The new Sorcerer


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Sovereign Court

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Deriven Firelion wrote:
I changed it my home campaigns and it makes the previously prepared casters more fun to play without breaking the game. Which is what I love about PF2. I literally got rid of signature spells and prepared casting. Made everything spontaneous and everything signature spells, game worked just fine. Absolutely broke nothing. I made enemy casters the same way. Balanced it all out. Required a few short paragraphs of house rules.

I've been thinking about this too - I think the old rigid split between spontaneous and prepared casting is pretty much over. Has been for a long time, since in PF1 prepared casters could jack up ability scores to get soooo many spells per day while spontaneous could inflate the amount of spells known, so the difference became marginal.

The way I'd been looking at was to make wizards spontaneous too, but simulate the "book learning" vibe by letting them shift a couple spells in their repertoire every morning. Like sorcerers do with Arcane Evolution, but maybe one spell of every rank.

That way, wizards still excel in adaptability and strategy. I think it could work quite well because:
- people rarely change their ENTIRE spell loadout every day anyway
- spontaneous casting is just a more ergonomic playstyle

If there's no prepared casting anymore, suddenly it's also fine to make all spells function like signature spells. Since you don't need that difference to compensate prepared casters.

It's shedding a lot of complexity: only one spell slot system, and no difference in which spells can heighten.

What did you do with the "know-all" cleric and druid though?


nothing fundamental about this class are changed

some focus spell and blood magic change are nice

was hoping for more feat that cost hp like blood component substitution

would make a lot of sense for sorcerer

hope for future archetype to do that instead


What the hell Ancestral Memories? How is no one talking about this? That is insane. 1 action for up to a -3 no save, no check status penalty to the next spell you cast or a +3 status to the next spell attack roll?

Now I must make an Imperial sorcerer. That is nuts.


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The new crossblooded Evolution can be used to get the bonus damage from bloodlines like infernal or elemental on any bloodline now. Just pointing this out since it didn't really occure to me until now. It's a kinda-sorta replacement for dangerous sorcery, maybe? (I know dangerous sorcery is still there technically but the option to buff you'd damage with a feat is always nice to have.)


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Blave wrote:
PlantThings wrote:

Imperial being my favorite bloodline, it makes me feel elated it got some love. But apparently, maybe a bit too much?

Did its other focus spells, Extend Spell and Arcane Countermeasure, get any changes too?

Countermeasure is the same AFAIK.

Thanks for the info!

Nice to hear about Countermeasure, one of my favorites. The old Extend Spell was so narrow to what it could apply to that I'm honestly glad to hear it change into anything more flexible. But we'll have to see the whole picture on all of these new blood magic changes.


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John R. wrote:
I don't see how the Sorcerer invalidates the Wizard.... I would just pick up Sorcerer multiclass and take imperial for the new ancestral memories. I'm personally a fan of spell substitution but I can see spell blending fans drool over ancestral memories now.

I consider a class disappointing if I feel compelled to archetype to get to a reasonable level of balance.

Wizards will archetype into Sorcerer to get the Tap into Blood level 1 feat for the Recall Knowledge with Arcane about anything and the Ancestral Memories (via level 6 archetype feat Bloodline Spell). In fact many other classes will too. The class that can't get this is the Sorcerer that is every other type of Sorcerer. As Cross Blooded Evolution gives you the much less powerful blood magic effects.

I predict it will be come as popular as Psychic archetype for those good amped focus cantrips.

Maybe also Oracle for low level cursebound feats will be popular too. Some of those powers are very strong as well.

I like the classes having strong flavoursome powers. I like that each class has a protected niche. It feels bad when the protected part of a class is not great, and you can pick the eyes out of a class. My concern being Sorcerer and Oracle are about to join Psychic in this.


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Finoan wrote:
Gortle wrote:

Crossblooded Evolution has been removed from the game, by replacing with a so so feat of the same name.

