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Any thoughts on if the monk is going to get anything new or different in the remaster? Or if they need anything in particular? I do wonder about their survivability.
On another note, with how key Reactive Strike is for martials in general, should it be given a bit more freely instead of just being The Mandatory Class Feat for nonfighters?
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We don't know much about the Monk remaster yet.
I think Reactive strike is in a good place, part of the freedom and mobility of the game is the limited use of it.
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They have the best AC progression in the game, the ability to tailor their save progression to their campaign, hands free for shields, and the mobility to kite. Survivability really shouldn't be a concern. People get more worried about their damage.
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These are some of my wishes for the class:
Some mobility feats should be merged/improved.
More feats that Encourage Stance Switching (Strike+Switch is an obvious route). Failing that, Stance Savant should be a class Feature. Fuse Stance should come earlier.
Deadly Strikes should be a much lower level feat or a class feature. Golden Body should be a Common Capstone Feat, even if it must be slightly nerfed.
The Elemental Ki feats feel like taxes, the Feat Line should be reworked to do more than just altering elements on Ki Strike.
The class should have a few more feats focusing on combat prowess, right now, they lean towards mobility a bit too much.
A Monk's Flurry of Blows should improve at higher levels. Like a Flurry Ranger and many other class' main shtick improves. Doesn't make sense that the core element of the class can be easily accessible in full, while the design for other class' archetypes normally offer limited versions.
I doubt there will be a lot of impactful changes, mostly name changes and slight adjustments. Probably a couple of merged feats. There just aren't a lot of problems with the Monk.
As for the "hopefully, but probably not" category, I have two things. One, Stunning Fist should become more reasonable. Two, I wouldn't mind the Monk getting a light bit of help in the damage department, since it's kinda meh and even what you have can be completely stolen by other classes.
I would like to see the monk's core attack feature flurry of blows get an upgrade. They should be the best at flurry of blows.
But the monk is such a hard class to balance due to its versatility. The monk is basically a control/defense martial who can do some damage.
They have so much on the chassis:
1. Flexible saves.
2. Legendary unarmored defense
3. 10 hit points per level
4. Master level Occult or Divine casting (this would be more valuable if they didn't have to build up a casting stat)
5. Easy to obtain ki spells.
6. Flexible fighting style, though Wolf Strike is the obvious top damage dealer.
7. Built in high mobility.
8. Flurry of Blows and increased movement providing great action economy.
Even though the monk isn't as good a damage dealer as the fighter, I find myself making quite a few because I like the versatility. The fighter is so boring and if you want to do the high damage, you pretty much have to do the two-hander reaction attack builds. A monk can usually do damage about on par with nearly every other type of fighter.
They usually do more damage than the champion and far more mobile than both the fighter and champion.
Besides Flurry of Blows scaling badly, the rest of the chassis scales pretty well.
The monk would be perfect for me with a Flurry of Blows upgrade just to preserve that class feature as best used by the monk. I can't think of much else to add to them as they are already a pretty amazing class.
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Monk is one of the few classes I feel like I'm missing out by not being human for the extra class feat. I see what monk can get and I want everything.
If anything changed I would like monastic weapons done differently, remove it. Put weapon training into the stances instead of making a single now you have all the monk weapons feat. That way each stance has weapons appropriate for that stance included in its balance calculation for what it provides and the unarmed attack and weapons usable in that stance can use all the stances features.
This would also mean you wont have to worry about making a weapon monk at all, all monks are weapon monks but depending on the stance, you use these ones instead of those ones.
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Yeah, Monastic Weaponry and related feats are something that I'm definitely expecting to see some work. That has to be the most complained about part of the Monk by a mile.
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I feel the Monk is already pretty amazing at survivability, and is tied with the Champion as the tankiest class in the game. I do agree, however, that Monastic Weaponry could do with a rework. Right now, the feat suffers from a few problems:
Despite this, there is a consistent underlying mechanical principle behind monk weapon selection, in that none of the weapons' damage dice go beyond a d8: rather than hand-pick monk weapons, I feel it would instead be a lot easier to redo the feat so that all weapons with a low enough damage die count as monk weapons. This would effectively give every player what they'd want out of monk weaponry, while avoiding the problem of orientalism entirely by having the selection criteria work purely on mechanical grounds rather than personal flavor judgment.
