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of P2, steals abilities from other classes, and adds those abilities in better forms. There are no restrictions on all its whack mechanics, and I can't understand how it was released by Paizo.
- Esoteric Lore is an uber lore, but unlike Bardic Lore or the Loremaster, it auto-scales at the minimum level. The other lores cap at expert when you've spent 4 skill increases to reach legendary at 15th. It's also Charisma based?!? What sense does that make? Why does Charisma have anything to do with knowing things? 1 feat let's you apply it to any topic at a -2, but the accelerated, free skill increases nullify and blow past that compared to Bardic/Loremaster. Further, those other lores are Int-based. Thaum's class stat is Cha, so this is pretty much assured to be maxxed. There's another thread arguing that this is required for the Exploit Vuln shtick, but that grants bonus damage even on a fail, so why does lore have to break in favor of this 1 class?
- Weapon Implement reaction also triggers on Concentrate which Reactive Strike doesn't. If you want to use a ranged weapon as the other reaction classes, you need a fighter/paladin feat to do it, and you need additional feats to expand it. Weapon Implement gives you 10' range right off the bat for free. That's 5' further than Reactive Strike![/list]
- Every other class in the game needs feats for hand action economy. At L5, Thaumaturge swaps implements as free actions?!? That includes weapons. For free. Again, no feats required. Meanwhile, rogue and ranger have to spend a feat just to draw and attack with the same action and only for weapons.
- Scrolls don't need any check to use. It's only an L1 feat, and it's automatic for every single spell. Oh, and of course you can hold them in your implement hand, so you don't need to worry about hands for much of anything. You can start battle with implements in hand and scrolls in both hands plus a third scroll in gloves of storing to cast 3 spells in combat without spending extra actions just like a spellcaster. (Classes archetyping into Thaum can also abuse this for only 2 feats. Now a dual-wielding martial can cast scrolls out of their "implement" hand.)
- Cursed Effigy doesn't require anything, not even being adjacent. Just "Strike", spend 1A, now your Exploit Vuln foe is at -2 status penalty to saves vs... that's right your spell scrolls which cast automatically at your Class DC (expert at 9th) based off your class stat (cha) so it's easier for you to land spells than a wizard.
- Intensify Vulnerability for Weapon Implement for 1 action, gives you a +2 status bonus to hit your Exploit Vuln target. I realize fighter can get heroism and buff status as well, but still this ability puts the Thaumaturge's weapon accuracy on par with the fighter at L9 with no investment. It's just part of the class.
- There is no success criteria for targeting a creature with Exploit Vulnerability. Thaumaturge abilities only state they work against the target of your Exploit Vulnerability. They don't care if you failed or crit failed the roll. If you don't think that's true, look at the Failure result. You still apply personal antithesis damage. When you spend 1A to Exploit, you successfully "targeted."
- Class DC goes to Master at 17th. This automatically raises scroll spellcasting DC to Master for free. Any other character dipping into spellcasting has to spend feats to get Expert and Master level casting.
I'm late to the game. Yes, I'm just reading the class now to help build a 10th level replacement character. Scrolls are dirt cheap at this level. Thaum has a bow in one hand along with a scroll of some debuff like Slow. In free hand is a Sure Strike scroll.
Turn 1: Exploit Vuln, Sure Strike, Strike with bow.
Turn 2: Cursed Effigy, Cast Slow on foe who now automatically has a -2 status penalty to save at the same DC as the wizard in the party.
It looks fun as heck to do some combination of the above, but it ignores and rewrites basic mechanics and feats in order to advantage the Thaumaturge more than other classes. It's on a full martial chassis that automatically grants Master spellcasting (L1 scroll feat) with no feat investment beyond that and with the class stat also being the spellcasting stat. I rarely take the time to post something this critical. I'm truly a Paizo fan and don't enjoy casting shade. Thaumaturge looks like a third party class more than a Paizo level class, what am I missing?
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While thauamturge does have a lot of strong abilities, it does seem like you're missing a few of the things that limit it. Off the top of my head:
Weapon implement reaction isn't the only Strike Reaction that can trigger on Concentrate. Having many triggers is good, but only being triggerable by your one target of Exploit Vulnerability is a real downside. I have seen weapon thaumaturges wish they could react to a different creature moving past them plenty of times.
