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Haven't seen much talk of any barbarian changes. I heard rage is getting buffed in some way. I'd like to see a change to the balance of the animal unarmed attack choices. What else is likely to change or that you'd like to see?
Some clarification/errata to Superstition to make it easier on a PC.
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A smoother ride at low levels would be nice.
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I'm Hoping the changes to Dragons, means we get a dragon instinct that is reflective of it. An Empyreal Dragon Barbarian sounds like it could be a lot of fun to roleplay. Could also maybe provide a sort of divine striker itch.
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I'm Hoping the changes to Dragons, means we get a dragon instinct that is reflective of it. An Empyreal Dragon Barbarian sounds like it could be a lot of fun to roleplay. Could also maybe provide a sort of divine striker itch.
Could be. But anyway, the Exemplar definitely fills the divine striker role IMO.
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I'm Hoping the changes to Dragons, means we get a dragon instinct that is reflective of it. An Empyreal Dragon Barbarian sounds like it could be a lot of fun to roleplay. Could also maybe provide a sort of divine striker itch.Could be. But anyway, the Exemplar definitely fills the divine striker role IMO.
I forgot about them for a moment, oh well it's always nice to have more than one flavour of a thing.
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Haven't seen much talk of any barbarian changes. I heard rage is getting buffed in some way. I'd like to see a change to the balance of the animal unarmed attack choices. What else is likely to change or that you'd like to see?
IMO the Barbarian is one of the most well made classes. It's strong but not edging the OP and have a pretty consistent chassis and feats. Probably it only will get minor tweaks and change the dragon list of dragon instinct.
Haven't seen much talk of any barbarian changes. I heard rage is getting buffed in some way. I'd like to see a change to the balance of the animal unarmed attack choices. What else is likely to change or that you'd like to see?Some clarification/errata to Superstition to make it easier on a PC.
Honestly. IMO they can simply remove it like they did with Eldritch Trickster racket. The elemental barbarian show that are infinite possibilities to make more instincts overtime. We don't need an instinct that is so bad to use.
Also I wish Second Wind was less of a feat tax at low level, useless from mid-level.
Second Wind was developed to work as a garante if your encounter is longer than 1 minute. I think it have it's space to those who don't want to risk become without rage due a long encounter or 2 sequential encounters. It's OK IMO.
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Haven't seen much talk of any barbarian changes. I heard rage is getting buffed in some way. I'd like to see a change to the balance of the animal unarmed attack choices. What else is likely to change or that you'd like to see?IMO the Barbarian is one of the most well made classes. It's strong but not edging the OP and have a pretty consistent chassis and feats. Probably it only will get minor tweaks and change the dragon list of dragon instinct.
Haven't seen much talk of any barbarian changes. I heard rage is getting buffed in some way. I'd like to see a change to the balance of the animal unarmed attack choices. What else is likely to change or that you'd like to see?Some clarification/errata to Superstition to make it easier on a PC.Honestly. IMO they can simply remove it like they did with Eldritch Trickster racket. The elemental barbarian show that are infinite possibilities to make more instincts overtime. We don't need an instinct that is so bad to use.
Also I wish Second Wind was less of a feat tax at low level, useless from mid-level.Second Wind was developed to work as a garante if your encounter is longer than 1 minute. I think it have it's space to those who don't want to risk become without rage due a long encounter or 2 sequential encounters. It's OK IMO.
Eldritch Trickster as a concept is easy to replace. I feel Superstition Barbarian is pretty unique, and thematic too. I just want the endless debate /joke about a Bard and a Superstition Barbarian in a party to end once and for all.
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Honestly. IMO they can simply remove it like they did with Eldritch Trickster racket. The elemental barbarian show that are infinite possibilities to make more instincts overtime. We don't need an instinct that is so bad to use.
Why this hate?
You can easily make an Eldritch Trickster without the Rogue Racket. But there's no way you can make a Superstition Barbarian without the Instinct. So, no, definitely not, this Instinct should stay. And it covers a concept (anti-magic martial) that is not covered otherwise.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not a hate. I'm just in a "we don't really need this at all" mode. Due how many options and possibilities that we have I just don't care if they fix the Superstition or not. Yet today is almost a waste space in the APG becoming more an option to those who want to make a barbarian with allergy to magic for fun than a real good option.
So if they just throw this away I really won't care.
