Tarondor's Guide to the Pathfinder Second Edition (Remastered) Cleric

[Tarondor]

Hey folks. I've written a guide to clerics. YOU CAN FIND IT HERE..

As always, comments are welcome.

[magnuskn]

Okay, why is it that PF2E guides all seem to be 200+ pages long? That wasn't normal during 1E and that was arguably the more complicated game.

Anyway, good work as always, Tarondor, at first glance. :)

[Conscious Meat]

394 pages, holy hell. :D

I would say that, while that's a *lot*, it's a good sign for the system that it's not a paltry few viable options and build concepts surrounded by oceans of grossly inferior ones.

[Tarondor]

magnuskn wrote:

Okay, why is it that PF2E guides all seem to be 200+ pages long? That wasn't normal during 1E and that was arguably the more complicated game.

Anyway, good work as always, Tarondor, at first glance. :)

Thanks. I thought about making this one more of a summary, but a number of people new to the system seem to really enjoy the in-depth guide, so that’s the way I went. I did include a TL:DR section and links to good (shorter) guides I enjoyed.

Heck, half the page length is just all the ancestries. Phew, that took awhile.

[Nintendogeek01]

The Cleric has long needed an updated guide even before the Remaster, this is a service to the community! Thank you!

One bit of critique I can offer, since this is for the Remastered Cleric, you may want to drop any terminology and math from "Ability Score" and shift it to "Attributes"

For instance you reference starting strength at 16 and then take it to 20. It'd be best to change that to +3 and take it to +5.

[Tarondor]

Nintendogeek01 wrote:

One bit of critique I can offer, since this is for the Remastered Cleric, you may want to drop any terminology and math from "Ability Score" and shift it to "Attributes"

Thought I'd gotten all of those. Will do.

[Gortle]

I've been checking though it. Your ancestry section is huge. I split mine out so I don't have to repeat it. But at least you are right up to date.

I do like what you have done. I mostly agree. Though I think you rate once per day abilities too highly.

Worst piece of advice is:
Fleetwind Centaur () - Your speed increases by 5 feet. Eh, you’re
already fast.
IMHO more speed is just better.

Some things to fix:

Missing Thunder God's Fan for Tengu

This order annoys me:
Umbral Gnome
Wellspring Gnome
Vivacious Gnome

Rite of Invocation needs a colour

Some flight feats have moved level eg Hero's Wings, Fully Flighted

Planar Sidestep is level 13

[Kendaan]

It's looking good but maybe a bit more focused on the Warpriest than the Cleric as a whole.

For exemple the attributes spread in 6.1 for the Cloistered Cleric are still from legacy, and the of the 3 important feats Cleric feats, 2 are really for warpriest and the third one is more for melee harm builds.

[Tarondor]

Thanks for the advice I'll be looking into these.

[Blave]

Thanks for the guide! Didn't have time to read it in detail, but when skimming a bit, some of the ratings seem off.

Warpriest's Armor has a great effect but it's ultimately easily replaced by a general feat since the bulk reduction will hardly ever matter. So giving it a blue rating seems a bit too optimistic. At the very least you should mention the easy substitution in it's description.

Divine Apex is nowhere near green in my book. If you could get it at level 14, it would be amazing, but level 18? Half the group will already have apex items by then. It's also listed to your deity's divine attribute so it might not be all that useful four your party at all.

[The Raven Black]

Just starting to read it.

You note that the Classic Warpriest has high STR and high CON, but then you give them CON+1. And their WIS is +4.

Reads like a mistyping.

[Tarondor]

Blave wrote:

Thanks for the guide! Didn't have time to read it in detail, but when skimming a bit, some of the ratings seem off.

Warpriest's Armor has a great effect but it's ultimately easily replaced by a general feat since the bulk reduction will hardly ever matter. So giving it a blue rating seems a bit too optimistic. At the very least you should mention the easy substitution in it's description.

This was just pointed out to me in a Reddit forum. I did not know about the changes to Armor Proficiency, so yeah, you're quite right. I'll be changing quite a few builds based on this.

Blave wrote:

Divine Apex is nowhere near green in my book. If you could get it at level 14, it would be amazing, but level 18? Half the group will already have apex items by then. It's also listed to your deity's divine attribute so it might not be all that useful four your party at all.

Eh. I think the ability to make a new item on the fly every day could prove to be very useful. I'm not saying I'd pick it (you'll note that none of my sample builds do take it), just that it's useful for a broad selection of clerics. That's all the Green rating means.

