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We get 4+Int Items (not batches of items) with the Advanced Alchemy. Those are per day. (upgradable to at least 6+Int with a feat)
We get 2+Int Versatile Vials.
Those Versatile falsks can be used for 3 things:
a)Quick Alchemy
b)makeshift bomb
c)Unique Field useWe get back 2 of those /10min.
In addition, we can spend an Action to use Quick alchemy to ALSO make a "temporary versatile vial"
This "temporary versatile vial" can ONLY be used for:
a)makeshift bomb
b)Unique Field use(plus it takes an extra action to make)
If you want to think of it another way, think of Alchemist like a caster.
Each morning you can pre-make X many items during Daily Prep (don't have the text, so with the changes to General Crafting IDK if you need to have the Recipe in your book or not for these). These are full potency items, all the bells and whistles, full durations, etc. These are your Spell Slots.
Then you have your Versatile Vials, which regen 2 every ten minutes. These can be used on the fly to create any item in your recipe book (spellbook), but it has to be used by the start of your next turn, and if the effect has a long duration that duration caps at 10 minutes. These are your Focus Spells.
Then you have the Quick Alchemy instant Vials. These are infinite, but have to be used by the end of the turn they're created, and can only be used for either really basic bombs or your Field's unique ability. These are your Cantrips.
And then there's the secret fourth option, items you spend downtime and money to Craft. These last forever, function at full potency, may or may not be limited to their Item DCs (depending on how things get phrased), etc. These are your Scrolls.
Those two posts explained how this works so clearly! Thank you both!
Also possible is for the new version of the Infused trait to add Coagulant to all HP restoring alch items.That seems more plausible to me. For one thing, that's exactly how it works now when a chirurgeon gains their perpetuals at level 7, and for another, it's just much less of a headache to use that mechanic than retroactively altering an item that was already printed so soon after its release.
I kinda didn't want to put that bad mojo out into the ether, but yeah, it is my suspicion that Coagulant will apply to all infused HP items.
This aligns w/ Chiurgeon having that weird Feature to conditionally ignore Coagulant that is presented as a big milestone.
Being able to slap your ally for 2d6 healing w/ a raw VVial at L10 is already a joke, and there's no way that's the only thing blocked/dictated by the trait.
Coagulant puts way more value into burst healing options like Combine, and into non-Alch supplemental healing like Battle Medicine.
Damage tends to be so high in pf2, waiting for allies to be < 50% HP is kinda always dangerous, especially for those 6HP squishies.
And before Chiurgeon gets that bypass feature? You are basically going to just be sitting on that Coagulant, only using it if things get dire.
Damn it all,
Advanced Vials (11th) When you use a field vial to heal a creature that has half its maximum Hit Points or fewer, the coagulant trait doesn't apply to that healing.
I had a bad feeling. Instead of being an odd emergency healer, Chiurgeon is just about worthless. The Feature only can bypass the use of a raw VV. Seeing as that will take 2A in combat for base bomb dmg, this is as worthless as it gets.
Shame on me for thinking that Chiurgeon would have a genuinely different play experience w/ alchemical healing.
Aside from the L13 Feature to max roll dice, Chiurgeon is looking pretty horrible.
Any Alch w/ the Feats can burst heal for the same amount. The only missing bit is the INT temp HP.
i think if you are doing X melee damage and Y poison damage with 1 attack will outdamage doing X melee damage and Y poison damage +1-4 splash but one of the attacks with MAP.
Basically you combine the two sources of damage in the same strike, which should be overall better, especially when you consider things like flanking affecting the weapon strike.
Assume you're using a dagger, since that's as good as it gets. What you gain from the Toxi field vial is an extra 20% chance to hit/crit with the dagger (20% of expected damage if you hit on a 10, going up to 40% if you hit on a 6), and what you lose is a 95% chance to land splash damage on at least one target.