Thaumaturges swap implements for free, but ONLY as part of using the implements action. So for the weapon they can switch to the weapon if their reaction is triggered, but not any time they want to Strike. For regalia, which doesn't have an action, this is particularly awkward.
Some Intensify Vulnerability options are very good. But only being able to Intensify after you've already Exploited on a previous turn really does reduce how often that effect is up significantly in actual play, in my experience. Crowded and restricted action economy, in general, tends to make what thaumaturges can do in a round in practice less than what they do on paper.
Scroll Thaumaturgy is legitimately a great feat. But entering a fight with scrolls already in both hands is not something a thaumaturge generally wants to do, because Implement Empowerment, which turns off when holding anything outside of a short list of items, doesn't have an exception for scrolls included in your ability to hold them in implement-bearing hands.
A bow is a 1+ hand weapon, not a 1-handed weapon. It doesn't qualify as a weapon implement, which it seems you're trying to build it as.
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It does make it really hard when you look at most of the other classes, they don't get benefits like this. Swashbuckler, Inventor, Investigator look sick as they have to work really hard to get things the Thaumaturge just gets for free. It does make you wonder what Too Good To Be True really means?
As a class Thaumaturge can do almost everything bar spell casting with minor effort. At least they are stuck with one handed weapons.
They can't quite do everything at once though. There are some trade offs in their implement choice.
Very similar to the Kineticist in that they can be built for very different purposes depending on what you want to do.
Weapon implement reaction isn't the only Strike Reaction that can trigger on Concentrate. Having many triggers is good, but only being triggerable by your one target of Exploit Vulnerability is a real downside. I have seen weapon thaumaturges wish they could react to a different creature moving past them plenty of times.
It isn't, but all the others require additional feats and aren't granted automatically like the fighter and thaumaturge's reactions. It's a good point about only being one target, but on the other hand it has concentrate (fighter doesn't, and they're supposed to be the premiere reacter). That's not on par with the rest of the reaction attacks, but I acknowledge you're saying the trade off is 1 target.
Thaumaturges swap implements for free, but ONLY as part of using the implements action. So for the weapon they can switch to the weapon if their reaction is triggered, but not any time they want to Strike. For regalia, which doesn't have an action, this is particularly awkward.
Relevant text: "...to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action." Attacking with a weapon seems like a viable action. Where is their language that suggests this isn't viable? I acknowledge your restriction, however. I still think this is an example of breaking mechanics. Implements and 1 handed weapons aren't actually a drawback if you can use those hands for desired tasks anyway, and this doesn't even require feats like skirmish strike or quick draw.
Some Intensify Vulnerability options are very good. But only being able to Intensify after you've already Exploited on a previous turn really does reduce how often that effect is up significantly in actual play, in my experience. Crowded and restricted action economy, in general, tends to make what thaumaturges can do in a round in practice less than what they do on paper.
It's a good point. I think it's unusual that it's free first of all. Second, spending an action to debuff during your turn is highly desirable. Demoralize, reposition to get flanking - good examples. Those take rolls and risk reactions. Intensify is free and 1A for +2, auto.
Scroll Thaumaturgy is legitimately a great feat. But entering a fight with scrolls already in both hands is not something a thaumaturge generally wants to do, because Implement Empowerment, which turns off when holding anything outside of a short list of items, doesn't have an exception for scrolls included in your ability to hold them in implement-bearing hands.
Can you point me to Implement Empowerment? I'm not seeing that. Point stands on "L1 feat granting Master casting with primary class stat" and "implement hand counts as free hand for scrolls."
A bow is a 1+ hand weapon, not a 1-handed weapon. It doesn't qualify as a weapon implement, which it seems you're trying to build it as.
I didn't think about this. Any threads where that's been discussed more? Is it consensus now?
Thanks for the replies!
At least they are stuck with one handed weapons.
Isn't a bastard sword a one handed weapon? I read no requirements on Thaumaturge abilities that things don't work when wielding a weapon in two hands. I also didn't see "free hand" as a requirement. What's to stop you from using a bastard sword as your implement, gripping it two-handed, and also casting from scrolls at the same time?
