaput for 1 minute you can just Hero Point it.
Every single Inventor should start with +4 Int, since there's no reason not to. You can do 18 INT, 16 in your to hit (either STR or Dex), and the rest as you please (but likely Con or Wis, like everyone else).
And you want that +4 INT because, as you pointed out, you have a not inconsiderable chance of failure (35% even with +4 INT at levels 1/2) and also it just adds more damage.
As for Hero Pointing it, you might not have hero points or you might just be unlucky and reroll into another 1.
And not to repeat myself, but neither Overdrive nor the overall Inventor chassis are powerful enough to merit the downsides it has in both Overdrive and Unstable. I can understand the flavor idea behind it, but Paizo went too far and instead of making the class Risk-Reward it makes it mediocre.
The flavor that the inventor is supposed to be on the forefront of technology underlines how weird it is for the weapon inventor to have so much emphasis on the sorts of weapons where there's very little room to innovate like spears and swords and axes and little room to build on ones that involve mechanisms, like guns and crossbows.
Like I get that the player is allowed to flavor their innovation however they want so if they want their glaive to have a chainsaw bit but for the most part melee weapons don't have a lot of mechanisms in them (even today.)
In a sense the inventor walked so the thaumaturge could run. I'm pretty sure I heard some Paizo dev that back in the swashbuckler they thought about adding an auto-scaling skill but decided against it because they thought it was too much, then they added an auto-scaling skill to the inventor but balanced the class in a not very appropiate way, and then finally they landed the perfect sweetspot with the thaumaturge. The swashbuckler recently received a ton of buffs, so I wouldn't be surprised the inventor would receive similar changes to make it more fun to play.
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I think everyone needs to calm down, because we aren't getting a major rewrite of the classes. Sayre already said they are incorporating the errata which we already have, changing OGL language to ORC, and that is it. This isn't going to be a Player Core rework of the core classes.
This is just an errata update.
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The flavor that the inventor is supposed to be on the forefront of technology underlines how weird it is for the weapon inventor to have so much emphasis on the sorts of weapons where there's very little room to innovate like spears and swords and axes and little room to build on ones that involve mechanisms, like guns and crossbows.
Like I get that the player is allowed to flavor their innovation however they want so if they want their glaive to have a chainsaw bit but for the most part melee weapons don't have a lot of mechanisms in them (even today.)
See, now this is something I agree with. If any class in the game should have the best access to advanced weapons, it should be the Inventor because of just how much room there is to doohickey and tinker with already wacky or complex weaponry.
I think Overdrive is perfectly fine having a 35% chance to fail at level 1. Especially since failing doesn't do anything harmful and you can just try again anyways next round. Unstable actions should probably change to be a similar Crafting check against a Standard DC instead of a flat check DC15, since getting one/two Unstable action per combat on average is pretty lame and it would represent your Inventor's knowledge of the boundaries of their innovation increasing.
Also just, like, more slots for innovation mods would be great. Feels pretty bad that there's only 3 choices for your whole level 20 career.
Also just, like, more slots for innovation mods would be great. Feels pretty bad that there's only 3 choices for your whole level 20 career.
But BigHatMarisa, it isn't 3! It's 4!
I mean it takes an 8th level Feat and it has to be an Initial Innovation and that's it.
But it's 4!
Lol truuuue! Honestly, it's kinda frustrating. I wanna tinker with my thingamabob godsdammit!
Maybe a class feature sorta like Fighter's where they get to choose a mod to add to their innovation during their daily prep?
Making unstable a crafting check is a pretty good idea. What my group is probably gonna do is start with a DC 5 flat check which goes up by 5 after every use.
40-50% feels awfully low to me. By level 2 or 4 casters have opportunity to get 3 focus points. Inventor being RNG capped at 1.5 feels bad.
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I would love the remastered gunslinger feats for firearms and crossbows to be expanded to work for slings.
That sounds like a great idea! Maybe they could also FINALLY make slingshots a weapon, as well as make Halfling sling staves function in melee!
Actually... a Gunslinger with a slingshot... Stares off into the distance as 'We Are' plays in the background.
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You have awakened a MIGHTY NEED for a slingshot gunslinger in me.I would love the remastered gunslinger feats for firearms and crossbows to be expanded to work for slings.That sounds like a great idea! Maybe they could also FINALLY make slingshots a weapon, as well as make Halfling sling staves function in melee!
Actually... a Gunslinger with a slingshot... Stares off into the distance as 'We Are' plays in the background.
You are welcome. Really, all we need now are a way to triple wield swords and a long-range grappling spell.
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On the subject of the Remaster, one thing that Paizo will need to watch is the construct companion's immunities. I just realized that the Construct trait no longer has a bunch of immunities baked into it, so they'll need to be listed explicitly.
