Northern Spotted Owl's page

IFF has meaning to me. Sorry if that is obscure to you but it was deliberate.

Kind of disappointed this guide doesn’t end with QED.

We should point out that this is a level 8 spell. Moving large+ creatures, if they fit a circumstance, is certainly not outside of the scope of a level 8 spell. Even with no save. Reverse gravity is level 7-8 and this isn’t stronger than that.

An excellent point. An 8th level spell is by all rights a truly powerful effect.

A 500lb push on a 5000lb giant is equivalent to a 20lb push on a 200lb human. I’d treat it like a trip with some sort of DC-to-CMB translation.

Thanks all around Deathless.

I have a few questions about your build Deathless. Thought I'd start a new thread.

- Can you enhance your hair (+1, etc) via your arcane pool, even though it's not a "weapon he is holding"? I'm curious where your DM came down on that question.

- Did you take Natural Spell Combat to deliver Spell Strike with your hair?

- Speaking of Spell Strike, which of the spells that are on both the witch & magus spell lists do you like?

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

In a bit of a different direction, the white haired witch is a full caster with reach and grappling. But she just doesn’t work with low hp and 1/2 BAB.

But if you pair the white haired witch with a top tier grappling class (tetori monk, strangler, abyssal bloodrager) you get an overpowered grappler with massive reach and 9/9 spell casting.

If you can use VMC Magus and take their Maneuver Mastery arcana (selecting grappling), you can pull this off without gestalt. I have a character in a Giantslayer game that does this, though I deviated from spell casting some levels in Sylvan Trickster Rogue to get hexes back.

I like that. Nice.

In a bit of a different direction, the white haired witch is a full caster with reach and grappling. But she just doesn’t work with low hp and 1/2 BAB.

But if you pair the white haired witch with a top tier grappling class (tetori monk, strangler, abyssal bloodrager) you get an overpowered grappler with massive reach and 9/9 spell casting.

I’m not convinced that you can be cruel day in, day out, without in fact being evil. But I’m not your DM.

Waterhammer wrote:

The Hellknight Signifer might be of interest. I put one together awhile ago based on Slayer and Wizard, but it might work better based on cleric and something.

Never mind. I was reading more about what is wanted. Hellknight Signifer is probably not it.

I appreciate you taking the time. I'm always interested to learn about new things. Is Hellknight Signifier your own creation, or an already existing class or archetype?

I suppose I should clarify moving forward, my GM this time is allowing all 3rd party content (with approval) with the exception of 3pp base classes. Races, spells, archetypes, gear, feats, etc. are all in play.

I'm pretty sure Waterhammer meant a Hell Knight Signifier.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknigh t-signifer/

If you want a 9/9 caster then there aren't a lot of options:

Druid w/Nature's Fang
Cleric w/Hinterlander -- this is an archery build, but very strong
Sorcerer w/Dragon Disciple
Wizard w/Eldritch Knight -- you gain spell levels but not class features so Sorcerer or Arcanist are less compatible

I'm probably forgetting about something...

The idea is that deities don't, or possibly can't, empower items outside their primary areas of influence. It just seems weird that a deity of fire, for example, would empower a helm of aquatic action. That, and I like the idea of making clerics of different deities more distinct.

I would instead nudge things. Perhaps a cleric of a fire god would have decreased time and/or cost to craft a wand of fireball, and increased time/cost for an ice or water based item.

If you shut down the ability to craft key items you just encourage clerics to avoid crafting entirely.

If your party is melee heavy then protective luck will be all the better. I'd say that if you plan to take misfortune later on then you should go with cackle. Otherwise I lean toward soothsayer for the action economy. You only get a single roll of protection, but that's for each party member in each encounter.

I like to use a witch's hexes for single target offense (slumber, misfortune, ice tomb), and her spells for area effects (web, glitterdust, sleet storm).

Here's my write-up of the witch.

Owl's Witch Guide.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't wands have a limited number of uses in 1e? Why would a wand of cure light wounds be better than the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells in the long run? I understand that hexes are valuable, but I doubt I'll get to play a long enough campaign to notice their absence really.

Also, I'm unfamiliar with the crafting rules, what exactly does crafting a wand at level 1 entail?