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Its a very nice class indeed but in practice it DOES have its limitations which significantly bring it down.
As Hammerjack pointed out, its biggest issue is its action economy. You pretty much ALWAYS want at least one extra action every round :-).
Its a martial with an attack stat of only 16. Hardly the biggest problem ever but that does put it somewhat behind the curve 1/2 the time.
From a combat point of view its a bit MAD. Most people want to max out (or close to max out) Cha and Str. That means your other defensive stats are going to suffer.
Some of its abilities are also fairly campaign dependent. Exploit Vulnerability is MUCH better if your campaign features lots of different enemies with weaknesses that you don't know about in advance. If you're facing enemies without weaknesses all you get is Personal Anithesis. Even worse are campaigns where enemies almost all have weakness <blort> because then your entire party will be hitting that weakness and your damage booster just became useless.
All that said, I LOVE it, ESPECIALLY for PFS where covering all the RK and all the social skills just rocks. Its definitely on the high end of the power/flexibility spectrum but its NOT over the top.
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At least they are stuck with one handed weapons.Isn't a bastard sword a one handed weapon? I read no requirements on Thaumaturge abilities that things don't work when wielding a weapon in two hands. I also didn't see "free hand" as a requirement. What's to stop you from using a bastard sword as your implement, gripping it two-handed, and also casting from scrolls at the same time?
Its pretty much a moot point. With Implements Empowerment you pretty much get the same damage with a bastard sword in 1 hand or in 2 hands. So why would you ever use it in two hands?
Ok, found Implement's Empowerment: "You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon"
If a bow doesn't work, because it's "1+" and a bastard sword held in two hands can't use a shifting rune to turn into a greataxe, why would the quoted text above disqualify a bastard sword gripped with both hands? (Playing devil's advocate here to understand.)
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Ok, found Implement's Empowerment: "You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon"
If a bow doesn't work, because it's "1+" and a bastard sword held in two hands can't use a shifting rune to turn into a greataxe, why would the quoted text above disqualify a bastard sword gripped with both hands? (Playing devil's advocate here to understand.)
You're trying to claim that the rules would allow you to wield a bastard sword in 2 hands and still use Implement's Empowerment?
Uh, no.
Even if you find some convoluted line of argument that could conceivably allow that no sane GM in the world would allow it. If you tried it on me I'd just laugh in your face :-) (including in PFS).
Scroll Thaumaturgy is legitimately a great feat. But entering a fight with scrolls already in both hands is not something a thaumaturge generally wants to do, because Implement Empowerment, which turns off when holding anything outside of a short list of items, doesn't have an exception for scrolls included in your ability to hold them in implement-bearing hands.
Ok, found the empowerment section. Here's the scroll feat text: "You can draw and activate scrolls with the same hand holding an implement, much like you can for esoterica."
Isn't this considered to include scrolls in esoterica? For purposes not just of casting but of empowerment? Due to having the feat.
And then even if empowerment doesn't work, who cares about the loss of a few points of damage when it sets up your foe to have a -2 status penalty to spell saves against your wizard tier DC for the rest of the fight?
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Ok, found Implement's Empowerment: "You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon"
If a bow doesn't work, because it's "1+" and a bastard sword held in two hands can't use a shifting rune to turn into a greataxe, why would the quoted text above disqualify a bastard sword gripped with both hands? (Playing devil's advocate here to understand.)
You're trying to claim that the rules would allow you to wield a bastard sword in 2 hands and still use Implement's Empowerment?
Uh, no.
Even if you find some convoluted line of argument that could conceivably allow that no sane GM in the world would allow it. If you tried it on me I'd just laugh in your face :-) (including in PFS).
Just trying to get ahead of the players argument and understand what the consensus is. I'm new to the thaumaturge ability conversation. Thanks.
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The bastard sword thing is handled by forum errata (and maybe real errata idk lol) here.
The bastard sword thing is handled by forum errata (and maybe real errata idk lol) here.
