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So I'm just getting around now to watching all the Twitch videos of the panels that were released during PaizoCon, and on the Pathfinder Remaster Panel,they covered a lot about the alchemist (such as a new renewable resource called versatile vials that can be renewed as an exploration activity or something?) However, the one question that wasn't answered in the chat is if Alchemists get up to master proficiency in attacks (simple weapons, throwing bombs, etc.) That seems to be the one thing everyone wants in order to bring alchemists in line with other 'near martials.' The members of the panel ended it by saying that they were going to be doing Q&As for the rest of the con. Anyone know if this was answered? Seems like they might do something about it, since war priests got up to master in weapon attacks.
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I think its semi-confirmed that they didn't change proficiencies but they don't want to say it right now because they know people are going to be upset if they don't see what (I assume) change makes that fix not needed anymore.
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As I recall the answer was essentially "We've changed how profiency works, but without additional context, it won't mean anything to you." So it's not just straight up master scaling.
Maybe their bombs can give up to a +5 item bonus? Or like a gunslinger, they get master proficiency only in a few things but not others?
I think its likely bombs use a class DC - 10 formula to attack with them, while mutagenists can receive higher bonuses from their mutagens.
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The exact answer was this:
James Case 「he/him」 — Today at 4:05 PM
No comment on proficiencies since enough has changed internally with the structure of the class that it likely won't be very contextualized. We do hope the remastered alchemist is both easier to grasp and has a more consistent playstyle at the table, though!
So literally no comment was made. People have been making presumptions about what that implies with the class, but those are exactly that: Presumptions. We'll likely won't know the full scope of the changes until a) Paizo hosts a stream or a blog post explaining all the changes in detail, or much more likely b) We see for ourselves when subscribers get their copies of Player Core 2 in mid-July.
Wait.
Versatile Vials will be short term renewable like Focus Spells?
Maybe Bombs are "Save vs Class DC" like I think how SF2 is doing grenades. Never really made sense as Martial Weapons exactly.
=)
Yes. Effectively, Alchemists now have 2 resource pools. One for Advanced Alchemy, and the Versatile Vials. VV can be restored via Exploration Mode akin to Focus Points, and can be used to make alchemical items like you could with Quick Alchemy, throw the vials like an acid bomb, or make unique items depending on your subclass.
Well, we already know that bombs still work based off of a strike, or else why even bother putting them in the GM core. But “Acid Bomb” is not an acid flask, and it is possible the versatile vials will work completely differently from other bombs and be tuned up from basic bombs enough to be the thing alchemists generally want to do first thing in combat. They could trigger off class DC and that would complicate things enough to not be worth explaining until people can read it all. Also, there is still the question of whether regular will still do splash damage on a miss.
Honestly it's unlikely that they use saves once that GM Core bombs still works as legacy (they just added the "Most bombs also have the splash trait" from Splash trait).
Since they said "We've changed how profiency works, but without additional context, it won't mean anything to you" I'm still unhyped once that this looks like an explanation to a bad news. It's looks like someone saying an excuse as "we don't exactly loose but you need additional context to understood". Maybe I'm just being excessively negative but the lack of mention to proficiency in panels and this evasive answer in discord break my hopes.
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As I recall the answer was essentially "We've changed how profiency works, but without additional context, it won't mean anything to you." So it's not just straight up master scaling.
No. Paizo didn't say proficiency changed in any way. They refused to comment on changes at all because enough other stuff had changed.
If there's no proficiency changes then versatile vials applying through class DC will still be as accurate as multiclassed casting or ranger/champion focus abilities which would be a bummer. If class DC is the fix then I'm hoping alchemist ends at legendary class DC.
Well, let's see...
My current L11 Bomber with Dex Based Strikes: Level 11 + 4 Expert + 4 Dexterity + 3 Quicksilver Mutagen Item Bonus = +22 for Bomb Strikes
(Class DC-10) at L11: 11 + 4 Expert + 5 Intelligence = 20
So basically, I'd need something like a Gate Attenuator when today all I need is Quicksilver, which I can make, for free, and gives me a lot of other bonuses besides.
I'm currently waiting for July wondering if Paizo has completely ruined a Class that I have really, really enjoyed playing for a combined 31 levels. We'll see. With any luck I'm being too pessimistic.