I empathise with Paizo's position in reinforcing the boundaries between the magical traditions so a handful of high powered spells don't dominate the game. But I also don't think they have done themselves any favours over the last few years in this regard. Their new spells don't sit well inside one tradition anymore, and sometimes add abilities that used to belong in other traditions. Examples being: Ooze Form for Occult and Albatross Curse for Primal.

I'm trying to understand the logic of the argument here.

Originally, the traditions had fewer spells and there were types of mechanics that weren't available on the spell lists of certain traditions. The most obvious one being healing unavailable on the Arcane tradition. But that is certainly not the only one.

And originally, Crossblooded Evolution allowed Sorcerer to easily snag the best spells from another tradition to fill those gaps in their primary tradition.

But now that the tradition lists themselves have more of those gaps filled, such as Ooze Form on the Occult list and Albatross Curse on the Primal list, then the value of Crossblooded Evolution is significantly reduced since any caster of a particular tradition can get the spells needed to do the mechanics that they want.

All I was saying with those particular spells is that Paizo have not respected the unwritten limits of and barrier between the traditions and classes. Features have crept in that probably shouldn't have.

The former Crossblooded Evolution was used by 90ish percent of all sorcerer to grab the most powerful spell that they didn't have in their tradition. Eg Heal or Synesthesia or Slow or Wall of Stone. It was so common it became the Sorcerers core identity. People were already stealing Dangerous Sorcery. Both these are gone.

Finoan wrote:

So Crossblooded Evolution was changed significantly to do something more useful than give access to spells that have near equivalents inside the character's primary tradition.

And this is a bad thing.

Am I understanding that correctly?

Maybe that Crossblooded Evolution was nixed in an effort to help restore these barriers.

The new Crossblood Evolution is almost useless and just one option among many to gain a better blood magic effect. There are now half a dozen Sorcerer feats that do similar things and really one or two are enough. None are powerful but they are mostly no action or single action so you do want some. The change was done to try to make Bloodline magic and Sorcerous Potency (=Dangerous Sorcery) the signature abilities of a sorcery.

Sorcerous Potency has achieved its goal. As it is free, almost everyone will be happy with it. I'm not sure about everything else in the Sorcerer class though.

I remain hopeful that someone will show me how awesome the new Crossblood Evolution is, and the great metagame involving Blood Magic.


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Crossblooded evolution as it used to be was WILDLY inappropriate and absolutely not something a sorcerer should be able to do and it getting removed is without a shadow of a doubt a good thing


Gortle wrote:
Finoan wrote:
Gortle wrote:

Crossblooded Evolution has been removed from the game, by replacing with a so so feat of the same name.

I empathise with Paizo's position in reinforcing the boundaries between the magical traditions so a handful of high powered spells don't dominate the game. But I also don't think they have done themselves any favours over the last few years in this regard. Their new spells don't sit well inside one tradition anymore, and sometimes add abilities that used to belong in other traditions. Examples being: Ooze Form for Occult and Albatross Curse for Primal.

I'm trying to understand the logic of the argument here.

Originally, the traditions had fewer spells and there were types of mechanics that weren't available on the spell lists of certain traditions. The most obvious one being healing unavailable on the Arcane tradition. But that is certainly not the only one.

And originally, Crossblooded Evolution allowed Sorcerer to easily snag the best spells from another tradition to fill those gaps in their primary tradition.

But now that the tradition lists themselves have more of those gaps filled, such as Ooze Form on the Occult list and Albatross Curse on the Primal list, then the value of Crossblooded Evolution is significantly reduced since any caster of a particular tradition can get the spells needed to do the mechanics that they want.

All I was saying with those particular spells is that Paizo have not respected the unwritten limits of and barrier between the traditions and classes. Features have crept in that probably shouldn't have.

The former Crossblooded Evolution was used by 90ish percent of all sorcerer to grab the most powerful spell that they didn't have in their tradition. Eg Heal or Synesthesia or Slow or Wall of Stone. It was so common it became the Sorcerers core identity. People were already stealing Dangerous Sorcery. Both these are gone.

Finoan wrote:
So Crossblooded Evolution was changed significantly to do
...