Thanks, that's certainly interesting. By this logic, it is fine to use a bow as your weapon implement, because it only requires a single hand to wield:
That's not how it works. Handedness in PF2 is determined by the number of hands being used to wield the weapon. So if you're using a jezail in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon and you can't use any options that require you to be using a firearm one-handed until you're back to wielding it in one hand. If you use a dagger in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon for the purposes of feats and abilities that require a two-handed weapon, as laid out on pages 279-280 of the CRB. When determining the handedness of a weapon, the two questions are just "What's the minimum number of hands required to wield this" and "How many hands am I currently using to wield it?"
The bastard sword thing is handled by forum errata (and maybe real errata idk lol) here.Thanks, that's certainly interesting. By this logic, it is fine to use a bow as your weapon implement, because it only requires a single hand to wield:
That's not how it works. Handedness in PF2 is determined by the number of hands being used to wield the weapon. So if you're using a jezail in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon and you can't use any options that require you to be using a firearm one-handed until you're back to wielding it in one hand. If you use a dagger in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon for the purposes of feats and abilities that require a two-handed weapon, as laid out on pages 279-280 of the CRB. When determining the handedness of a weapon, the two questions are just "What's the minimum number of hands required to wield this" and "How many hands am I currently using to wield it?"
I don’t understand your logic. As far as I understand it, when wielding a bow, the answer to the first question is “two”. The answer to the second question is also “two”. This would be different for any one-handed weapon with the ability to wield in two hands. Then it could be “one” and “one”; or “one” and “two”.
Unless you want to whack people with the stave of the bow one-handed.
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I don’t understand your logic. As far as I understand it, when wielding a bow, the answer to the first question is “two”. The answer to the second question is also “two”. This would be different for any one-handed weapon with the ability to wield in two hands. Then it could be “one” and “one”; or “one” and “two”.
I disagree. The CRB p276 describes 1+ thusly: "You can hold a weapon with a 1+
entry in one hand, but the process of shooting it requiresusing a second to retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow.
This means you can do things with your free hand while
holding the bow without changing your grip, but the
other hand must be free when you shoot. To properly
wield a 1+ weapon, you must hold it in one hand and
also have a hand free."
Nowhere in the 1+ description does it say you ever wield the weapon in two hands.
If people are making the argument that the arrow is not a valid esoterica item to be holding, they are forgetting that that holds true for the hand crossbow and sling as well. Every ranged weapon also holds ammunition before firing. By that logic, no ranged weapon is valid. Since the weapon implement reaction clearly does not intend for that to be true by allowing a 10' trigger for its reaction when wielding a ranged weapon, ranged weapons, and therefore their ammunition, must be valid implements.
Never played a Thaumaturge. Going to have to give this a shot some time and see how well it plays in in real play. It does seem to build off other class's abilities and improve on them a bit, but they don't seem to get all the abilities of a given class that make the class play well.
Someone posted a while back they can do a lot of damage, but it looks like you have to put some work in to do it.
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It does make it really hard when you look at most of the other classes, they don't get benefits like this. Swashbuckler, Inventor, Investigator look sick as they have to work really hard to get things the Thaumaturge just gets for free. It does make you wonder what Too Good To Be True really means?
The Swashbuckler and Investigator are barely functional dumpster fires of design mistakes. Is that really what you'd rather the Thaumaturge be?
Having post-CRB classes that actually work well is something to applaud, not get upset over.
If people are making the argument that the arrow is not a valid esoterica item to be holding, they are forgetting that that holds true for the hand crossbow and sling as well. Every ranged weapon also holds ammunition before firing.
This is not even remotely how crossbows, slings, or firearms work. You reload them as an action, but you're not holding the ammo before or afterward.
Normally you can't reload if you don't have a free hand, but thaumaturges have a feat to get around that. That's what allows hand crossbows, firearms, and others to work.
Beyond the tangent about ammunition, bows aren't valid for one extremely obvious reason: Both weapon implement and implement esoterica require a one-handed weapon. Bows are not one-handed weapons.
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Never played a Thaumaturge. Going to have to give this a shot some time and see how well it plays in in real play. It does seem to build off other class's abilities and improve on them a bit, but they don't seem to get all the abilities of a given class that make the class play well.
Someone posted a while back they can do a lot of damage, but it looks like you have to put some work in to do it.