They were always listed separately in the Construct Companion rules, under "Immunities", so that was a nice bit of future proofing in retrospect.
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I would love the remastered gunslinger feats for firearms and crossbows to be expanded to work for slings.That sounds like a great idea! Maybe they could also FINALLY make slingshots a weapon, as well as make Halfling sling staves function in melee!
Actually... a Gunslinger with a slingshot... Stares off into the distance as 'We Are' plays in the background.
I do wish more of the crossbow/gun specific things were a bit more generic range weapon with a reload. There are some really nice slings in game but feats seem to go out of their way to limit slings access to them.
I think they are going for a very particular thematic vision for gunslinger which slings don't fit well into. I think crossbows were only included so the class could work even when guns were banned, and crossbows feel much closer as a visual.
I'm not sure if there would actually be a problem with slings working; just sharing my guess on why they don't.
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Slingslinger confirmed for future book!
Is that a date for this yet? Or did I miss seeing it somewhere in the thread?
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Is that a date for this yet? Or did I miss seeing it somewhere in the thread?
Product page on the site says it's set to come out February 5th of next year.
Slingslinger confirmed for future book!
But no slingunner.
Really hope they review their vehicles...
Seriously, in P1E, the Sailing Ship could carry 200 passengers. This was downsized to only 10 passengers in P2E.
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Unfortunately I think that particular ship has sailed since sailing ship is a vehicle from GM Core.
I mean, I get the idea behind the flavor, but if mechanically you always have a % of failing horribly at stuff it isn't really funny. It would also be kind of cool is that "randomness" either disappeared or became almost non existant in the high levels, but besides overdrive a 20 level inventor seems as reliable as a 1 level one.
Like how Aid checks work, it gets easier as you level up. Levels 1-4, it's roll to see if you succeed the DC15. Levels 5-8, it's roll to see if you have a small chance to fail. Level 9+, you are rolling to see if you crit succeed.
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I mean, I get the idea behind the flavor, but if mechanically you always have a % of failing horribly at stuff it isn't really funny. It would also be kind of cool is that "randomness" either disappeared or became almost non existant in the high levels, but besides overdrive a 20 level inventor seems as reliable as a 1 level one.Like how Aid checks work, it gets easier as you level up. Levels 1-4, it's roll to see if you succeed the DC15. Levels 5-8, it's roll to see if you have a small chance to fail. Level 9+, you are rolling to see if you crit succeed.
The worst possible outcome of Aid is a -1 to the check.
The most common outcome for unstable is losing all your unstable actions for the remainder of the encounter, and in the case of overdrive, the worst possible outcome is losing an action AND receive damage. It's not even comparable and one is certainly way worse than the other one.
The most common outcome for unstable is losing all your unstable actions for the remainder of the encounter
You never lose an action.
An unstable action is more or less comparable to a focus power that comes with a small chance of refunding the focus point.
I assume you're running them correctly, but a couple times you've mentioned unstable actions failing or described inventors losing actions, which is not how unstable works so I figure it bears clarifying.
The most common outcome for unstable is losing all your unstable actions for the remainder of the encounterYou never lose an action.
An unstable action is more or less comparable to a focus power that comes with a small chance of refunding the focus point.
I assume you're running them correctly, but a couple times you've mentioned unstable actions failing or described inventors losing actions, which is not how unstable works so I figure it bears clarifying.
"On a failure, the innovation malfunctions in a spectacular (though harmless) fashion, such as a belch of smoke or shower of sparks, and it becomes incapable of being used for further unstable actions."
You quite literally lose all your unstable actions once you fail the DC.
I think there's a confusion between losing access to Actions/Activities and losing Actions as in your per-turn resource. The Inventor loses access to all Unstable Actions/Activities, but the ones you spent do at least go through (otherwise it'd be even worse than it already is).
Exactly what shroudb said.
I can't really see how someone can think unstable actions are on equal footing to focus spells. They are so much worse in all areas that it hurts.
I think that even then someone in the legacy system was still able to use 3 focus points in a single combat once if they wanted to, while the inventor is still limited to 1 per encounter unless they have luck. I think something like the new cursebound trait for oracles would work fantastic for inventors. For example, you use an unstanble action and receives a penalty of some kind with your innovation up to a point that you can't use unstable actions anymore because your innovation is on its limit.
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A focus caster could use up to three, but would usually only use one. The Inventor could always use at least one, but sometimes could keep chaining them (especially if you have Searing Restoration and use it out of combat--used it five times in a row once, and then didn't need to stabilize after fully healing everybody).
Yes, they're different. Different is fun. They were about equally strong.
But focus points got a buff. So did Unstable, but a much smaller one. That is true.