Northern Spotted Owl's page

There are a bunch of two-in-one implements that are logically consistent. Any implement could also be regalia. You could have a tome with mirrored cover. A spiked shield could be both a shield and a weapon.

But those are all too-clever bits of rules lawyering that only a particularly accommodating DM would accept. The Thaumaturge is designed to require holding one implement in each hand.

In the topic at hand, I’d suggest a champion archetype for a Thaumaturge in a front-liner role. The combination of of lay-on-hands and shield reaction are great additions. Plus, you get access to heavy armor.

Let's consider a witch at 5th & 8th levels, respectively. We'll give her an int of 20.

Level 5
Uses area control spells, then targets individual opponents with hexes. Has the feat Accursed Hex so she can reuse Slumber when a target successfully saves. Falls back on Misfortune/Cackle for constructs/undead/etc who are immune to Slumber.
Feats: accursed hex
Hexes: slumber, misfortune, cackle
Spells
1st: enlarge person, keyhole, mage armor, sow thought
2nd: blindness, euphoric cloud, web
3rd: sleet storm, summon monster iii

Level 8
Buffs allies via Soothsayer/Protective Luck/Cackle at the start of day and after every encounter. Note that Protective Luck is one of the few hexes without a limitation of 1/day/target.
Hexes: protective luck, soothsayer, cackle, flight
Spells
1st: command, ears of the city, enlarge person, hermean potential, mage armor
2nd: detect thoughts, glitterdust, perceive cues, web
3rd: lightning bolt, summon monster iii, stinking cloud, thorny entanglement
4th: black tentacles, confusion, summon monster iv

I’ve been playing a witch from level 5-16 for the last while. I’ve never thought he didn’t hold his own. And intermittently he just wins an encounter with the right spell or hex. But I joined the campaign at level 5, so missed the first few levels when a caster is weakest.

hmmm, I'm gonna use a spoiler as it's more general Advice

Northern Spotted Owl and I run wizards a bit differently. There are many paths to success.
** spoiler omitted **

I don't disagree with a word of that.

From that list alone I’m feeling a strong caster expending a top level spell could consistently account for 1/4 to 1/2 of enemies neutralized in one round (or all in the right circumstance).

Do those estimates seem right?

What about for mid-level spells, reduce enemy effectiveness 1/4?

The mid-levels have fewer of these mass/area effect spells. Favorites of mine include: mass debilitating pain, mass suggestion, or mass mydriatic spontenaity. So the Heighten metamagic feat becomes more attractive. You also start to get some of the bleakest single target spells: baleful polymorph, suffocation, dominate person, feeblemind.

You also run into more Spell Resistance, so you need feats like Spell Penetration and eventually Greater Spell Penetration. If you're an int-based caster then a numerology cylinder helps there too.

I or one of my party members have won a combat with almost any one of these spells at some point. One of my favorite moments was when my witch cast Web into a hallway of opponents, and then followed that up with Vomit Swarm: Spiders.

Another favorite moment was when our wizard cast Summon Monster for a Giant Scorpion (which takes a full round), another party member opened the door into a room full of our opponents, my witch cast Sleet Storm, the wizard cast Spiked Pit, and we closed the door and wedged it shut.

So everyone in the room was blind, while the scorpion had tremorsense. Sure, that was three of our best spells on one encounter, but it was the capstone of a module. Between falling into the spiked pit while blindly trying to find the door, and the giant scorpion grabbing & poisoning them we were left with far few opponents.

Some of the best combat spells are area effects. I'll lean toward arcane spells, since I know them best.

2nd
create pit
euphoric cloud
glitterdust
web

3rd
fireball
sleet storm
spiked pit
stinking cloud

4th
black tentacles
confusion
fear
ice storm
wall of fire
wall of ice

To those add Haste and the Summon Monster spells.

I or one of my party members have won a combat with almost any one of these spells at some point. One of my favorite moments was when my witch cast Web into a hallway of opponents, and then followed that up with Vomit Swarm: Spiders.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

If a Cartomancer takes the prehensile hair hex they have hair with a strength matching their intelligence. If you throw your cards with your hair I would think you would get the corresponding str bonus to damage. You're only doing perhaps 10 damage, but I suppose that's better than 5.

"Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand."

No throwing cards with your eyebrows, unfortunately.

Parentheses getting everyone in the thread.

Well spotted

If a Cartomancer takes the prehensile hair hex they have hair with a strength matching their intelligence. If you throw your cards with your hair I would think you would get the corresponding str bonus to damage. You're only doing perhaps 10 damage, but I suppose that's better than 5.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

Swine (8th level or above) -- Not as powerful as Slumber, but no mind-affecting limitations.

Also no save. It just works.

It's pretty terrific, at least past 8th level. But there is a save, note the parenthetic "(Will negates)".

Swine hex

Swine (Su) (Heroes of Golarion pg. 15): The witch can partially transform an enemy into a pig. The effects of the transformation are mostly cosmetic and do not change the creature’s size category or overall shape, but the affected creature takes a –2 penalty on Will saving throws for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s Intelligence modifier (Will negates). At 8th level, the affected creature’s hands (or paws) turn into hooves, preventing it from using claw attacks or taking any action that would require the creature to use its fingers.

You should look at which hexes you really want. I think these are the best of them:

- slumber
- flight
- misfortune (constructs, undead, etc.)
- cackle, to support misfortune
- ice tomb

Alternately, the buff hex build is very strong:

- protective luck -- does not have the 1/day restriction
- soothsayer
- fortune

By 10th level you have 5 hexes as a Cartomancer.

For your first question, the Stargazer does not advance your *witch level* and so does not get you to a major hex. You will want 10 levels of actual witch.

The key feature of a Cartomancer is Deadly Dealer.

- You can deliver touch spells at a *ranged* touch attack
- At 2nd level you get Deadly Dealer: Your cards do 1d4 damage, as if they were a dart, with a bit of bonus damage from Arcane Strike

So you'll want to prioritize your dex score. Here are some particularly nice touch spells from the witch list.

1st: Frostbite, Touch of blindness
2nd: Touch of idiocy
3rd: Bestow curse, Excruciating deformity, Trial of fire & acid, Vampiric touch
4th: Fleshworm infestation
5th: Curse of unexpected death
6th: none
7th: Bestow Greater Curse, Harm, Plane shift
8th: Irresistible dance
9th: none

On your Stargazer familiar question, yes that's how I read that. Your Stargazer familiar would only scale with your Stargazer levels.

I've seen some builds that take 2 or 4 levels of white-haired witch.

One option isn't exclusively grapple focused, but stacks debuffs to include grappled.

Defiler: White-haired Witch 2 / Hexcrafter N

If you google "white-haired witch defiler" you'll find a fair bit of detail. It stacks grappled, tripped, fatigued (from spellstrike frostbite).

I'll run through a few items.

First, have you had a direct, non-confrontational conversation with them? That is, can you just tell them that combat is getting frustrating because their turns take so long. That it would really help everyone to enjoy combat more if they had planned their turn by the time it came around.

And, if they are using their phones primarily to browse instagram or whatever then I'd mention that. It's just selfish to disengage from the combat and then not know what's going on when your turn comes around. Obviously it would be inappropriate & confrontational to phrase it like that, but they need to hear that they're making their friend's play less enjoyable. And that message has to come from a place of genuine friendship.

After that I'd suggest that these players might want to use simpler classes. E.g. lean toward martial classes rather than casters.

They could also have 2 or 3 plans to fall back on for their turns. If 70-80% of the time they just chose from among three "standard turns" that might help.

You could also prime some of this organically. E.g. your warpriest calls out that they need the ranger's help with this ogre.

It's a touch spell with no save, but when/why would I do this versus my flaming sword attack? Against a high AC target maybe.

You have a good chance (touch attack) of doing modest damage (3d6 = 10.5) and occasionally getting a free intimidate. It's a pretty poor choice as far as I can tell.

If you haven't cast Web on a hallway full of opponents and then followed it up with Vomit Swarm: spiders, well then you're just not getting the most out of your witch.