Its a very nice class but really is one of those classes that has to be played to see both its strengths and weaknesses. It is definitely limited by the action economy in ways that aren't obvious on just reading the class.
Its not a huge single target damage dealer unless its ability to target weaknesses is particularly effective. Its not bad, mind. Certainly on par for a martial. But its not a barbarian or a fighter.
But, given how much else it brings to the table, it should NOT be as good as a barbarian or a fighter so thats fine.
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It does make it really hard when you look at most of the other classes, they don't get benefits like this. Swashbuckler, Inventor, Investigator look sick as they have to work really hard to get things the Thaumaturge just gets for free. It does make you wonder what Too Good To Be True really means?The Swashbuckler and Investigator are barely functional dumpster fires of design mistakes. Is that really what you'd rather the Thaumaturge be?
Having post-CRB classes that actually work well is something to applaud, not get upset over.
Thaumaturge when too far in my opinion. Just the limits and the power expecations from other classes is a bit out of wack. The 3 classes I mentioned are under done. Thaumaturge is overdone. I don't like the way they did the hands for the implements. The original posters points are mostly valid.
Other classes have to wait much longer for similar abilitites. I mean Master Monster Hunter from Ranger is a great ability but you don't get it till level 10 and it takes a couple of feats. Thaumaturges get it at level 1 with one feat. It is just not even close to reasonable.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
what am I missing?
It's just that it's a martial with a mental key stat, defenses that are typically on the weaker side, and a linear, sometimes action-heavy damage booster that's solid but doesn't get boosted by or interact with much in turn.
It definitely gets more in raw power/utility to make up for being a martial with a mental key stat than the others in the game, but taken on its own, it makes some sacrifices when it comes to total damage/defense compared to more dedicated martials and obviously can't offer as much utility and support as casters, so it totals out to being within acceptable boundaries for the game. (Specifically, for the original CRB classes, which tend to have the simplest and strongest selection.)
Where it does get a bit too overpowering for my taste is Recall Knowledge, because Esoteric Lore eats a good bit of that space's lunch even before the absurdity of Diverse Lore enters the picture. But, other RK-centric options and such tend to at least hold up okay in comparison, as far as I've seen — and much like Bard's dominance at party support, RK isn't something I tend to ban a class over being too good at or anything.
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Apart from Diverse Lore, none of this is unusual. The Fighter gets to have +2 to hit over everyone but the Gunslinger, gets more feats than anybody else, gets a free bonus to initiative, can make any enemy flat-footed to everyone with a 1st level feat, can pseudo-Aid with attacks at range, can get more reach at will, can make an attack and automatically get a free Shove... etc.. You could do that for every class in the game.
All classes change the rules to some extent, according to the design space they are intended to inhabit. It's just that starting with Dark Archive, the designers really started to cook with fire when it comes to more complex classes as well.
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This is not even remotely how crossbows, slings, or firearms work. You reload them as an action, but you're not holding the ammo before or afterward.Beyond the tangent about ammunition, bows aren't valid for one extremely obvious reason: Both weapon implement and implement esoterica require a one-handed weapon. Bows are not one-handed weapons.
This is not an honest argument. That's not how holding works. Pour a beer in a mug. Hold the mug in your hand. You are holding a beer in your hand. It's in a mug, but no one will agree you aren't holding a beer because it's an object removed.
Put a bolt in a crossbow. In your hand is now a crossbow and a bolt. If the ranged weapon's ammo isn't covered as valid esoterica for the bow, it isn't covered by the crossbow. The bolt is in your hand. Saying it isn't is mental gymnastics.
As for the handedness, I quoted Michael Sayre saying that's not how the rule is intended to be read. Take it however you like at your table, but it looked clear to me.
It's clear the extra damage for the class is intended to compensate for, not add to, 2H weapon damage above d8. Bows don't do that kind of damage, so it doesn't make sense why they wouldn't be valid weapon implements.
I agree the ammo is a tangent. There are responses saying the class isn't broken in general terms or that other classes break the rules. I disagree other classes break rules. You compare the abilities of the new class against existing dynamics to get a sense of balance. I've listed specifics. They are significantly off the typical power scale in each case. It's the kind of imbalance I see on the Pathfinder 3pp channel when new classes pop up. The most egregious is Scroll Thaumaturgy, a single L1 feat that replaces 90% of the Scroll Trickster dedication and all its feats through L20. On top of that, it eliminates the need for a free hand. That's bonkers. The class is full of stuff like this, but that alone is way off.
