| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The alchemist dedication specifies your vials don't recover automatically, but I see no such exception written into the investigator. That's a rather significant distinction. Unfettered mutagen use would really vault the class ahead for out of combat mental skill checks, and unlimited insight coffee is quite the damage boost. Plus, having a replenishing bomb supply lets you get some chip damage in when you botch DaS.
No on VV replenishment.
QA does get you infinite QVs, but only work as acid bombs and need quick bomber to be useful.
I agree w/ Xeno.
If there's no text to explain how the Investigator regains the VVs after use, that does not allow a reader to inject a missing mechanic to recharge them.
Instead, it means they get the VVs aaaaand, that it.
Well, it references the alchemist ability: "Statistics for versatile vials appear on page 58 of the alchemist class." You could argue they just mean the bomb statistics on page 59, though. It doesn't say to reference the versatile vial ability on page 58.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would think that it is difficult to argue that 'ability to get more' is a statistic though.
But I haven't seen the full rules on it.
Yeah, the V-Vials are items in their own right, and thus need statistics / numbers for their damage values, typing, etc. That's a plug-and-play directive for the item, not the Alch's VV-Alchemy Feature.
No on VV replenishment.
QA does get you infinite QVs, but only work as acid bombs and need quick bomber to be useful.
That's for the Alchemist archetype. Investigator doesn't have QA and doesn't have infinite QVs. They don't have QV's at all. They have Quick Tinctures which is not the same.
To answer the original question though it seems like the Invest does get the 2 VVs back every 10 minutes. That ability is baked into the rules for VVs (it's even in the same paragraph) That's why Quick alchemy benefits has to specifically say you don't get more. Quick Alchemy benefits is the exception, getting more back is the rule.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here, I'll post the rules so you can be the judge yourself.
Versatile Vials
You know how to prepare fast-acting chemicals into
versatile vials, special items that can be used as bombs
and be turned into other alchemical items by introducing
special reagents. During your daily preparations, you
can create a number of versatile vials up to 2 + your
Intelligence modifier, which is also your maximum
number of vials. If you’re below your maximum number,
you can gather reagents from the environment around
you. For every 10 minutes you spend in exploration
mode, you regain 2 vials; this doesn’t prevent you from
participating in other exploration activities.
Versatile vials are infused items, and are destroyed
if not used by the next time you make your daily
preparations. A vial you create is always the highest type
you could Craft. See the sidebar for statistics on using a
versatile vial as a bomb. You can also use vials for Quick
Alchemy (see below) and your research field can add to
the ways you can use a vial.
You can store all your versatile vials within your
alchemist’s toolkit, with no increase to its Bulk. Though
versatile vials are physical objects, they can’t be
duplicated or preserved in any way.
The VV Sidebar that contains the bomb statistics isn't on pg 58, it's on pg 59 but these rules texts start on pg 58 so that's what I'm assuming their referencing.
During your daily preparations, you can create a
number of versatile vials equal to your Intelligence
modifier. Statistics for versatile vials appear on page 58
of the alchemist class.
And for completeness sake the Quick Alchemy Benefits(which the Investigator does not have) from the archetypes
Quick Alchemy Benefits: You gain the Alchemical Crafting feat (Player Core 252) if you don’t already have it.
In addition, you gain the Quick Alchemy action (page 59),
which lets you create short-lived alchemical consumables
with a special action, and you can create a certain number of
versatile vials during your daily preparations to fuel Quick
Alchemy. Unless otherwise noted, you can’t regain versatile vials throughout the day the way alchemists can. The
individual archetype tells you how many versatile vials you
can create each day, and might impose special restrictions or
benefits for how you can use them. If you gain versatile vials
from more than one source, you use the highest number of
vials to determine your maximum rather than adding them
together, but you can use the vials for any Quick Alchemy
option or other use of versatile vials you possess.
Probably is just a page number typo. Alchemical Sciences refers to statistics for versatile vials not the rules like many other page references does.
I don't think that Alchemical Sciences is pointing to main Versatile Vials rules in pg. 58 but to the Versatile Vial item statistics in pg. 59.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Damn, there's going to be a lot of day 1 errata.
It's really not funny that so many of these problems are visible from a mile off.