My take on good hexes:

Evil Eye is only fine. It softens up a target, but it also takes a round. Since combat is usually decided in the first 3-4 rounds, that's a lot.

Misfortune is almost always better, their attacks are worse and so are their saves. And it works on any target, where undead/constructs/swarms/mindless are a witch's weak spot.

Slumber is so good it's almost broken, so much so that some players/DMs avoid it. It steals the lime light. And it's mind-affecting.

Soothsayer/Protective Luck/Fortune -- These are terrifically powerful. Sure, fortune is only 1/day but you can either put it on one melee party member before each encounter or save it for when you suspect a big encounter is coming.

Flight -- You're a fool if you don't take this. Or at least your character concept better preclude it. :)

Swine (8th level or above) -- Not as powerful as Slumber, but no mind-affecting limitations. Also, it came out near the end of Pathfinder 1e's active production run so there aren't a lot of clarification. E.g. does it prevent somatic gestures or require some sort of roll against ... something? If someone is running, might they trip when their feet transform to hooves? Or are they now better at climbing?

Prehensile Hair -- Agreed, it's redundant for a Cartomancer.

And the Summon Monster spells are of course terrific.

In one memorable encounter my witch and our wizard paired up to cast: Sleet Storm (blocks all sight) and Summon Monster: Giant Scorpion (tremorsense) into a room full of enemies just as another party member opened the door.

Finally, have a look at Northern Spotted Owl's Witch Guide. It is very good and up to date.

Kind of you. Here: it is.

In terms of healing, good options include:

- Buy a wand of cure light wounds. This is an incredible value.
- The Healing hex is pretty great at lower levels, but decreasingly worth the hex slot once you can afford a wand of CLW.
- The Healing patron gets you Lesser Restoration, which is one of the key spells the Witch list lacks for this role.

For hexes, I'd look at:
- Fortune -- This pairs really well with Soothsayer, even if it's only 1/day. A hit that would have a 50% chance jumps to 75% (since 50% x 50% = 25% of missing on both rolls). And it's in fact over-powered if any of your party members lean into critical hits. Consider a weapon with a 19-20 crit range and a character that takes Improved Critical to expand that to 17-20. With the Fortune hex applied they would need to roll 1-16 twice in a row (80% x 80% = 64%), which means that a full 36% of the time they crit.
- Prehensile Hair -- This is a ton of fun, it can allow you to deliver touch range spells for a modestly safe distance (consider a wand of lesser reach too). And it adds a high strength character to your party if you don't otherwise have one.
- Swine -- Once you're 8th level this (particularly when it's backed by the feat Split Hex) is a ton of fun, and effective too. Martial characters can't hold weapons, in fact any character drops what they're holding. Spell casters may not be able to cast spells with a somatic component (run this past your DM in advance so you're on the same page).

For spells I think you really want to consider flavor as well as tactical impact. So I'll list some of both.

1st
enlarge person
hermean potential -- a great spell when someone must make their saving throw(s), make a skill check, or hit a tough opponent (overlaps with Fortune hex there).
obscuring mist -- place this on top of enemy archers or spell casters. use it to sneak through an opening in the trees. cast it into a room full of enemies just as an ally opens the door.
sow thought -- this is a permanent effect. "that ogre doesn't care if I live or die, I'm not fighting for them any longer" "that witch looks trustworthy" "I think I saw movement over there, I should go investigate"
unbreakable heart -- counters fear & confusion. provides additional saves vs hostile control. a lot of value once you're no longer relying on 1st level spells.

2nd
blindness -- this just shuts down an opponent, can end an encounter or shift it in your favor quickly
euphoric cloud -- great battlefield control
glitterdust -- reveal the invisible and temporarily blind some of your opponents
vomit swarm -- a decent spell, since many opponents can't handle a swarm. and enormously fun.
web -- great control, and pairs well with vomit swarm: spiders

3rd
sleet storm -- blocks *all sight*, 1/2 movement
stinking cloud -- area effect nauseated
thorny entanglement -- reduce movement, modest damage, very likely to shut down enemy casters

I would add the Fortune hex to that lineup. Another fun option is Prehensile Hair to help with some of your touch-range curses.

