Northern Spotted Owl's page

I think the DC is far too high. This sort of ritual does not give the PCs an advantage in combat, or with critical skill checks, or any particular utility. It helps with their relationship with local communities. I agree that level 2 or 3 is reasonable.

And then I think the failure results are too harsh. I would have a failure do nothing, and a critical failure correspond to your current failure result, i.e.

Critical Success: Rainfall is either increased by the normal seasonal maximum for three days or reduced to none for the next cycle of Celeres moon, depending on the ritual intent
Success: Rainfall is increased by what is typical for the season or reduced by 1/2 for the next 24 hours, according to the intention of the ritual
Failure: No effect
Critical Failure: The same effects as success, but opposite the intentions of the ritual

It only grants +1 AC, so I imagine it functions like a buckler.

In terms of a druid/bloodrager, other bloodlines that are just generally solid all seem to start with the letter A:

Aberrant
4th level: extra 5' reach
plus some resistances to conditions

Abyssal
4th level: grow 1 size larger, i.e. wildshape into a large creature and increase to huge (when you want to)
plus various resistances to energy types

Arcane
4th: blur when you rage
8th: haste when you rage

Do you want Crocodile domain for grappling or sneak attack? Since you mention improved familiar, that's clearly part of it.

I'd suggest you go with a class that gets you full BAB. A druid has good will & fort saves, so a class that has good dex saves would be great too.

Druid/Unchained Monk -- Full BAB, good dex saves. Wis bonuses to AC are great for you. I think there's some feat that lets you use Flurry of Blows with natural attacks.

Druid/Tetori Monk -- You don't get full BAB, but you grapple at full CMB/CMD. Could be great with that Crocodile domain.

Druid/Slayer -- Full BAB, good dex saves. You get more sneak attack dice, studied target, and slayer access to ranger & rogue feats without necessarily meeting the prereqs.

Druid/Barbarian -- Full BAB, 12d HD, increased speed, and rage, beast totem for AC & pounce. Consider Invulnerable Rager.

Druid/Bloodrager -- Full BAB. You can Wild Shape (supernatural druid ability) and then rage (exotic bloodrager feature) and those do not block one another. Mad Magic lets you cast spells. Wild Shape gives you size-based str increases, and Rage gives you morale-based str bonuses, so those stack. And take Primalist to trade out sub-par bloodline features for barbarian feats (pounce!)

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

I summarize the Draconic bloodlines here. Feel free to incorporate this any way you like Gortle.

Draconic bloodline exemplars

PM me if you want editing rights.

Access Denied.

Others don't even have viewing rights?

Thanks. I missed that. Should be good now.

I summarize the Draconic bloodlines here. Feel free to incorporate this any way you like Gortle.

Draconic bloodline exemplars

PM me if you want editing rights.

I recommend a plain old witch with the Healing patron. Consider the Hedge Witch archetype to get spontaneous healing and condition removal.

You get full spell progression, good healing, a single casting stat, and all your hexes (or trade out 2 hexes with the Hedge Witch). If you want to buff your party consider: Protective Luck, Cackle, Soothsayer, and then Fortune.

Reasons why I dislike attributes:

1. They follow a tradition of bioessentialism that creates false boundaries around what defines characters. Measuring characteristics like intenlligence has a very troubling, racist history and is still very problematic today. I say this as a college writing instructor who understands that we have no tools to measure such things that are not based upon cultural values that favor in-culture members over others. The more we try to create a small number of “essential attributes” the more likely we ignore other ways to be smart or wise or strong or likeable.

2. They don’t even do what they say they do well. How often does the party only let the smartest character come up with the plan or strategy to solve a challenge? How often do parties even pretend like it was the smart character that came up with the plan? There are literally no game mechanics that actually represent character intelligence (outside of “magic”) as anything other than “how much data can your brain store”

3. There implementation is boring and getting more boring as people try to stick with them but address the problems above.

1. I only think that these abilities are bioessential if you want them to be. There's no nature vs nurture prescriptivism embedded in the ruleset, not that I'm aware of. You can have any of those mean whatever matches your character idea, you're just stuck with them affecting their various dice rolls. If anything, having int, wis & cha gets a bit closer (albeit artificially) to the idea that there is more than one kind of intelligence. I.e. not a simple linear high/low IQ continuum.