Essentially, you get to a wealth level (fairly quickly) where a wand with 50 Cure Light Wounds at 750gp, or 375gp if you craft it, is a wildly efficient use of resources. If your bond item is a wand then crafting it to CLW makes a lot of sense. Note that once the 50 charges have been expended, you can re-craft it to the same or another spell.

In terms of losing hexes to the Hedge Witch's: spontaneous healing (replaces 4th level hex), and empathic healing (8th level), that's actually not terrible. That means you get hexes at 1st & 2nd level. Since hexes are the defining feature of a witch you don't want to lose them without a great reason. If you're playing levels 1-5 then this isn't a huge hit. If you play 1-10 it'll be more noticeable.

Hexes of particular note are:

Slumber -- This is frankly so overpowered that if you take it you should use it somewhat judiciously. On the other hand, in an undead campaign it's a terrible choice.

Flight -- At 5th level, when you get actual flight, this is so good you need a good reason not to take it.

Gift of Consumption and Greater Gift of Consumption -- These two all but eliminate your fortitude save, which is your weak save. And occasionally it's brilliant.

Misfortune & Cackle -- This all but guarantees your opponent will fail saves, not all saves but far more. It also works against the mindless opponents that Slumber misses (constructs, oozes, undead,etc). The more casters your party has, the better this is. If you're the only caster then it's mostly of use against bosses, where you really want a spell to land so it's worth investing a round.

Protective Luck, Cackle & Soothsayer -- You can pre-buff every party member (except yourself) for every encounter. This is so over-powered that you should discuss it with your GM.

And beyond those there are several more that are pretty attractive: healing, prehensile hair, etc.

The first 3-5 are usually one that you're anxiously waiting to get access to. So trading them off for an archetype is a significant cost/benefit decision.

Hope that helps. :)

If you go with the witch, I’d suggest a bonded witch. The hedge witch isn’t worth the loss of two hexes. If your bonded item is a wand the your can craft it into a wand of cure light wounds at 1st level. If your bonded item is a ring, then take the Deception patron so you can craft it into a ring of invisibility.

Another advantage of being a half elf is learning the spell Paragon Surge and casting that to get the feat Extra Hex for access to situational hexes you otherwise would never choose.

Another healing option is the healing hex. That gives you a scaling cure spell 1/party member. When you can afford a wand of cure light wounds, just retrain it to another hex.

i was not happy with the limitations on implements interruption and re-trained out of the weapon implement.

Just curious, which implement did you train into? And were you happy with that choice?

Would you have trained out of weapon if you hadn't gotten reactive strike from Marshal?

Thanks

So IF a caster suddenly got Magical Lineage & Wayange spellhunter (legally), yes, they could prepare spells and take advantage of that fact. You correctly identify RAW for that and roughly the time it takes. Some might want to take Quick Preparation, Flexible Wizardry, Planned Spontaneity, Brilliant Spell Preparation, Magical Epiphany. Some GMs will use a sum of SplLvl*(Number of spells per level) to calculate that time, others just a total count.

My point is that this would allow Magical Lineage: Magic Missile on Monday, and then Magical Lineage: Fireball on Tuesday. That is, with each casting you can choose whichever spell is relevant to the moment. And that flexibility seems like quite an attractive feature.

Let's say a wizard or witch leaves some spell slots open when they prepare their daily spells. They're a half-elf and case paragon surge, taking Additional Traits. As one (or both!) of those traits they take Magical Lineage.

It seems that this allows you to apply magical lineage to any spell, at the last minute, when you prepare spell(s) to fill one or more open slots. However, you only have the duration of paragon surge (10 minutes/level) to cast this spell.

Note that spell preparation specifies, "Preparing some smaller portion of his daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state." So that comes out of your 10 minutes/level.

Does that sound right? Anything I'm missing?

This affects living targets, so who is that? Dragons, plants, oozes, vermin, swarms, and a few extra-planar types: aeons, kytons, inevitables (I'm likely missing something). Oh, and paladins past 3rd level (aura of courage).

Note that this is only for purposes of applying fear or intimidation. That is, this won't allow you to apply slumber to an elf.

Looking first at fear we only have a handful of good options for a witch.