A dagger's only d4, so you're getting somewhere between 0.5 and 1 extra damage per die... but hitting on a 6 seems pretty optimistic to me. Meanwhile the splash is 0.95 extra damage per die, so it usually outperforms. (This compares to the toxi field vial 3-action doing 6 per die on a hit.) Even moving up to a d6 isn't enough to save you.
If you start your turn in flanking and don't want to do anything else, then yes, you'll get up to 0.75 extra expected damage per die and also avoid splashing yourself + allies. But I feel that's rather too niche for the first 10 levels of a level 1 subclass feature, and I'm struggling to think of anything else to do with it.
So, let us work with teh assumption that the whole design philosophy of how the game actually functions without doom and gloom about things that seem almost impossible to change.
Whether or not Coagulant applies to infused, it still leaves the choice to pick Chiurgeon in a very bad place compared to the other types.
For 1-10 campaigns, you have the Crafting[Medicine subimination, and the only other usable benefit is the L5 to add + INT temp HP to healing elixirs.
Even a Chiurgeon will be throwing more bombs than feeding elixirs. Optional & enhanced splash will benefit them far more.
I've been keeping track, and I roughly hit allies with splash 2x more than foes. Large creatures, flanking, etc, means that splash is a genuine problem.
And now that prep items are so precious, coagulating bombs ahead of time is not as viable.
I already had to hem and haw about my doctor flavored PC being a Bomber under the hood, and now that impetus is all the stronger.
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Wait why are we assuming Elixir of Life has Coagulant? It doesn't have it in GM Core, and given how PC1 refers to PC2 with things like the monk trait being present, it's apparent Paizo would have given it the trait if they wanted to. There is zero reason to assume they've changed this now.
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Did Revivifying Mutagen survive to Player Core 2?
Are there any changes to Juggernaut Mutagen?
Would the temporary hit points stack with New Mutagenicist’s Research Field benefit?
Asking for a friend.
=)
To me it seems like a very strong healer option.
Some of the best condition removal from very early on, good renewable healing.
You don't liking it, doesn't make it weak. If anything, the numbers are in the favor of the Chirurgeon.
Plus, what's not to like with +4 temp hp every time you heal someone, that changes the lvl 5 elixirs from 3d6+6 to effectively 3d6+10, that's a pretty decent upgrade. It doesn't SCALE that well, but we don't need it to scale that much, since at 13 the healing gets megaboosted either way.
Dude, you're not listening. There is a single Chiurgeon-only Feat.
The only other benefit of picking Chiurgeon comes from the class features.
If my Bomber PC could just use Q-Alch Soothing/etc elixirs to heal out of and inside of combat, and still have the exact same Feat combos, the Bomber feature benefits will still help my "Doctor" PC more than the supposed "doctor" subclass.
L5 Chi has INT to temp HP for healing elixirs, but again, safe splash and INT to splash will both trigger many more times per fight than I will feed allies elixirs.
In a 1-10 campaign, when there's not even the distant L13 to max the elixir HP restore, the comparison between Bomber and Chiurgeon is absurdly weighted in the Bomber's favor.
Especially when Bomber's INT bonus applies to all splash bombs, while Chi's tHP only functions for infused + healing + elixir trait. Meaning, you cannot even hard craft cheaper elixirs to proc the feature. But you sure can fill those 3rd actions with Quick Bomber spam.
There's no more prep item batch multiplier, there's no more Perpetual Skunk bombs to use as a fallback for 1 Feat.
Wait why are we assuming Elixir of Life has Coagulant? It doesn't have it in GM Core, and given how PC1 refers to PC2 with things like the monk trait being present, it's apparent Paizo would have given it the trait if they wanted to. There is zero reason to assume they've changed this now.We don't, Trip only does for some reason.
Coagulant: Healing alchemical items with the coagulant trait lose effectiveness when many are applied in a short period of time. If a creature heals Hit Points from an item with the coagulant trait, that creature is temporarily immune to healing Hit Points from subsequent items with the coagulant trait for 10 minutes (but not immune to any other effects of those items)
Does this sound like it was invented and written to apply only to the Chi's crappy raw VVial heal?