2. And yeah, there's a real break between what the players vs the characters contribute. Nothing in the rules requires that a player with a low charisma character shouldn't suggest social tactics.

I guess my perspective is that the rules are a framework, but we bring the meaning we want to our characters and campaigns.

Make of that what you will, it's just my take on things.

I just don't understand the concern around attributes. You have everything determined in advance, you maybe have a couple of buffs to add in before you roll. It seems so straight-foward and frankly simple to me.

Sure, I could make up a situation where 3 or 4 conditional buffs or debuffs apply, but those situations come up so rarely that I wouldn't design a system around them.

To me attributes are a way to say that this character has made choices that determine what they are better or worse at. And that commitment or investment is part of what defines the character.

I get it that when my character with a low charisma has a clever social idea, I don't have very good chance of pulling it off once dice are involved. But another character isn't strong enough to push that heavy door open. That's a diversity of options across different characters that I enjoy. I think that creates an interdependency among the party members.

So, why so much hate for attributes, even if hate may be too strong a word? :)

I've never played with the spheres of power rules, and I've never played nor even looked at those two 3rd party classes until now. So ... I can only say that it looks like:

Armorist-Collector: full BAB, good reflex & will saves, "low caster" (not sure what that means) that uses wisdom for casting.

Occultist-Reliquary Keeper: 2/3 caster, good fort & will saves, int-based casting (psychic casting isn't affected by armor, so yay)

So you have full BAB, all three good saves, and a 2/3 caster that can wear armor. That's all generally sound.

So then I'd look at what you plan to do in 3 or 4 rounds of combat. What abilities from each class will you use, and do they mesh well together or do they fight for your actions? And, how does that mesh with the rest of your party? I suspect you're on your own here, since few folks will have experience with spheres of power nor either of those classes.

Good luck.

I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but I'll call it out again. The thaumaturge has gotten some great stuff:

- The shield implement is new, gives you options for a more defensive frontline character.
- The wand was a bad choice as an implement, but was given a couple of buffs that make it a fine choice if you want to play a ranged thaumaturge.
- The chalice was improved a bit, making it a better choice too.
- An annoying "must" on the mirror was changed to a "may".

None of these made the thaumaturge a more powerful class, but they broadened the number of good choices available.

That is the key thing I would like to see Paizo bring. Read through the class guides that folks have poured dozens/hundreds of hours into and figure out what you can do to make those bad feats/subclasses/whatever strong enough to be attractive options. It's totally fine if a given feat only applies to a nautical campaign or a gnome or whatever. But try to make most of the options a reasonably attractive choice.

If I continue with the melee cleric idea and focus on buffing and healing spells, the 19 WIS shouldn't be a problem but I probably should ditch the Power Attack and maybe toughness for something else.

But then again, more casting oriented (or hinterlander) would probably be more impactful in the long run...

Thank you all for the replies, gave me some food for thought :)

If you go the casting route then give the Stargazer prestige class a look, it borders on too-good-to-be-true. You gain:

skills increase to 4+int
hp drops to d6 -- so this is not compatible with a melee combat role
a familiar
two witch hexes (the first at level 1!)
stars domain
two oracle revelations
a bunch of "sidereal arcana," all of which are rather nice.

Oh, and both your spell casting and domains advance with each stargazer level. It's nuts I tell you. But not if you want to be in melee.

I know you asked about a melee cleric, but I'll mention the cleric/hinterlander build. It's a solid archer as well as a full caster.

You take 5 levels of cleric, then switch over to hinterlander. You'll want to worship Erastil to get access to longbows, so you might as well be an elf.

The advantages of this build are:

- Hinterlander is a full BAB class, so you can actually hit things.
- You only lose 1 level of spell casting.
- With the feat Erastil's Blessing you can use your Wis modifier instead of Dex for archery.
- Since you're 13th level, you already have Imbue Arrow.
- If you can fit in the two feats: Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster, you get that level of cleric spell casting back.
- If you can't fit in those two feats, the trait Magical Knack will get you back the spell DC progression.