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It's largely academic if bows are actually valid options for Implement's Empowerment and such. To fire a bow, you need a free hand. You need that hand for your other implements, otherwise your action economy will be clogged to the point of insanity. As such, bows become a terrible choice the second you have any implement but the weapon implement.
There are exactly three ranged weapon as of now that are worth using on the Thaum. The repeating handcrossbow and the two air repeaters.
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As for the handedness, I quoted Michael Sayre saying that's not how the rule is intended to be read.
Bow are not mentioned anywhere in that quote. Again, the answer to this question is as simple as looking at the weapon table. Bows are not 1h weapons. They are not listed as a 1h weapon, and per the rules you've quoted you cannot wield them properly with only one hand.
There are exactly three ranged weapon as of now that are worth using on the Thaum. The repeating handcrossbow and the two air repeaters.
The boomerang is also quite good, tbh. Maybe even slightly too good.
The boomerang is also quite good, tbh. Maybe even slightly too good.
There are exactly three ranged weapon as of now that are worth using on the Thaum. The repeating handcrossbow and the two air repeaters.
Oh, right. I always forget about thrown weapons XD
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Unlike the swashbuckler, inventor, and investigator, the thaumaturge was actually given the tools to fullfill its role quickly and easily. Like the fighter, barbarian, and rogue, it is a level of class design that other classes should aspire to, not tear down.
That being said, it is also the only class that got me kicked out of a play group because it stepped on too many toes.
Unlike the swashbuckler, inventor, and investigator, the thaumaturge was actually given the tools to fullfill its role quickly and easily. Like the fighter, barbarian, and rogue, it is a level of class design that other classes should aspire to, not tear down.
That being said, it is also the only class that got me kicked out of a play group because it stepped on too many toes.
What did you build and what were the other people doing, if I may ask?
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Thaumaturge when too far in my opinion.
I think it got it about exactly right (maybe slightly on the too powerful/flexible side) and that the issue is that some of the other classes are too weak/inflexible.
One thing that the thaumaturge definitely has that others don't is that it is quite good from level 1 through level 20. Only a few other classes really accomplish this. And it pretty much does it all in class. A pure Thaumaturge is quite viable and attractive.
And I also think the Thaumaturge is more campaign dependent than most classes. Both in how useful Exploit Vulnerability is but also in how useful RK is, how much the action economy hurts you, etc.
But we're largely arguing semantics here. We both think it is roughly on par with the better classes and better than the average or worse classes.
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Paizo learned from Gunslinger. Thaumaturge seems powerful but the class has built in self limits. Using Cha as their KAS, having light armor, only 16/+3 in their attack stat, really helps to limit Thaumaturge. Not to mention the fact they only get 8 hit points, a total of 40 hit points less then the other martials. They get the same as support casters/utility martials. Not including Gunslinger which i don't think is a good enough chassis but that's a topic for a different thread.
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Paizo learned from Gunslinger. Thaumaturge seems powerful but the class has built in self limits. Using Cha as their KAS, having light armor, only 16/+3 in their attack stat, really helps to limit Thaumaturge. Not to mention the fact they only get 8 hit points, a total of 40 hit points less then the other martials. They get the same as support casters/utility martials. Not including Gunslinger which i don't think is a good enough chassis but that's a topic for a different thread.
People also often forget that Exploit Vulnerability has several key weaknesses.
Damage from weaknesses isn't doubled on a crit, so the Thaum's damage output has lower extremes than that of other high damage classes.
Weaknesses also don't stack, only the largest one is applied. As such, when you face creatures with weaknesses that you can trigger anyway, then the ability becomes useless beyond the information. Which can happen quite easily with common weaknesses such as silver, fire, cold iron or adamantine. The info is still very good, but that leads to the ironic problem of the Thaum being at its weakest against the very creatures it's lore-wise supposed to fight, at least relatively to other classes. Because other class' damage boosters still work, for them weakness damage is just a bonus.