There are other good feats in the sorcerer kit. 4 slots is pretty nice. Occult Evolution and Arcane Evolution are pretty nice. Focus spells usable all day are pretty nice. Charisma skills are pretty nice.

What were my go to sorc feats?

Arcane or Occult Evolution
Reach Spell (everyone has this)
Second focus spells at level 6
Crossblood Evolution level 8
Third Focus spell level 10
16th level mental Evolution
18th Effortless Concentration
20th level: Generally extra 20th level slot

Toss in rogue archetype at level 2 and some skill mastery feats with maybe mobility.

I do want to take a look at the oracle. But so far the cleric, druid, and bard aren't looking to fall off as top casters any time soon.


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While imperial has been buffed into the stars i feel like there are other bloodlines that changed for the better.
Take hag for example, got its bloodmagic damage doubled and now if no one hits you you can turn it into temporary hit points. Also some of the spell got swapped for better ones (quandary and phantasmagoria are pretty nice). I feel pretty hyped for sorcerers, it is going to be hard to choose from this and swashbuckler


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PlantThings wrote:
Imperial being my favorite bloodline, it makes me feel elated it got some love. But apparently, maybe a bit too much?

I don't think that's "a bit too much" because you still use a focus point and an action to get the status bonus to your attack spells/penalty to an enemy save vs your spell. This makes it to compete with other focus spells and other spells that uses your 3rd action like many sustainable spells. But it's a earlier good way to get a pretty strong use of your 3rd action and your focus points as a Imperial Sorcerer.

So in terms of balance between other bloodlines is OK IMO. The point that this focus spell looks so powerful is that the Imperial Sorcerer is in a place that partially competes with wizards (because both are 6HP unarmored arcane casters that can cast "4 spells" per rank) but wizards doesn't get even the half of the sorcerer "firepower" and due how good Ancestral Memories focus spell is when compared to the poor focus spell available to wizards.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

What the hell Ancestral Memories? How is no one talking about this? That is insane. 1 action for up to a -3 no save, no check status penalty to the next spell you cast or a +3 status to the next spell attack roll?

Now I must make an Imperial sorcerer. That is nuts.

Everyone is talking about this you that just notice this now. kkkkk


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Deriven Firelion wrote:

What the hell Ancestral Memories? How is no one talking about this? That is insane. 1 action for up to a -3 no save, no check status penalty to the next spell you cast or a +3 status to the next spell attack roll?

Now I must make an Imperial sorcerer. That is nuts.

Everyone was, everyone was talking about how it is now something every caster will be tempted to take


Blave wrote:
The new crossblooded Evolution can be used to get the bonus damage from bloodlines like infernal or elemental on any bloodline now. Just pointing this out since it didn't really occure to me until now. It's a kinda-sorta replacement for dangerous sorcery, maybe? (I know dangerous sorcery is still there technically but the option to buff you'd damage with a feat is always nice to have.)

Yes Crossblooded Evolution can be used like a "nerfed version" of Dangerous Sorcery for other sorcerer's bloodlines that's the why I like it while many people are disdaining it. It allow other bloodlines to get some good blood magic effects from other bloodlines like as you well pointed the extra damage per spell rank that elementals and infernal bloodlines get vs an enemy when using a gift spell or sorcerer focus spell is now avaliable for other bloodlines.

That said it works well for sorcerers only because it works only with gift spells/sorcerer focus spell but take it with a wizard is almost useless. At same time the sorcerer still have "dangerous sorcery" (Sorcery Potency) enable by default so like happens in legacy version both blood magic and Sorcery Potency are cumulative but vs a single target only.
So it increases internal options for sorcerers only and removes the possibility of other casters to take some of the sorcerers "firepower" via archetypes.


AestheticDialectic wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

What the hell Ancestral Memories? How is no one talking about this? That is insane. 1 action for up to a -3 no save, no check status penalty to the next spell you cast or a +3 status to the next spell attack roll?

Now I must make an Imperial sorcerer. That is nuts.