Hexes
Delicious fright -- imposes shaken

Spells
1st, Cause Fear
1st (Dark Sister archetype), Doom
2nd, Mortal Terror
2nd, Scare
3rd (Nightmares patron), Oneiric horror
4th, Fear
5th (Nightmares patron), Nightmare
4th, Phantasmal Killer
6th, Eyebite
9th (Insanity patron), Overwhelming Presence

Of those, I think Fear and Overwhelming Presence are the standouts.

When we consider intimidation, a witch can be very effective.

Traits
Bruising Intellect

Feats
Dazzling Display (with Prehensile Hair and Weapon Focus: hair)
Spirit Talker --> Intimidating Display (only 1 hour/day, but does not require prehensile hair & weapon focus: hair)

Items
Cackling Hag's Blouse
Witching Gown

So, if you're leaning into one of the above then this is a reasonable pre-buff.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

- cleric 5/hinterlander 10/cleric 5 (not full BAB, but 9/9 casting!)

Our DM is very tolerant (almost encouraging of) creating characters that are unique and appeal to us. He is, however ADAMANT none of this 'dipping' stuff. Thinking from a medievalesque world point of view - finding mentors for each of those classes, especially if you let slip you are only using them for X skill :D, is going to be tough.

Hinterlander is a prestige class that's meant to be taken after 5 levels, and it only offers 10 levels. Now if your DM doesn't want prestige classes in a gestalt campaign, that's fair enough. But I wouldn't call cleric/hinterlander "dipping".

Of your options, I think that:

inquisitor/zen archer -- best damage, ridiculous saves & AC
inquisitor/ranger -- still a solid damage dealer and adds ranger spells
inquisitor/cleric+hinterlander -- still solid archery (though not full BAB), but now with a 9/9 caster

I'd think of this as an Inquisitor/Archer, at least if I understand your build goal. And you'll want that archer to be a full BAB class. So who could that be:

- ranger
- zen archer monk
- paladin
- slayer
- cleric 5/hinterlander 10/cleric 5 (not full BAB, but 9/9 casting!)

A sorcerer with the shapechanger bloodline has Mutable Flesh to increase transmutation spells with at least 1 minute per level up to 10 minutes/level (3rd), and 1 hour/level (9th).

As Unarcane pointed out to me, the half-elf spell Paragon Surge is a transmutation spell.

I ranked Dex warpriest as Orange, not low. Orange is "good utility for some strategies." Like archers.

This is a scenario where I think it can be handy to have two ratings/colors. E.g. "The Archer/Caster" could be green with "The Finesse Priest" orange. Though only if you think an archer warpriest is a green-tier build.

Can't use Split Hex. It requires witch levels.

Of course.

Split hex is so good that I’d plan to retrain another feat to it at 10th level rather than waiting for 11th. That and accursed hex are the top tier of hex feats.

I like 4 different thaumaturge builds:

1) champion/sentinel dedications with weapon & tome
2) marshal dedication with regalia
3) psychic dedication with any implements
4) sorcerer dedication with any implements

I'm currently running 1 (and 4 with a free archetype) in Strength of Thousands and thoroughly enjoying it. Casting True Strike once a day is pretty terrific.

Note this, from the sorcerer’s shapechanger bloodline:

“Mutable Flesh (Su) At 3rd level, once per day when you cast a transmutation spell with a duration of 1 minute per level that affects only you, you can increase its duration to 10 minutes per level. At 9th level, you can increase the duration to 1 hour per level.”

Unarcane brought this to my attention.

Good morning all.

This effort was quite the lift. Though it came as a great many folk were moving away from PF1.

So I'm curious, has anyone found it useful? Perhaps, and then perhaps not.

Problem is with that BAB, you're never going to hit anything with an attack unless it's a touch attack

Note that the cartomancer witch delivers these touch spells as ranged touch spells via her cards. So the 1/2 BAB is actually fine.

"In addition, the cartomancer can deliver a touch spell with a thrown card. This uses the Deadly Dealer feat (see below), except the attack is resolved as a ranged touch attack and the card deals no damage of its own. This ability can be used with any card (not just one from the cartomancer’s spell deck)."

I would go with the synthesist since it has the mechanics you’re looking for. Then just reimagine the details as nature themed.