Traits as a concept are there to be reused. Paizo has published plenty of dumb stuff (I have still not seen a resolution to the splash rules contradiction they published between the 2 Remaster books), but I do think it's safe to assume there will be other mechanisms for the Coagulant trait to affect alchemical healing.
Going by Paizo's conservative track record, Coagulant being bundled inside Infused is genuinely likely.
Did Revivifying Mutagen survive to Player Core 2?
Are there any changes to Juggernaut Mutagen?
Would the temporary hit points stack with New Mutagenicist’s Research Field benefit?
Asking for a friend.
=)
I can say that the general rule for tHP is that they do not stack, and when you get a 2nd effect, you pick which one to keep.
Very, very unlikely that Muta has a specific override for that rule.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2321
Some spells or abilities give you temporary Hit Points. Track these separately from your current and maximum Hit Points; when you take damage, reduce your temporary Hit Points first. Most temporary Hit Points last for a limited duration. You can’t regain lost temporary Hit Points through healing, but you can gain more via other abilities. You can have temporary Hit Points from only one source at a time. If you gain temporary Hit Points when you already have some, choose whether to keep the amount you already have and their corresponding duration or to gain the new temporary Hit Points and their duration.
Hobgoblin toxicologist is something Im excited to make after seeing these alchemist changes. Bomber looks easier to play but toxi looks more than sevicable now (and I can still pick up calculated splash when I need to be ranged).
This new clasa sounds like the most versatile caster ever.
I look forward to pairing it with Inventor or Witch Dedication or adding Alchemist Dedication to almost anything. the
I am curious about Investigators with Alchemical Sciences Methodology, how will they work?
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They are straight up going to need to put out some type of guide, webpage, spreadsheet, or tool for people who BOTH did and did not already remaster convert their Alchemists to figure out how to handle refunding 100% of their purchases for preexisting characters because the changes to costs, all sorts of feats, existing alchemical items, no longer existing formulas, still existing ones, and equipment will make for getting existing ones money back in any semblance of a fair manner the biggest headache in the world when upgrading to the PC2 version... the item recons for cost as well as "this doesn't exist anymore" stuff is going to be powers of magnitude worse for just one well build Alchemist than it would have been to convert an entire party of non Alchemists beforehand...
Organized play should just put out an announcement that any existing Alchemists should get X amount of coin based on what level they are PLUS 100% of the money and items they'd have ever gained from report sheets so they can do a full and complete refund and rebuild IMO.
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So watching Wisdom Check's video on the Alchemist and they found some interesting interactions between the Alchemist's archetype and some of their feats, assuming they work as he thinks.
The two he brings up that I remember are the one that lets you once a day gather materials for 3 vials if you are below your max number of versatile vials, and the one that lets your daily consumables increase to 6+Int which is normally an increase of 2 per day for an Alchemist but would be an increase of 2+Int for an archetype Alchemist.
So watching Wisdom Check's video on the Alchemist and they found some interesting interactions between the Alchemist's archetype and some of their feats, assuming they work as he thinks.
The two he brings up that I remember are the one that lets you once a day gather materials for 3 vials if you are below your max number of versatile vials, and the one that lets your daily consumables increase to 6+Int which is normally an increase of 2 per day for an Alchemist but would be an increase of 2+Int for an archetype Alchemist.
Yes, that was interesting. Especially since I like to play high-int characters for whom 2+int would be a very big boost.
The Alchemist Archetype is a huge disappointment for me.
My Inventor has the old Archetype and uses it for long term buffs (Cheetah, Eagle-Eye, Antidote and Antiplague) and semi-frequent use of prepared situational elixirs "drawn" from a Retrieval Belt (Mistform, Numbing, Cat's Eye).
Having the long term buffs going all day is basically impossible with the Remaster with only 4 items per day. (Inceasing this to 6+Int seems too good to be true, but somehow still not enough.) The situational short-term buffs are still possible with the daily preparation but since they are in fact situational, they barely seem to be worth two feats.