Everyone was, everyone was talking about how it is now something every caster will be tempted to take

I see. Old Man Robot actually listed what it does, everyone else was talking around it. I had no idea it was that powerful. Gortle's original post made me think it was some better RK focus spell like before.

But now it's a whole other level of power.


YuriP wrote:
Blave wrote:
The new crossblooded Evolution can be used to get the bonus damage from bloodlines like infernal or elemental on any bloodline now. Just pointing this out since it didn't really occure to me until now. It's a kinda-sorta replacement for dangerous sorcery, maybe? (I know dangerous sorcery is still there technically but the option to buff you'd damage with a feat is always nice to have.)

Yes Crossblooded Evolution can be used like a "nerfed version" of Dangerous Sorcery for other sorcerer's bloodlines that's the why I like it while many people are disdaining it. It allow other bloodlines to get some good blood magic effects from other bloodlines like as you well pointed the extra damage per spell rank that elementals and infernal bloodlines get vs an enemy when using a gift spell or sorcerer focus spell is now avaliable for other bloodlines.

That said it works well for sorcerers only because it works only with gift spells/sorcerer focus spell but take it with a wizard is almost useless. At same time the sorcerer still have "dangerous sorcery" (Sorcery Potency) enable by default so like happens in legacy version both blood magic and Sorcery Potency are cumulative but vs a single target only.
So it increases internal options for sorcerers only and removes the possibility of other casters to take some of the sorcerers "firepower" via archetypes.

Does Blood Magic still stack with the status bonus from Dangerous Sorcery class ability? Can you choose two so you can switch up effects?


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As far as I can tell they should still stack. Would make the Blood Magic rather pointless otherwise now that Dangerous Sorcery is a baseline feature.

I think you can take Crossblooded only once, so if you want two different damage types, you'd need to start with a bloodline granting extra damage and then use Crossblooded to pickup the Blood Magic effect of another one.

It also looks like the old APG bloodlines haven't been remastered in PC2. So if you want to stick with remaster content, Infernal and Elemental are your only +damage options. And I think if you pock elementllal, you have to choose your element/damage type once upon taking crossblooded.


Deriven Firelion wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Blave wrote:
The new crossblooded Evolution can be used to get the bonus damage from bloodlines like infernal or elemental on any bloodline now. Just pointing this out since it didn't really occure to me until now. It's a kinda-sorta replacement for dangerous sorcery, maybe? (I know dangerous sorcery is still there technically but the option to buff you'd damage with a feat is always nice to have.)

Yes Crossblooded Evolution can be used like a "nerfed version" of Dangerous Sorcery for other sorcerer's bloodlines that's the why I like it while many people are disdaining it. It allow other bloodlines to get some good blood magic effects from other bloodlines like as you well pointed the extra damage per spell rank that elementals and infernal bloodlines get vs an enemy when using a gift spell or sorcerer focus spell is now avaliable for other bloodlines.

That said it works well for sorcerers only because it works only with gift spells/sorcerer focus spell but take it with a wizard is almost useless. At same time the sorcerer still have "dangerous sorcery" (Sorcery Potency) enable by default so like happens in legacy version both blood magic and Sorcery Potency are cumulative but vs a single target only.
So it increases internal options for sorcerers only and removes the possibility of other casters to take some of the sorcerers "firepower" via archetypes.

Does Blood Magic still stack with the status bonus from Dangerous Sorcery class ability? Can you choose two so you can switch up effects?

Yes it still stack because diabolic and elemental still are extra damages while Sorcerous Potency is a status bonus and that's the idea.

But you can't "choose two" crossblooded there's no special permission to get more than one Crossblooded Evolution. You can only switch between use user own blood magic from your bloodline or a blood magic from the crossblooded or another blood magic effect from another blood magic feat like Propelling Sorcery.


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Some Blood Magic combos are Explosion of Power+anoint ally on a frontliner so you can trigger explosions with them. Anoint Ally can be used as a custom exploratory action so you don't even lose actions on the first turn. Then just spam triggering spells and you can get consistently do 2
(SPellrank)D6 on a basic reflex.