I’ll look at spells tomorrow.

You really need to think about your reactions, because that's a semi-reliable 4th action. Your best choices are:

- weapon implement/implement's interuption (5th level): very good, but only against your Exploit Vulnerability target

- fighter archetype/reactive strike (4th level): decide whether this is worth 3 feats

- marshal archetype/reactive strike (8th level): this archetype complements the regalia, but delays your reaction until 8th level

- champion archetype/champion's reaction (6th level): you have your choice of Causes, and hence reactions, and you can take Lay on Hands at 4th. And lay on hands gets you a focus point.

I suggest you go with something like:

Free Archetype: Champion
Normal Archetype: Marshal

That gets you two reactions by 8th level, which should be enough to increase your effective actions/round to nearly 4.

Back to the original question, running out of spells is what attracted me to the witch. I think optimal play is for a witch to cast area effect spells (web, glitterdust, sleet storm, confusion) and then target individuals with hexes.

Thank you both. That puts me in the right ballpark.

For any race that is Paragon Surge:T4@7 (see Liberation subdomain).

Nice catch on the Self-Realization Sub-domain. That's a useful touchpoint.

And a 15% discount seems reasonable. There are a *lot* of other feats out there, but for a witch or shaman (hexcrafter, sylvan trickster, what-have-you), Extra Hex is often going to be your choice.

1. The character is a half elf, so I was hand-waving that detail.

2. I only see a modification for slotless items (2x). But that's why I asked, for details I'm missing...

Thank ya

Good morning. I have a couple of custom witch (not exclusively witches though) items that I'd like pricing feedback on, mostly due to their limitations.

Ring: Paragon Surge 2/day, can only choose the feat Extra Hex.

For a spell effect that comes to:

3nd level spell * 5th level caster * (2 uses / 5) * 1800 = 10,800

But how much of a discount do we add for restricting it to a single feat? Note that Paragon Surge only permits feats that you otherwise qualify for, so only a class with hexes can use this ring.

Necklace: Works as a rod of reach, but only for spells with the curse descriptor.

The rod costs 11,000, so the necklace would be the same (unless I'm missing something). But again, how much of a discount should we apply for the curse restriction?

Thanks all.

If you go slayer, you can use slayer talents to pick up ranger combat style two weapon fighting. This allows you to ignore the prerequisite for feats gained through taking those talents. This means you can build a STR based two weapon build. Take power attack and weapon focus at first level. Use slayer talents at 2nd, 6th and 10th level to pick up two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting and either greater two weapon fighting or double slice. Accomplished Sneak Attacker will get you an extra d6 of sneak attack. Take improved critical if you want, but keep in mind that sneak attack damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.

You can also pick up combat expertise and quick dirty trick to use your first attack to blind your target which would allow you to get your sneak attack damage on the rest of your attacks. Greater dirty trick would also be useful. Doing this will take up all your feats and talents up till 9th level. You will need to take the combat trick to pick up an extra combat feat if you go this route.

If you don’t go with my optional suggestions the rest of your feats and talent can be spent on other things. This character would deal less damage but have a lot more things they can do out of combat.

We had a slayer built along these lines. He took improved crit, two weapon, power attack, and wielded two wakizashi. Impressive damage overall.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

Joynt Jezebel wrote:

My suggestion- play a witch or play a monk. Trying to do both is... sub-optimal.

I think this could be a fine strategy for a monk that wants to dip 1 level into witch. Your BAB is 1 level behind, but hex strike + slumber is powerful enough to justify that at lower-to-mid levels.

I mean, if 20-40% of your rounds to drop someone with slumber that's kind of amazing. And the opponents you're going to be punching are often ones with good fort or reflex saves, but poorer will saves.

In a campaign from 1-10 level I think this is viable.

Problem is that as a Monk that never gets more than 1 level of Witch, your Hex Save DC will remain at 1st level.

Related to this, VMC Witch (which was mentioned a while back) it has this problem as well until you get to be 15th level for the first Hex you chose to be advanced . . . to 8th level, and the NEXT one is stuck at 1st level. Second worst VMC ever, after VMC Gunslinger.

