cmarmor's page

If that video actually said "Alch Sci will have renewing alchemical resources all day", THEN it would mean that and RAI would be clear. But it says nothing of the sort and requires people to read things into it and then divine the intent. That's a lot of assumptions for one line in a video to try and hold up and people then only cherry picking certain parts of how Alchemist works while conveniently leaving out the disadvantages absolutely doesn't help at all and has no basis in the available evidence at all.

Actually it isn’t that hard to determine what he meant when he said they intended for the alchemical sciences to work like the new alchemist. Here is a summarized list of the key changes to the Alchemist in PC2:

• * Advanced Alchemy / Quick Alchemy are split and versatile vials added for Quick Alchemy
  
• * Daily: 4 + INT
  
• * Quick Alchemy versatile vial pool: 2 + INT, every 10 minutes in exploration get 2 back
  
• * Master proficiency for simple weapons, unarmed attacks (mutagen) and bombs Powerful Alchemy is a basic feature (Scaling DC to class DC for all Alchemical items for all alchemists)
  
• * Lv. 17 perm quicken for Quick Alchemy
  
• * All subclasses buffed. Ex: Calculated Splash, Healing Bomb, Temp HP on drinking mutagen,
• * poison immunity -> acid damage are subclass features for each respective type.
  
• * No more perpetuals, all studied have have 5 unique class features
  
• * Quick bomber feat is now quick alchemy for bomb and throw it for 1 action
  
• * Additive traits no longer require lower level items to use them
  
• * Bunch of new feats
  

Of all those changes to the Alchemist, what is on the list that the Investigator has in common? Really the thing that changed how the Alchemist played is the splitting of Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy. They still get the daily allotment of stuff they make each morning, and they get a separate pool of versatile vials that feed quick alchemy (instead of sharing reagents). The purpose? Logan was clear, to allow them to do alchemy throughout the adventuring day. Let’s look at the Investigator changes in the Remaster.
 
NEW Alchemical Sciences

Your methodology emphasizes chemical and alchemical analysis, collecting information from unusual particles and fluids found on the scene. You possess enough alchemical know-how to whip up a few tinctures to help you with your cases.

You’re trained in Crafting and gain the Alchemical Crafting skill feat (Player Core 252). You start with a standard formula book (Player Core 288), which contains the formulas for two common 1st-level alchemical items of your choice (these must be elixirs or tools), in addition to the formulas gained from Alchemical Crafting. Each time you gain a level, you learn the formula for one common alchemical elixir or alchemical tool of any level of item you can create. Alchemical elixirs and tools begin on pages 286 and 295, respectively.

During your daily preparations, you can create a number of versatile vials equal to your Intelligence modifier. Statistics for versatile vials appear on page 58 of the alchemist class. You gain the Quick Tincture action, which you can use to turn one of these vials into an elixir or alchemical tool for which you know the formula. If you have the ability to create versatile vials from more than one source (such as the alchemist multiclass archetype), you can use any of your versatile vials for any ability you have that requires them.

OLD Alchemical Sciences

Your methodology emphasizes chemical and alchemical analysis, collecting information from unusual particles and fluids found on the scene. You possess enough alchemical know-how to whip up a few tinctures to help you with your cases.

You’re trained in Crafting and gain the Alchemical Crafting skill feat (Core Rulebook 258). In addition, you gain a standard formula book for free and learn the formulas for two additional common 1st‑level alchemical items, which must be elixirs or tools. Each time you gain a level, you learn the formula for one common alchemical elixir or alchemical tool of any level of item you can create.

During your daily preparations, you can create a number of versatile vials—alchemical concoctions that can quickly be turned into elixirs and tools— equal to your Intelligence modifier. You can use the Quick Tincture action to turn one of these vials into an elixir or alchemical tool for which you know the formula.

So what changed? Very little, and none of the functionality. They changed some references to PC2, did a little word-smithing and added a blurb about getting versatile vials from multiple sources. That was needed because prior to PC2, only the Investigator had versatile vials. Now lets look at Quick Tincture.

Cost 1 versatile vial

Requirements You know the formula for the alchemical item you’re creating, you are holding or wearing an alchemist’s toolkit, and you have a free hand.
You quickly brew up a short-lived tincture. You create a single alchemical elixir or tool of your level or lower that’s in your formula book without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical raw materials or needing to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the end of the current turn.