Propelling Sorcery is just good, free steps or reposition.

Blood Rising is a bit campaign dependent but it is useful if you have a penalty inflicting blood magic. Very fun, especially if you're a hag

Reflect Harm i don't think is great but it is funny to use.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:

I see. Old Man Robot actually listed what it does, everyone else was talking around it. I had no idea it was that powerful. Gortle's original post made me think it was some better RK focus spell like before.

But now it's a whole other level of power.

Ancestral Memories gives you +1/2/3 to spell attack or an enemy within 60 ft -1/-2/-3 to a save for a single action and triggers your bloodmagic

Bloodmagic gives you +1 AC or a +1 to a Save, or you can swap it for another effect via a feat.
Then you cast your two action spell and watch your enemy fail badly with his -3 save.

Alternative blood magic use includes Tap in Blood which allows a RK using Arcana for anything. But that requires an action so maybe you will only use that with a 2 action blood magic. It is still OK as it only costs you one level 1 feat and you can't crit fail. Of course you'll take Dubious Knowledge as well.

There is a whole lot more in blood magic. Yes you could work it so Imperial gets Sorcerous Potency +1 status bonus per level to damage as well as +1 damage per spell level from Elemental Blood Magic via CrossBlooded Evolution to Force Barrage. But I think it would screw up the damage type to Fire or Bludgeoning.


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Gortle wrote:
John R. wrote:
I don't see how the Sorcerer invalidates the Wizard.... I would just pick up Sorcerer multiclass and take imperial for the new ancestral memories. I'm personally a fan of spell substitution but I can see spell blending fans drool over ancestral memories now.

I consider a class disappointing if I feel compelled to archetype to get to a reasonable level of balance.

Wizards will archetype into Sorcerer to get the Tap into Blood level 1 feat for the Recall Knowledge with Arcane about anything and the Ancestral Memories (via level 6 archetype feat Bloodline Spell).

Tap into Blood is an action you must take after your blood magic effect triggers, and Sorcerer MC doesn’t get a blood magic effect. I era wished for this combo, too.


I vaguely remember reading or hearing somewhere that Blood Magic is now available via the sorcerer archetype. Don't really have a source for that.


Blave wrote:
I vaguely remember reading or hearing somewhere that Blood Magic is now available via the sorcerer archetype. Don't really have a source for that.

I asked on a discord and a couple people checked and posted relevant text. Neither their interpretation or mine could get us there. Best we could do was take a feat for a new or alternative blood magic, but might be frustrated by not having an original one to substitute.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gortle wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

I see. Old Man Robot actually listed what it does, everyone else was talking around it. I had no idea it was that powerful. Gortle's original post made me think it was some better RK focus spell like before.

But now it's a whole other level of power.

Ancestral Memories gives you +1/2/3 to spell attack or an enemy within 60 ft -1/-2/-3 to a save for a single action and triggers your bloodmagic

Bloodmagic gives you +1 AC or a +1 to a Save, or you can swap it for another effect via a feat.
Then you cast your two action spell and watch your enemy fail badly with his -3 save.

Alternative blood magic use includes Tap in Blood which allows a RK using Arcana for anything. But that requires an action so maybe you will only use that with a 2 action blood magic. It is still OK as it only costs you one level 1 feat and you can't crit fail. Of course you'll take Dubious Knowledge as well.

There is a whole lot more in blood magic. Yes you could work it so Imperial gets Sorcerous Potency +1 status bonus per level to damage as well as +1 damage per spell level from Elemental Blood Magic via CrossBlooded Evolution to Force Barrage. But I think it would screw up the damage type to Fire or Bludgeoning.

That sounds horribly overpowered, harkening back to my old PF1e sorcerer blaster builds on the 1e forums in which I would combine multiple bloodlines on the same character in order to stack damage boosts onto my spells.

I wonder if I might have inspired the developer responsible for this mess during their youth? XD

Or, more likely, it's the same developer(s) who allowed for those kinds of shenanigans back then.

No way this doesn't get errata'd in short order.

