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I figure it would be good to have one super thread for talking about changes or non-changes to spells in the remastered player core book (I finally got mine!!) feel free to post your own spell observations here as well. I will keep adding stuff here as I read the spells more closely.
Acid arrow and polar ray join shocking grasp as spells that are no more, replaced by saving throw targeting spells that are a little different. Acid grab’s speed reduction while taking persistent damage is interesting. It is starting to look like item bonuses to spell attack roll spells might be possible in the future of the game as single target high-damage spell slot spells that target AC don’t exist in the arcane or primal traditions anymore? This is just an initial thought, I haven’t deep dived it.
No love for control water. The exact same verbiage as pre-remastered leaves this spell entirely up to GM arbitration with vague guidance void of clear rules language for things like “raise the water level in an area.” It is left kinda feeling like an NPC only spell to me, which is unfortunate.
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For acid grip I am curious if the "full" wording means that the persistent damage is always maximum on a crit. fail. It's not clear why the word is there otherwise.
Critical Failure The creature takes double damage and full persistent damage, and the claw moves it up to 20 feet in a direction of your choice.
I like the new spell and as a user of the old acid arrow at times glad I have more options for acid fun now.
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For acid grip I am curious if the "full" wording means that the persistent damage is always maximum on a crit. fail. It's not clear why the word is there otherwise.
Critical Failure The creature takes double damage and full persistent damage, and the claw moves it up to 20 feet in a direction of your choice.I like the new spell and as a user of the old acid arrow at times glad I have more options for acid fun now.
I'd guess they might have meant 'The creature takes double direct damage and fullnormal persistent damage' but that is a complete guess on my part...
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A few more thoughts on some the spells I like persoanally:
Disjunction -> Detonate Magic : Upgrade. Can target effects again. Great, plus some damage on top. Sucks still no return to its AoE dispel effect but probably a balance consideration.
Execute -> Finger of Death & Implosion: for legacy reasons to stop my brain twitching going to swap Implosion to Divine/Occult and Execute to Arcane/Primal. Why they flip flopped these two between arcane and divine when they made 2e idk maybe the fact it's void/vitality, but I'm personally switching it.
Execute is more versatile though with the positive(vitality) damage choice I like that.
Flaming Sphere -> Floating Flame: Upgrade, none of that "Creatures that succeed at their save take no damage (instead of half)" and can hit multiple creature a turn now making up for a shorter move distance. May have done this RAI but the text of the original didn't seem to hint at that. Awesome!
Sure Footing: Bad name for this consolidated condition removal spell thought it was Freedom of Movement. Took me a bit to realize what it really was due to that. But hey 3/4 traditions get it so that's nice.
Polar ray -> Arctic Rift: Line: Meh; Fort: Ugh; Slowed and no drained: makes since for an AoE. Better only for the fact that it is an AoE and spell attacks are quite sub-par. Though I'll always have soft spot for Polar Ray as one of the derivatives of Otiluke's Freezing Sphere one of my all time favorites spells across editions.
Since you can still use the old spell I like the idea of, probably a non-bo honestly, using Polar Ray to apply the drained penalty on one target then AoE them and some mooks with the new spell right after with a cold focused caster. Fun idea at least.
No love for control water. The exact same verbiage as pre-remastered leaves this spell entirely up to GM arbitration with vague guidance void of clear rules language for things like “raise the water level in an area.” It is left kinda feeling like an NPC only spell to me, which is unfortunate.
Did you see the Day 1 errata for control water?
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Blood Vendetta is interesting. At the moment, I think it’s the only spell that does not have either the concentrate or manipulate traits. It only has the curse trait so it’s not subtle either. Does that mean it requires no incantation or gestures but it will still have obvious sensory manifestations like all spells?
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Disguise magic is really well done. This is a spell that you don’t need to heighten to be useful at higher level because it is a disbelieve check against your spell DC and not a counteract check, so it will be a good low rank spell for intrigue/spy campaigns.
It is starting to look like item bonuses to spell attack roll spells might be possible in the future of the game as single target high-damage spell slot spells that target AC don’t exist in the arcane or primal traditions anymore? This is just an initial thought, I haven’t deep dived it.
Disregarding cantrips and focus spells (which add a significant number), there are only five spell attacks in Player Core at all (though there are a few spells that create things that use your spell attack modifier like spiritual guardian or illusory creature).
Blazing bolt (scorching ray) is arcane/primal along with hydraulic push. Holy light is divine/primal, chilling darkness is divine only and disintegrate is arcane only.
Semi-related, hydraulic push kept its bad crit scaling from the CRB.
