| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The other way to go at it, is if there's NOT a feat for it, make a raging person immune to crits while raging.
That'd convey the ' it did nothing!" sort of toughness associated with Barbarians and beserker sorts.
It'd still provide 'nickel and dime' damage which would take down someone, but it'd mitigate the flaws of a reduced AC, at least.
Immune to crits would be literally busted unless they receive like a huge penalty to AC like -10 or just make it so you auto-succeed when attacking a barb. It doesn't fit the flavor, it would be hella busted, and it would need the class to be nerfed everywhere to compensate that.
Just no.
|
As an always on ability, ignoring crits would be broken in the too good direction, just like always on off-guard would be broken in the too bad direction.
Earlier, I suggest a limited reaction to ignore a crit once per rage. I think that is balanced against other things in the game. It has a cost, in that if you use it, you can’t use Reactive Strike that round. But it lets you every once in a while shrug off an attack that would kill a lesser being.
Off guard is an interesting idea, but one thing to note is that would make enemies with sneak attack extremely effective against barbarians. I'd need to think through that impact both mechanically and thematically before I endorsed it. It would obviously need to come with some other defenses being cranked up higher, but there's something fun about Denying your foes Advantage being because you already handed it to them.
but there's something fun about Denying your foes Advantage being because you already handed it to them.
I imagined it as someone relatively weak trying to sneak up the barbarian thinking they were going to take the barbarian down without them even noticing they were there in the first place, only for the in the last second before the enemy's weapon impacts the barbarian turns and gives them a side eye with bloodshot eyes and a really creepy smile. This is why I think off-guard would fit barbarians, assuming they have a way to circumvent it against certain targets, because it would give the image of a reckless warrior that in reality is much more aware of his surroundings than it looks like.
but there's something fun about Denying your foes Advantage being because you already handed it to them.I imagined it as someone relatively weak trying to sneak up the barbarian thinking they were going to take the barbarian down without them even noticing they were there in the first place, only for the in the last second before the enemy's weapon impacts the barbarian turns and gives them a side eye with bloodshot eyes and a really creepy smile. This is why I think off-guard would fit barbarians, assuming they have a way to circumvent it against certain targets, because it would give the image of a reckless warrior that in reality is much more aware of his surroundings than it looks like.
And then barbarian lets their liver gets stabbed so they can cave the rogue's skull in. It's a fun image.
Off-guard would be terrible and not worth it. There is a lot of precision damage in this game and setting yourself up to take it is a bad, bad idea. Deny Advantage is an absolutely amazing defensive ability which makes the barbarian immune to flanking by most mooks. That is a huge defensive advantage. Taking that away from the barbarian when raging would be a super bad idea on top of opening yourself up to everything that can happen when off-guard.
Off-guard would be terrible and not worth it. There is a lot of precision damage in this game and setting yourself up to take it is a bad, bad idea. Deny Advantage is an absolutely amazing defensive ability which makes the barbarian immune to flanking by most mooks. That is a huge defensive advantage. Taking that away from the barbarian when raging would be a super bad idea on top of opening yourself up to everything that can happen when off-guard.
Agreed. Because of the new crit rules in 2E, the -1 AC is already too severe a penalty, and Off-guard is twice as bad. The AC penalty makes Barbarians feel really fragile, and no the extra damage from rage and the tiny amount of THPs doesn't make up for that.
Barbarians really need to be buffed up in the Remaster, at present I don't feel like they have a niche or specialization. They're supposed to be the big damage dealers, but I feel like Fighters and possibly Flurry Rangers seem to dish out just as much damage and have no AC penalty to deal with.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just don't see a world where the Barbarian gets significant buffs, given that it's already an excellent class and that we've seen from PC1 that Paizo is reluctant to make sweeping changes even to legitimately bad options.