OLD QUICK TINCTURE

Cost 1 versatile vial

Requirements You know the formula for the alchemical item you’re creating, you are holding or wearing alchemist’s tools, and you have a free hand.
You quickly brew up a short-lived tincture. You create a single alchemical elixir or tool of your level or lower without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical reagents or needing to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the end of the current turn.

Again, almost no change at all, and nothing of functionality. So they changed the alchemist in many ways, the most significant of which is making quick alchemy operate off of versatile vials. They also added a paragraph that defined and described versatile vials and made them replenishable like focus points. Prior to PC2, only the investigator had versatile vials and the only information about them is listed above under “Old Alchemical Sciences.” Versatile vials are a main thing for Alchemists now, as well as many other classes/dedications, so it got a good description and definition.

So if the definition of versatile vials found under the alchemist does not apply to the Investigator, then the Alchemical Sciences didn’t change. At all. So when Logan was talking about the remastered Investigator saying they wanted it to play like the new Alchemist, what did he mean? What else do they have in common? What did they change about the AS Investigator to make them play like the new Alchemist. Other than replenishing versatile vials, nothing else changed.

The ability to create vials during the day is a feature of the alchemist class. It is not a trait of the item. There is no "versatile vials recharge themselves...

Lol, Ok bro, glad your sure. Have a good day.

cmarmor wrote:

I never said it was to "fully solve problems", as you put it. Pathfinder Society games as well as some individual tables adhere to strict interpretation of RAW. The feats I referenced are very much intended to address running out of ammo. You can tell by the very first line of text in the feat. Doesn't mean you cant use it for flavor, and if I were running a gunslinger I probably would just because its cool. Feats for flavor are great, but that was not the main intent of the feats.

'address running out of ammo' IS "fully solve problem" of ammo. No, RAW of the feats is not this. The RAW is you have 4+lvl/2 uses per day (at base) and can do with them what you want (x4 simple cartridges at base). And 4 other uses (VV) for making ones of something on the spot. If they wanted to say 'now your ammo is never-ending' they would've said so. They haven't.

Bro, I addressed this twice already (now 3 times) acknowledging I was incorrect on the gunslinger. Are you just trying to be purposefully argumentative? Troll away if that makes you happy, Lol!

No you are focusing only as it was needed to be an archetype to use its rules and not how it works. The feat points to Quick Alchemy benefits directly.

I have already acknowledged I was incorrect about the gunslinger. As I stated above, I missed the specific reference to the Quick Alchemy benefits listed in the rules for alchemical archetypes. In this case there is a clear restriction against recovering versatile vials for the gunslinger.

Also it's flavour so whatever, and 'learn to make your own' doesn't mean 'fully solve problems'...

I never said it was to "fully solve problems", as you put it. Pathfinder Society games as well as some individual tables adhere to strict interpretation of RAW. The feats I referenced are very much intended to address running out of ammo. You can tell by the very first line of text in the feat. Doesn't mean you cant use it for flavor, and if I were running a gunslinger I probably would just because its cool. Feats for flavor are great, but that was not the main intent of the feats.

cmarmor wrote:

They don't want the gunslinger to run out of ammunition as it basically cripples the class.

That's just so senseless. Is it the class' feature? Just a feat? So what are you even talking about? No, the feat is not there to solve all problems with ammo (why should it?) and it's even optional. Going on.

(Not) running out of ammunition is a campaign problem and is solved together with a GM if they allow guns at all.

MUNITIONS CRAFTER

The feat is there to specifically solve ammo problems.

This is both true and incorrect at the same type. Yes, the Gunslinger does not get Quick Alchemy Benefits from an Archetype. They're still gaining Quick Alchemy Benefits though, and they reference the Alchemical Archetype rules, not the Alchemist (specifically Player Core 2, page 174).

The same goes for Advanced Alchemy.

Now, the thing is, anyone can take Firework Technician and get infinite Versatile Vials anyway, which I honestly think is a mistake from Paizo, but we'll have to see.

Ah, you are correct sir. I missed that page reference to quick alchemy under alchemical archetypes. As a GM I would probably be inclined to allow it unless we were campaigning in an area where firearms are common. Most places they are rare.

Gunslingers get vials from the Quick Alchemy benefits in the archetype in PC2. That says this: "Unless otherwise noted, you can’t regain versatile vials throughout the day the way alchemists can."