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I know it's been stated elsewhere, but both bless and bane got a good boost with increased initial radius (10 and 15 feet) and concentration increases size by 10 ft not 5.
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It is starting to look like item bonuses to spell attack roll spells might be possible in the future of the game as single target high-damage spell slot spells that target AC don’t exist in the arcane or primal traditions anymore? This is just an initial thought, I haven’t deep dived it.Disregarding cantrips and focus spells (which add a significant number), there are only five spell attacks in Player Core at all (though there are a few spells that create things that use your spell attack modifier like spiritual guardian or illusory creature).
Blazing bolt (scorching ray) is arcane/primal along with hydraulic push. Holy light is divine/primal, chilling darkness is divine only and disintegrate is arcane only.
Semi-related, hydraulic push kept its bad crit scaling from the CRB.
I haven’t deep dived the focus spells, but if there are no spell slot spells on the arcane or occult spell list that can just do double damage on a crit, without another roll being involved, that is a massive shift in how dangerous sure strike or potential item bonuses are to spell attack roll spells.
At the moment, I think it’s the only spell that does not have either the concentrate or manipulate traits.Also ranger's Gravity weapon and Heal Companion.
Nice catch. I completely skipped focus spells.
It is starting to look like item bonuses to spell attack roll spells might be possible in the future of the game as single target high-damage spell slot spells that target AC don’t exist in the arcane or primal traditions anymore? This is just an initial thought, I haven’t deep dived it.Disregarding cantrips and focus spells (which add a significant number), there are only five spell attacks in Player Core at all (though there are a few spells that create things that use your spell attack modifier like spiritual guardian or illusory creature).
Blazing bolt (scorching ray) is arcane/primal along with hydraulic push. Holy light is divine/primal, chilling darkness is divine only and disintegrate is arcane only.
Semi-related, hydraulic push kept its bad crit scaling from the CRB.
Considering that the Magus and archetypes like the eldritch Archer are coming to the pc2, that book will probably be stuffed with Attack roll spells
It's also kinda fitting, since the pc1 is appearently filled with the beginner friendlier options
Considering that the Magus and archetypes like the eldritch Archer are coming to the pc2
Magus is not in PC2. And we don't know yet which of the old archetypes will make the cut, so Eldtritch Archer may or may not be in there.
I see this as a win. All but forces magi to get IW or a cleric focus spell so that their slots can be spent on something more useful.
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Pour one out for Plant Form.
It lost the Shambler battle form option. It only has Arboreal and Flytrap now.
Also, I know this was in the preview but Entangling Flora (previously Entangle) not requiring existing plants or fungi is much appreciated. It's now great for setting up effects that do need existing plants or fungi like Nature's Reprisal.
So I am in the process of building 7 wizards, each from a different school, using only options from the player core 1 and trying to avoid any multi-classing, to get the best possible feel for the combination of feats, focus spells, and remastered core spells.
My first is a Ars Grammatica wizard, which made me realize that repulsion works in almost exact opposition to the schools primary focus spell. It is not exactly an impossible scenario to imagine using both in the same encounter, but it makes it a pretty awkward choice at rank 6 when Dominate, Scrying, Wall of Force or Truesight were also available options.
Sure strike is really not the spell that true strike was for the arcane list anymore. It has fallen off so hard, that it is almost sitting as a trap option for filling level 1 spell slots unless you have a strong fatal/deadly weapon attack, or you are specifically a civic wizard planning on casting a lot of hydraulic pushes and disintegrates.
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Enfeeble not having the necromancy trait anymore feels like it is suddenly going to be devastating against undead that often have lower fortitude saves.
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Sure strike is really not the spell that true strike was for the arcane list anymore. It has fallen off so hard, that it is almost sitting as a trap option for filling level 1 spell slots unless you have a strong fatal/deadly weapon attack, or you are specifically a civic wizard planning on casting a lot of hydraulic pushes and disintegrates.Why have it fallen? It's exactly the same. Spell attack spells are still here too. Even the awesome simple weapons are fully available now.
Enfeeble not having the necromancy trait anymore feels like it is suddenly going to be devastating against undead that often have lower fortitude saves.How does this change anything? I see that not being spell attack changed things (like before if you hit, you got a minute of effect, which isn't true now). I don't see how necromancy bit matters.
There are no strong spell attack roll spell slot spells in the remastered player core 1, not compared to pre-remastered. At least none that true strike massively improves their DPR. All the old classics lost their spell attack rolls.