I guess I could maybe see them removing the AC penalty and dropping the THP, raging resistance, and/or bumping them down to 8 or 10 HP like a normal martial, but I don't know who that would actually make happy.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It’s also not really the 2E design philosophy to make anyone that much better than anyone else. Fighters get the boost in accuracy (and Gunslingers, but reload limits how much of an advantage that is). But for the most part, everyone is meant to end up right around the same place. There are small differences, but I don’t see them boosting Barbarian damage. I don’t see them taking away the AC penalty, either. Barbarian is the one class that gets it, and that’s balanced with the d12 hp. Whether or not that is actually balanced is debatable, but I don’t think it’s likely to change.
Aspects of Rage, given developer comment, do seem likely to change. I’ll hold out hope for removing the restriction on concentrate actions.
I just don't see a world where the Barbarian gets significant buffs, given that it's already an excellent class and that we've seen from PC1 that Paizo is reluctant to make sweeping changes even to legitimately bad options.
I guess I could maybe see them removing the AC penalty and dropping the THP, raging resistance, and/or bumping them down to 8 or 10 HP like a normal martial, but I don't know who that would actually make happy.
It doesn't need significant buffs.
About the main thing I'd like to see is the reset until rage against mechanic removed much like they took off the old hex immunity for the witch. A barbarian that can't rage isn't a barbarian. Waiting a minute after getting knocked out or forced out of a rage pretty much makes the the class awful. As long as the barb can rage, they are a good class.
Turn Come and Get Me and Vengeful Strike into something worth using. Basically unique reactions that work.
Fighter has Reactive Strike. This works great with their abilities.
Champion has Champion's Reaction. One of the best reactions in the game.
Rogue has Opportune Backstab. Perhaps the best reaction attack in the game.
Barbarian could use some unique quality reaction like that. Make Vengeful Strike on par with the other reactions. Give it to all barbarians activating on a hit. You take damage, you give damage. Simple, effective reaction that gives them a reaction on par with the other classes for the cost of some damage.
Just some clean up of the mechanics and removal of some of the legacy limitations that no longer make sense.
I'm ok with the -1 AC myself. Not the Come and Get Me offguard, but the generic -1. I think Deny Advantage does a great job of showing the barbarian's instinctual defense.
I do not like once rage is removed, the barbarian is pretty much not able to rage for the entire battle. That makes the class terrible. It's too easy to do at lower level.
I don't expect much in terms of upgrades for the barb. It does what it is supposed to do very well. Could just use some polishing, a bit of rebalancing the instincts against each other, and making some feats more attractive.
About the main thing I'd like to see is the reset until rage against mechanic removed much like they took off the old hex immunity for the witch. A barbarian that can't rage isn't a barbarian. Waiting a minute after getting knocked out or forced out of a rage pretty much makes the the class awful. As long as the barb can rage, they are a good class.
...
I do not like once rage is removed, the barbarian is pretty much not able to rage for the entire battle. That makes the class terrible. It's too easy to do at lower level.
IMO rage could be changed to work like Channel Elements. Unlimited and the only requirement is that you aren't in rage. I also think it could compress a Strike into it.
The THP could be restricted like Rebirth in Living Stone ("After you gain temporary Hit Points from this impulse, you can't do so again for 10 minutes") but "recharging" after a minute instead of 10. Or IMO could be trade-off for Ferocity that is way more consistent with the rage thematic than just add some THP.Turn Come and Get Me and Vengeful Strike into something worth using. Basically unique reactions that work.
Fighter has Reactive Strike. This works great with their abilities.
Champion has Champion's Reaction. One of the best reactions in the game.
Rogue has Opportune Backstab. Perhaps the best reaction attack in the game.
Barbarian could use some unique quality reaction like that. Make Vengeful Strike on par with the other reactions. Give it to all barbarians activating on a hit. You take damage, you give damage. Simple, effective reaction that gives them a reaction on par with the other classes for the cost of some damage.
Being honest I think that all these "high quality reaction" shouldn't exists IMO. I would prefer instead if the game got way more options of cheap circunstancial reactions than a super-reaction easier to trigger that basically gives a free MAPless Strike. This is what makes many circunstancial reaction looks meh. Because they share the number of "reaction slots" that the char have and this makes the player to restrict their choices to these super-reactions.