I really enjoy the monk. I think it's one of the best made martials in the game. Like others said, I'd just brush up some pain points like making the monk weapon feats or stunning strike a little more appealing.
Cleaning up Monastic Weaponry is just about all I can ask for.
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Yeah, my two big asks are:
1) Some sense in which monks are automatically better at FoB (at least from level 10 on) than people who got that ability from the 10th level Monk archetype feat. Just upgrade the ability at level 10 for monks or something.
2) Some sort of reliable damage rider for your strikes you can unlock via effort. The monk benefits a lot from things like Psi strikes or Heaven's Thunder than is really normally available from a class taking an archetype, so something in class that does this would be really nice. Like maybe give Ki Strike an option that is a 1 minute buff instead of a one round buff.
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They NEED to have FoB removed from MCA poachability, period.
They DESERVE to get Legendary Training in Unarmed Attacks even if it's at the detriment of something else.
They SHOULD have their mobility options dramatically improved or at least tweaked so that it's not made entirely moot and trivially replaced by a cheap Wand.
They WILL get some form of sub-class choice (we already more or less have this confirmed by the fact they're part of PC2 and the product page openly states that all Classes in that book will have distinct class paths for them) so that you'll begin to see different flavors of Monk right from level 1 and they'll stop being so build-a-bear lego type PCs like the Fighter is. I'm hoping this is done in a way that eliminates the early Feat Taxes that exist to enable specific flavors of Monk such as one for Stances, one for Monastic Weaponry, one for Ki Powers, and hopefully one based on Mobility/Athletics/Acrobatics.
You're right. Flurry of Blows probably going bye bye.
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I don't think removing FoB from the archetype is really a workable solution, since the rules that let you get it with the archetype still exist and are valid at a lot of tables. Plus you can get things like Stumbling Feint from the Martial Artist archetype that does absolutely nothing without FoB.
The better solution is to simply upgrade the Monk's FoB at the level other people are getting the level 1 version. Like the Monk's big weakness is damage, so how cool would being able to ignore MAP with FoB at high levels be?
I'd still rather see Agile Grace in the Monk class.
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I don't think removing FoB from the archetype is really a workable solution, since the rules that let you get it with the archetype still exist and are valid at a lot of tables. Plus you can get things like Stumbling Feint from the Martial Artist archetype that does absolutely nothing without FoB.
The better solution is to simply upgrade the Monk's FoB at the level other people are getting the level 1 version. Like the Monk's big weakness is damage, so how cool would being able to ignore MAP with FoB at high levels be?
Yeah, the Monk having an upgrade at level 10 is more preferable than simply removing FoB from the Archetype and cutting down a bunch of high level builds.
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I largely think they're in a good place. Our Monk is very happy in our home game, but that's at least in part due to the 3D Talespire Maps really rewarding their mobility and jumping ability. So I really expect them to just clean up language (FoB is definitely going away as the name, I think).
On the topic of Monks getting legendary progression for their unarmed, I don't think they need it because Legendary progression is Gunslinger/Fighter's thing and other things getting that does take away from their kit, but I could see it if it's just a capstone feature or a class archetype (we've only seen 2 IIRC, so it'd be fine if it takes away some of their existing kit to justify it).
As for what I'd like to see, I'd like to see the wording on Whirling Throw cleaned up. When our Monk first started to use it, there was a lot of debate on how it worked (Is it Forced Movement? Can't throw the baddie off the ledge then! Ah, but it doesn't use those specific terms and doesn't make sense that it can't do that, etc). So I'd just like to see it made clearer!