Cheers

Battle oracle aside would you consider a thaumaturge with all the scroll feats a caster? At max level it's one scroll of each level which is more than the 4 spells total a wave caster gets. I'm not going to crunch the numbers rn but I assume thaum reaches that 60% threshold or at least gets close.

I was going to suggest a scroll Thaumaturge, preferably with a free archetype sorcerer.

Battle oracle aside would you consider a thaumaturge with all the scroll feats a caster? At max level it's one scroll of each level which is more than the 4 spells total a wave caster gets. I'm not going to crunch the numbers rn but I assume thaum reaches that 60% threshold or at least gets close.

I was going to suggest a scroll Thaumaturge, preferably with a free archetype sorcerer.

The Thaumaturge rework was great, the wand is now a viable implement. I would love more of that. Revisit the bad/trap options for classes and give them a slight boost to make them viable choices.

I would also consider the slayer:

- Full BAB
- D10 HD & medium armor
- Studied target bonuses, as a swift action at 7th level
- Ranger & rogue feats without needing to meet their requirements(!)
- Lower sneak attack than a rogue
- Fewer skills than a rogue
- The unchained rogue gets debilitating injury at 4th, and of course a slayer does not

The best build here is strength-based, and that may not match your character vision.

Cheers

Thank you both. I decided on:

- Dominate Monster (will save)
- Rival's Weald (fort save)
- Summon Monster IX

I lean toward area effect spells and targeted hexes. But I'll make an exception for Dominate Monster.

Cheers

We are coming up on the end of War for the Crown and leveling up to 17th.

I can learn 3 spells (2 for the level, another FCB) and am seriously considering:

- Rival's Weald
- Communal Mind Blank
- Summon Monster IX

Others of interest include:

- Scribe's Binding
- Astral Projection
- Polar Midnight
- Dominate Monster
- Mass Hold Monster
- Teleportation Circle

If you've played at witch (or perhaps wizard/sorcerer -- only Rival's Weald is from the druid list) at this level, are there choices you've been particularly happy with?

The wall Once per round as a move action, you can direct the wall of lava to erupt. so it cannot be considered unattended.

I find that persuasive. Thanks one & all.

In a culminating boss fight of our campaign, the boss cast Wall of Lava.

Is there any reason my witch could not use Greater Object Possession to turn the wall on its maker? I don't see any limitation under the Object Possession spell description. I don't see any limitation under the spell Wall of Lava -- unless you wanted to argue that it is a spell rather than an object.

Under Wall of Lava it states,

"Once per round as a move action, you can direct the wall of lava to erupt."

"You can attempt to possess a construct instead of an unattended object as your first possession with this spell. If you do, this spell acts as control construct, except as noted above."

"If the construct’s creator or master is present and trying to control the construct, you both must make opposed Spellcraft checks each round to control the construct."

Ultimately this is of course all up to our GM. I'm just trying to pull together any known info to simplify things for him.

I want to pick out just a few more feats. Up to level 15. So I need 4 more since Magus gets a bonus at level 11.

I don't think I need any other metamagic feats and don't want any creation feats. So that leaves a combat feat for the bonus. Not sure what else to use though.

Extra hex, flight

Another sidetrack. If I play a gestalt game, it will be with a white-haired witch. Maybe fighter, maybe brawler, maybe magus.

White draconic sorcerer gives you +1/d6 damage.

Or winter oracle for the revelation:

Freezing Spells (Su): Whenever a creature fails a saving throw and takes cold damage from one of your spells, it is slowed (as the slow spell) for 1 round. Spells that do not allow saves do not slow creatures. At 11th level, the slow duration increases to 1d4 rounds.

Magus could be good, or alchemist would work too.

And the advantages of wizard are obvious, top level spells all day.

A full BAB class would make your touch-attack spells much better and round out your saves.

I looked at Tanagaar, and he is associated with sylphs. Their -2 con makes them a poor choice for a melee character, but a stormsoul sylph has +2 dex, +2 cha, and -2 wis. Since a tempered champion gives up spell casting the hit to wis isn't so very bad for you.

As several of you will remember, this took quite a bit of work. And it might actually be of some use here.

Casters Compared

It presents the strengths & weaknesses of the various classes. Sure it's unavoidably subjective, but the collective brain trust that went into this has hopefully resulting in broadly useful values.

