Faemeister's page

Edit: I should also mention that this isn't me expressly claiming I've got an AI-dar or anything, though; like I'm unsure if I'd have drawn the connection if this thread wasn't expressly about AI, and if I hadn't been reading your posts for some time and noticed the discrepancy.

It's funny, I got the exact same impression for those same reasons. I thought RD might have just done it for the lulz.

Since DC is what determines the distance of your jump and both long/high jump DCs are the same with Sudden Leap, I think using the rules for three-dimensional combat (under Special Circumstance movement rules) makes the most sense:

As with ground-based movement, moving diagonally up or down in 3-D space requires counting every other diagonal as 10 feet.

Yeah, like people above are saying you really ought to get some CON. I usually recommend 14 for frontline characters, but on a defender especially I'd treat 14 as the bare minimum. You can compensate to some extent with feats like Toughness (which you'd more than likely be getting regardless of CON) and items like a Belt of Good Health, but there really is no replacing a decent Constitution score. You'll definitely feel the difference come levels 3 and beyond.

What I'd be extremely wary about is using Everstand Stance as-is: that cool shield you're holding in both hands is, at the same time, your weapon and your first line of defense. If you use Shield Block a bunch it's gonna break eventually, which is fine early on when you can carry spares, but at some point your shield's gonna have all these runes on it as part of the game's expected weapon progression and it's gonna get a lot harder to sink money into other shields (unless you're using the ABP variant rule). I'd be really careful about Everstand Stance for this reason, though a low investment fix for this problem could be to use your own body to attack with Handwraps of Mighty Blows.

You see, if you get fired instead of quitting they gotta give you your settlement pay for years of service, a fact that Mammon's church is no doubt aware of...

The Magus in my party keeps rending things apart with both regular and amped TKP, and even though they invested into INT they don't seem to particularly mind the changes. It's a lot of dice now so it's swingier for sure, but we always valued the B/P/S coverage higher than a few points of damage anyway. If anything, my uneducated guess would be that Magi that didn't invest heavily into INT might be a bit better off now.

gesalt wrote:

It's a common error but it really does rip just about all the value out of the 3 action version, heal or harm.

I still don't think harm font is worth much outside of a negative healing party though. On a more interesting note though, cast down no longer has the font as a prerequisite so anyone with access to the spell can dip into cleric for it. Or heck, just keep a few archetype harm slots for free KDs. Level 12 off the archetype is regrettable, but it's an option, if nothing else.

So is the general consensus that it's best with Cast Down? Or can you do things with the 1-action version or 3-action AoE version?

Yeah, Cast Down is for sure the harm font's highlight on a cloistered Cleric. I'm in a level 8 party with a harm font Cleric of Groetus/Pharasma and every time that feat gets used on something not immume to the prone condition it feels like watching a demon get one-tapped by the super shotgun in Doom. It's absurdly powerful and most things have no hope of resisting it unless they're much higher level or roll a 20. It's nasty in a party with AoO users.

He had Directed Channel for a while but never used it. For Heal, that feat is kind of sad because cones don't include the caster as opposed to emanations, and its other use case of sniping several enemies with Harm without hitting the party is kind of moot in an undead-heavy campaign. He retrained it into Versatile Font, and has been vastly enjoying the increased utility.

Heal and Harm are simply leagues apart in potency and I don't think most people play in optimized parties where everyone has negative healing, so it's not like it's particularly close either.

I see, well, if you have access to a constant supply of cheetah elixirs then it sounds like a good idea. Looking at it another way, you were already using plate anyways so with the elixir your speed is 5 higher than it would be otherwise; That's a much, MUCH better situation than gaving an effective 5ft speed reduction, so I don't think it will kill you like it could a lower level character.

The activation on the plate is good, a permanent circumstance bonus stacks with AC from spells and whatnot. You're a divine caster so you might have that covered, but on the item side something like a Warding Statuette or a Cassisian Helmet would work well with the plate.

On the subject of Intimidation item bonuses, your reasoning for the Gown seems good as well. Something I'm fond of is using a Demon Mask and using the activation on myself at the start of the day in order to gain a guaranteed Bravery Baldric charge at least once per day. People give you some weird looks, but it's a fun little combo and it's just a cool idea in general, like using the mask as part of a battle ritual.
It might not interest a caster very much since the spells on the baldrics are low level, but as far as I know Oracle doesn't get innate access to Haste (then again, it's a third level spell so a scroll costs like 30gp... Your mileage will probably vary)

People don't often talk about itemization very much and I come at it from the perspective of someone more used to martials, so sorry in advance if these completely miss the mark.