[Tarondor]

The Raven Black wrote:

Just starting to read it.

You note that the Classic Warpriest has high STR and high CON, but then you give them CON+1. And their WIS is +4.

Reads like a mistyping.

I'll take a look to see if there's a typo. But what I found in my various sample builds was that now that clerics are freed from needing Charisma, there's no reason a Warpriest can't have a high Wisdom if they want. Strength, Constitution and Wisdom are all they need and they can pretty much max out all three over time.

[Tarondor]

Gortle wrote:

This order annoys me:

Umbral Gnome
Wellspring Gnome
Vivacious Gnome

I'm glad you're focused on the big picture! :-)

Gortle wrote:

Some flight feats have moved level eg Hero's Wings, Fully

Huh. So that's what people are talking about. If they're Legacy content, when and how did they change? I need a way to run them all down. What did I miss?

[Gortle]

Tarondor wrote:

Gortle wrote:

Some flight feats have moved level eg Hero's Wings, Fully

Huh. So that's what people are talking about. If they're Legacy content, when and how did they change? I need a way to run them all down. What did I miss?

Look at Lost Omens Ancestry Guide Additional Clarifications and Errata

Occasionally Paizo drops an errata update and they are very quiet about it.

[Gortle]

I do like your emphasis on Cast Down.

I think it brings Harm back into focus as a good spell. It makes it more worthwhile to use the Harm Divine Font. Which outside Channel Smite was not getting a lot of use.

[Tarondor]

Gortle wrote:

Look at Lost Omens Ancestry Guide Additional Clarifications and Errata

Occasionally Paizo drops an errata update and they are very quiet about it.

Thanks, I will!

[magnuskn]

Since you are pointing out how good Athletics is for Warpriests, you might mention shield augmentations in your shield section of the guide, so that Warpriests can use some of the maneuvers without a free hand.

[Tarondor]

I will do that.

[Red Griffyn]

Its a great guide. I don't know if its a timing thing (maybe you haven't gotten to it) but there is at least 1 (maybe more?) archetypes in HotW that should be added. The one that comes to mind is Ostilli Host, which can effectively level up a EA 1 action cantrip. It goes really well with a support/healing focused cloistered cleric to tack on some damage while still getting off that 2 action heal/harm or other named spell.

I think beastmaster is probably blue. That free action move on your mature animal companion (when you're mounted) can position you for 3 action heals and can effectively give you quickened 1.

I think the dreams domain sweet dreams focus spell should be blue. While it takes a minute to cast/get the effect, it lasts an hour and you can refocus really easily. So while it won't help on an ambush I think its pretty easy to keep up nearly 100% of the time. Its only 1 min every 60 mins. But beyond helping out the cleric for skills, it can be applied to any party member. A thaumaturge that is CHA heavy or someone focused on intimidation or someone that uses INT for recall knowledge/lore/etc.

I'd make jolt coil also blue for warpriests. Not only do you get the best cantrip, but EA + strike (with the damage bonus on your strike) is a no action damage boost.

I suspect you don't want to add this since its a bit of a RAW vs. RAI quagmire. But there is a way to apply deadly simplicity to a limited set of martial weapons (you need deities who have both claws/jaws + a weapon). You can also apply it to any weapon of a diety with syncretism (but takes the feat to do it). That can lead to some weird outliers like a 1H 1D10 battleaxe or 1D12 Scythe with Deadly D10. The effect from deadly simplicity as written applies to any favoured weapon of the diety independent of whether they are the simple claw/jaw that may have qualified you to take the feat. It is probably not RAI, but it is RAW.

In the summons section, it isn't explicitly stated (more implicit in your summon rankings), but you never come out and say that summons with spells represent 'versatility'. Its sort of like a wish spell or PF1e shadow conjuration being able to 'cast' a superposition of spells at lower ranks for a higher rank spell.

I also wonder if you'd make a third party content section. Clerics+ has some interesting class archetypes that are lots of fun and provide the 'divine bounded caster' that many folks want. I know one was announced for some future book (can't remember, but related to the death of a major god book).

You ranked the dex warpriest low, but what about a ranged warpriest? Strike plus ranged spell seems easier to achieve if you don't have to be next to someone.

[Tarondor]

Thank you for your thoughts. There's a lot in this post, but I'm just going to address a few of the points.