No one would look at VVs and say:
"Ya know what, let's have a cross-class mechanic, a consumable weapon, and expendable resource all have the same name. No problems with that. Oh, and lets add a way to create them on the spot for 1 action. No-no they have the same name, but these are temporary and cannot be used for the primary function of the "real" ones."
Just, like, holy s!$~. Really pushing the upper bounds of "unforced error"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really hate to invoke the "too good to be true" aphorism, but in this case it seems necessary.
Do you think the same Stingy Paizo would intentionally give the Investigator recharging VVs?
I'm sorry to say, but they are rather consistent on the cross-class stuff granting a small number of per-day uses, not recharging ones.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really hate to invoke the "too good to be true" aphorism, but in this case it seems necessary.
Do you think the same Stingy Paizo would intentionally give the Investigator recharging VVs?
I'm sorry to say, but they are rather consistent on the cross-class stuff granting a small number of per-day uses, not recharging ones.
Then what are the rules for Investigators Versatile Vials? Are the Investigators VVs infused items? Are they destroyed at end of day or can you stockpile them? What lvl and type of Vial do you craft? Where can you store your VVs and how much do they weigh? Are they actually physical objects, and if they are can you duplicate or preserve them?
And most importantly for this discussion, do you get any more back during the day?
All of these questions are answered in that paragraph that starts on p58 which the Investigator tells you look at. You have to ignore a sentence in the middle of that paragraph to say "no" to that last question.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really hate to invoke the "too good to be true" aphorism, but in this case it seems necessary.
Do you think the same Stingy Paizo would intentionally give the Investigator recharging VVs?
I'm sorry to say, but they are rather consistent on the cross-class stuff granting a small number of per-day uses, not recharging ones.
Then what are the rules for Investigators Versatile Vials? Are the Investigators VVs infused items? Are they destroyed at end of day or can you stockpile them? What lvl and type of Vial do you craft? Where can you store your VVs and how much do they weigh? Are they actually physical objects, and if they are can you duplicate or preserve them?
And most importantly for this discussion, do you get any more back during the day?
All of these questions are answered in that paragraph that starts on p58 which the Investigator tells you look at. You have to ignore a sentence in the middle of that paragraph to say "no" to that last question.
They statistics for them are clearly separated than the Ability.
Investigator gets Quick Tincture, that works with his VV and Alchemist gets Quick Alchemy.
Nothing in Quick Tincture mentions you getting them back, so you don't.
The ONLY reference to Quick Alchemy is "use the statistics of the VVs" which are extremely clearly separated from the Quick Alchemy ability, even if they are structurally in the same section of the book.
If you want them tomorrow regenerate, you have to insert whole paragraphs of ability text that no one said to do (I can bold words too!).
Nobody here has mentioned the Quick Alchemy or Quick Tincture section but you. The rules for getting them back are listed under Versatile Vials which is a completely separate section. So I'll ask again, if you don't use that section for the rules for Investigators Versatile Vials, what are the rules on an Investigators VVs?
Those listed under Quick Tincture, which is what gives you the VV except the Statistics which you get from where it tells you to get them.
There isn't any rules for Versatile Vials under Quick Tincture!! By your reading the Investigators VVs don't have rules!
So where do you store them? When you make them, what lvl of type are they?
So where do you store them? When you make them, what lvl of type are they?
I mean you can't store your Versatile Vials in your alchemists kit, or always craft your Versatile Vials at your highest type. Those rules are for... Versatile Vials. On pg58.
Do you see where I'm coming from here?
So to recap.
You have Versatile Vials without the Versatile Vials feature that lists all the rules for Versatile Vials and don't have any feature called Versatile Vials and instead just have items called Versatile Vials that have different rules than the feature Versatile Vials. Which is itself different than the Versatile Vials in the Alchemists archetype which does use the Versatile Vials rules from the Versatile Vials feature except where it doesn't, causing it to work identically to the Investigators Versatile Vials item but they didn't bother to just use the Archetypes Versatile Vials or give the same rules exception in the Investigators Versatile Vials item.
D-did I get that right?
No, you got everything wrong (in fact, the FACT that you know that you have no arguments whatsoever shows by you trying to start a flame war instead of giving arguments):
You're the only person here who's getting angry and posting aggressively. Chill.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really hate to invoke the "too good to be true" aphorism, but in this case it seems necessary.