I’ve made my points elsewhere, but in summary:
1. Clean up Monastic Weaponry.
2. Make Shields less useful for Monks.
3. And the most personal one: I think Styles should be baked into the class. Style dancing from level 1 onwards would allow the class to be more interesting, put versatility into the limelight, and move away from the Fighter But Different feel the class has right now.
I am firmly in the remove FoB from multiclass camp. it allows to too much cheese at mid levels and if feels like it lets other classes step on the Monk's toes a bit too much.
I can't edit my last post so I wanted to put a link of the older thread here.
We do have Michael Sayre there saying there's no chance they'll make Monks Legendary at Unarmed though.
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2. Make Shields less useful for Monks.
There are a lot of parry weapons that have the monk trait, and traditionally in weapon fights in martial arts cinema there is a lot of blocking. I wonder if there isn't a way to make monks really effective with parry weapons (like bump the +1 to a +2), that would resolve the problem of "mechanically it makes sense for the monk to raise a shield since they likely have a free hand and probably have a spare action, but it's weird thematically."
Like Swashbucklers get to double the buckler AC bonus with a feat.
2. Make Shields less useful for Monks.There are a lot of parry weapons that have the monk trait, and traditionally in weapon fights in martial arts cinema there is a lot of blocking. I wonder if there isn't a way to make monks really effective with parry weapons (like bump the +1 to a +2), that would resolve the problem of "mechanically it makes sense for the monk to raise a shield since they likely have a free hand and probably have a spare action, but it's weird thematically."
Like Swashbucklers get to double the buckler AC bonus with a feat.
My favorite solution: add other alternatives to Shield Block as General Feats.
The problem is not Shield Block being busted, it's that it has a monopoly in what it does.
Adding a General Feat that promote 1H/Unarmed parries without a shield would be great. Right now, there's few incentives to NOT use a Shield.
I generally agree with most people here. Except from remove FoB from Archetype. This won't help anything and anyone in the game in the end.
1. IMO, monks deserve a bit more offensive power (in form or hit or dmg) to meet the fantasy of powerful monks that dominates the martial arts. But in some form this is now reach a little with the KI and new refocus rule. But have a non-focus would be interesting too.
2. Make Shields less useful for Monks or more easily the defensive feats more powerful than shields.
3. Make monks weapon competitive with unarmed strikes. Maybe giving more stances or whatever.
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I would like "One-Inch Punch" and similar single-Strike alternatives to be options that replace Flurry of Blows. I find it hard to warrant taking those options when Flurry of Blows is so good (and free), yet sometimes those options fit the PC's theme better.
To make a Monk w/ Legendary Unarmed you have to play a Fighter.
In essence you're exchanging your mobility and delaying your development (which of course is a serious issue in shorter campaigns). I've made several, but I always find it hard not to take advantage of the perks of a Fighter, which steers them away from mirroring a Monk. I don't think we'll see it on an actual Monk because it'd have to give up more than just AC defense since offense is valued more.
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I hope Monastic Weaponry either becomes something that monks have innately or, in the case they want to keep it as a feat for some reason, that it also gives you trained proficiency in advanced monk weapons (I mean, they IMO deserve it).
Brawling Focus being a feat and not something you get naturally at 5th level is really weird for a martial class. Even the "half-martials" have baked in critical specialization and monks that are literally limited to just unarmed attacks don't for some reason.
Ki Blast needs a buff like, right now. The fact that a cleric can fulfill the hadouken / kamehameha flavor much better with Inner Radiance Torrent is really funny to me.
Someone earlier mentioned that it is very likely that Flurry of Blows is going to be renamed. I don't know why but "Fist Barrage" or "Barrage Strike" sound fitting to me. Also someone mentioned that Michael Sayre already confirmed monks aren't going to be getting legendary on unarmed attacks, which is IMO a lost opportunity since getting legendary on both unarmed and unarmored could have simbolized reaching physical perfection. They didn't even need to give them expert at the beggining if they didn't want it, but rather give them legendary at 19th level alongside unarmored kinda like how fighters get legendar with their non-weapon group weapons.