One thing that's occurred to me is that Mutagens could act as psuedo proficiency bumps instead of item bonus. Their current form already rewards dabblers more than specialists because item bonuses won't stack with permanent equipment. But Mutagens could act more like Follow the Expert or Illusory Disguise, providing a flat bonus to everyone and allowing you to apply your level to the roll if it isn't already. That + shuffling the drawbacks around would go a long way towards making mutagens widely desirable.
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There were Mutagens in Howl of the Wild which is a full Remaster Book. They're still item bonuses.
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Since they said "We've changed how profiency works, but without additional context, it won't mean anything to you" I'm still unhyped once that this looks like an explanation to a bad news. It's looks like someone saying an excuse as "we don't exactly loose but you need additional context to understood". Maybe I'm just being excessively negative but the lack of mention to proficiency in panels and this evasive answer in discord break my hopes.
I'm honestly very hyped by that. It tells me that they've really gone in and made some meaningful structural changes to this thing rather than just frobbed some numbers, and that tells me that the result is likely to be more interesting and fun overall, probably with a better balance between the types.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the alchemist got some sort of specific bonuses when using alchemical items, possibly tied to their research field.
The fact that bomb splash no longer works on a miss by default suggests pretty strongly that they'll be getting some sort of accuracy bump.
WWHsmackdown,
What do you mean?If Versatile Vial bombs apply through Class DC, how is that not an improvement?
=)
Just that alchemist only goes to master DC not the legendary DC baseline for applying conditions through spells/ spell like effects
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The fact that bomb splash no longer works on a miss by default suggests pretty strongly that they'll be getting some sort of accuracy bump.
This is, as yet, unclear. While Player Core has that explanation for Splash, GM Core maintains the version of Splash in use since Core Rulebook came out. So, another thing to look for in PC2: Which version of Splash does Paizo actually want everyone to use?
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My money is on neither the PC1 nor GMC definitions being correct once PC2 drops because both of them are insufficient to answer even half of the questions surrounding how it works.
I predict that they put out a completely overhauled Splash trait that, finally, has some real meat to is that dispels all of the questions and weirdness surrounding it, and at the same time, that version will be added as errata to PC1 and GMC.
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My guess: proficiency with armors and weapons didn’t change.
But now you can key your alchemical items to your Class DC probably through Versatile Vials!
I don't think people expected for alchemists to have martial weapons out of sudden, but people expected for alchemists to have martial scaling with their weapons or caster scaling with their DCs. Even if they didn't mention changes to proficiencies I expect to at least have caster scaling with class DCs, though I see their weapon proficiencies being slowed to caster progression too (expert at 11th level, doesns't scale further) but likely each research field will give bonuses to your specialization, acting like a sort of proficiency bump like Captain Morgan said.
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One concern I have is that if the upgrades are backended it'll hurt certain builds. Like if the changes just improve bombs and mutagens there's a risk weapon wielding alchemists get left behind and that'd be a shame.
Although part of me is curious if we'll get the secret "nothing really changed to fix the issue" solution instead. PC2 looks to be less conservative than PC1, but I still hope people don't overhype themselves too much on the off chance Paizo plays it safe.
I predict that they put out a completely overhauled Splash trait that, finally, has some real meat to is that dispels all of the questions and weirdness surrounding it, and at the same time, that version will be added as errata to PC1 and GMC.
Just like they did with 'instance of damage'?
One concern I have is that if the upgrades are backended it'll hurt certain builds. Like if the changes just improve bombs and mutagens there's a risk weapon wielding alchemists get left behind and that'd be a shame.
For weapon-using Alchs, it seems that no change would be the worst outcome, so I'm not super worried there.
The greater risk at the moment is that Quick Alchemy and its full book any time access is gone, replaced by the V Vials, and there is no reason to save reagents for use during the day.
While generally bad due in combat to the action cost, Quick Alchemy was the class' real source of amazing utility. The ability to leave a few reagents unspent so you could poof up an elixir to grant a climbing speed, translate any text, cleanse a lasting "day ender" condition like Stupefied, etc. That was the reason for Alchs to seek out formulas, for the "once in a campaign" moment where some instant-Sovereign Glue saved the day. That kind of thing cannot be prepped for ahead of time, you have to be able to create it on the spot.
Alchemist *needed* that use-case of Quick Alchemy for its utility, and there is good reason to think it has been completely removed with the change to Field-limited V-Vials.
Hell, I doubt that the Alchemist will get DC scaling or Additives for their prep items. I doubt Alchemist will even be allowed to brew up prep items throughout the day instead of being stuck needing to future-sight everything during daily prep. It's not spellcasing, and does NOT need to be stuck with that same restriction.