I should have been more clear that this item applies to prepared casters. Your spellbook (or witch familiar) may or may not include additional spells any given morning. These may or may not be spells you would want to actually memorize.

First session I got deific obedience with Count Ranalc. This obedience was easy to perform, granting my character:

"You gain a +4 sacred bonus to AC against attacks whenever you are denied your Dexterity bonus (such as in a surprise round or when paralyzed)."

Potential utility: a +4 sacred AC bonus is pretty attractive, though this one is fairly situational.

Actual utility: none, as this didn't occur.

Azothath -- I like the "flip the tile" idea quite a bit. That is now canon.

The flight hex is great for defense, as well as utility. And False Life might be worth a 2nd level slot.

For 4th level spells I recommend Black Tentacles, Confusion, and Summon Monster IV.

Cheers

If you really want to min max play an Archaeologist Bard/Paladin. You get full BAB, all good saves, CHA to save, a bunch of immunities, good skill, both divine prepared and spontaneous arcane casting, evasion. You are a better rogue than an actual rogue. Make sure on of your spells is Heroism and you can get a +5 (with the trait fates favored) on nearly everything.

Another good combination would be ranger/inquisitor. Again, you get full BAB, all good save, two spell lists, lots of class abilities from both sides. Ranger gives you combat feats that allow you to ignore prerequisites, favored enemy and terrain, Inquisitor gives you bane bonus on some skills, judgements and a domain or inquisition. Once you get to 10th level you have both evasion and stalwart so if you make your save (all good saves) you take no effect from any spell.

It occurs to me that your ranger/inquisitor and my slayer/inquisitor are nearly the same suggestion.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

Alternately, a Slayer/White-haired Witch gives you full BAB, good saves, all the ranger & thief abilities, studied target, full spell casting, 15-30' reach (since you start at 8th level), swift action constrict, free action grapple, swift action trip, and strangulation. And you are not grappled when your hair is grappling an opponent. In fact, this is nuts. You would need the feats: Arcane Armor Training & Arcane Armor Mastery.

Have you tried playing that? It sounds cool at first, but thinking about it, it seems like all the various checks would just get annoying to run every round.

Ha. Fair point.

I've never played a gestalt game. Always wanted to play a white-haired witch, but outside gestalt it's a bit of a sad class (1/2 BAB and low hp).

Let's say you trip/grapple/constrict everyone within 15', then cast vomit swarm. Tell me we're not having fun now. Maybe cast chill touch while you're at it. Add in excruciating deformation when you really feel like it.

A Slayer/Inquisitor gives you full BAB, good saves (fort & reflex, plus fort & will), all the ranger & thief abilities, studied target, and bane. Plus some divine spell casting.

Alternately, a Slayer/White-haired Witch gives you full BAB, good saves, all the ranger & thief abilities, studied target, full spell casting, 15-30' reach (since you start at 8th level), swift action constrict, free action grapple, swift action trip, and strangulation. And you are not grappled when your hair is grappling an opponent. In fact, this is nuts. You would need the feats: Arcane Armor Training & Arcane Armor Mastery.

That’s a ton of work, and pretty insightful. And yes, the goal is Fey hijinx.

My character is a witch, so he:

Trades out summon monster for SNA. Modest loss.
Loses vermin shape, but gains Fey form earlier. Modest gain.

(And yes, the goal is to lose only the “series” polymorph spells, not Alter Self, etc.)

Say that’s worth 1000-2000 gp.

Gains a feat, or rather 50% of two feats. Where neither of those feats are predictable.

Each potential feat is about 30-60% useful.

E.g. Fey obedience to Shyka is amazing, while Ragadahn is likely useless.

Fey Spell List (assuming 70% the value of the original feat)
10000*50%*70% = 3500 gp

Fey Obedience (assuming 50% the value of choosing a specific Eldest)
10000*50%*50% = 2500 gp

That’s 7000-8000 gp, a bit below your 8500. That said, I might be under-valuing early access to fey form.

In our last session we each gained a card/tile and were told to create a magic item corresponding to it.

I've built a fey-themed item. First, a mixed ability that's perhaps more of a negative than a positive.