As far as enfeeble, it wasn’t super common, but there were definitely creatures immune to necromancy spells outright. Not needing a spell attack and not having blanket immunities makes enfeeble a great low level spell
Sure Strike is for Gouging Claw now.
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I posted about this before but Protection from X is now Protection, and it gives a non-conditional +1 status bonus to AC and all saves. You can upcast it to 3rd level to scotch-tape your own Circle of Protection, too, which is an incredible defensive boon to any party with a Cleric.
And unlike Bless, you get to select the target of the emanation as well. It doesn't obsolete Heroism or anything, but I'd be hard-pressed to use it over the killer combo that is Bless + Level 3 Protection, provided you have at least one round to get ready for combat (or have other party members with Bless).
There are no strong spell attack roll spell slot spells in the remastered player core 1, not compared to pre-remastered. At least none that true strike massively improves their DPR. All the old classics lost their spell attack rolls.
As far as enfeeble, it wasn’t super common, but there were definitely creatures immune to necromancy spells outright. Not needing a spell attack and not having blanket immunities makes enfeeble a great low level spell
While I don't see that "All the old classics lost their spell attack rolls", ok.
But undead definitely aren't immune to necromancy as a whole. Necromancy immunity really existed, but for constructs, not undead. And yes, unless they change something in construct immunities (like including enfeebled in the list) Enfeeble would work on constructs now. Not sure it's such a big deal though.
Shocking grasp, acid arrow, polar ray all lost spell attack rolls. Most players will be thrilled about this, but there is no hard hitting single target spell attack roll spell that will do double damage on a critical hit, like there was before. Yes, folks will keep horizon thunder sphere for the most part so it isn’t totally gone, but it looks headed that way for now. This makes sure strike much more circumstantial than it was even before, when you still maybe only wanted 1 or 2 castings of it if you were a wizard. Sure strike would be a bad spell to add to the battle mage school, for example. You never really want to use it.
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Shocking grasp, acid arrow, polar ray all lost spell attack rolls.There are no strong spell attack roll spell slot spells in the remastered player core 1, not compared to pre-remastered. At least none that true strike massively improves their DPR. All the old classics lost their spell attack rolls.
As far as enfeeble, it wasn’t super common, but there were definitely creatures immune to necromancy spells outright. Not needing a spell attack and not having blanket immunities makes enfeeble a great low level spell
While I don't see that "All the old classics lost their spell attack rolls", ok.
But undead definitely aren't immune to necromancy as a whole. Necromancy immunity really existed, but for constructs, not undead. And yes, unless they change something in construct immunities (like including enfeebled in the list) Enfeeble would work on constructs now. Not sure it's such a big deal though.
None of these spells lost anything. New spells of the same level and in part same elemental damage types but also with wholly different mechanics and names were introduced.
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None of these spells lost anything. New spells of the same level and in part same elemental damage types but also with wholly different mechanics and names were introduced.Shocking grasp, acid arrow, polar ray all lost spell attack rolls.There are no strong spell attack roll spell slot spells in the remastered player core 1, not compared to pre-remastered. At least none that true strike massively improves their DPR. All the old classics lost their spell attack rolls.
As far as enfeeble, it wasn’t super common, but there were definitely creatures immune to necromancy spells outright. Not needing a spell attack and not having blanket immunities makes enfeeble a great low level spell
While I don't see that "All the old classics lost their spell attack rolls", ok.
But undead definitely aren't immune to necromancy as a whole. Necromancy immunity really existed, but for constructs, not undead. And yes, unless they change something in construct immunities (like including enfeebled in the list) Enfeeble would work on constructs now. Not sure it's such a big deal though.
I see, that is totally fair and at my tables I too am fine with people using old content. My comment is more directed at the fact that people have been talking about things like wishing the school of battle magic included sure strike as a first level spell, but it makes sense not too when the school is going to include 0 spells to use it with, and the future design of spells seems to be moving away from including the kind of staples the game had previously.
Well, at least one dev considers thunderstrike to be a straight replacement for shocking grasp.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were all officially phased out after pc2 and another errata pass or two.
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One thing to keep in mind is that the non remastered spells will gradually vanish from the game in a totally organic process.
New players will likely not even realize that they exist. Oh, they'll be able to find them on AoN if they know to search but why would they bother?
And I certainly expect a lot of NEW campaigns (whether with old or new players) to specify something like "Use Remastered only spells. If there is a particular spell you REALLY want talk to me and I may allow it".
A year or two from now at most tables it might well be "synesthesia Who?"
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see PFS adopting that kind of rule next year. It could easily do so by just removing Advanced Players Guide and Core Rulebook from sanctioned sources (or only allowing in specified elements) while grandfathering in access for played characters who already have the spell in their spell book/list of known spells.