I have literally "paused" my party's exploration of the Abomination Vaults to backtrack to a lab so I could make a batch of Ghost Charges via the Quick Setup crafting Feat (because a 2hr craft time is compatible w/ an adventuring day). That kind of change-of-plans is outright impossible for the Alchemist by its features, and there is really no reason for it to be so restrictive.
It seems that NONE of the class' restrictions have been lifted. They appear to only have added a set of recharging pseudo-items that provide combat actions. In my opinion, that will do very little to help the Alchemist be fun to play. And while I absolutely do not trust Paizo to make the V Vial items genuinely potent, that's a separate concern from the Alchemist perhaps being MORE restricted than they were before with an (unconfirmed) rushed removal of Quick Alchemy.
PC2 is out in less than 8 weeks, so if they do those spotlight posts again they should probably start this week with the first one if they plan to cover all the classes. I believe they were released every week on wednesdays, so probably we have the first one tomorrow?
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I get being prepared to be disappointed with the alchemist. There's a risk of that whether you loved the current execution or hated it.
Champion is going to be seeing revisions, but I don't know why anyone would be nervous. They mostly just need to adjust for alignment going away, and they are already got a sweet mechanical and thematic buff in errata with sanctified strikes. As long as they tweak the errata feats to deal regular spirit damage, they could change little else and be fine because they were already fine.
But what the heck band-aid are you expecting to need ripping off on the sorcerer? Sorcerers are great and they mostly just need the new dragons swapped in on the one bloodline.
My sole potential cause of disappointment regarding the Alchemist would be Paizo changing the class in a way that prevent my builds to still work (or make them uselessly complicated). Unfortunately, it doesn't ask for much considering how Alchemist's builds are fragile. The release of Treasure Vault killed one of my Alchemist (it was already not in a great state, TV was the last nail in the coffin). So I'd actually prefer few changes over many.
How TV killed one of your builds giving it more options?
But in general I agree. For example one of my afraid is that versatile vials if was give in a small number (because theoretically you can recover it in exploration mode like a focus point) could break some mid to high level builds that's based in the high number of infused reagents that you have to use quick alchemy with frequency in a long encounter (more than 3 rounds) or that they change/remove perpetual infusions as compensation in a way that turn it impracticable to use things like Skunk Bomb. Yet the PC1 changes didn't made changes that break builds so I honestly don't expect that the new changes could break builds at all (I hope).
How TV killed one of your builds giving it more options?
Before TV, the only viable Alchemist was a complete jack of all trades using absolutely everything the class gives to try to get an edge.
TV released a bunch of very strong options that became the basis of more specialized Alchemist builds.So after TV, the generalist Alchemist was still playable but it was not state of the art and was still extremely complicated. Overall, too much hassle for a non-existent gain. As my first Alchemist was not really stellar in effectiveness (I based her strongly on bombs and bombs were just below par in a way that makes them a slight but constant disappointment) I decided to stop playing her and focused on my other Alchemists which were clearly showing excellent results.
How TV killed one of your builds giving it more options?Before TV, the only viable Alchemist was a complete jack of all trades using absolutely everything the class gives to try to get an edge.
TV released a bunch of very strong options that became the basis of more specialized Alchemist builds.So after TV, the generalist Alchemist was still playable but it was not state of the art and was still extremely complicated. Overall, too much hassle for a non-existent gain. As my first Alchemist was not really stellar in effectiveness (I based her strongly on bombs and bombs were just below par in a way that makes them a slight but constant disappointment) I decided to stop playing her and focused on my other Alchemists which were clearly showing excellent results.
Having to use everything to get an "edge" was the most contentious part of the class. The class with the highest versatility pays the highest tax. If the scales have been reversed in this regard and the alchemist "spell" versatility is purely prepared with supplemental quasi focus mechanics as opposed to a possibly full items list worth of moment to moment versatility (if theyve gotten the formulas) then we could be in for a major overhaul
A really wild solution would be if they took some of the mechanics created for the Starfinder 2e Soldier and made it part of the Alchemists' chassis. Basically, you get the option to use grenades as area weapons, forcing enemies to roll a save.
I don't think it is very likely, but it would be interesting and would make the class a little more unique.
It's worth mentioning that we will be getting the versatile vials change on Investigator too, meaning they'll have all-day access to alchemy for (presumably) elixirs and tools, plus probably the basic acid vial "bomb" usage, all with martial progression. It doesn't solve the poisoner build without a change, but it does set a minimum for Hyde builds.