In terms of a choice between a Sorcerer and an Arcanist, I do think that sheer number of spells looms large. A few representative levels:

5th level
Sorcerer: 4 2nd, 6 1st
Arcanist: 3 2nd, 4 1st

8th level
Sorcerer: 3 4th, 5 3rd
Arcanist: 2 4th, 4 3rd

13th level
Sorcerer: 4 6th, 6 5th
Arcanist: 3 6th, 4 5th

An arcanist has 70-75% of the top two spell levels to cast/day, compared with a sorcerer.

I suggest that you consider the type of campaigns that your group has. If you commonly have 3+ encounters/day then I'd recommend the sorcerer more highly. If you usually have 1 or 2 encounters/day then I think either one will work for you.

I think a sorcerer is a great first choice for a full caster. You chose solid, all-around spells that you can use every day and just let loose.

Human: you get the 1 additional spell known FCB.
Half-elf: you get the above FCB plus you can cast Paragon Surge.
Kitsune: magic tail, and your FCB gives +1/4 DC to enchantments

Bloodlines

Arcane: familiar or bonded object
Astral: quicken 1/day without increasing the spell level
etc.

Lots of good choices (and lots of poor choices...).

The Tempered Champion trades out spells for feats and increases the damage of the weapon like the warpriests sacred weapon.

Yeah, this is an old thread.

Anyway, if you're still around Illuzry, why doesn't the Tempered Champion get a mention? I just saw that archetype mentioned in another thread (fighting with daggers/kukri) and getting warpriest's sacred weapon damage dice on a full BAB character with bonus feats looks beastly.

Back when we ran through (most of) Wrath of the Righteous, one person played a Tempered Champion Paladin of Tanagaar for full BAB big damage dice Kukri fun.

That looks like an amazing build. I'd never come across the Tempered Champion.

If you go with the (excellent option of) warpriest, you might as well use kukri for their 18-20 crit range. You no longer care that they're 1d3 weapons. At 11th level you can take Improved Critical for a 15-20 crit range.

And if by luck you have a witch who takes the fortune hex then your crits skyrocket (one combat per day). Boring math below:

18-20 range means an 85% if not getting a crit. 85% * 85% = 72%, that is you have a 72% chance of *not* getting a crit on either roll, and hence a 28% chance of getting a crit.

15-20 means 70% * 70% = 49% chance of *not* getting a crit on either roll. That's right, 51% of the time you crit.

Cheers

You want Greater Possession, an 8th level spell.

From my own viewpoint, I'd eagerly and enthusiastically play probably the most non-optimal combinations of Sorcerer4/Shaman4 with a Mystic Theurge, and I'd still classify it as worth consideration.

...

The conclusion I've reached is that you simply cannot change some people's mind about certain options until you hand walk them through the journey of playing such a character so they get to experience it directly.

Cheers Deathless.

Yes, all of that I am aware of. I've never stated a Mystic Theurge is better than a single classed caster. Instead of arguing about why someone shouldn't take it, I am advising them on the best ways to do it. And how to go about staying relevant throughout your adventuring career while doing it.

Faith Magic is the only entry I think is worth serious consideration.

Wizard 7/Cleric 1/MT 10/Wizard 2

You only give up a level of wizard progress, which is tolerable. The down side is that your divine spells are quite a bit behind your arcane ones. But if you want to have Lesser Restoration on hand, it's not a terrible route.

I think your party is solid and will do just fine. If you don't change a thing you don't have any real worries.

If you replace the swashbuckler with a fighter I do think that the +2 to hit and reactive strike will be a noticeable improvement in combat. Basically, a swashbuckler and a thaumaturge need to spend actions to get in big hits. A fighter just hits stuff without any preparatory actions, and hits successfully more often, and they get in reactive strikes.

There's nothing wrong with that party.