The the witch VMC is pretty bad. I don't even mention it.

Here's my take on the witch 1/monk N slumber-strike though. Sure you have a low DC, perhaps 11 or 12. Let's say you're punching a 6th level fighter with a will save of +2 and a cloak for another +1. So they only need an 8 to save. But that's still a 35% chance of going down.

If you're punching a 10th level paladin (will save +7, wis +2, cloak +2) you're only succeeding when they roll a natural 1. So you don't bother.

Is a 20-40% success rate on slumber-strike worth 1 BAB and 2 feats? In a campaign that runs from 1st to 6th or maybe 10th level, I think so. At least as long as you're savvy about your targets.

and in most cases it doesn't last all that long.

The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action.

So a slumber hex can last a surprising while. Consider an unchained rogue with a weapon in one hand and the other hand free. How highly would you rate a feat that let it apply slumber to an unarmed attack, including any attacks of opportunity? Again, most of the opponents you're in melee with don't have great will saves.

At 8th level the swine hex gets quite strong. They drop whatever they're holding. They probably can't cast any spells that have a somatic component. But for a hexcrafter or sylvan trickster with a 14 or 16 int you're only getting 2 or 3 rounds, compared with 5 or more rounds for a witch.

My suggestion- play a witch or play a monk. Trying to do both is... sub-optimal.

I think this could be a fine strategy for a monk that wants to dip 1 level into witch. Your BAB is 1 level behind, but hex strike + slumber is powerful enough to justify that at lower-to-mid levels.

I mean, if 20-40% of your rounds to drop someone with slumber that's kind of amazing. And the opponents you're going to be punching are often ones with good fort or reflex saves, but poorer will saves.

In a campaign from 1-10 level I think this is viable.

I'd ask your GM about the armor as *2 lrg humanoid or *4 lrg non-humanoid is a considerable base cost increase considering your form is mostly humanoid. That ruling is a 'GM caveat'.

you know your campaign; will you get a +4 Dex belt? will you be able to upgrade the 4mirror armor to Tatami-do later? It's a matter of take the hit now or later.

"Items that can save you" thread will have lower cost items.

I have to agree. Since you just rolled trox, it seems a bit much for you to have to pay 4x for armor. Hopefully you and the GM can agree to at least get you an initial set of armor at 1x.

On hexes in regards to sylvan trickster, I would be interested in your material since I am presently playing one.

Would it be useful to have a synopsis of good hex choices for other classes? Not the shaman, since that class is really its own beast with its own hexes, etc.

hexcrafter
sylvan trickster
hoaxer bard
hexenhammer
divine scourge
purifier

stargazer
vmc witch

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

{. . .}

re: Hex Class Feature -- Fair points. I agree too, a Hexcrafter or Sylvan Trickster should each be able to use Hex Strike.

I'm not convinced that either of them want to go with unarmed strikes. A shame that Hexcrafter and Esoteric Magus don't stack.
{. . .}

What about Hexcrafter Magus VMC Monk? Maybe even start with Improved Unarmed Strike, and then retrain it when VMC Monk comes online. Although you would need to spend a Magus Arcana on Ki Arcana to get the best use of it, and the options for trading out armor for something that doesn't clash with VMC Monk are rather limited (Staff Magus seems best, although Hex Strike won't work through your staff, so you'll have to keep switching between your staff and Unarmed Strikes).

I was going to say Sylvan Trickster Rogue VMC Monk, but then the Evasion ability gets duplicated.

Improved Unarmed Strike > Ascetic Style > Hex Strike

You probably want to be human so you can bring this online by 2nd level.

But I think we're no longer talking about a witch guide. :)

That's the sort of logic that would have you rule that neither Druids or Rangers can use the Totem Beast or Boon Companion feats because neither of them have class features labeled as "animal companion" (they're labeled Nature Bond or Hunter's Bond) even though they are clearly meant to be able to use these feats.

The more common standard is that so long as you have a hex as a class feature you have a hex class feature. And the Hexcrafter's class features that grant hexes even specifically have "hex" in the name.

re: Hex Class Feature -- Fair points. I agree too, a Hexcrafter or Sylvan Trickster should each be able to use Hex Strike.