Gunslingers get quick alchemy from a feat in their core gunslinger class, NOT an archetype. The restriction you mention is specifically given under quick alchemy for alchemical archetypes. This is exactly my point. They are given versatile vials, but not given the restriction that archetypes received. I think this makes logical sense. They don't want the gunslinger to run out of ammunition as it basically cripples the class. They only get access to bombs and ammo which is inline with class features.

The crux of all of my arguments is the same. Versatile vials are defined in one spot, under the alchemist. Classes and archetypes that get access special abilities from a different class, all eventually refer to the base class where that special ability is defined for the full rules. If something is different about that ability, they spell that out. That is my whole argument. I pointed out the developer's intent because it very clearly supports my argument, not that it was some sort of rules adjudication.

Um, the developer said:

"instead they (Alchemists) have a pool of versatile vials, which take the place of reagents. They are things that can be turned into alchemical items very quickly, and also during exploration they can be replenished. We wanted a way for the alchemist to be able to keep doing alchemy all day."

The wording was clear, the emphasis was clear. "We wanted a way for the alchemist to be able to keep doing alchemy all day."

I don't know how this can be misconstrued. And while many of the Investigators features changed in PC2, the mechanics of Alchemical Sciences did NOT change from APG to PC2. So why comment that they wanted it to function the same as the new alchemists if they didn't change anything? Interestingly, the developer got the idea of versatile vials from the APG Investigator who always had them. Versatile vials as listed in the APG is almost identical text from APG to PC2. The APG didn't provide details about bulk, weight, storage, etc. None of that got defined until they added it to the new Alchemist.

All that aside, I assume you have the same take on Gunslingers who go into the munition crafting tree. At 6th level they get access to versatile vials that can only be used for bombs and ammunition. So you don't believe those replenish either? Again, I argue the developers intend gunslingers who go down that feat tree to be able to craft the materials needed to make their class work. Really sucks for a gunslinger to be out of ammo.

This is a misconception.

The Alch class having a feature called "Versatile Vials" is not the same thing as the concept of VVs being defined there.

.

This exact argument could be used to pretend that the Witch's "Familiar" class feature could be gained because it has the same name issue.

.

Again, a versatile vial is an item like an elixir of life is an item. The item and concept of a "versatile vial" is defined in that side-bar / side box listing out the statistics of the item.

The VV as a concept just happens to be printed inside the Alch class instead of in the alch equipment list.

There is 0 text in the Investigator pointing to the Alch class feature, it only points to the item.

Some text of that alch class feature can be interpreted to apply to all VVs generally, such as the "VVs cannot be duplicated" text, but all phrasings of "you gain, you ___" only apply to a PC with that feature.

Dude, your mental gymnastics are amazing. So according to you, versatile vials are an item which is defined by the chart on page 59. They are also a feature of the alchemist class, which is separate from the item found in the chart. Finally, versatile vials are a concept found in archetypes. This is really some well developed rationales here.

You don't think that maybe, just maybe you are over-thinking this? The rules for versatile vials are really clear and not complicated. Its RIGHT IN THE RULES. They are physical objects or items with two uses. You can throw them like a bomb, or you can add reagents to them to create a different alchemical item. Really its pretty simple. I’m just going to make two points.

• 1. The development team was really, really clear on what they intended. The biggest and most significant change to the Alchemist was versatile vials. In their words they “wanted a way for the alchemist to be able to keep doing alchemy all day.” Versatile vials and the ability to recover them is the mechanism that allows this. Then they stated that the investigator alchemical sciences were supposed to play just like the new alchemist. Without recovering versatile vials, the investigator plays nothing like the alchemist. You get 4 vials for the day and that’s it. Pretty hard to keep doing alchemy all day with only 4 vials. You may not like it, but this was their stated intent.

• 2. You seem to be hung up on the word statistic, as in it can only refer to a chart. Statistics include facts and pieces of data as well as actual numbers. How much something weighs, or how much space it takes up, or how long it takes to collect it, etc. are all valid “statistics.” Just because the chart on page 59 has the word statistic on it does not mean the previous paragraph did not contain “statistics.”

Versatile Vials are one thing as defined in the alchemist class. No need to try to create multiple definitions. In the words of the lead designer;
"they have a pool of versatile vials, which take the place of reagents. They are things that can be turned into alchemical items very quickly, and also during exploration they can be replenished. We wanted a way for the alchemist to be able to keep doing alchemy all day."