You gain the Summon Nature's Ally spells on your spell list, but lose any Summon Monster spells. Likewise, you gain Fey Form but lose every other series of polymorph spells (beast shape, monstrous physique, etc.). These are each from the Druid list, so you at least gain Fey Form on the early schedule.

Then the key ability. Each day when you prepare your spells, toss a coin.

Heads: You gain Fey Spell Lore, with the spells added to your spell list whether it is a druid spell list or not. Then spell list is not fixed, and is a random (1d6) from:
- Fey Spell Lore's listed spells
- Cleric Charm domain's spells
- Cleric Luck domain's spells
- Cleric Trickery domain's spells
- Sorcerer Fey bloodline's spells
- Witch Trickery patron's spells

Tails: You gain Fey Obedience to a random member of the Eldest for that day. You must perform the obedience to gain its benefits.

In terms of pricing, I think the first ability is more of a negative than a positive since Summon Monster is generally more flexible than SNA. And Fey Form is among the weakest polymorph spell series. I'm really not sure how to price that.

Then ioun stones that grant a feat are 8,000-10,000 gp. But this is a varying feat that you can't particularly depend on. Each spell list has at least a few good spells, so that's nice. But only a couple of the Eldest's obediences are very useful. So again I'm a bit unsure how to price this.

How about Druid 20/Monk 10 with Feral Combat Training.

That ought to be a formidable wild shape.

With PF2 there's a significant shift toward tactics & teamwork rather than the character-building that characterized PF1. And the significant decrease in attacks of opportunity has radically reshaped mobility.

What are the encounter tactics you've been happy with?

About the best we've mustered runs along the lines of: trip, attack, step away.

Cheers

Give the Gravewalker Witch a look too, while you're at it.

Spells: You get most Cure spells later, but gain a number of nice arcane spells. At 2nd level alone: blindness, euphoric cloud, spectral hand & web.

Hexes: Your first isn't until 2nd level. Note that hexes are supernatural, and hence not subject to spell resistance. This becomes pretty significant around 10-12th level, so it may or may not matter for your campaign.

Your BAB, access to armor & HP are worse.

Cheers.

There's a lot of rules lawyering going on here. Most of it in good faith I believe.

But the degree of this back & forth really makes me think we need an official rules clarification, preferably with a few examples.

Nine Lives is an amazing spell, but I doubt my GM would go for my character discovering catfolk heritage at 15th level. Now, if we found a high level catfolk cleric I would absolutely explore ways to learn it.

From there I still have trouble setting a best choice of two 8th level spells.

Maze -- This is the simple answer for the mindless opponents that witches struggle with. But I'm kind of fine letting the rest of our party shine while I struggle with those. This would be great to have in my back pocket if I knew in advance that we were facing constructs.

Mind Blank -- We're at a level where opponents are clearly scrying on us. And +8 vs mind-affecting spells is nothing to sneeze at. It's maybe not exciting because it just sits there protecting you.

Greater Prying Eyes -- The only significant limitation here is the 25 word command. Hours/level of eyes/level with True Seeing is kind of ridiculous.

Summon Monster VIII -- Oh look, 1d3 greater earth/air elementals. That'll solve a lot of problems.

The 2nd tier (in my appraisal):

Resurrection -- When you need it, you need it. But I guess I'm inclined to buy a scroll if it comes to that.

Storm Bolts -- 15d8 of selective damage is nothing to sneeze at. And I lean toward area/mass effects for my spells. Maybe that 1 round stun pushes this up in my estimation after all.

I do appreciate the thoughts thus far. Cheers all.

Those are good choices. I’d probably skip irresistible dance since you have hexes that achieve similar things with similar limitations

A fine point. Thanks.

We're working our way through War for the Crown, and we're officially in rarefied territory. I get access to my first 8th level spells.

My short list is:

Maze
Mind Blank
Greater Prying Eyes
Summon Monster VIII

Others of interest:

Mass Charm Monster
Irresistible Dance
Resurrection
Storm Bolts (witches have so few ways to actually do damage...)

And then there are the less useful, but still compelling:

Create Demiplane
Curse of Night
Curse Terrain, Supreme
Death Clutch
Fey Gate (I mean, why not?)
Quintessence Mastery
Symbol of Insanity

So, who among us has made these choices? What were you happy with?