Do you think the same Stingy Paizo would intentionally give the Investigator recharging VVs?
I'm sorry to say, but they are rather consistent on the cross-class stuff granting a small number of per-day uses, not recharging ones.
I mean Paizo said as much in preview material. That the alchemical science investigator's mechanics worked like the alchemist's, minus advanced alchemy. Plus we're not talking about a cross class archetype ability but the main feature of the subclass.
... So to clarify, the consensus in this thread is that versatile vials and versatile vials are entirely unrelated concepts that have nothing to do with each other, and that Paizo misled consumers when describing how the methodology works in preview materials.
A big win for clear communication here (unless ofc you're all wrong).
The best indicator you can't use it which I can find is in the alchemical discoveries feat: "The number of versatile vials you can create each day increases by one if you’re an expert in Crafting, two if you’re a master, or three if you’re legendary." You'd eventually wind up with more versatile vials than the alchemist if you did this, and that seems like it couldn't be intended.
I'm now wondering if the Investigator gets more from taking the alchemist archetype than the alchemical methodology. I think the multi class quick alchemy lets you still create unlimited free vials, which is neat. (I can't remember any feats that significantly improve the free vials though.)
i have no clue where you are getting the "replenish ability" from them since that's not part of any statistic in the item block.
Statistics for versatile vials appear on page 58 of the alchemist class.
Do you own the pdf?
If you do, flip it open to page 58. There is a section on that page titled Versatile Vials. Read it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
i have no clue where you are getting the "replenish ability" from them since that's not part of any statistic in the item block.Statistics for versatile vials appear on page 58 of the alchemist class.Do you own the pdf?
If you do, flip it open to page 58. There is a section on that page titled Versatile Vials. Read it.
The argument is that you're referencing the description of the ability, not the statistics of the item.
The argument is that you're referencing the description of the ability, not the statistics of the item.
i have no clue where you are getting the "replenish ability" from them since that's not part of any statistic in the item block.Statistics for versatile vials appear on page 58 of the alchemist class.Do you own the pdf?
If you do, flip it open to page 58. There is a section on that page titled Versatile Vials. Read it.
Sure, but there's nothing else on pg 58 that line could be referring to. You could interpret it that Paizo made a mistake and what they really meant was pg 59 and the sidebar, and that is a perfectly reasonable change for Your Investigator in Your Games. But that interpretation isn't currently Rules As Written and apparently (if Squiggit is to be believed) isn't even how PAIZO is interpreting it.
You're hyper-fixating on a statblock that isn't even on the page the Investigator tells you to look at. You've clearly made up your mind. I don't know what else to say other than Paizo disagrees with you.
a)Paizo never, ever, said that they are replenishing.
I mean Paizo said as much in preview material. That the alchemical science investigator's mechanics worked like the alchemist's, minus advanced alchemy.
... So to clarify, the consensus in this thread is that versatile vials and versatile vials are entirely unrelated concepts that have nothing to do with each other, and that Paizo misled consumers when describing how the methodology works in preview materials.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Chadyes.gif
Paizo often screws up their promos by claiming something is coming that never arrives. Misunderstanding by the spokesperson, unknown change in development, or malign conspiracy, who can say.
I can safely say based on how the alchemy related archetypes work and the competing investigator methodologies that the investigator does not recover vials on the 10 minute timer that no one but the core alchemist class uses.
Considering the fact that an Investigator can actually end up with more Versatile Vials than an Alchemist thanks to Alchemical Discoveries and the fact that the items they create with Quick Tincture do not have their durations curtailed like an Alchemist does with Quick Alchemy, I think having them recharge falls into TGTBT, considering it'd give you unlimited full duration elixirs. Since the Alchemist isnt even allowed that, neither should the Investigator.
The page number is likely a mistake, especially since page 58 doesnt actualy have the rules on VV, it just starts there.
Can you get Quick Tincture on an Alchemist via Archtype?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can you get Quick Tincture on an Alchemist via Archtype?
Methodologies do not interact at all with the Archetype.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not to be snarky,but do we think they will errata?
There are lots of rules questions that they seem to ignore rather than adress.
Versatile Vials themselves have the Infused trait. It's in the stat block on pg 59. So, definitely no hoarding them.