I posted about this before but Protection from X is now Protection, and it gives a non-conditional +1 status bonus to AC and all saves. You can upcast it to 3rd level to scotch-tape your own Circle of Protection, too, which is an incredible defensive boon to any party with a Cleric.
And unlike Bless, you get to select the target of the emanation as well. It doesn't obsolete Heroism or anything, but I'd be hard-pressed to use it over the killer combo that is Bless + Level 3 Protection, provided you have at least one round to get ready for combat (or have other party members with Bless).

What level are you, for reference?

Just my two cents: having an alchemist in the party is always good, if you like to use mutagens you should consider a Collar of the Shifting Spider to save yourself time in combat, especially if you don't usually keep a hand free.

I wouldn't ever wear bastion plate in melee unless it were a high level game and I had a surplus of speed, but that one depends on how fast you are: that thing's -10 speed reduction is a death trap otherwise. Bastion of the Inheritor is a bit better since the activation is legitimately good and it also doubles as a skill bonus item, freeing up an investment slot. I'd sooner just pick up a floating shield (same bonus but only once per day) and get a slot for a property rune, but if you can handle the speed loss somehow (e.g., Unburdened Iron, Longstrider, etc) then it could be worth it.

Similar deal for the Ash Gown, condensing investment slots is good, provided it's items you cared about using in the first place... ignoring difficult terrain can come in clutch, but the fire damage is sort of whatever since it allows a save. An alternative would be the Crown of the Fire Eater: also gets you fire resistance, and the +30 (+50 on the greater version) effective HP can be important for a battle-oriented character, especially with fire being common.

I see you're focused on bettering your Charisma skill bonuses. If I may suggest something else, a Jug of Fond Remembrance gives you circumstance bonuses to Diplomacy which fully stack with those from item bonuses. It's also cheap as hell and takes no investment. As for item bonuses to Diplomacy, if you don't get the bastion plate you could also get a Messenger's Ring or even coast with the much cheapera Diplomat's Badge, which is a +1 usually but can go up to +2 provided you can make the (admittedly low) DC 20 Recall Knowledge check reliably.

You have a lot of gold so you're not exactly limited in options, but it can be hard to allocate money efficiently. What I do myself is mixing and matching expensive, must-have gear with other lower level/budget options that can still keep up in usefulness.

Leg's see, archetypes that offer notable maneuver support off the top of my head...

There's the ones that already got mentioned like Duelist and Wrestler. Mauler also kicks ass for shoving nerds around and making them eat dirt (Hammer Quake is disgusting), and believe it or not, Zombie has several feats that work with grabbing and tripping too.

No idea about the dual class/gestalt variant, but I think gesalt makes a good point about Fighter being a good base class since they have a ton of feats for what you want and Press abilities become reliable if you play your cards right. On top of that, they get access to some exclusive options that build upon what other maneuvers do already (Dazing Blow comes to mind as a particularly nasty follow-up to a grab, for example). Hell, they even had access to the new Reposition maneuver through attacks before the Remaster, via feats like Guiding Riposte/Finish/Repositioning Assault, among a few others. The important part is to either keep a hand free, use a weapon with your most used maneuver's trait, or take feats that let you use those actions without having a hand free.

A few scattered thoughts, but applying the clarified rules without making hard fights more lethal would definitely involve some getting used to from the players at the table, which could be tricky in ongoing campaigns where things like builds, party synergies, and access to competent healing might be set in stone and thus hard to change.

It feels like with how dangerous getting up after going down can be, the game effectively incentivizes characters that can operate at near-full effectiveness while at range, to the detriment of melee-oriented characters (including most Barbarians and all those who dumped DEX). Having powerful, consistent ways to mess with enemies' actions is more important now, conversely.

By the way, how do you guys feel about fast healing now? Some sources of it, like Witch's Life Boost, scale well enough to still be useful, especially since they help you avoid dropping to 0 in the first place. But some other things like mutagens could turn you into a liability if they heal you up from the floor, again, unless you have access to strong in-combat healing.
It goes back to what some people were arguing for at the start, that it might become tactically sounder to just let your dying ally stabilize on their own while you try to close the fight - if you spend your turn trying to heal them and then they have to spend theirs getting away from the danger (and the action!), then neither of you used your actions to help stabilize the fight or tip the scales in your favor. I can't help but think this has the potential to run counter to the way the game is set to be played, with a heavy emphasis on teamwork and party coordination.

Those are the impressions I've gotten so far after one session at level 7, at least...

The hatchet isn't finesse but it's really cool, it's got Sweep so you can pretend it's a second -1 to MAP in those cases where it applies.