Liberty's Edge

I do think it deserves to be errata'd down to cap at a -2 penalty/+2 bonus personally, but keep in mind it's a status penalty and takes an additional action - sorcerers being CHA based could already use one action (and no focus point) to pretty reliably impose a -1 status penalty via Demoralise, so doing that with no failure chance and maybe a +1 higher bonus seems like a good use of a focus point. -3 seems too big to me, but this isn't quite as good as it sounds on a first read. I suspect that it'll be a bigger advantage for non-CHA casters - if you want to cast offensively with WIS or INT, you have substantially fewer options for imposing a status penalty on someone's saves.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, the fact that it's a status penalty does bring it back slightly, and you make a good point about how it stacks against similar options, Arcaian.


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While it's true that it doesn't stack with things like Demoralize, it does have a larger range of 60 ft, doesn't require a check, isn't linguistic (unlike Bon Mot) and triggers your blood magic. That's plenty powerful in my book. Especially against bosses who are more likely to resist your skill actions.

It also doesn't seem to actually target the enemy, so it should completely ignore concealment and even the hidden condition.


Ravingdork wrote:
If you were to houserule Crossblooded Evolution back in, what new name would you give it?

I'm a fan of using old 1e names for homebrew, so "Wildblooded Evolution" instead of "Crossblooded Evolution".


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Arcaian wrote:
I do think it deserves to be errata'd down to cap at a -2 penalty/+2 bonus personally, but keep in mind it's a status penalty and takes an additional action - sorcerers being CHA based could already use one action (and no focus point) to pretty reliably impose a -1 status penalty via Demoralise, so doing that with no failure chance and maybe a +1 higher bonus seems like a good use of a focus point. -3 seems too big to me, but this isn't quite as good as it sounds on a first read. I suspect that it'll be a bigger advantage for non-CHA casters - if you want to cast offensively with WIS or INT, you have substantially fewer options for imposing a status penalty on someone's saves.

Every reason you listed is why to me this feels designed for a witch or a wizard, and not the sorcerer


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Just because Sorcerer can use Demoralise doesn't mean this is in any way lesser. They can use Demoralise once per enemy, and if it is a boss, now they have multiple ways to reduce their saves.


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Once again I state that this isn't overpowered as many people here think. It costs 1-action + focus point to give an equivalent to a +1 to attack/DC spells to your next spell with heightening at ranks 5 and 8. Remember that Courageous Anthem gives a similar bonus to all allies in a 60-foot emanation for all allies at no resource like focus cost.

IMO the only bad felling about this is how AestheticDialectic said. This kind of focus spell feels designed for a witch or a wizard, and not the sorcerer because sorcerer aready have too much things improving their abilities.


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Yeah, while strong, don't need to be nerfed, Bard can give bonus to all allies without resource cost and then expending resource can increase that bonus to +2/+3. Also have Dirge of Doom, that is automatic frightened and that ones is status penalty on EVERYTHING.

And if you are a big optmizer then at some point you basically spam Heroism scrolls as it becomes cheap moneywise for +1/+2.


I have a few sorcerer character, a dragon blooded [gold] dragon disciple, an aasimar angelic blood sorcerer and a psyhic/diabolic blooded tiefling. I am wondering how these blood lines are impacted/ The first 2 are PFS characters.


It does seem that the new Explosion of Power feat opens up some very spicy, very risky blasting builds. It's like the old wizard elemental tempest focus spell except it costs no resources and no actions. It certainly blows other damage focused blood magics out of the water. I'm not sure if Paizo intended it to work with anoint ally. If they did, it's both powerful and safe. But even if not, a 12th level hasted elemental sorc can stride into melee, then chain lightning into elemental toss for:

6d8 piercing vs AC
6d6 fire basic Reflex
8d12+6 electric (multiple targets) basic Reflex
6d6 fire basic Reflex

Against on-level foes that's threatening 125 ish average damage against targets with 200-230 HP. Seems like it overshadows most other blasting options.

Undead sorcerers can do something similar with vampiric exsanguination, except they also get temp HP to help against any potential crack back and can unload high damage harms (nova-ing their resources) to get several sequential blood magic triggers.