Ostilli Host is only for Surki, a rare ancestry, so not something I'd include here.

I definitely don't want to include 3rd Party materials. Where would I ever be able to stop? Nope, sharp bright line on Paizo stuff only!

I ranked Dex warpriest as Orange, not low. Orange is "good utility for some strategies." Like archers.

[Tarondor]

I've just released Version 1.1 of the guide based on many comments I've received here and on Reddit. Same URL as before. Thanks for all the help, folks!

[Northern Spotted Owl]

Tarondor wrote:

I ranked Dex warpriest as Orange, not low. Orange is "good utility for some strategies." Like archers.

This is a scenario where I think it can be handy to have two ratings/colors. E.g. "The Archer/Caster" could be green with "The Finesse Priest" orange. Though only if you think an archer warpriest is a green-tier build.

[neverwakinggirl]

I noticed for any deity with a staff as a favored weapon, you mentioned going for the Staff of Divination (or rather Unblinking Eye) for Sure Strike, but RAW you can't cast spells from a staff if that spell isn't on your list. I know there's the implication that a cleric can pick up an archetype to have the ability to cast the spell, but I think it'd be helpful to be more clear with that, if that is the case.

[KingAmo]

I find it interesting that you included low-level Blindness spells on the example loadouts even though they're very likely to do nothing, and usually otherwise just off-guard the target until the start of their turn. Is that really worth it, especially on warpriests with their low DC?

[Redblade8]

Tarondor wrote:

Heck, half the page length is just all the ancestries. Phew, that took awhile.

Let me open with the fact that this guide, like all the others of yours I've read (Rogue/Fighter/Bard) is dynamite, and I appreciate the work you've put into it.

I feel like a lot of 2e class guides end up getting bogged down in the Ancestries part. There's so much more that goes into an ancestry from a mechanical standpoint now; each has what, 4-6 Heritages, and well over a dozen Ancestry feats, and it all needs evaluation.

That being said, I'm still about 80% likely to just play an orc anyway (for better or worse, at least I know what I want), so I end up flying past the whole thing, which if I'm scrolling on my phone, I'm gonna be a while.

Is there a way to mitigate the War-and-Peace length of the Ancestry section, and before that, is that even a problem worth solving (for all I know this really is just a "me problem," but I wanted to at least open the question to consideration)?

Either way, all the time you've put in pays off, and this reader appreciates it.

[Tarondor]

neverwakinggirl wrote:

I noticed for any deity with a staff as a favored weapon, you mentioned going for the Staff of Divination (or rather Unblinking Eye) for Sure Strike, but RAW you can't cast spells from a staff if that spell isn't on your list. I know there's the implication that a cleric can pick up an archetype to have the ability to cast the spell, but I think it'd be helpful to be more clear with that, if that is the case.

Good point.

[Tarondor]

KingAmo wrote:

I find it interesting that you included low-level Blindness spells on the example loadouts even though they're very likely to do nothing, and usually otherwise just off-guard the target until the start of their turn. Is that really worth it, especially on warpriests with their low DC?

Well, there's no doubt in my mind that making a foe off-guard is useful if you have a fighter or barbarian or rogue standing by to take advantage of it.

[Tarondor]

Redblade8 wrote:

Is there a way to mitigate the War-and-Peace length of the Ancestry section, and before that, is that even a problem worth solving (for all I know this really is just a "me problem," but I wanted to at least open the question to consideration)?

Either way, all the time you've put in pays off, and this reader appreciates it.

Thanks. One other person did mention it on Reddit for my last (bard) guide. But for all I know, that was you. :-) But several other people, usually those new to the system, have contacted me to say how they appreciated the completeness of the guide and how it helped them understand how to build a character of that sort.

So it may not only be a "you" thing (believe me, I'm going through the Ancestry portion of another new guide now, and it's daunting), but it does help at least some folks, so it's worth doing. I do sympathize with trying to read that behemoth on your cell phone. That's got to be awhile in loading!

[Gortle]

Tarondor wrote:

KingAmo wrote:

I find it interesting that you included low-level Blindness spells on the example loadouts even though they're very likely to do nothing, and usually otherwise just off-guard the target until the start of their turn. Is that really worth it, especially on warpriests with their low DC?

Well, there's no doubt in my mind that making a foe off-guard is useful if you have a fighter or barbarian or rogue standing by to take advantage of it.

You are being too generous. You can do off guard for a lot less actions.