They are further defined in the alchemist class. They are physical objects or items that can be used two ways. They can be thrown as a bomb, or turned into other alchemical items by introducing special reagents.

Lead designer Logan Bonner at Paizocon 2024 states the following about the classes in PC2:

"The Alchemist was changed to have two different kinds of pools. They still have a bunch of items they can create at the start of the day, but they no longer have to decide how to balance the items they make at the start of the day versus ones they make during battle … instead they have a pool of versatile vials, which take the place of reagents. They are things that can be turned into alchemical items very quickly, and also during exploration they can be replenished. We wanted a way for the alchemist to be able to keep doing alchemy all day."

Later he says the following about the Investigator:
"The Investigator methodologies changed ... and the Alchemical Sciences changed to be like the new alchemist."

The intent seems pretty clear. The investigator doesn't get quick alchemy. They get their own ability called quick tincture because it differs quite a lot from quick alchemy. Normally when Paizo gives access to an ability from another class (usually from a dedication), they specify what is different, then reference the base class the ability comes from. They don't provide multiple definitions in each instance. If the desired ability is significantly different they create a new ability (i.e. quick tincture).

The investigator alchemical sciences says they get versatile vials and specifies the number they get. This is spelled out because it is DIFFERENT from what the alchemist gets. Otherwise it can be assumed versatile vials are the same. If they were intended to be markedly different (than as designed in the alchemist class) then the designers would have made them unique to the investigator like they did with quick tincture.

For example, consider a few other special abilities from classes that can be acquired with dedications and feats;

• Ranger's Hunt Prey
• Investigator's Devise a Stratagem
• Rogues' Sneak Attack
• Magus' Spellstrike

All these special abilities are defined in the core class. The dedication outlines what is different and then references the book and page of the core class where the ability is defined.

Now that we have the updated Guns and Gears, I’m curious what others think regarding this issue now. In PC2, the writers placed a specific restriction on Alchemical Archetypes (p. 174) that prevents them from regaining versatile vials in the manner outlined for the Alchemist. They specifically mention the Herbalist Dedication, Poisoner Dedication and the Alchemist dedication.

In the new Guns and Gears we now have the Fireworks Technician Dedication which specifically ALLOWs them to recover versatile vials in the manner of the Alchemist. This does not seem like a typo or a mistaken copy and paste action, since the old version did not have that text. They (Paizo) had to specifically allow it because of the restriction in PC2.

The Investigator’s Alchemical Sciences methodology is a core class feature, not a dedication. There is no reasonable assumption that a restriction placed on archetypes would apply to a core class. Additionally, their ability is limited to elixirs and tools only. This is much restricted from what the Alchemist class is able to do. Having the ability to regain versatile vials does not seem to contribute to the class being overpowered, but does allow them to use their key class feature throughout the adventuring day.

Similarly, we have the new gunslinger’s munition crafting tree. At 6th level they can upgrade to munitions machinist and gain quick alchemy as well as 4 versatile vials. They are limited to crafting bombs and ammunition. Again, this provides the ability for gunslingers to continue to use core class abilities throughout the day. Firing alchemical shots by dosing ammunition with bombs is an ability baked into the class (if you choose to go that route). Not to mention if they run out of ammo, they aren’t doing a lot of anything.

I don’t think the Firework Technician’s ability to regain versatile vials is problematic to the dedication itself, since they are limited to creating fireworks and doing firework “stuff”. This is especially true as many of its abilities require multiple vials. I think the archetype works great as a dedication for any Core Class, especially Gunslingers and Alchemists but could be good for any support class. I don’t think it should be compatible with any other Alchemical Archetypes, and this restriction should be listed in the prerequisites for the dedication. Dipping a level in Fireworks Technician to get the replenishing vials does not seem to be inline with the intent of the rules and gives archetypes too much power.

As many have mentioned, yes a versatile vial is an item that you can throw as a bomb. Statistics for these are found in a chart on page 59 of PC2.

But what is a versatile bomb exactly? “You know how to prepare fast-acting chemicals into versatile vials, special items that can be used as bombs and be turned into other alchemical items by introducing special reagents.”
When you create versatile vials, what level are they? A vial you create is always the highest type you could craft.
Can you duplicate, preserve or save versatile vials? Though versatile vials are physical objects, they can’t be duplicated or preserved in any way.