If you're feeling particularly bold, you can also combine Explosion of Power with the elemental bloodline's vanilla blood magic (thanks to blood sovereignty) and squeeze out another 10% more damage at the cost of 20% or so of your HP.


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Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I have a few sorcerer character, a dragon blooded [gold] dragon disciple, an aasimar angelic blood sorcerer and a psyhic/diabolic blooded tiefling. I am wondering how these blood lines are impacted/ The first 2 are PFS characters.

Dragon disciple wasn't reprinted, apparently many of its feats and the kobold dragonish feats moved to the dragonblooded versatile heritage.

Angelic is reportedly one of the least affected sorcerer bloodlines. I think one or two granted spells changed. Their blood magic effect applies to themselves or a target, if that wasn't the way it worked before. I didn't see a second effect added on. A lot of poeple are very down on their first focus spell, becuase now all sorcerers get a free spell rank boost to heals, so it does relatively little on top of that. They're both status bonuses.

Liberty's Edge

Ascalaphus wrote:
The way I'd been looking at was to make wizards spontaneous too, but simulate the "book learning" vibe by letting them shift a couple spells in their repertoire every morning. Like sorcerers do with Arcane Evolution, but maybe one spell of every rank.

If you want to maintain a distinction, but minimize it a bit at the same time, something I’ve considered is letting Wizards cast spontaneously from a daily repertoire of their prepared slots. So if a Wizard has three 1st level slots per day, he can prepare three from his spellbook, and cast any combination of those three.

Monte Cook’s Arcana Unearthed worked a bit like this, though I think there were separate progressions for the daily repertoire and castings, but if I did this I’d be inclined to just use the existing number of slots for both. I also don’t know that I’d use this for Cleric and Druid since they get all common spells free.


Early on that Ancestral Memory won't do much as -1 is pretty easy to come by, but at 5th level -2 is not as easy and -3 definitely not as easy at 8th level.

This spell would be pretty nice for Spell Combination wizard using mega-disintegrate. Not sure how this interacts as I haven't read the exact text, but it seems to make disintegrate much nicer giving both a bonus to hit and a minus on the saving throw. Doubly effective with disintegrate.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Power creep has been getting increasingly unreal since Howl of the Wild. Seems like the 1e developer mindset has found its way into the proverbial 2e henhouse.


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IMO was since the RoE. The remastered content power level is a bit higher than legacy. It's like the designers decided "let's restrict less the players and give them a bit more what they want".

Honestly is not a bad way to deal with the game. Many people are happy with the changes and we still are too far way from unbalance like what we see in other systems like 5e.

I just feel sorry for the wizards, they were practically the only ones who just lost in this whole situation.


Wizards confused on why they don't get that same nice Recall Knowledge feat from Arcane Bloodlines.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:

Early on that Ancestral Memory won't do much as -1 is pretty easy to come by, but at 5th level -2 is not as easy and -3 definitely not as easy at 8th level.

This spell would be pretty nice for Spell Combination wizard using mega-disintegrate. Not sure how this interacts as I haven't read the exact text, but it seems to make disintegrate much nicer giving both a bonus to hit and a minus on the saving throw. Doubly effective with disintegrate.

As far as I can tell you can one action Sure Strike, one action Ancestral Memories, and one action Quicken Spell Spell Combination Disintegrate to roll twice to hit and then reduce their Fort DC by 3.


Xenocrat wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

Early on that Ancestral Memory won't do much as -1 is pretty easy to come by, but at 5th level -2 is not as easy and -3 definitely not as easy at 8th level.

This spell would be pretty nice for Spell Combination wizard using mega-disintegrate. Not sure how this interacts as I haven't read the exact text, but it seems to make disintegrate much nicer giving both a bonus to hit and a minus on the saving throw. Doubly effective with disintegrate.

As far as I can tell you can one action Sure Strike, one action Ancestral Memories, and one action Quicken Spell Spell Combination Disintegrate to roll twice to hit and then reduce their Fort DC by 3.