Paizo learned from Gunslinger. Thaumaturge seems powerful but the class has built in self limits. Using Cha as their KAS, having light armor, only 16/+3 in their attack stat, really helps to limit Thaumaturge. Not to mention the fact they only get 8 hit points, a total of 40 hit points less then the other martials. They get the same as support casters/utility martials. Not including Gunslinger which i don't think is a good enough chassis but that's a topic for a different thread.People also often forget that Exploit Vulnerability has several key weaknesses.
Damage from weaknesses isn't doubled on a crit, so the Thaum's damage output has lower extremes than that of other high damage classes.
I never even considered the damage doubling. That actually puts it down a peg or two honestly when you think about it.
Looking at weapon/armor/spell proficiency advancement, the Thaumaturge, Rogue, Investigator and Inventor are all clearly martials. As is the Magus.
But you're right about Alchemist and Kineticist, they're "nonstandard" in that they don't follow the proficiency patterns of either full casters or martials. Also in the "nonstandard" group are Summoners and Cleric/Warpriest...though the Summoner's *eidolon* follows a standard martial progression.
Oh, I agree that from the proficiency patterns they are "martials."
My question is more along the lines of, "but should they be?" They have a lot more skills than other martials...if they behaved more like Alchemist/Kineticist what issues would that raise? I ask, because in many ways they all seem to get some free lunch portions. YMMV
Skills and out-of-combat utility aren't equal to combat capability, nor are they mutually exclusive. While that wasn't an intent behind the design as afaik, that's how you end up with the worst combat class in the game, the Investigator. Combat is a core part of the gameplay, so there is just so much leeway you have on that front.
And they don't get that for free, either. For example, when you compare a Fighter or Barbarian to a Rogue (or a Thaum or Investigator), the latter has to jump through far more hoops to get its combat capability and has worse survivability as well.
The Kineticist does its own thing in general, so you can hardly apply anything from it to more traditional classes, much less martials, given that it is more of an off-brand caster than anythign else. The Alchemist is an even worse example, given that it only fits into the system by the skin of its teeth and is generally not considered to be well designed.
What did you build and what were the other people doing, if I may ask?Unlike the swashbuckler, inventor, and investigator, the thaumaturge was actually given the tools to fullfill its role quickly and easily. Like the fighter, barbarian, and rogue, it is a level of class design that other classes should aspire to, not tear down.
That being said, it is also the only class that got me kicked out of a play group because it stepped on too many toes.
Alaric Ravenwood was a LG charismatic noble and knight who wielded a battleaxe that I was planning on taking into Sentinel for heavy armor.
However, the GM's wife happened to be playing a champion with a pole axe. She did not take kindly to there being another axe-wielding knight with a savior complex in the party. That of course meant the GM didn't like it either.
When they asked me to change characters and I instead pointed out the myriad of ways our characters were VERY different, I was unceremoniously dropped from the party. Never made it from Session 0 to Session 1.
Note that my character was rather mercenary, and did not have a savior complex. She just thought it did because it happened to be LG.
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I can't wait to see what Plane has to say about Animist...
What did you build and what were the other people doing, if I may ask?Unlike the swashbuckler, inventor, and investigator, the thaumaturge was actually given the tools to fullfill its role quickly and easily. Like the fighter, barbarian, and rogue, it is a level of class design that other classes should aspire to, not tear down.
That being said, it is also the only class that got me kicked out of a play group because it stepped on too many toes.
Alaric Ravenwood was a LG charismatic noble and knight who wielded a battleaxe that I was planning on taking into Sentinel for heavy armor.
However, the GM's wife happened to be playing a champion with a pole axe. She did not take kindly to there being another axe-wielding knight with a savior complex in the party. That of course meant the GM didn't like it either.
When they asked me to change characters and I instead pointed out the myriad of ways our characters were VERY different, I was unceremoniously dropped from the party. Never made it from Session 0 to Session 1.
Note that my character was rather mercenary, and did not have a savior complex. She just thought it did because it happened to be LG.
Welp, you probably dodged a bullet on that one. That doesn't sound like a table I would like to play at, if that was all it took. Funny that it didn't even have anything to do with the Thaumaturge XD
Welp, you probably dodged a bullet on that one. That doesn't sound like a table I would like to play at, if that was all it took.