IMO this instinct could make some sense if it works thematically different like an Asta from Black Clover, and it absorves and negates magic in some rate as trade of some more inner power. But currently is just a "get this magic away from me. I don't like magic! If your magic will affect me I will stop to be your friend or I will lose my rage powers". It's just meh!
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Mechanically, there are issues with the Superstition Instinct. Thematically, it's pretty unique.
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Mechanically, there are issues with the Superstition Instinct. Thematically, it's pretty unique.
I would instead say that there are party issues with the Superstition Instinct, that require the GM to reinterpret their anathema. Yes I want it to be fixed and to stay.
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My biggest wish is for Cleave to be a reasonable option that people will take. At the moment only newbies do and they always regret it.
My biggest wish is for Cleave to be a reasonable option that people will take. At the moment only newbies do and they always regret it.
i wouldn't mind it if they reimagined cleave all together.
It is supposed to be an reaction that helps a martial do better at dealing with grouped up foes.Right now its conceptualized as you swing through one foe taking them out them and follow through into an adjacent foe. This concept is a bit limiting and applying map limits it further in ways reactive strike doesnt have to worry about for the same use of your reaction for the turn.
But how would it be conceptualized to give the sense its going for in a way that puts in on par with other reactions at its level?
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I feel like the biggest problems with the barbarian are in how uneven its subclasses can feel... which is somewhat bad news because PC1 mostly ignored subclass variance.
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My biggest wish is for Cleave to be a reasonable option that people will take. At the moment only newbies do and they always regret it.i wouldn't mind it if they reimagined cleave all together.
It is supposed to be an reaction that helps a martial do better at dealing with grouped up foes.
Right now its conceptualized as you swing through one foe taking them out them and follow through into an adjacent foe. This concept is a bit limiting and applying map limits it further in ways reactive strike doesnt have to worry about for the same use of your reaction for the turn.But how would it be conceptualized to give the sense its going for in a way that puts in on par with other reactions at its level?
Simply have it ignore and not contribute to MAP. (Or perhaps fix a small specific penalty to it if you must). If it gives you a free MAP less attack 1 in 2 or 3 rounds then it is somewhat comparable to Reactive Strike. Which the Fighter got for free.
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What has actually been said about player core 2 classes? I haven't heard a single preview for them.
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What has actually been said about player core 2 classes? I haven't heard a single preview for them.
Not much, but Monster Core isn't even out for another week. I'd expect any significant class details to be something we get after their other big remaster book is out at the earliest.
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Could also maybe provide a sort of divine striker itch.
Now I want to make a Roberto Baggio character.
What has actually been said about player core 2 classes? I haven't heard a single preview for them.Not much, but Monster Core isn't even out for another week. I'd expect any significant class details to be something we get after their other big remaster book is out at the earliest.
That's about what I figured. I don't know what rumor the OP heard about rage getting buffed but I don't think its founded in anything.
IIRC, we were told what classes were getting big overhauls and barbarian wasn't one of them. (I want to say oracle, champion, and alchemist were named but I feel like only 2 of the 3 are right.)
As mentioned, dragon instinct will almost certainly see minor tweaks to follow the model of the new dragons. I also think there's cool design space for a holy/unholy barbarian. Could be a new "zealotry instinct" or could be part of taking the dragon instinct for dragon or diabolic. A holy berserker is a pretty cool concept, though sanctified strikes might eat into champion and exemplar territory too much.
I agree with Cap.
I'm repeating myself but I expect way more changes in APG classes + alchemist than in the rest of CRB classes.
Champion we get some sneak peak in current Remaster Compatibility errata where its changes are adjustments due the alignment removal.
Sorcerer I only expect changes in their Bloodline lists related to dragons and the add of metal and wood elements to Elemental Bloodline.
Barbarian I expect a similar thing for its draconic instinct and maybe changes/removal of Superstition.
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maybe changes/removal of Superinstinct.
Super Instinct [Unique]
While raging, you can increase the additional damage from Rage from 2 to 20 and change its damage type to maths.
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I feel like the biggest problems with the barbarian are in how uneven its subclasses can feel... which is somewhat bad news because PC1 mostly ignored subclass variance.
True, but at least the class to class balance feels better. I'll gladly take one swashbuckler style that's worth playing, for example. And I'd love if oracle feats got the same love cleric feats received.
maybe changes/removal of Superinstinct.Super Instinct [Unique]
While raging, you can increase the additional damage from Rage from 2 to 20 and change its damage type to maths.
kkkkkk
Sorry it's Superstition! kkkk
The classes mentioned as being revised in PC2 are champion, oracle and alchemist. You might want to curb your expectations for everything else.