Cleric -- healing & divine spells
Druid -- blasting, primal spells, maybe some combat
Monk -- mobility, good saves, reliable damage
Swash -- mobility, precision damage
Thaum -- utility (tome, regalia, whatever), single-target damage

Let's pick three solid classes that you don't have:

Fighter/Barbarian -- consistent high damage
Rogue -- precision damage & skills
Sorcerer -- control, blasting, etc

So then your options (as I imagine them) would be:

1. Swap in a fighter/barb for the monk or swash. I generally think this would be a win.

2. Swap in a rogue for the swash. This might be an improvement, depending on what skills the other party members have (including whether the thaum has a tome)

3. Swap in a sorc for the druid. I think this is mostly a wash.

Cheers

There are a bunch of two-in-one implements that are logically consistent. Any implement could also be regalia. You could have a tome with mirrored cover. A spiked shield could be both a shield and a weapon.

But those are all too-clever bits of rules lawyering that only a particularly accommodating DM would accept. The Thaumaturge is designed to require holding one implement in each hand.

In the topic at hand, I’d suggest a champion archetype for a Thaumaturge in a front-liner role. The combination of of lay-on-hands and shield reaction are great additions. Plus, you get access to heavy armor.

Let's consider a witch at 5th & 8th levels, respectively. We'll give her an int of 20.

Level 5
Uses area control spells, then targets individual opponents with hexes. Has the feat Accursed Hex so she can reuse Slumber when a target successfully saves. Falls back on Misfortune/Cackle for constructs/undead/etc who are immune to Slumber.
Feats: accursed hex
Hexes: slumber, misfortune, cackle
Spells
1st: enlarge person, keyhole, mage armor, sow thought
2nd: blindness, euphoric cloud, web
3rd: sleet storm, summon monster iii

Level 8
Buffs allies via Soothsayer/Protective Luck/Cackle at the start of day and after every encounter. Note that Protective Luck is one of the few hexes without a limitation of 1/day/target.
Hexes: protective luck, soothsayer, cackle, flight
Spells
1st: command, ears of the city, enlarge person, hermean potential, mage armor
2nd: detect thoughts, glitterdust, perceive cues, web
3rd: lightning bolt, summon monster iii, stinking cloud, thorny entanglement
4th: black tentacles, confusion, summon monster iv

I’ve been playing a witch from level 5-16 for the last while. I’ve never thought he didn’t hold his own. And intermittently he just wins an encounter with the right spell or hex. But I joined the campaign at level 5, so missed the first few levels when a caster is weakest.

hmmm, I'm gonna use a spoiler as it's more general Advice

Northern Spotted Owl and I run wizards a bit differently. There are many paths to success.
** spoiler omitted **

I don't disagree with a word of that.

From that list alone I’m feeling a strong caster expending a top level spell could consistently account for 1/4 to 1/2 of enemies neutralized in one round (or all in the right circumstance).

Do those estimates seem right?

What about for mid-level spells, reduce enemy effectiveness 1/4?

The mid-levels have fewer of these mass/area effect spells. Favorites of mine include: mass debilitating pain, mass suggestion, or mass mydriatic spontenaity. So the Heighten metamagic feat becomes more attractive. You also start to get some of the bleakest single target spells: baleful polymorph, suffocation, dominate person, feeblemind.

You also run into more Spell Resistance, so you need feats like Spell Penetration and eventually Greater Spell Penetration. If you're an int-based caster then a numerology cylinder helps there too.

I or one of my party members have won a combat with almost any one of these spells at some point. One of my favorite moments was when my witch cast Web into a hallway of opponents, and then followed that up with Vomit Swarm: Spiders.

Another favorite moment was when our wizard cast Summon Monster for a Giant Scorpion (which takes a full round), another party member opened the door into a room full of our opponents, my witch cast Sleet Storm, the wizard cast Spiked Pit, and we closed the door and wedged it shut.

So everyone in the room was blind, while the scorpion had tremorsense. Sure, that was three of our best spells on one encounter, but it was the capstone of a module. Between falling into the spiked pit while blindly trying to find the door, and the giant scorpion grabbing & poisoning them we were left with far few opponents.

Some of the best combat spells are area effects. I'll lean toward arcane spells, since I know them best.

2nd
create pit
euphoric cloud
glitterdust
web

3rd
fireball
sleet storm
spiked pit
stinking cloud

4th
black tentacles
confusion
fear
ice storm
wall of fire
wall of ice

To those add Haste and the Summon Monster spells.