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I doubt the feat will go away but I DO expect there will be a Monk Weapon focused Classpath that you can choose at first level that provides what the Feat does as well as giving you some other special advantage when wielding Monk Weapons such as automatic Crit Spe benefits or, better yet, allowing you to transfer any eligible Runes from whatever Handwraps you're wearing to any Monk Weapon you wield so that your coin purse isn't so heavily taxed trying to maintain both your Handwraps which is essentially a must-buy for EVERY monk on top of Runes to keep the Weapon up to snuff.
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One thing that gives me pause is that the solicitation for Player Core 2 says "Eight fully detailed classes, including the alchemist, barbarian, champion, investigator, monk, oracle, sorcerer, and swashbuckler, each containing multiple character paths."
Coming out of the Playtest the Monk was touted as being one of the two classes without a subclass, allowing a sort of "freeform way to build monks" but for my money monks always felt about a feat low at the starting levels. The monk is sort of a clearinghouse for wuxia/chanbara/anime tropes, so I can see the "freeform" approach as a way to avoid trying to come up with a spanning set for said tropes. But I wonder if they're going to try in the remaster.
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I wish the monks speed boost was an untyped bonus instead of a status bonus. It kinda annoys me that you can use longstrider on a fighter to make them just as fast as a monk, but you can't use longstrider to make the monk even faster.
I'm kind of not a huge fan of class mechanics being status bonuses in general. Always feels weird to have a class that has a personal bonus to something baked into their class features that might not exist if you have access to certain other resources or classes.
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My guess is they will take the main three concepts players use now and make them 3 balanced paths for monk.
Weapon master
Ki master
Martial arts master
You know if they did that they could have eqch stance provide a base benefit then a path specific additional benefit.
So here you might have three different monks all in the same stance but fighting differently.
Allow wis as a key stat option for the ki monk
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not sure how paizo plan to fix monk
make fob only count as one map might work
still wouldn't fix the high level feat pool problem
Fix implies it's broken somehow, which isn't. The class is great and this thread is pretty much just finding ways to further refine the class and touch up some of its less good aspects.
Even FoB being accessible at level 10 is pretty much just a non-issue for the Monk itself. No one will even stop playing a Monk in favor of another martial class with FoB. It's just weird that its whole shtick is easily accessible,when others are not, that's all.
Just saying this to keep things clear.
not sure how paizo plan to fix monk
make fob only count as one map might work
still wouldn't fix the high level feat pool problem
Fix implies it's broken somehow, which isn't. The class is great and this thread is pretty much just finding ways to further refine the class and touch up some of its less good aspects.
Even FoB being accessible at level 10 is pretty much just a non-issue for the Monk itself. No one will even stop playing a Monk in favor of another martial class with FoB. It's just weird that its whole shtick is easily accessible,when others are not, that's all.
Just saying this to keep things clear.
Agreed, yeah. Never thought of Flurry being poachable as a big deal since it’s limited to unarmed, although now I imagine an animal barbarian looking at tht eagerly …
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not sure how paizo plan to fix monk
make fob only count as one map might work
still wouldn't fix the high level feat pool problem
Too many good high level feats?
not sure how paizo plan to fix monk
make fob only count as one map might work
still wouldn't fix the high level feat pool problem
Fix implies it's broken somehow, which isn't. The class is great and this thread is pretty much just finding ways to further refine the class and touch up some of its less good aspects.
Even FoB being accessible at level 10 is pretty much just a non-issue for the Monk itself. No one will even stop playing a Monk in favor of another martial class with FoB. It's just weird that its whole shtick is easily accessible,when others are not, that's all.
Just saying this to keep things clear.
I think several arguments have been put here as to why things are broken and need fixing.
I would think you should at least explain your criteria for things being "great" and why that is the case here.
The Monk has a lot of things going for them, but I feel most of them are about the strength of 2E's system rather than the class itself.
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not sure how paizo plan to fix monk
make fob only count as one map might work
still wouldn't fix the high level feat pool problem
I think thats theres a point about these things.