And the +3 to hit as well?

Dark Archive

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Also, Imperial Sorcerers automatically get disintegrate! Ha!


Deriven Firelion wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

Early on that Ancestral Memory won't do much as -1 is pretty easy to come by, but at 5th level -2 is not as easy and -3 definitely not as easy at 8th level.

This spell would be pretty nice for Spell Combination wizard using mega-disintegrate. Not sure how this interacts as I haven't read the exact text, but it seems to make disintegrate much nicer giving both a bonus to hit and a minus on the saving throw. Doubly effective with disintegrate.

As far as I can tell you can one action Sure Strike, one action Ancestral Memories, and one action Quicken Spell Spell Combination Disintegrate to roll twice to hit and then reduce their Fort DC by 3.
And the +3 to hit as well?

No, you get one or the other.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
YuriP wrote:

IMO was since the RoE. The remastered content power level is a bit higher than legacy. It's like the designers decided "let's restrict less the players and give them a bit more what they want".

Honestly is not a bad way to deal with the game. Many people are happy with the changes and we still are too far way from unbalance like what we see in other systems like 5e.

I just feel sorry for the wizards, they were practically the only ones who just lost in this whole situation.

Totally cool if it's a new, slightly higher cap on the balance ceiling.

I'm just concerned it might instead be Wile E. Coyote with skates and a rocket on his back at the base of a never ending upwards slope. Whether ihe keeps going or explodes at the start, it doesn't bode well for the future of 2e.

But I'll remain cautiously optimistic until I see more evidence of trends.

John R. wrote:
Also, Imperial Sorcerers automatically get disintegrate! Ha!

LOL.


Explosion of Power is interesting even on a subclass like Elemental, with the Anoint Ally that was suggested before you can like Elemental Toss + Fireball and gain 2 explosions, even if the enemy makes the save the average is still higher than the native damage increase of the Elemental.

Xenocrat wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

Early on that Ancestral Memory won't do much as -1 is pretty easy to come by, but at 5th level -2 is not as easy and -3 definitely not as easy at 8th level.

This spell would be pretty nice for Spell Combination wizard using mega-disintegrate. Not sure how this interacts as I haven't read the exact text, but it seems to make disintegrate much nicer giving both a bonus to hit and a minus on the saving throw. Doubly effective with disintegrate.

As far as I can tell you can one action Sure Strike, one action Ancestral Memories, and one action Quicken Spell Spell Combination Disintegrate to roll twice to hit and then reduce their Fort DC by 3.

Hilarious enough, that would trigger blood magic twice.


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The fact that any caster can poach the Imperial Sorcerer focus spell worries me a lot, I fear it will be everywhere.

Extend Spell is something I'll miss, but I get why it was changed, the replacement is much easier to use and makes more sense as a Focus Spell.

The changes to Draconic and Demonic's 1st focus spells are amazing. I specially like Draconic's, it is really evocative, helps with multitarget early on and scales fairly well.

What I dislike is Crossblooded going away, I think it is the only change I actively dislike. That feat did so much work in making the class work at its peak.


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Psychic MC finally gets a break.

Shadow Lodge

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The fact arcane sorcerers lost the spellbook saddens me. It was pretty much the only reason I picked arcane haha.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
The fact arcane sorcerers lost the spellbook saddens me. It was pretty much the only reason I picked arcane haha.

Arcane Evolution is gone? So they nerfed the sorcerer to make the wizard more attractive. Heh.

Dark Archive

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Dragonborn3 wrote:
The fact arcane sorcerers lost the spellbook saddens me. It was pretty much the only reason I picked arcane haha.

If Arcane Evolution wasn't reprinted, it should still exist as a legal option by default. If it returned but was changed...then yeah, you're right. I don't know what actually happened with it but I don't think I've heard of any of the evolution feats getting changed....

Edit: Just checked out BadLuckGamer's video again. The feat is mostly the same, but the requirement of using a book to store your learned spells is gone. JUST THE SPELLBOOK. It otherwise functions identically.

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