Given the use of the word "statistics" not to mention that the rules about Versatile Vials on pg 58-59 are, unsurprisingly, very Alchemist specific, I will be operating under the understanding that only Alchemists get to replenish Versatile Vials outside of Daily prep. I am confident that this is the correct interpretation.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now that we have the updated Guns and Gears, I’m curious what others think regarding this issue now. In PC2, the writers placed a specific restriction on Alchemical Archetypes (p. 174) that prevents them from regaining versatile vials in the manner outlined for the Alchemist. They specifically mention the Herbalist Dedication, Poisoner Dedication and the Alchemist dedication.
In the new Guns and Gears we now have the Fireworks Technician Dedication which specifically ALLOWs them to recover versatile vials in the manner of the Alchemist. This does not seem like a typo or a mistaken copy and paste action, since the old version did not have that text. They (Paizo) had to specifically allow it because of the restriction in PC2.
The Investigator’s Alchemical Sciences methodology is a core class feature, not a dedication. There is no reasonable assumption that a restriction placed on archetypes would apply to a core class. Additionally, their ability is limited to elixirs and tools only. This is much restricted from what the Alchemist class is able to do. Having the ability to regain versatile vials does not seem to contribute to the class being overpowered, but does allow them to use their key class feature throughout the adventuring day.
Similarly, we have the new gunslinger’s munition crafting tree. At 6th level they can upgrade to munitions machinist and gain quick alchemy as well as 4 versatile vials. They are limited to crafting bombs and ammunition. Again, this provides the ability for gunslingers to continue to use core class abilities throughout the day. Firing alchemical shots by dosing ammunition with bombs is an ability baked into the class (if you choose to go that route). Not to mention if they run out of ammo, they aren’t doing a lot of anything.
I don’t think the Firework Technician’s ability to regain versatile vials is problematic to the dedication itself, since they are limited to creating fireworks and doing firework “stuff”. This is especially true as many of its abilities require multiple vials. I think the archetype works great as a dedication for any Core Class, especially Gunslingers and Alchemists but could be good for any support class. I don’t think it should be compatible with any other Alchemical Archetypes, and this restriction should be listed in the prerequisites for the dedication. Dipping a level in Fireworks Technician to get the replenishing vials does not seem to be inline with the intent of the rules and gives archetypes too much power.
As many have mentioned, yes a versatile vial is an item that you can throw as a bomb. Statistics for these are found in a chart on page 59 of PC2.
But what is a versatile bomb exactly? “You know how to prepare fast-acting chemicals into versatile vials, special items that can be used as bombs and be turned into other alchemical items by introducing special reagents.”
When you create versatile vials, what level are they? A vial you create is always the highest type you could craft.
Can you duplicate, preserve or save versatile vials? Though versatile vials are physical objects, they can’t be duplicated or preserved in any way.
Amongst others, here are some core classes and archetypes that have access to versatile vials; Alchemist, Investigator, Gunslinger, Poisoner, Herbalist, etc. Do all these classes/archetypes explain or define versatile vials? No, actually it is only found under the Alchemist in PC2 page 58 and 59.
Now consider if a PC takes the Investigator Dedication. At 4th level they take the Investigator’s Stratagem feat, which gives them this:
You play out battles in your head, allowing you to strike when the time is right. You gain the Devise a Stratagem action; however, when you substitute its result for your attack roll, you can’t use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier.
But where are the rules for Devise a Stratagem? You have to refer to the Investigator Core class text to find that data. You see this same mechanism all the time.
Nothing has changed. Alchemical Sciences Investigator still doesn't recover vials. That still isn't ambiguous.
Firework Technician Dedication is weirdly strong for those Investigators, especially since Quick Tincture doesn't have a duration cap on items created, like Quick Alchemy does.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That still isn't ambiguous.
Clearly.
Classic RAW vs RAI:
Arguments for:
- VVs state you get them back every 10 minutes so a strict RAW reading means the Investigator gets them back every 10 minutes.
Arguments against:
- Getting back your VVs every 10 minutes as an Investigator would be too good to be true.
- The fact that Quick Tinctures rewrites that you get your VVs after your daily preparations but doesn't rewrite that you get them back every 10 minutes seems to imply that you don't get them back every 10 minutes.
Overall, I think the Investigator shouldn't get them back. The RAW argument seems too thin compared to the RAI one.