As far as I can tell, there's no finesse weapons in the Axe group.

Yeah, that's why I mention it might not be OP's cup of tea. Impossible to tell without specifics, so I just threw 'em there.

Apart from Champion and Fighter, there's also the Sentinel archetype; it's a pretty affordable way of getting both a better armor proficiency (the dedication itself) and its armor specialization effect via the Armor Specialist feat at 6th level, which is one level earlier than even Champ. It works out well for both martials and casters if you plan around it, and if you're getting Sentinel to nab heavy armor then there's also Mighty Bulwark, which kicks ass.

Compared to a potion of Barkskin, a Stone-Body Mutagen gives you a lot of resistance to slashing and piercing but not bludgeoning, so you're out of luck there.

Maybe not what you're looking for since it's pretty specific, but for bludgeoning Hide armor does the trick with its armor specialization effect. It's the only piece of armor in the game that resists bludgeoning, since all other armor in the leather group is light armor. This gives you 1 plus your armor's potency rune value as DR.

This probably isn't what you need, either, but there's also stuff like the reinforced surcoat and Chain's armor group specialization effect, which don't exactly provide DR against bludgeoning but help protect you from all critical strikes. Amusingly they can be stacked together, so the chain armor group reduces damage from crits by 4 plus your armor's potency value, with an extra +2 if you're also using the surcoat. (In case you're wondering, no, there isn't any heavy Chain armor in the game either).

Lightning swap could have been a good candidate for a General Feat. It eould benefit a lot of classes and playstyles.

It feels the remaster was super rushed and some basic things or considerations were just missed.

This is just me, but I feel the same way about Blade Break as a skill feat. Then we could at least pretend to have a STR based analogue of Kip Up to help against being shoved.

But that's not what I dislike about the remaster: I think the Powerful Shove changes are completely arbitrary. Seeing part of the benefit restricted to either clubs or polearms got my hopes up that we'd get a bunch of new weapon-group specific feats, but no, they just decided to make that one feat less usable by certain characters to sprinkle some unneeded realism onto it.
It's a minor thing, but it sticks out like a sore thumb when no other feats besides the reworked Dragging Strike) work like that.

I believe most guide authors that have been keeping their guides up to date will update them at some point. I at least plan to do so.

My guess is that most current guides will start updating in a month or two from now on. Not only lots of people won't have access to the book, but these things also take time.

Agreed, it takes a lot of time if you're starting from the ground up. As for new guides, it'll partly depend on how many new players the remaster drags in, both in terms of willingness to write and an interest in reading them.

It'd be relatively easy to change most guides for the remaster, but some of the existing ones haven't been meaningfully updated in years. Hell, I've been working on and off on a Fighter class guide for about 5 months and that's exactly what motivated it: a lack of analyses for newer options plus the release of Treasure Vault. I thought about rushing it for November, but... Nah, these things take time.

They fixed Additional Lore too, now you can take it for a Lore skill you already had, like those granted by backgrounds. Nice.

Did you guys see the Bless and Protection from X changes? The emanation on Bless starts out bigger now, and Protection now simply grants the target a non-conditional bonus to AC amd saves (!) - it can also be upcast to 3rd level, granting the same benefits in a 10 foot emanation around the target (!!!). You can replicate a better Heroism (+1 to attacks, AC and all saves) now for your whole party with just a third level and a first level spell!

All in all, Clerics are starting to look like the big winners here, at least from what has been shown.

Thirding the Holy rune; the elemental damage runes are a tad overrated in my opinion, but the way I see it Holy is the de-facto choice for mid to high levels due to how much evil s++! there is in the bestiary.

Oh, good catch.

Yeah, looks legit to me. And considering the names of the item and feat, I'm gonna assume the writers actually meant for that to work.

(Note that Fearsome Brute also works with Intimidating Strike, and both are CRB fighter feats. Clearly this kinda damage scaling wasn't considered outrageous.)

I wonder about that, Intimidating Strike is what first popped into my head as an example of something that wouldn't work with Brute on the same attack.

I don't think it's that big of a loss, though, since by the time you get Fearsome Brute you're only two levels away from a greater fearsome rune.

Oh, for real? I thought removing the Open trait was the only confirmed change for the class, maces and flail crit spec nonwithstanding.

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

I think Power Attack just allows fighter PCs to better punch through an enemy's resistances. It works as intended, so no need for errata.

The fact that every other fighting style has a "defining feat" may or may not be true, but that sort of symmetry isn't a design principle of 2E. For example, there's INT- and WIS-based prepared casters, but no CHA-based prepared casters.

What about comparing the exacting strike fighter to the power attack fighter in a duel?