I'm not convinced that either of them want to go with unarmed strikes. A shame that Hexcrafter and Esoteric Magus don't stack.

I come away thinking that Witch 1/Monk X is a pretty great low level build. And that Witch/Monk is a solid gestalt build, maybe with Kirin feats to mitigate how MAD it would be.

At any rate, Northern Spotted Owl, I would sooner recommend just doing an unarmed strike build as a Hexcrafter Magus or Sylvan Trickster Unchained Rogue if you want to do a Hex Strike build. If you want to use Hex Strike multiple times in the same round, you will need Combat Stamina. And since the feat is unhelpfully worded, I will point out that a combat stamina pool is equal to your BAB plus your constitution modifier. You can recover 1 point of combat stamina with 1 minute of rest.

Sadly, neither the Hexcrafter or Sylvan Trickster has the "hex class feature" that Hex Strike requires. I believe only the witch herself has that.

In terms of Combat Stamina, I don't see how it gets you past the limit of 1 quick action per round.

My mistake.

I am not so sold on hex strike however.

To hit someone with a hex you use a standard action the target gets a save.

To use hex strike, you also need to add improved unarmed strike and hex strike, 2 feats.

Then, to effect someone with hex strike you use a standard action, roll to hit. If you miss nothing happens and if you hit then the target still gets a save. And you need to take hex strike a second time to be able to use it with a second hex and so on.

I don't like the strategy especially if you have levels of the 1/2 BaB and d6 HP witch class.

Counterpoint :) If you're a monk, and you want to hit people with your fists anyway, then getting a "free" slumber 1/round at the cost of 1 BAB might be a pretty good bargain.

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.

So you only need to take 1 feat, which isn't a huge investment.

The touch attack limitation is on a conductive weapon. A hex strike applies to an unarmed attack.

If you make a successful unarmed strike against an opponent, in addition to dealing your unarmed strike damage, you can use a swift action to deliver the effects of the chosen hex to that opponent.

So I think the witch 1/monk X build is okay. Well, almost so. Because the hex is delivered as a swift action you cannot do this twice in a single round via flurry of blows and accursed hex.

I did add a brief write-up for a witch 1/monk X with: slumber, hex strike & accursed hex. This is an over-powered build at lower levels, but falls off because your hex DC doesn't progress.

I do think it would be a terrifying gestalt build.

I would certainly not rule that way. Hexes are at will abilities, meaning that they have unlimited uses. A target can only be affected once by a hex per 24 hours, but a conductive weapon only affects them once so that is no problem. It just consumes two "uses" in order to power that single attempt. That all works fine, and you can still only target a person once per 24 hours for your hexing attempt.

The problem is that most hexes are not touch attacks and the Hex Strike feat does nothing to make it so. You can only use a conductive weapon with the Blight hex, which is not worthwhile. It is really only the Seducer archetype that has an at will touch attack that you can use with a conductive weapon (and this ability is technically not a hex, as far as I can tell), which is why I pointed out the possibility of using a conductive reach weapon, such as a longspear, to try to randomly affect enemies with your single AoO. But you would want to try to improve the attack roll with spells like Heroism at the least.

I feel like the GM has to rule in the player's favor on both the touch attack as well as the uses-per-day limitation. And that's too much for me to suggest a conductive weapon.

Incidentally, the guide has Greater Magic Weapon in blue for the Devotion patron (where it is a 4th level spell) but in green for the Strength patron (where it is a 3rd level spell). One of these two ratings needs fixing.

Nice catch. I downgraded greater magic weapon to green.

What do we think about:

Witch 1/Monk X

Note that, "At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat." So you can take Hex Strike as your 1st level feat.

Which hex do you choose with Hex Strike then? With Slumber, and later Accursed Hex, you have Flurry of Nap Time. Or you could opt for Evil Eye to get Flurry of Debuffs (-2 AC, -2 attacks, -2 saves, ...). A human could take Hex Strike/Slumber, and nab Accursed Hex as their bonus feat.