But now is too late to large change like this. So I agree that to make the barbarian reactions worth they need to be boosted to become competitive with RS and other stronger reactions.
I'm ok with the -1 AC myself. Not the Come and Get Me offguard, but the generic -1. I think Deny Advantage does a great job of showing the barbarian's instinctual defense.
The point that I agree with off-guard is that the -1 AC untyped is something that I think is wrong IMO to a point that I prefer off-guard due it's a circumstance instead of untyped and thematically makes sense with the reckless of a barbarian. So if they just put a type in the penalty I will OK with it.
Just some clean up of the mechanics and removal of some of the legacy limitations that no longer make sense.
...
I don't expect much in terms of upgrades for the barb. It does what it is supposed to do very well. Could just use some polishing, a bit of rebalancing the instincts against each other, and making some feats more attractive.
I agree. But I need to point that instincts may need more than a bit of rebalancing. The Superstition and Fury instincts are the most obvious but even more famous instincts like giant IMO need a rebalance. Clumsy 1 is pretty big penalty to only get +2 dmg.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I thought about this more. I'd like to see the barbarian get the cleric treatment.
The cleric went from a class with tons of dead or boring feats and looked upon as very good but kind of boring to "Damn, I'm not sure what feat to take this level" and "Boy, the cleric is even stronger than it was" just due to clean up of legacy items no longer needed and making their feats more attractive.
So that's what I'd like to see Paizo do with the barbarian. Give it the cleric treatment to polish it up and take off some of the rough edges.
Deriven, that's exactly why I mostly focused on the Feats of the class.
The base chassis and Instinct power level are, quite frankly, in a great spot, despite not being above criticism. However, the class, much like the monk, suffers a little bit from lackluster feats that makes the most interesting options being far more attractive, while the two darlings, Rogues and Fighters, don't have this issue at all while also having incredibly stacked basic chassis.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fighter feats are pretty boring. I almost always find other things to do with my fighter feats than buy fighter feats. You buy your fighting style as a fighter and you're kind of done other than grabbing blindfight or reaction number increasers. You have to focus on a single group of weaopons to max the fighter. It does this one thing really, really well. Barb more fun to build than the fighter.
Rogue feats are amazing.
Cleric did suffer from same problem as the fighter, but now they have a lot of great feats.
Barb definitely needs some feat polishing. When I look at the barb, I only see animal if you want to tank and dragon and giant as great instincts. Every other instinct is campaign specific or bad. Whereas animal, giant, and dragon work in all campaigns and make the barbarian competitive.
The best barb build at the moment is a trip build for single target. For AoE a whirlwind build with giant or some kind of reach enhancing feat or ability.
Every other instinct and feats are lacking. The vengeance builds around Come and Get Me are just bad options.
Cleave is too situational.
I usually archetype into rogue on my barb or maybe mauler to grab the knockdown feats. Right now I'm building a barb rogue archetype working up to Opportune Backstab at level 16. That feat apparently let's you use it with any weapon. Barb has no good reaction feats other than Reactive Strike. I'd love a more appropriate reaction ability that didn't require set up with some "get yourself killed feat" like Come and Get Me.
To me, despite being glass cannon due being Giant Barb, the best build is the busted Double Slice Giant Barb. It is pretty powerful damage wise, and you can leverage weapon trait to cover your basis with combat maneuvers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
List of problem areas (premis of it being a problem)
I dont agree with all of them but this is basically everything we talked about so far as a problem area for the barb as i understood it.