Most certainly.
Funny that it didn't even have anything to do with the Thaumaturge XD
Yes and no. The fact that I had a high Charisma and all the Charisma skills stepped on the toes of the champion skill's skill set (just Diplomacy). There was also a knowledge character in the party that feared my thaumaturge's ability to know everything better than they did. All the casters didn't like that I could also use scrolls, and not just any scrolls, but ALL of them from all their traditions. There was also a martial or two that I outdamaged under ideal circumstances.
I argued that these were all strengths for the party, but if anything, the redundancy made it easier for the GM's wife to get everyone on her side.
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Yeah... the one really weird thing about Thaumaturge is their "I dominate in all the Charisma skills and all the RK skills" schtick. I feel like being afraid of scroll use is a bit much, but I've never been in a party that used a lot of scrolls. Possibly it would change things if I had been.
I can't wait to see what Plane has to say about Animist...
Now there's another class I haven't dug into yet. ;)
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I play a Thaumaturge precisely because my group had a lot of holes in composition.
We have a Cleric, Barbarian, Rogue, Ranger, Monk, Thaumaturge.
We needed a support character with Recall Knowledge, and having a primary CHA class was nice, too.
Diverse Lore and Scroll Thaumaturgy were basically what ticked me over to Thaum from Bard.
In this case, I don't so much step on people's toes as fill in the gaps.
Most of my combat time is spent on RK, Cha skills, and occasionally Flinging Magic. I know the wand isn't optimal, but we're already so melee heavy (and I didn't want even the chance of outshining anyone in melee, so no Weapon Implement).
2nd implement is gonna be the Regalia for that status bonus to party damage.
I play a Thaumaturge precisely because my group had a lot of holes in composition.
We have a Cleric, Barbarian, Rogue, Ranger, Monk, Thaumaturge.We needed a support character with Recall Knowledge, and having a primary CHA class was nice, too.
Diverse Lore and Scroll Thaumaturgy were basically what ticked me over to Thaum from Bard.In this case, I don't so much step on people's toes as fill in the gaps.
Most of my combat time is spent on RK, Cha skills, and occasionally Flinging Magic. I know the wand isn't optimal, but we're already so melee heavy (and I didn't want even the chance of outshining anyone in melee, so no Weapon Implement).
2nd implement is gonna be the Regalia for that status bonus to party damage.
Ranged Thaumaturge can also do some decent stuff with one-handed crossbows. Possibly take a look at the rotary bow some time.
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People trying to take sly snipes at the OP talking about the Animist are proving OPs point for them, apparently, some fans and Paizo itself are incapable of seeing the cracks in the tidy niche protection that had at one time stood as a pillar of the PF2 game system which is increasingly being chipped away at and/or ignored.
People say Monk can't get Legendary Unarmed Attacks because doing so would step on the Fighters toes but they're utterly silent when the Thaum can and frequently DOES have more Legendary Skills as well as the most and best Recall Knowledge Skills than any other Class, build, Archetype, or even optionally build PC using Free Archetype and Dual Class by all by itself (unless you're counting a comparison where the "other" is also a full or partial Thaum too). Alchemists have to have a TERRIBLE to hit, weak HP, bad defenses, and fiddly daily resources in order to OPTIONALLY (and if built knowlagably) be able to trigger a handful of weaknesses but the Thaum just gets it for free and can do against ANYONE by making up some silly personal head-canon which, in many ways takes what the Investigator did (empower the GM to provide interesting stuff for the PC to learn about via Class features, leads to follow, info to uncover) and flips it on its head where the player can just inject whatever BS they like into the game and it is suddenly real...
Whack is the perfect term for the Class.
Whack is the perfect term for the Class.
If it was just the one class, maybe.
But when it isn't the only class that does that, is it really a problem? If all classes have something that they are Whack at, that is the ideal of the different, but balanced game design.
I can't wait to see what Plane has to say about Animist...Now there's another class I haven't dug into yet. ;)
It's like Thaumaturge but a spellcasting class instead of a martial. And instead of having to choose Implements at character creation and level up, they can pick what other classes to poach from each day.