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Removed post for disparaging a Paizo staff member.
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I posted about this before but Protection from X is now Protection, and it gives a non-conditional +1 status bonus to AC and all saves. You can upcast it to 3rd level to scotch-tape your own Circle of Protection, too, which is an incredible defensive boon to any party with a Cleric.
And unlike Bless, you get to select the target of the emanation as well. It doesn't obsolete Heroism or anything, but I'd be hard-pressed to use it over the killer combo that is Bless + Level 3 Protection, provided you have at least one round to get ready for combat (or have other party members with Bless).
Amusingly, the Protection spell isn't available through a Staff of Protection. :)
I've been thinking about options for this spell since reading your earlier post on it. It's fun that a Precise Discipline Psychic can stack the benefits of Protection (status), Mystic Armor (item), and Calculate Threats (circumstance).
Protection + Drakeheart Mutagen is a nice combo.
I can't tell if it would make sense to have new staves for each of the schools of wizardry, or if the redundancy of having a staff with spells you will already have one of would be nonsense.
What would be cool though is for schools of magic to start to have a telltale influence of the construction of magic items, since some of them will pretty obviously have outsized influence on the magic economy. Like civic wizards have to be crafting a lot of stuff right? And I imagine Ars Grammatica wizards are going to scribing a lot of scrolls and runes too. I totally see how that would be a tough project for the core books, but it is a very good place for expansion.
A big change in my opinion is the new go to spell for debuff which is Revealing Light. Available to every traditions and better than Slow, what else could we ask?
Only drawback: We will see it a lot (like always).
What makes you feel that AoE dazzle is better than single target (and later AoE) -1 action? I fully agree that it's good, and you can just layer both of them with the local resentment witch, but I'd still take direct action loss in most scenarios.
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What makes you feel that AoE dazzle is better than single target (and later AoE) -1 action? I fully agree that it's good, and you can just layer both of them with the local resentment witch, but I'd still take direct action loss in most scenarios.
Revealing Light is one level lower, has better range, targets a better save, affects multiple targets, lasts longer on a success and on top of it reduce Hidden/Concealed Conditions.
Also, Dazzled is nearly as good as Slowed 1, you need specific conditions for Slowed 1 to be more than just a lost third action.There are situations where Slow is better, it isn't overshadowed by Revealing Light. But as a bread and butter debuff spell, Revealing Light will replace Slow (Slow has actually never really been a bread and butter debuff due to all its limitations).
Also, I was speaking about Slow 3, comparing a level 6 spell and a level 2 one is hardly relevant.
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Hmm. I don't think it's particularly hard to get more value from slow, but I see where you're coming from. It's definitely nice to have another worthwhile spell and doubly nice for divine to not be left out for once.
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... It is starting to look like item bonuses to spell attack roll spells might be possible in the future of the game as single target high-damage spell slot spells that target AC don’t exist in the arcane or primal traditions anymore.
I think a good way to do it going forward for spell attacks is a two tiered Defense like Disintegrate, if they add item bonus to Spell Attacks.
Most non-cantrip spell attacks changed to a two tiered Defense, e.g. AC and [save], with the caveat of "if you critically hit, the target gets a result one degree of success worse than the outcome of its [relevant] Save."
Another change would to remove the basic save from any new spell attacks that go this route to avoid critical successes on a any spell attack that actually hits AC being no damage at all. This way at least some small damage is dealt on a successful hit so it is not so punishing.
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Two-tiered defense was removed from Ray of Enfeeblement => Enfeeble. I don't think the devs are interested in adding new spells with that.
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I don't think two-tiered defenses end up feeling very good in practice. The most memorable part about Disintegrate for my players is how often they lose the spell.
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Two-tiered defense was removed from Ray of Enfeeblement => Enfeeble. I don't think the devs are interested in adding new spells with that.
Quite likely, yeah. Just a thought if they add more spell attacks and give us an item bonus at some point.
I don't think two-tiered defenses end up feeling very good in practice. The most memorable part about Disintegrate for my players is how often they lose the spell.
I've got lucky with it myself, but yes they are awful. That's why if you did go this route (item bonus to spell attacks etc) you would likely not want it have a basic save on them as well like Disintegrate.
Just be easier to make all spell attacks like enfeeble and change it to a save. Just make Disintegrate a Fort save and the Crit Success is a "miss" with the beam. Heck until 3e the only "spell attack" I can think of is Acid Arrow. Stuff like Disintegrate and Polar Ray where still saves.