[Tarondor]

I rated the spell Green.

Blindness, by the way, doesn't put people off-guard. It blinds them unless they critically succeed on their save, and that's a lot more effective than merely being Off-Guard!

[Deriven Firelion]

Yep. Blindness is pretty brutal. Off-guard. Move slower. Miss chance that can't be overcome with divination spells. I stick the blind condition on enemies with Eclipse Burst. If it lands, game over for those enemies. They are blind hit point piñatas at that point.

[reevos]

Tarondor, Really appreciate these guides. Wish there was a way to support you in building these.

[Tarondor]

reevos wrote:

Tarondor, Really appreciate these guides. Wish there was a way to support you in building these.

You just did!

[The Total Package]

Tarondor wrote:

Hey folks. I've written a guide to clerics. YOU CAN FIND IT HERE..

As always, comments are welcome.

Curious why you don't rate Focus Powers

like Draconic Barrage and Ephemeral Hazards that highly? Aren't they both stellar?

[Tarondor]

The Total Package wrote:

Curious why you don't rate Focus Powers

like Draconic Barrage and Ephemeral Hazards that highly? Aren't they both stellar?

I think I addressed those adequately. I rated Ephemeral Hazards "Green" which means it is a good choice for anyone.

"Draconic Barrage" is decent damage at very low levels in exchange for one action plus a MAP penalty. It doesn't scale particularly well. I could honestly see it shading into Green, but pure damage spells aren't as good as spells that do damage plus something else.

[magnuskn]

This should probably be updated to take into account the changes from Player Core 2, i.e. stuff like Dangerous Sorcery not being a thing anymore you can get with the Sorcerer archetype.

[Dubious Scholar]

Tarondor wrote:

The Total Package wrote:

Curious why you don't rate Focus Powers

like Draconic Barrage and Ephemeral Hazards that highly? Aren't they both stellar?

I think I addressed those adequately. I rated Ephemeral Hazards "Green" which means it is a good choice for anyone.

"Draconic Barrage" is decent damage at very low levels in exchange for one action plus a MAP penalty. It doesn't scale particularly well. I could honestly see it shading into Green, but pure damage spells aren't as good as spells that do damage plus something else.

The important thing about Draconic Barrage is that while the first attack from it costs 2 actions... every attack after that is a single action, and the number of attacks scales with rank. It ends up being basically a stronger Spiritual Armament at higher ranks (because it scales much faster at 1d6 per rank instead of 1d8 per two ranks).

[Deriven Firelion]

And now that spirit is universally good for blasting, cleric took a big step up the power ladder. All divine casters did.

[GM Tarondor]

magnuskn wrote:

This should probably be updated to take into account the changes from Player Core 2, i.e. stuff like Dangerous Sorcery not being a thing anymore you can get with the Sorcerer archetype.

Eventually it will be, but that's not a thing that gets done in a weekend. Right now, I'm updating my Fighter guide.

At GenCon, Paizo announced plans to release at least two more books dealing with the Divine over the next 18 months. I think I'll wait for those to come out before starting over. There's other stuff I'd like to do.

[magnuskn]

Of course. You're doing this in your free time, take as much time as you'd like. We appreciate you doing this out of passion for the game.

[Ascalaphus]

I think for guides in general, it may be worth doing just "standout" ancestries and backgrounds, not all of them. What are the ancestries that are particularly good, or have an unusual ability that really transforms the way the class can be played?

[Qbalrog]

Very nice guide! I'm an experienced PF2E ref but it is still very helpful to see an analysis like this. I especially liked the overall thoroughness and the builds which showcase what you can do with the cleric.

[Cyrus007]

Tarondor,

I can't thank you enougth for writing this comprehensive cleric guide. I am alway amazed by the level of detail and thoroughness you put into all of your guides. The size of the guide alone surpasses all of my expetations. Thank you again for all of your help and advice. Bravo!

[itsnicodegallo]

Tarandor, as a new player, your guides are a godsend. Thank you.

[merisiel123]

The guide is awesome, thanks for your work. However, I think there's an error in the Erastil's Warpriest build - innate spells key off of Cha so your DC for Electric Arc would be garbage. Going Human with Adapted Cantrip would alleviate this.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Vanara repeats the description for Tengu.

[Desire]

Love your guides, any thoughts on Battle Harbinger?

[Here4daFreeSwag]

Good to have some free Cleric guide stuff out there for PF2e+, Tarondor. ;)