I wonder if versatile vials will be available for archetype too. This potentially could make the Alchemist archetype even more stronger than it currently is.
This could make my bomber Investigator + Alchemist archetype pretty more sustainable.
I wonder if versatile vials will be available for archetype too. This potentially could make the Alchemist archetype even more stronger than it currently is.
This could make my bomber Investigator + Alchemist archetype pretty more sustainable.
Looking at the current archetype, you only get daily prep to start, and there's a feat for quick alchemy. I'm guessing that the quick alchemy feat will instead do something like give a versatile vial or two, which would be an improvement for me with how much the archetype leans towards daily prep as it is now.
Champion -> The champion suffers from a different issue. It just is sort of bland and non-exciting. I can literally skip L2-L8 feats and push them to archetypes before I get to a feat level I actually wouldn't want to skip. Its often the class I recommend in a non-FA game if you wanted a martial base but want to heavily invest in some archetype (e.g., the new ostilli/sukri archetype from HoTW to give yourself a Class DC based ranged attack). The other comment I've seen a lot historically is a call for a more general knight/neutral type version or allowing people to more freely take other causes without all the baggage of being 'evil' (i.e., your just a selfish defensive knight instead of a supporting one). Other expressions of the concept like a summer/winter fey knight, etc. could be finally enabled with the loss of alignment. If I was a betting man I don't think Paizo was that bold, but we will see.
Wow. That's... I admit that their lvl 2 is a bit weak, but by the time you get to lvl 8, I've got multiple feats from previous levels that are fighting for space with the too many feats that I want at the level I'm at. I mean, maybe if I didn't want to do the full-on shielded paladin protector of awesomeness that wouldn't be as true, but I really do.
The reason Champion needed the rebuild is that the alignment changes cut into it especially deeply, to the point that it needed to be rebuilt.
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This is a weird stance to take.
Yep and it has a name: Power creep. It's a real thing that invalidates old builds despite the fact that they haven't changed.
So, to rephrase it, the power creep brought by Treasure Vault lead me to abandon one of my Alchemist.I'm sure any existing alchemical encyclopedia knowledge folks retain will enable you to to do fun corner case mechanic exploitation even on the new chassis.
I'm sure about that. Still my sentence holds true: "My sole potential cause of disappointment regarding the Alchemist would be Paizo changing the class in a way that prevents my builds to still work (or make them uselessly complicated)."
Or are you trying to convince me otherwise? Because that would be really weird (and doomed to fail).
So it looks like these changes to Alchemist are rather locked in:
the loss Quick Alchemy (and perpetual infusions)
the addition of V Vials
bomb splash only affects normal AoE on hit or better:
-- Bomb splash reasoning: there is 0 way to "accidentally" write a new mechanic like "on miss, only splash your primary target" into the game. This was an intentional change. The *only* remote chance it's not happening would require Paizo to have once intended the change to happen and put it into the remaster, then changed their mind but failed to remove it. Extremely remote chance.
poison damage being reduced
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The quite likely changes:
reduction of infused reagents and or A-Alch's conversion rate (such as loosing "specialty items") to compensate for the V Vials
Unspecified changes to Research Fields
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Throw those changes in with no proficiency improvements, and it is honestly very easy to see why players may think this is overall a nerf.
These improvements depend upon the V Vials providing more value than what was lost. And Quick Alch is a lot to loose.
Even if V Vials are 3 "Alchemy-thing" actions per fight, that is already a bad deal for the Alchs that went for the Expanded Splash + Debilitating + Perpetual Bomb build.
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As someone who has mostly played Chirugeons, I'm loosing out on the ability to keep a list of medicines in my book, and using Q-Alch to clear them after a fight. I have tried to take inf Skunks at 8, but it honestly does not work as well as one might think. Kind of still worth the Feat for the option, but I really don't throw them that often.
And I worry about how badly loosing Q-Alch will harm my PCs. It's not just medicines, but the ability to flexibly "under-budget" my daily needs and use the pool of reagents to Q-Alch the remainder. The main example there are the mutagens, as when the party is able to initiate a fight, I can pause, take stock of the situation, and offer a Q-Alch mutagen before the door kick.
Especially for variable items like Energy Mutagen, that Q-Alch is very important.
Energy Mutagens give resistance to 1 element, and weakness to 3. That's decided upon item creation, meaning that prepping such mutagens blind is super dangerous. On the flip-side, Resistance 10 is potent enough to make it a rare alch item worth the 2(or 3) Action cost to Make + Feed in the middle of combat, **in reaction to** seeing a lot of energy damage coming at you.