Quick Alchemy is useless for my Inventor in combat because I don't have a free hand and so far used Nimble Shield Hand to handle elixirs in combat.
I enjoyed it while it lasted, but I'm hoping my GM allows for some free retraining once PC2 is released.
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All that being said, grabbing the Dedication and Quick Bomber seems like fun for various classes. A rogue could use it to throw up to 3 vials per round when facing swarms or other things with precision immunity. And since the vials scale their damage and attack bonus automatically, they'd be a decent third action attack for a wizard without the need to invest any money into it.
I'm pretty sure the upgrade to 6+Int is going to be patched pretty soon.
There's a dedicated Archetype feat at level 6 bumping you from 4 to 5, I can't see them leaving the option to go from 4 to 6+Int at level 4, and the fact that the level 6 Archetype feat exists also is a clear indicator for the RAI as well.
The 6+int class feat is for Advanced Alchemy, i.e. daily preparataion.
The +1 archetype feat is for Versatile Vials, i.e. Quick Alchemy.
Unless I'm remembering something terribly wrong, of course.
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They are straight up going to need to put out some type of guide, webpage, spreadsheet, or tool for people who BOTH did and did not already remaster convert their Alchemists to figure out how to handle refunding 100% of their purchases for preexisting characters because the changes to costs, all sorts of feats, existing alchemical items, no longer existing formulas, still existing ones, and equipment will make for getting existing ones money back in any semblance of a fair manner the biggest headache in the world when upgrading to the PC2 version... the item recons for cost as well as "this doesn't exist anymore" stuff is going to be powers of magnitude worse for just one well build Alchemist than it would have been to convert an entire party of non Alchemists beforehand...
Organized play should just put out an announcement that any existing Alchemists should get X amount of coin based on what level they are PLUS 100% of the money and items they'd have ever gained from report sheets so they can do a full and complete refund and rebuild IMO.
My guess is, much like with spells, the alchemical items from premaster will largely continue to be legal, while having to use the new version of it’s the same name. I don’t know how they’ll handle refunds if the price on something changed. For expended resources, I expect nothing will change. For everything else, you can already sell items back for 100% of what you paid as part of the rebuild, so you could just sell them and replace them for the cheaper cost. That’s if you bought them. If you crafted them, you might be out of luck for any kind of refund.
If you rebuilt your alchemist before PC2 releases, I don’t really know what to say, other than, why?
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Having watched the rules lawyer video, there's a lot of love here. I was afraid quick alchemy would be nerfed for versatile vials, but it seems better than ever. My own concerns were misplaced. Alchemists gained a lot, and the only thing it seems they've lost is nova potential. But said nova potential was already restricted by action economy and signposting prebuffing. But now you can do things like have two elixirs in effect the whole adventuring day and not worry about buffs running out while people are treating wounds and such. And those six vials have a really absurd moment to moment flexibility that you don't need to worry about saving for later.
It's just a much more forgiving class. While I do feel sympathy for the folks who liked how fiddly managing your resource pool was, I hope they can recognize that the player base at large will be much better off with this version. And that means less people bouncing off the system because they couldn't make their alchemist work, which in turn should grow the community. Probably a significant amount, since the alchemist has always been such a unique Pathfinder thing. It's a big draw if newbies can be expected to play it effectively.
COMBINE ELIXIRS FEAT 6
ADDITIVE | ALCHEMISTYou can add the full ingredients of a second elixir to an elixir you make to create a hybrid concoction. You must expend an additional versatile vial to make this combined elixir, and the ingredients must be for an elixir you could create with Quick Alchemy. When this combination elixir is consumed, both the constituent elixirs take effect. For example, you can combine two lesser elixirs of life to create a combined elixir that heals twice the normal amount, or you can combine a lesser darkvision elixir with a lesser eagle-eye elixir to both gain darkvision and find secret doors.