The main weakness here is that your hex DC doesn't progress. But at lower levels I think you'd be a real menace.

melee or ranged touch attack Hex Strike adds a hex to a normal unarmed strike not a touch attack.

This sounds like a reasonable bit of GM latitude. Worth asking.

expend two uses of his magical ability hexes, at least the ones you use with hex strike, are usable once a day per target, so you can't pay this cost.

But yes, this is a bridge too far. I'll remove the note.

He ruled that "for now" and Ghostwalk takes a move action. I don't have Ghostwalk yet.

That seems a rather generous ruling, but hey take what you can get. And yes, Ghostwalk definitely takes a move action.

Hitting with a natural attack won't trigger Ghostwalk as such.

I meant this in the context of using Hex Strike. 1. strike (and hopefully hit), 2. use hex strike to apply evil eye or slumber, 3. use move action to ghostwalk. Next round: repeat. With evil eye you can do this repeatedly as you debuff various rolls. While with slumber you only the 1 round/target of ghostwalk, but if they fail their save you don't even need it.

But your approach of hitting them 20 times/round probably works too. :)

So your GM has ruled that during the minutes duration of prehensile hair and/or flight you're just constantly vanishing?

And he allows you to take multiattack (a bit generous, but not nuts or anything). Sounds like you're stacking up as many natural attacks as you can to increase the odds that one hits, triggering ghostwalk.

I don't follow the multiweapon angle. Ghostwalk is only triggered by an unarmed attack, right? So this must be something separate.

Thanks all around!

I believe that the Sylvan Trickster is one of those archetypes that's power was never properly explored. One side effect of this is that I keep bothering my poor GM for rulings as I want to use hexes in different ways. What rulings you get can really affect the way the character plays too.

What rulings have you run into? That sounds like key info.

I like ashiftah witch 2/sylvan trickster X. If you take hex strike (evil eye) you have unlimited sneak attack while steadily debuffing your target. Alternately with hex strike (slumber) you take more of an all-or-nothing approach.

I added a preliminary write-up.

Joynt Jezebel wrote:

"Rogue, Sylvan Trickster – An analogous build to the defiler is promising, but needs closer investigation (and ideally someone who has played it…) for a more certain rating."

A quote from your guide Northern Spotted Owl.

I have played this archetype, once previously and again now, though not very far in terms of level.

Do you want some details for your guide?

I ask because if I remember right you saying something like PF1 is in it's dying throws, sad but true, and you are moving on.

I do think most players have moved to PF2, but I'll update the guide whenever there's a reason to. So yeah, I'd love to hear how that went.

@JoyntJezebel

Just wondering how your Sylvan Trickster panned out? Any insight or feedback of note?

Cheers

"Rogue, Sylvan Trickster – An analogous build to the defiler is promising, but needs closer investigation (and ideally someone who has played it…) for a more certain rating."

A quote from your guide Northern Spotted Owl.

I have played this archetype, once previously and again now, though not very far in terms of level.

Do you want some details for your guide?

I ask because if I remember right you saying something like PF1 is in it's dying throws, sad but true, and you are moving on.

I do think most players have moved to PF2, but I'll update the guide whenever there's a reason to. So yeah, I'd love to hear how that went.

That's why I said concentrate on rider effects instead of d6s. You just spend ONE Hex on this archetype, and you take feats like Turn (or Rebuke) Undead, which work just as well for you as for a Cleric, because the Channeling DC scales with your effective Cleric level, not your number of Channeling dice (this also works for Clerics such as Evangelist that trade out some Channeling dice). If you are a divinely connected Witch, you can get Variant Channeling, and some of the rider effects don't care how many dice of Channeling you have, just what your effective Cleric level is.

I'm almost certain that I have these details in the guide thanks to you. I mean, without Turn Undead, etc. this is just an awful archetype.

I just updated the write-up. Before I said that taking additional d6 is usually not worth it. Now I specifically recommend never taking additional d6.

Just to give a quick reply to the above:

Agent of the Grave: I'd just bring up Prestigious Spellcaster here.