That being said, PC1 only mentioned the witch as being revised, while the cleric got (at least) as big of an upgrade and wizard was - for better or worse - changed quite dramatically. So there is definitely room for changes/improvements to other classes as well.
I agree with Cap.
I'm repeating myself but I expect way more changes in APG classes + alchemist than in the rest of CRB classes.
Champion we get some sneak peak in current Remaster Compatibility errata where its changes are adjustments due the alignment removal.
Sorcerer I only expect changes in their Bloodline lists related to dragons and the add of metal and wood elements to Elemental Bloodline.
Barbarian I expect a similar thing for its draconic instinct and maybe changes/removal of Superstition.
I would like to see the Elemental bloodline for air to have the break down to include lighting or air
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Maybe we get something like this. Elemental barbarian got different energy damage type for different elements. Maybe they revise this for sorcerer too.
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I've said my piece before, to some controversy:
- I hate the -AC penalty in Rage. I don't think it serves any real purpose and you become an HP piñata early on. Very counter-intuitive for new players. I get it that very experienced folks rage when lower in HP, but I want to allow my players to play intuitively out of the box... this was the same problem that +CON had with the 1E Chained Barb.
- I think they should smoothen Fury Instinct to be comparable to the others. No reason why roleplaying railroads should give you power. I think we've left that design principle by the wayside.
- I honestly believe the class / playerbase is disserviced by forcing Edicts on them as Barbarians. Less roleplaying railroads, please.
- I think that things like Cleave should be General Feats, and Class Feats saved for things that really really tie to your class. Why can't any class Cleave? I want my Barbarian feats to be very unique to what my class does.
I don't expect everyone to see eye-to-eye with me, but I do think these changes would be closer to the PF2E ethos than what we have right now.
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I've said my piece before, to some controversy:
- I hate the -AC penalty in Rage. I don't think it serves any real purpose and you become an HP piñata early on. Very counter-intuitive for new players. I get it that very experienced folks rage when lower in HP, but I want to allow my players to play intuitively out of the box... this was the same problem that +CON had with the 1E Chained Barb.
- I think they should smoothen Fury Instinct to be comparable to the others. No reason why roleplaying railroads should give you power. I think we've left that design principle by the wayside.
- I honestly believe the class / playerbase is disserviced by forcing Edicts on them as Barbarians. Less roleplaying railroads, please.
- I think that things like Cleave should be General Feats, and Class Feats saved for things that really really tie to your class. Why can't any class Cleave? I want my Barbarian feats to be very unique to what my class does.
I don't expect everyone to see eye-to-eye with me, but I do think these changes would be closer to the PF2E ethos than what we have right now.
Personally, I'd see them go through opposite way on the AC penalty and lean into getting hit, but give the class some kind of incentive in taking hits from level 1, like Vengeful Strike.
As to Cleave... While I think you're hitting on a very real problem in the class feat bottleneck, I think Player Core 1 showed us that ain't changing. The fighter and selection of general feats in that book just don't jive with that direction. I imagine other classes will get Cleave through archetypes, just like they do now.
But none of these changes are gonna happen, to be honest.
I've said my piece before, to some controversy:
- I hate the -AC penalty in Rage. I don't think it serves any real purpose and you become an HP piñata early on. Very counter-intuitive for new players. I get it that very experienced folks rage when lower in HP, but I want to allow my players to play intuitively out of the box... this was the same problem that +CON had with the 1E Chained Barb.
It's a conceptual heritage from 3.x/PF1 of what the barbarian is. It was made to represent the reckless of the barbarians that in rage reckless advance to kill its enemies. Honestly conceptually makes way more sense then the current Barbarian concept of 5e thats basically a tank with a lot of HP and resistance.
I have nothing against this design choice. I only think that this penalty could have a type instead of be untyped to avoid become too cumulative.
- I think they should smoothen Fury Instinct to be comparable to the others. No reason why roleplaying railroads should give you power. I think we've left that design principle by the wayside.
In fact I forgot about this. But I agree Fury Instinct needs more love. Currently is an anathemaless instinct that is way more weak in middle of many other instincts that usually no one really cares about their anathemas (with exception of Superstition and Spirit). It deservers at last some more good feats.
- I honestly believe the class / playerbase is disserviced by forcing Edicts on them as Barbarians. Less roleplaying railroads, please.