Amongst others, here are some core classes and archetypes that have access to versatile vials; Alchemist, Investigator, Gunslinger, Poisoner, Herbalist, etc. Do all these classes/archetypes explain or define versatile vials? No, actually it is only found under the Alchemist in PC2 page 58 and 59.

Now consider if a PC takes the Investigator Dedication. At 4th level they take the Investigator’s Stratagem feat, which gives them this:

You play out battles in your head, allowing you to strike when the time is right. You gain the Devise a Stratagem action; however, when you substitute its result for your attack roll, you can’t use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier.

But where are the rules for Devise a Stratagem? You have to refer to the Investigator Core class text to find that data. You see this same mechanism all the time.

Sorry, I'm behind schedule. Had a medical issue which kind of distracted me for the last few weeks.

I don't suppose you ever finished editing the list of rumors spreadsheet? If you didn't could you possibly email a copy (since you can't post it because of Paizo content).

You can send it to me at cmarmorATyahooDOTcom

I'm getting ready to kickoff this campaign and it would be a great help.

Thanks

In hindsight, I should have distinguished the family names used in the AP from made-up ones. My schedule is jammed right now, but if I get time to update it, I'll let you know.

Thanks!

I haven't used Google Docs like this before, so hope it works.

Here it is.

There are two pages, one for nobility and one for non-noble families. A lot of the professions are incomplete, but you can add whatever you feel.

Excellent! many thanks!

cmarmor wrote:

Treppa,

This is an excellent idea. I'm getting to run this campaign for my group soon, any chance you'd care to share your work?

Oh, shoot, it's horribly ugly. Give me a day or two to clean it up and make it more user-friendly. Do you have Excel?

Yes I have Excel, and thanks!

I took the major families given and made a (big damned) hierarchy of noble houses, including the last names of professional or noble NPC's they will meet in the adventures. If the players were nobility, I gave them a name that fit into this structure and gave them the houses they were ultimately beholden to. Since the city background said there were about 250 families who claimed to be noble, I put about that many names in the chart, though some were 'orphan' families that nobody could directly connect to another.

This gave them connections to other families in the AP (and each other), and some connection to the high nobles, whether by duty or blood. I gave the families a 'vocation' as well, or an area in which they had direct control of major activities in the city.

It also gave me a pool of last names for NPC's without any, or for ones I needed to make up in the course of the adventure.

This was a pretty long process, but it added a lot of depth and got the players immersed. We also had a long campaign with lots of side quests, so it was worth the effort.

Treppa,

This is an excellent idea. I'm getting to run this campaign for my group soon, any chance you'd care to share your work?

I designed my paladin player's family crest for our Kingmaker campaign: part per pale azure and argent, a horse rampant counterchanged. It can be seen here.

Ambrus, what program did you use to make this? Very nice!

Wow, very nice work! Please continue to post your progress. Will you be uploading any finished versions? I was planning on doing exactly what you have done for when my group gets around to playing this AP. Haven't gotten around to starting the map yet since my CC3 skills suck.

Further to the Eastern edge of the map thread, I added the Restov and Iobaria maps to my comparison collage.

See here.

I'll gladly pull these maps down if any Paizo folk ask me to but I kept the resolutions low and the colours false and just have them together for community comparison.

Greycloak, could you email me a hi res copy of your map? I'd like to use it as the base in creating my own campaign map of the area with Campaign Cartographer ( or perhaps photoshop). My email is cmarmor@yahoo

I was hoping to find a nice campaign map of the area my group could use. As an AP subscriber I own all the modules (which contains maps), but I don't want to spoil the surprise as I am going through this AP as a player.

I think I'll take a stab at creating my own campaign map using maps of the River Kingdoms, Brevoy and Iobarra as my model. This may take a while, but if I come up with anything decent I'll post it.

I've been following a thread that has been discussing tweaking the currently supplied maps of the Stolen Lands to correctly fit in the published maps of the River Kingdoms and Golarion.

I wonder if anyone has undertaken the creation of a complete map of the area, perhaps in Campaign Cartographer or similar software. I've been considering taking a swipe at it but don't want to duplicate someone else's work (and I hate to reinvent the wheel).

I greatly prefer a digital map such as this so I can print it in one sheet and laminate it, vice patching together the map pack (which doesn't include any of the surrounding area.

Anyone??

Ambrus,

I'd love a copy of what you have come up with. We are also planning on extending south to the Mivon area. Could you email it to me, since you probably can't post it?

cmarmor@yahoo