So, no matter how I try to angle my approach when reading this Feat, I can only ever end up at a Combine elixir costing total of 2 VVs. (or 1 VV)
The way this is written leaves the cost and type of the initial base elixir as ambiguous, and I think that was intentionally done to enable a Chi to use a free Quick Vial as a base, then add an elixir for 1 VV.
For comparison, the old Combine says:
"[...]You can spend 2 additional batches of infused reagents to add a second elixir to the one you’re crafting.[...]"
While I was predisposed to assume the new Combine would cost 3 total for 2 formula book elixirs, it really seems like you pay 1 more VV for 1 additional elixir.
The only other new cost is that Additives are now once per turn, so this would lock the Alch from using another similar to flourish.
The way they worded the Chi VV use locks the VV to only gain the elixir trait if you feed and not throw it, so you cannot use the Chi VV as base to enable the ranged delivery of a Combine elixir.
This "just buff a VV with an elixir" use does provide some explanation for the non-Additive passive elixir enhancers like the DC 10 --> bleed recovery Feat.
Without Combine, spending 2 A to feed a mini-VV heal + Feat effect would be an extremely hard sell. With Combine, you can trigger the VV-only boosts while still ensuring the potency of a crafted item is in the mix.
Quick bomber works with healing bombs, but I haven't seen similar action compression for poisons, mutagens, or elixirs. It looks like those are all going to remain best used pre-and-post combat, so non-bomber (strength) alchemists will still just strike with simple weapons as their battle plan? A mutagenist can get some temp hp if they use the mutagen close enough to combat starting, or mid-combat, but that's a poor consolation for spending two-actions to engage bestial mutagen. You aren't given any action compression to claw back these action costs later.
Once you hit 3rd level and the Bestial Mutagen lasts 10 minutes, you can just Quick Alchemy one constantly in exploration mode. You expend one Versatile Vial, ten minutes later you've regenerated two and the mutagen expires (both due to the QA limit and the individual mutagen limit) and you drink a new one. Basically you start any combat down one VV and with 0-99 rounds left on your mutagen.
Edit: Oh, I see shroud said the same thing and applied it more broadly. So second.
You can add the full ingredients of a second elixir to an elixir you make to create a hybrid concoction. You must expend an additional versatile vial to make this combined elixir, and the ingredients must be for an elixir you could create with Quick Alchemy.
so you need the 1 VV to begin with to make the original potion that has the Additive.
then you spend the "full ingredients" of whatver you are adding (usually +1 VV)
then you expend an additional VV (+1)For a total of 3.
I don't think that is a grammatically correct reading.
The first sentence describes the concept of the specific elixir Additive, and the second sentence states the mechanical language of the costs and limitations of that presented concept.
What does this Feat do? ---- "You can add the full ingredients of a second elixir to an elixir you make to create a hybrid concoction."
What's the catch? ----- "You must expend an additional versatile vial to make this combined elixir, and the ingredients must be for an elixir you could create with Quick Alchemy."
The "full ingredients" is established in the first sentence to be defined as a VV by the 2nd sentence; a VV is everything you need to make it. The other restriction introduced is: "an elixir you could create with Quick Alchemy"
That said, you could theoretically substitute the 2nd VV (the full ingredients) with the actual igredients of whatever you are adding, so adding the GP cost of what you are adding (as long as it is something you can craft with Quick alchemy itself).
I really, 100%, do not think the designers ever intended for Alchemists to be able to burn gold during Quick Alchemy to insta-buy elixirs as you suggest.
That is an extremely wild take that seems to be born by your insistence on a 3 VV cost reading.
There is no way such a mechanic would be slipped via implication inside of a Feat like Combine Elixirs like that without being explicitly stated.
And, again, I will repeat that the old Combine directly stated it was a +2 reagent cost. The precedent is for them to be explicit. It does look like the change to VVs has reduced the cost of the Feat.
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You can't use additives with quick vials.
Ah, thank you.