It's very unlikely that the designers remove the barbarian's anathemas/edicts. Specially now that they removed the alignment the anathemas becomes way more important part of the system.
- I think that things like Cleave should be General Feats, and Class Feats saved for things that really really tie to your class. Why can't any class Cleave? I want my Barbarian feats to be very unique to what my class does.
It was a design choice to restrict some abilities to some classes. Many general feats from 3.x/PF1 became specific class feats. Cleave is just one of them. Honestly up to day I still surprised that Shield Block can be get via general feat for every class once the almost every other active fight feat are class feats.
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I've said my piece before, to some controversy:
- I hate the -AC penalty in Rage. I don't think it serves any real purpose and you become an HP piñata early on. Very counter-intuitive for new players. I get it that very experienced folks rage when lower in HP, but I want to allow my players to play intuitively out of the box... this was the same problem that +CON had with the 1E Chained Barb.
A penalty is counter intuitive?
I like disadvantages on classes. It makes them unique.I don't want a game so simple that Rage is looked on as difficult.
- I think they should smoothen Fury Instinct to be comparable to the others. No reason why roleplaying railroads should give you power. I think we've left that design principle by the wayside.
Fury definitely needs work.
- I honestly believe the class / playerbase is disserviced by forcing Edicts on them as Barbarians. Less roleplaying railroads, please.
As it is written it is too tight and crippling on the party. So it needs to change. I'm OK with some codes though.
- I think that things like Cleave should be General Feats, and Class Feats saved for things that really really tie to your class. Why can't any class Cleave? I want my Barbarian feats to be very unique to what my class does.
I see it as something that suits the berserker mentality. So happy to have it be Barbarian only. It would be nice if there was a few more things like this in the class aside from rage. The main problem is it is non functional as written. But other classes might like it. EG a Flurry Ranger might actually like the feat as an extra attack is much more useful to them - as opposed to Barbarians who lose features with agile weapons.
Very counter-intuitive for new players.
What exactly does this mean?
The barbarian is generally considered a fairly straight forward class, I've never seen a new player particularly struggle to figure it out... and when they've had trouble it's never been because of rage's AC penalty, which is fairly straight forward.
IDK if I was going to simplify anything out of rage, maybe the duration. 10 rounds is too long to matter most of the time but can be really awkward on the rare occasion it does.
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Very counter-intuitive for new players.What exactly does this mean?
The barbarian is generally considered a fairly straight forward class, I've never seen a new player particularly struggle to figure it out... and when they've had trouble it's never been because of rage's AC penalty, which is fairly straight forward.
IDK if I was going to simplify anything out of rage, maybe the duration. 10 rounds is too long to matter most of the time but can be really awkward on the rare occasion it does.
I think what they are saying is that a barbarian should not rage then run headlong into battle.
I mean its kind of tropelike for a barbarian to do that but in this game no one should do it.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The only thing I've heard about Barbarians for the Remaster is 2 things. 1, Barbarians being in PC2 was partially decided due to the changes to dragons, and so they needed to be delayed until Monster Core is out.
2, Luis Loza said this on Discord back in January:
Rage is going to be better.
No details on how it'll be better, of course. But that has been said.
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Well the problem with the barbarian not raging is they are mechanically required to by their class. Or they have no abilities.
Which brings us back to the point that the class should be called Berserker. Just so we can have non raging barbarians.
Typically I don't even bother to count rounds up to ten. I guess or trust a player if it is relevant.
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2, Luis Loza said this on Discord back in January:Rage is going to be better.No details on how it'll be better, of course. But that has been said.
My guess is the no concentrate limit being changed.
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Haven't seen much talk of any barbarian changes. I heard rage is getting buffed in some way. I'd like to see a change to the balance of the animal unarmed attack choices. What else is likely to change or that you'd like to see?
I'd like to see the barbarian's 1st level feat selection improved. It doesn't have to be much, as there are some strong ideas there that could stand to be a bit less situational.
It's a cascading problem, see. Fury instinct isn't good because the suite of 1st level class feats isn't good. Fighter tends to outshine the barb at low levels primarily due to a lack of great feats. The high flat damage vs. high accuracy dynamic between the two classes has them about on par while feeling different, but once you throw feats into the mix the barb feels lacking.
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Very counter-intuitive for new players.What exactly does this mean?