Cyphermage: I'm surprised you mentioned the option that uses full caster level (Enhanced Scroll) instead of the one that lets you use basically your spell DC (Insightful Scroll). If you really want, you can just scribe or purchase a scroll at a higher-than-minimum caster level. It's just more expensive.

Brewkeeper: The Battlepot Cauldron is really just an item for allies, yes. But when it comes to Poisoner's Gloves, you can already use two-weapon fighting without any feat. The feat only reduces the penalties. Since you are presumably attacking yourself (this will trigger Spite, by the way, but you can use that for another buff) or a willing ally, the attack should be an automatic success anyway and apply two draughts. If your familiar has hands, it can use it as well (and even without hands a familiar can smear a single draught on someone). Another point regarding the Brewkeeper is that your entire party can just drink a lot of draughts right before combat thanks to the fact that no one will hear you drinking the same way they would hear you casting spells.

Skin Send: This spell explicitly bestows upon you construct type, traits, and immunities (including immunity to mind-affecting effects, fortitude saves that don't apply to objects, death effects, necromancy effects, and much more). It's crazy. You shouldn't underestimate that. You can also self-heal with...

Agent of the Grave -- added

Cyphermage -- updated, thanks

Brewkeeper -- I added a note about the action efficiency here. Thanks again. I'll leave poisonser's glove shenanigans(tm) aside though.

Skin Send -- I suppose there are scenarios where having construct immunities really matters. Added.

Phantasmal Killer -- Understood, but I'll still pass. If you've boosted your spell DCs (via which ever mechanism), there are still better choices than an all or nothing single target spell. At least to me.

Debilitating Pain -- I had the Mass version, but skipped this. Added, thanks.

Blend -- added

Share Shape -- I added a monkey mention

Your characters will have lots that they can do, but still only 3 actions per turn. I think that reactions will give you a lot of additional bandwidth. Accordingly, I would prioritize either fighter or champion.

@Northern Spotted Owl

I believe I have found a [rare] error in your guide. It is from the section on roles, specifically buffing and the section bolded.

I also copied the rules for Accursed Hex, again with the relevant section highlighted. You don't get a save against Fortune, so that Hex is not one of those that can benefit from Accursed Hex.

The use of Soothsayer and Fortune Hex on a character wielding a weapon with a high crit range works fine as far as I can see, it's just the addition of Accursed Hex which I don't think works.

"Buffing
A witch must specifically choose her hexes to be effective at buffing. While you have a few good spells (heroism, etc) for buffing, the key here lies in a few hexes:
Protective Luck, Soothsayer (and Cackle) – Protective Luck is not limited to 1/day/target, and Soothsayer allows it to be applied in advance.
Fortune & Accursed Hex – Take Fortune after the above suite. A weapon with a high crit range (18-20), the feat improved critical, and the Fortune hex will get a critical success on half of its attacks. With Accursed Hex to apply it 2/day, Soothsayer to apply it in advance, and Cackle to sustain it through an encounter, this is a massive buff."

"Accursed Hex
You can make a second attempt at failed hexes.

Prerequisites: Hex class feature

Benefit: When you target a creature with a hex that cannot target the same creature more than once per day, and that creature succeeds at its saving throw against the hex’s effect, you can target the creature with the same hex a second time before the end of your next turn. If the second attempt fails, you can make no further attempts to target that creature with the same hex for 1 day.

Normal: You can only target a creature with these hexes once per day."

You are correct. Thanks for catching that!

Fixed.

^ . . . And if you have the Healing Patron, you're not even so poor. And the Herb Witch archetype complements this. So does the Hex Channeler archetype to a lesser degree if you concentrate on rider effects instead of d6s (but you can't take both archetypes, and in most cases Herb Witch is going to be better, the obvious exception being if you're Knee Deep in the Dead). Hedge Witch is also complementary to the Healing Patron, and is compatible with Herb Witch or Hex Channeler (again not both at once).

Since I have the doc open, I added brief sections on party roles for a witch: Control, Healing, Buffing, Debuffing & Blasting. Are there others I'm neglecting? You're a full caster, with all that means (divination, teleport, lots of tools in your kit).

Mostly this is to pull together the key threads, as you mention for healing, without having them spread across the guide.