I or one of my party members have won a combat with almost any one of these spells at some point. One of my favorite moments was when my witch cast Web into a hallway of opponents, and then followed that up with Vomit Swarm: Spiders.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

If a Cartomancer takes the prehensile hair hex they have hair with a strength matching their intelligence. If you throw your cards with your hair I would think you would get the corresponding str bonus to damage. You're only doing perhaps 10 damage, but I suppose that's better than 5.

"Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand."

No throwing cards with your eyebrows, unfortunately.

Parentheses getting everyone in the thread.

Well spotted

If a Cartomancer takes the prehensile hair hex they have hair with a strength matching their intelligence. If you throw your cards with your hair I would think you would get the corresponding str bonus to damage. You're only doing perhaps 10 damage, but I suppose that's better than 5.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

Swine (8th level or above) -- Not as powerful as Slumber, but no mind-affecting limitations.

Also no save. It just works.

It's pretty terrific, at least past 8th level. But there is a save, note the parenthetic "(Will negates)".

Swine hex

Swine (Su) (Heroes of Golarion pg. 15): The witch can partially transform an enemy into a pig. The effects of the transformation are mostly cosmetic and do not change the creature’s size category or overall shape, but the affected creature takes a –2 penalty on Will saving throws for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s Intelligence modifier (Will negates). At 8th level, the affected creature’s hands (or paws) turn into hooves, preventing it from using claw attacks or taking any action that would require the creature to use its fingers.

You should look at which hexes you really want. I think these are the best of them:

- slumber
- flight
- misfortune (constructs, undead, etc.)
- cackle, to support misfortune
- ice tomb

Alternately, the buff hex build is very strong:

- protective luck -- does not have the 1/day restriction
- soothsayer
- fortune

By 10th level you have 5 hexes as a Cartomancer.

For your first question, the Stargazer does not advance your *witch level* and so does not get you to a major hex. You will want 10 levels of actual witch.

The key feature of a Cartomancer is Deadly Dealer.

- You can deliver touch spells at a *ranged* touch attack
- At 2nd level you get Deadly Dealer: Your cards do 1d4 damage, as if they were a dart, with a bit of bonus damage from Arcane Strike

So you'll want to prioritize your dex score. Here are some particularly nice touch spells from the witch list.

1st: Frostbite, Touch of blindness
2nd: Touch of idiocy
3rd: Bestow curse, Excruciating deformity, Trial of fire & acid, Vampiric touch
4th: Fleshworm infestation
5th: Curse of unexpected death
6th: none
7th: Bestow Greater Curse, Harm, Plane shift
8th: Irresistible dance
9th: none

On your Stargazer familiar question, yes that's how I read that. Your Stargazer familiar would only scale with your Stargazer levels.

I've seen some builds that take 2 or 4 levels of white-haired witch.

One option isn't exclusively grapple focused, but stacks debuffs to include grappled.

Defiler: White-haired Witch 2 / Hexcrafter N

If you google "white-haired witch defiler" you'll find a fair bit of detail. It stacks grappled, tripped, fatigued (from spellstrike frostbite).

I'll run through a few items.

First, have you had a direct, non-confrontational conversation with them? That is, can you just tell them that combat is getting frustrating because their turns take so long. That it would really help everyone to enjoy combat more if they had planned their turn by the time it came around.

And, if they are using their phones primarily to browse instagram or whatever then I'd mention that. It's just selfish to disengage from the combat and then not know what's going on when your turn comes around. Obviously it would be inappropriate & confrontational to phrase it like that, but they need to hear that they're making their friend's play less enjoyable. And that message has to come from a place of genuine friendship.

After that I'd suggest that these players might want to use simpler classes. E.g. lean toward martial classes rather than casters.

They could also have 2 or 3 plans to fall back on for their turns. If 70-80% of the time they just chose from among three "standard turns" that might help.

You could also prime some of this organically. E.g. your warpriest calls out that they need the ranger's help with this ogre.

It's a touch spell with no save, but when/why would I do this versus my flaming sword attack? Against a high AC target maybe.

You have a good chance (touch attack) of doing modest damage (3d6 = 10.5) and occasionally getting a free intimidate. It's a pretty poor choice as far as I can tell.