Rage's limited use and loss of rage (premis is barb is only as good as other martials when in rage. Barb without rage is just weaker than other martials. Since barb is not better than other martials when raging there is no reason to limit it or for them to have conditions that make them lose it for a whole fight)
Come Get me (Vulnerability far outstrips its benefits, leading to an early grave with no rage and having given little back to foes in return)
Cleave (Map applies making it strictly a worse use of a reaction than reactive strike. In addition adjacency req limits its use, making it will trigger in narrow circumstances. Less triggers + less chance to hit but feat is offered at the same level as reactive strike for barbarian)
Fury barbarian instinct balance (not enough good feats at level 1 to make the 1 extra feat worth losing out on the damage other barbarian instincts enjoy +instinct feats and benefits. Personally adding in its raging resistance seems like a logical absurdity they resist physical weapons rather than resisting a type of damage like slashing or piercing. A hammer and a tail both bludgeon but this barb cant handle tails)
Spirit barbarian anathema (anathema restriction makes playing in a game with ubiquitous use of magic difficult and unreasonably limiting)
-1 AC (Premis is this -1 on top of only med armor and no shield makes barbarians crit magnets)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Add the restriction on using Concentrate actions during Rage (particularly things like Demoralize without taking a Feat and Command an Animal).
Oh right I forgot about that one.
I think you wrote Spirit Instinct in your recap while meaning Superstition Instinct.
Thanks. I still get those two mixed up in my head.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm kinda hopeful on the changes
I like a lot of barbarian. But the fact that when you can't rage you can't use majority of your class feats and features.
It's not fun when a rogue can't use it's sneak attack but that's monster design, not being knocked out by a lucky crit the round before
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
You know what would be cool and maybe balanced for low level play? A reaction strike that triggers when the barbarian gets crit. Soaking that big to risk one of your own, or getting one last swing before you drop, feels very barbarian.
Storm druids can do do that with Tempest Surge at level 6, but I think it could work as a level 1 barbarian feature. Doesn't seem likely, though, since ranger and rogue didn't get built in reactions.
Tooth for a Tooth
Reaction
Once per day
Trigger: you are are critically hit but before you receive damage.
Effect: Strike at the foe that critically hit you. If you have Furious Finish you may use this instead.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know what would be cool and maybe balanced for low level play? A reaction strike that triggers when the barbarian gets crit. Soaking that big to risk one of your own, or getting one last swing before you drop, feels very barbarian.
Also plays well with Rage drop in AC…
…could be cool to have different Instinct procs too…
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know what would be cool and maybe balanced for low level play? A reaction strike that triggers when the barbarian gets crit. Soaking that big to risk one of your own, or getting one last swing before you drop, feels very barbarian.
Storm druids can do do that with Tempest Surge at level 6, but I think it could work as a level 1 barbarian feature. Doesn't seem likely, though, since ranger and rogue didn't get built in reactions.
Everyone should have built-in reactions to devalue how powerful Shield Block as a general feat is.
Not just Barbs but Monks, Rangers too.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You know what would be cool and maybe balanced for low level play? A reaction strike that triggers when the barbarian gets crit. Soaking that big to risk one of your own, or getting one last swing before you drop, feels very barbarian.
Storm druids can do do that with Tempest Surge at level 6, but I think it could work as a level 1 barbarian feature. Doesn't seem likely, though, since ranger and rogue didn't get built in reactions.
Everyone should have built-in reactions to devalue how powerful Shield Block as a general feat is.
Not just Barbs but Monks, Rangers too.
Or how powerful reactive strike/stand still/disrupt prey are. I'm kind of sick of how meta those are. Feels like everyone lost AoO but most people buy it back because the potential damage increase is so high, especially when enemies can't just assume your PC has it.
|
Or how powerful reactive strike/stand still/disrupt prey are. I'm kind of sick of how meta those are. Feels like everyone lost AoO but most people buy it back because the potential damage increase is so high, especially when enemies can't just assume your PC has it.You know what would be cool and maybe balanced for low level play? A reaction strike that triggers when the barbarian gets crit. Soaking that big to risk one of your own, or getting one last swing before you drop, feels very barbarian.
Storm druids can do do that with Tempest Surge at level 6, but I think it could work as a level 1 barbarian feature. Doesn't seem likely, though, since ranger and rogue didn't get built in reactions.
Everyone should have built-in reactions to devalue how powerful Shield Block as a general feat is.
Not just Barbs but Monks, Rangers too.
My usual PFS GM has intelligent enemies assume that any obvious martial might be a Fighter. Doubly so if they have a reach weapon.