Cheers

Standard action summons is enormously valuable. If a combat is decided in perhaps the first four rounds then bringing the additional forces in the first round rather the second makes a substantial difference.

For *any* witch you should strongly consider being a half elf so you can get the 3rd level spell Paragon Surge. This gives you access to any hex for minutes/level. Many witch hexes are far too situational to choose as one of your feats, but are occasionally brilliant.

For a winter witch I also like sylph.

Feats I like for a witch (apart from your DC choices above) include:

Accursed Hex
Improved Familiar -- particularly a fairie dragon or sylvanshee
Improved Initiative -- hex an opponent before the rest of your party pummels them
Split Hex

And, just to repeat myself, I really like using hexes for single-target offense (slumber & ice tomb) and a combination of utility & battlefield control for my spells, e.g. Web, Euphoric Cloud, Glitterdust, Barrow Haze, Sleet Storm, Thorny Entanglement, Black Tentacles, Confusion, etc.

Cheers

Too me both the skald and the inquisitor are my choices to keep. I would swap out the rogue first and the warpreist second. The inquisitor is STR based so will benefit more from the skald’s inspire rage than the unchained rogue with DEX to damage.

From what I understand you need more than one character with social skills for the AP. Both the skald and inquisitor excel in this area and both of them are better at it than the rogue will be. Trying to get something past a well-built inquisitor is extremely difficult. Fooling a rogue is fairly easy in comparison to fooling either of those classes.

To me other than the rogue this party has some serious synergy going. When the warpriest cast blessing of fervor and the skald grants inspire rage the whole party starts acting like full BAB classes. Then the inquisitor uses Bane and studied strike to boost himself up even farther. All three of the other characters have good fortitude and will saves. The will saves of the inquisitor and warpriest are going to be about as high as you can get. The rogue is definitely the one that needs to worry about will saves.

I'd swap the rogue out for one of:

Magus -- 6/9 arcane spell casting, and a solid martial
Wizard/Arcanist/Sorcerer -- 9/9 arcane spell casting
Witch -- 9/9 arcane-ish spell casting + hexes

The witch really shines using single target hexes, area effect spells, and rounding that out with summon monster.

That’s said, the full winter witch gives you overlapping blasting and debuffs that add up to a solid package.

Good morning. A few suggestions. Take whatever suits you, ignore the rest. :)

Elf traits:
Replace Weapon Familiarity with Overwhelming Magic.
Or, replace Weapon Familiarity with Fleet Footed for +2 initiative.

Feats:
- Dazing won't do you a lot of good because you don't have many spells that cause damage. Though a dazing spiked pit sounds kind of brilliant.

Spells:
2nd: Blindness, Euphoric Cloud
3rd: ***Sleet Storm***
5th: Baleful Polymorph, Overland Flight, Suffocation

In short, my only strong recommendation is Sleet Storm. Cheers

Maybe if you have bad DCs, but Grease is a solid spell through mid levels. A big part of spellcasting is picking the right tool for the job. Big humanoid monsters also tend to have relatively bad reflex saves and rely heavily on their weapons. Grease is also very helpful if a teammate gets grappled. It's a very versatile spell that can stay relevant till fairly high levels.

Once my character cast Grease on a stairway that soldiers were climbing to attack us. Another character had summoned ... something large ... maybe a bear. So he sent the bear charging down the greased stairs.

Cyder wrote:

Main issue my player is having with Thaumaturge is finding an archetype that works well with it. We are playing with free archetype and she doesn't want to take an archetype lile talisman dabbler ir Eldritch Research cause its just more or the same and doesn't really expand the character flavour much. As Thaum is so action hungry many of the other archetypes don't gel well with it.

Happy if people have good suggestions. We are playing AV. 3 person party and they are smashing it so far. Her thaum background is storm survivor, her family were sailors before the ship went down

My Thaumaturge is a Marshal.

I looked at archetypes for a thaumaturge pretty closely. I think your best choices are:

Champion -- Heavy armor, healing touch & champion's reaction
Marshal -- aura w/will save bonuses, dread or inspiring stance
Psychic -- cantrip & spells
Sentinel -- Heavy armor & bulwark, can be stacked on top of Champion
Sorcerer -- spells & bloodline