I agree the monk isn't broken but there's space to enhancements and there's some criticisms IMO.
I think that FoB could have some improvement feat or feature. Merged MAP could be a good idea for a high level feat/feature.
I also understand the point about "high level feat pool problem". In general Ki Monk have a good selection of high level feats but the same could be said about Stances. Basically we have a selection of vertical power improvement feats to improve some stances and thats it. Things like Master of Many Styles is just a free-action beginning of the turn stance with misleading name, in practice you still locked to not change stances more than once per round what's limits this too much, also Fuse Stance is level 20 basically making any idea of invest into 2 different stances only useful in the very end of some games.
Some other high-level feats like One-Millimeter Punch its a meme. A level 16 feat that requires another feat and its specific activity to just push the target 5-feet. Its too expensive and too situational.
Also we have the strange situation of some non-level 1 Stances, specially the level 8 ones. Where you need to play with another Stance from levels 1-7, or use Monk Weapons or dont use a stance at all (what usually means that you are limited to a small number os Ki feats) and then when you take the level 8 stance that you want you need to beg to your GM to give you some downtime to retrain or you risk to become if a set of useless feats.
These points was discussed in other monk post in the past. But yes, if you are not a Ki Monk if may fell like theres a lack of good feat options to select.
I also understand the point about "high level feat pool problem". In general Ki Monk have a good selection of high level feats but the same could be said about Stances. Basically we have a selection of vertical power improvement feats to improve some stances and thats it. Things like Master of Many Styles is just a free-action beginning of the turn stance with misleading name, in practice you still locked to not change stances more than once per round what's limits this too much, also Fuse Stance is level 20 basically making any idea of invest into 2 different stances only useful in the very end of some games.I think Fuse Stance should be a lower level feat[12, 14 or 16], while a reworked Master of Many Style could work as a Capstone. But instead of Switching stance at the top of the round, they can do it after doing one action. If you have Fuse Stance, you get to pick two at a time or some stuff like that.
The feats should also grant a Stance Feat as a bonus. Even if gated to a Level 1 Stance Feat.
Since fighters now have access to Master of Many Styles (I don't recall the actual new name for that feat in the Remaster) I wouldn't be surprised that it at least became an option at like 10 level or so for monks, with Fuse Stance (hopefully) becoming a 16 level feat now.
FoB needs to upgrade into "Make two unarmed Strikes, each using your current multiple attack penalty" at some point as well since that would not only prevent non-monks to poach FoB and be better with it than monks, though I hope this is an automatic upgrade monks get and not something they need to spend a feat on, though I wouldn't be against it necessarily (9th level for a feature and 10th level for a feat would be fine IMO).
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I was always genuinely confused why feats that make it easier to swap stances were such high level feats.
Like the Monk's *thing* is "action economy" so you could put something like Stance Savant or Master of Many Styles at much lower levels, because these are not very exciting high level feats and by the time you get to 16th level you've probably learned how to rely on one style for most fights.
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If they do some kind of paths for monk, I wouldn't mind seeing an offensive and defensive path for monks. The offensive path gets Legendary Unarmed Attack but only Master Unarmored defense. The defensive path reverses that like the current monk.
Some people want a monk that does higher damage.
Some folks like a defensive control type of monk.
If they create paths for the monk, that would be what I'd like to see.
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I don't think they are going to add subclasses to the monk because that would be pretty much a rework of the class and we know the monk isn't on the list of classes that are getting a rework in the remaster.
Hell, if PC1 is proof of anything, is that if the class isn't getting a rework they aren't going to change much of it. The ranger is pretty much unchanged, and with the exception of probably the rogue most classes only received changes to their feats. They aren't going to make fundamental changes to the monk.
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Pretty terrible they didn't make Hunt Prey work better on the ranger.
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IMO the worst thing is that they left outwit as is. They could have literally baked outwit into Hunt Prey and most people wouldn't have noticed.
Also, do we know because only the strongest rogue subclasses were buffed while the weaker ones were left as is?