The barbarian is generally considered a fairly straight forward class, I've never seen a new player particularly struggle to figure it out... and when they've had trouble it's never been because of rage's AC penalty, which is fairly straight forward.
IDK if I was going to simplify anything out of rage, maybe the duration. 10 rounds is too long to matter most of the time but can be really awkward on the rare occasion it does.
I think what they are saying is that a barbarian should not rage then run headlong into battle.
I mean its kind of tropelike for a barbarian to do that but in this game no one should do it.
I mean if they don't want to rage it kind of sounds like the class isn't for them?
Well the problem with the barbarian not raging is they are mechanically required to by their class.
How much of a problem is that? Like, rogues don't work well if they can't sneak attack and rangers are expected to hunt things or they don't have much in the way of features.
"Barbarian who never rages" feels like a fairly esoteric concept and kind of beyond the scope of "how easy is it for a new player to figure this out"
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Barbarian is rough if you get anything that kills rage. That is definitely true. I was face planted the other day with my barbarian and I could not rage for the rest of the battle. I was a weak fighter.
Well, if we know rage I'd getting an upgrade... I wouldn't guess it is from the AC penalty for two reasons.
1. The temp HP, DR, and uncanny dodge all feel like patches to the lowered AC, and getting rid of all just feels boring.
2. 5e barbarians don't have the AC penalty anymore. I'm not sure if that protects a feature which originated in 3.5, but it can't hurt.
I'm also guessing the ceiling for rage damage isn't increasing, though individual instincts might. Peak barbarian damage is pretty good, even compared to the fighter.
What I'd bet on is rage becomes easier to use, like losing the cool down period that screws you if you are knocked out and healed back up, or maybe an action compressor like Mighty Rage coming online sooner.
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My guess/hope is that the improved Rage integrates some feats as part of the class chassis, i.e. Fast Movement. As in Rage improves consistently throughout one's career with physical buffing so while the Fighter remains better at generic fighting/weapons/styles, the Barbarian gets a nudge in those aspects it already kind of owns thematically, yet isn't at the top of the curve like some of the other martials are in their niches.
My guess/hope is that the improved Rage integrates some feats as part of the class chassis, i.e. Fast Movement. As in Rage improves consistently throughout one's career with physical buffing so while the Fighter remains better at generic fighting/weapons/styles, the Barbarian gets a nudge in those aspects it already kind of owns thematically, yet isn't at the top of the curve like some of the other martials are in their niches.
That seems unlikely too. Have we seen any meaningful changes to class chassis beyond 1st level?
I also think that specific example bleeds into monk territory a bit too much. Mobility is also a part of the class budget which the community values less than Paizo does, so it doesn't seem like a very popular buff. If they were going make more feats into features (which I personally am into) I'd guess/hope that it is more of the instinct specific stuff.
My guess is the no concentrate limit being changed.
2, Luis Loza said this on Discord back in January:Rage is going to be better.No details on how it'll be better, of course. But that has been said.
The dream come true
Well, if we know rage I'd getting an upgrade... I wouldn't guess it is from the AC penalty for two reasons.
1. The temp HP, DR, and uncanny dodge all feel like patches to the lowered AC, and getting rid of all just feels boring.
2. 5e barbarians don't have the AC penalty anymore. I'm not sure if that protects a feature which originated in 3.5, but it can't hurt.
I'm also guessing the ceiling for rage damage isn't increasing, though individual instincts might. Peak barbarian damage is pretty good, even compared to the fighter.
What I'd bet on is rage becomes easier to use, like losing the cool down period that screws you if you are knocked out and healed back up, or maybe an action compressor like Mighty Rage coming online sooner.
I think its also important that barbarians get 12 hp per level.
More HP naturally + temp Hp and more damage when raging to offset the -1 ac
Haven't seen much talk of any barbarian changes. I heard rage is getting buffed in some way. I'd like to see a change to the balance of the animal unarmed attack choices. What else is likely to change or that you'd like to see?I'd like to see the barbarian's 1st level feat selection improved. It doesn't have to be much, as there are some strong ideas there that could stand to be a bit less situational.
It's a cascading problem, see. Fury instinct isn't good because the suite of 1st level class feats isn't good. Fighter tends to outshine the barb at low levels primarily due to a lack of great feats. The high flat damage vs. high accuracy dynamic between the two classes has them about on par while feeling different, but once you throw feats into the mix the barb feels lacking.
I think this idea hits at least the fury nail on the head in a way i didn't think about.