Without Quick Alchemy, my Chiurgeons will become much more one dimensional, prepping generically fine items like Numbing + Soothing Tonics instead of ever risking the potentially more helpful energy resistance.
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This is a weird stance to take.Yep and it has a name: Power creep. It's a real thing that invalidates old builds despite the fact that they haven't changed.
So, to rephrase it, the power creep brought by Treasure Vault lead me to abandon one of my Alchemist.
Power Creep only matters in the context of the game as a whole. Treasure Vault giving the Alchemist good enough support that struggling through your bad build no longer felt worth it isn't power creep.
Power Creep only matters in the context of the game as a whole. Treasure Vault giving the Alchemist good enough support that struggling through your bad build no longer felt worth it isn't power creep.
Yes, it's a form of power creep. The new options are better than the old ones so playing the old ones feel worse than before. Even if in my case it was just a nail in the coffin, I was dissatisfied with my build already.
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So it looks like these changes to Alchemist are rather locked in:
the loss Quick Alchemy (and perpetual infusions)
the addition of V Vials
bomb splash only affects normal AoE on hit or better:
-- Bomb splash reasoning: there is 0 way to "accidentally" write a new mechanic like "on miss, only splash your primary target" into the game. This was an intentional change. The *only* remote chance it's not happening would require Paizo to have once intended the change to happen and put it into the remaster, then changed their mind but failed to remove it. Extremely remote chance.poison damage being reduced
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The quite likely changes:
reduction of infused reagents and or A-Alch's conversion rate (such as loosing "specialty items") to compensate for the V Vials
Unspecified changes to Research Fields
-------------
Throw those changes in with no proficiency improvements, and it is honestly very easy to see why players may think this is overall a nerf.
These improvements depend upon the V Vials providing more value than what was lost. And Quick Alch is a lot to loose.
Even if V Vials are 3 "Alchemy-thing" actions per fight, that is already a bad deal for the Alchs that went for the Expanded Splash + Debilitating + Perpetual Bomb build.
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As someone who has mostly played Chirugeons, I'm loosing out on the ability to keep a list of medicines in my book, and using Q-Alch to clear them after a fight. I have tried to take inf Skunks at 8, but it honestly does not work as well as one might think. Kind of still worth the Feat for the option, but I really don't throw them that often.
And I worry about how badly loosing Q-Alch will harm my PCs. It's not just medicines, but the ability to flexibly "under-budget" my daily needs and use the pool of reagents to Q-Alch the remainder. The main example there are the mutagens, as when the party is able to initiate a fight, I can pause, take stock of the situation, and offer a Q-Alch mutagen before...
Did... did you miss the fact that Versatile Vials will still let you make alchemical items on the fly? 'Cause the designers did say that. They were vague, but it doesn't sound like the replacement of Quick Alchemy with Versatile Vials will lead to you losing your ability to make those items as you need them. In fact, being able to make items on the fly and then get those resources back during Exploration Mode sounds like an overall buff VS splitting up your reagents at the start of the day as we did before.
We just don't know how versatile those vials actually are. It seems to good to be true if any alchemist can whip up any formula in their book as one action (like Quick Alchemy allowed for) AND use a renewable resource to do it. I'd love for it to be true, but that's really good. Like, past a certain point you could skip buying an awful lot of permanent items through a never ending supply of eagle eye elixirs, cheetah elixirs, and mutagens.
I think people who currently like the overly complex version of the class are right to be concerned, even if the new version has a higher floor and is more accessible to new players.
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The (relative) silence and lack of wide playtesting on what sound like large changes to a class that a large part of the player base perceive have issues is not comforting.
Changes to splash and bombs without corresponding accuracy/DC boost sounds like a bad trade.
Alchs work ok as a 5th/6th/7th member of a party but even then there are feats (prescient planner) or just good prep that make their 'versatility' a crutch for lazy parties. I am dubious about a class whose primary value is as a walking emergency shop of consumables.
I loved PF1e alchemist. A lot of flavourful and cool options that seem to have gotten lost in the conversation to PF2e by making it a walking vending machine.
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The (relative) silence and lack of wide playtesting on what sound like large changes to a class that a large part of the player base perceive have issues is not comforting.
You realize this applies to all Remastered classes right ?
I do not think players of Witch, Rogue and Cleric have been disappointed by PC1.