Additive: Feats with the additive trait allow you to add special substances to alchemical consumables you create when you use Quick Alchemy to create a consumable (you can't use additives with quick vials). You can add only one additive to a single alchemical item, you can add an additive only once per round, and most additive abilities specify a subset of alchemical consumables you can add them to.
Some players may try to wiggle to add a VV into an elixir, but the Combine wording of "You must expend an additional versatile vial to make this combined elixir, and the ingredients must be for an elixir you could create with Quick Alchemy." seems crafted to exclude a Chi's VV elixir from qualifying to be the additive.
Honestly, that shifts the Chi VV options way back into the terrible camp. The degree to which the tiny thing is isolated from the rest of the mechanics is just wild. No Heal Bomb, no Combine, no Unstable. Just d6 + 0 healing, upgrading to 3d6 at Level 12.
It makes 0 sense that Paizo is that paranoid about locking down a 1 p 10 min heal.
Especially since, ya know, they just gave all Alchemists recharging full-book item access??? Lol. Like, when an ally has been knocked down to <50% HP, the absolutely last thing I would consider is that my 10 min limiter has been removed, and I can now spend 2A to heal them with a Quick-V for... 3d6 HP.
Even if I have 0 VVs, I'ma just Quick Bomber 2 insta-Vs into the foes instead.
Or Battle Medicine.
Or Cast a Spell, etcetera.
The reason I'm grumbling so hard about the Chi's VV is that it was obviously inappropriate to have the healing scale the exact same as the bomb damage.
I expected something like the Thaum's Chalice, which is sitting there as a design reference. That feature understands that even if you want to put a timer cap on healing, such a "cantrip" feature needs to be 1 A and infinite, so Chalice gets both the 10 min heal for 3x Level and the infinite Sip for 2 + (1/2 Level) tHP.
It is crystal clear that the VV was designed for the Bomber, and the Chi's version is a lazy afterthought. Everyone knows that damage does not scale the same as healing, period. Stop making excuses for that. Chi's VV is a literal downgrade compared to the prior Perpetual Infusions, which did more healing, had more options for selection, and functioned with Additives.
By preventing QV compatibility (no Additives!), the new Feat line to add effect cleansers to your elixirs is also a joke that was not properly thought through or iterated upon.
If I already need to spend a VV to fully Q-Alch a cure, I'm just going to make the item that matches the condition. The idea that "can now cure diseases" is a headline feature for a 3rd Feat in a chain makes me think the person who wrote that genuinely did not know Contagion Metabolizers exist. And no, the 2-3 conditions that lack specific items do not justify the slots, ffs. The only reason such an Action and Feat costly effect could be justified is by being resources, aka being QV compatible. Or by being guaranteed effects where the normal items aren't, but the Feats are all counteract checks.
3 Feats is enough to take a Dedication and get 2 more Feats to end the lockout. The +counteract Feats are just absurdly bad.
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I think every field of study benefits from dabbling in the tools of every other field of study. Prepoisoning the fighters blade is often a good idea in exploration, everyone can use ranged bomb options with some AOE capability that can be applied improvements with feats, a melee chirurgeon healer may want a juggernaut mutagen with the physical resistance feat up, etc.
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My impression of the alchemist.
It still feels like an alchemist.
It seems to be inventor adjacent in class structure.
It finally looks like it is playable even at low levels.
Bomber and toxicologist look effective. The poison/acid option is enough that I think it will work well.
When I finally get my copy I'm going to bring it up with a few players who tried it before and were disappointed. To see if they want to give it another go.
Old poisoner archetype looked like it gave a few neat side grades to toxicologist (up to lvl 10) so I hope the remastered one can still mesh alright with the remastered toxicologist
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I'm really happy that I can finally play the monstrous "Mr Hyde" builds that I loved in 1E because Bestial Mutagen got a very nice buff in PC2. Very happy indeed.
Is there a feat to gain versatile viles back quicker ? If you have 8 at later levels the 40 minutes wait to get them back might be problematic
I read somewhere that you get 3 per 10 minutes starting at level 9. Class feature, not feat.
I don't know if it scales more at higher levels.