I wouldn't, because comparing PCs directly like that in a damage race tells you nothing useful about the game as it's meant to actually be played or their relative power levels compared to each other.

On the versatility front, Exacting Strike only helps you if you have no better Press abilities (hell, the same could be said about powerful two-action activities like Intimidating Strike: these so-called "meta-strikes" lower the value of ES), so even in a "best case" scenario for Exacting Strike (access to a single striking rune and before PA gets its secone bonus die at level 10), I'd rate Power Attack higher for its ability to let you tackle certain problems like high AC or damage resistance, instead of making you have to mentally commit three actions to attacking to POTENTIALLY get a benefit, which is a set of actions so specific only specialized builds should be attempting to pull off.

In the case of Haste you mentioned, you'd probably be better off using your Haste action moving rather than using it on a -10 attack at full MAP, since a free Stride always has the baseline potency of a Stride whereas a normal Strike usually sucks when you rely on feats that give you different feats to Strike.

I vaguely remember that, it's the same reason Bless gives a +1 to attack rolls (as in strikes) but not to maneuvers with the Attack trait.

More classes should be simple and not have the predefined paths. One of the biggest issues with other classes is exactly that: They are super complicated with very stricts paths, but then no real support compared to what the Fighter/Monk get.

I completely agree here, it's staggering how many good feats Fighter gets compared to some other classes. Anecdotical, but I'm playing one in a game right now and the other day I told one of my friends, a Magus, that there were around 5-7 level 10 feats I'd consider good to amazing picks for my character. He told me that for his, he had basically 2 choices that did anything. Not feats tha he was particularly eager to take like I was, mind you, just 2 that he could reasonably choose from because of his character, subclasses and other restrictions.

I'm thinking it just might be a particularly uneventful level for Magus whereas Fighter has a whole lot of things to sallivate over at 10, but a lot of thought was put into Fighter feats and it shows. I'd like to see the same extended to other classes, eventually.

This kind of build is rarely or never the comparison point against other classes, or part of the analysis of why the fighter is strong, which tends to focus on a damage potential that's marginally better than other classes.

I love the variety of character types that the feat spread offers. Many big brawly guys, some noble fencers, some scrappy shield soldiers. The blank slate is great.

Honestly I think the feats are stronger than the +2 (though they work off each other).

Anyway, good class. Those are my notes.

Au contrairie, I think that kind of character is incredibly powerful! My experience has been similar to that, although we're only level 6 so far and I favor double-hander swords instead. I've been meaning to play an Intimidation build centered on shredding enemy AC since the playtest, and I'm extremely happy with how the game delivers on that front. Thing is, it's just one way to do it, you can more or less mix and match whatever feats you want and you still end up with a good, cohesive whole.

Man, I wanna play some more now. Saturdays can never come soon enough.

Faemeister wrote:

That's where I believe a considerable part of their class identity lies besides simply being the best at hitting things: feat selection and customization.

If a fighter's identiy is "having none", I don't call this an improvement...

I think this may be an issue of perspective. You say it has none, when the class is purposefully designed as a blank slate so you can do whatever you want with it.

What's the fighter's equivalent of a barbarian's rage, a monk's ki powers, a magus's spell, a ranger's edge, a rogue's sneak attack and rackets, a gunslinger's way, a swashbuckler's style or a champion's cause?

I think that's a bit reductionist. Why would every class one specific action they need to use at least once every combat to define its mechanical niche? More to the point and if you're arguing mechanics, is access to Attack of Opportunity since level 1 not flavorful enough? You could level the same complaint to Monks despite Stances being a shared thing between them and Fighters. What about actions with the Press trait? Almost anyone can poach something like Combat Grab from dedications, but the Fighter is still gonna be best at it on account of the "must be under MAP" rule taking their higher accuracy into consideration.

The fighter may be balanced, but I feel like it's missing unique class features to differenciate it from other martial classes.

Some will be quick to defend the Legendary proficiencies, but... what else?

AoO at level 1. Exclusive access to Bravery as pointed out above also counts, it's powerful enough to build around it if you really wanna and fear effects get pretty common in the bestiary as you go up in levels.

Besides learning the most feats compared to any other class, it also has one of the biggest and least restrictive feat lists in the game, whereas things like the Champion or Kineticist are pretty restricted by their Cause or Impulse selection. It literally has over double the amount of feats as Magus, for example.
Seriously, the Fighter list is LOADED, you get so many options for each level and a good chunk of them are really high quality too. If there's a specialized fighting maneuver you can think of, chances are the Fighter can get access to it in some way.

That's where I believe a considerable part of their class identity lies besides simply being the best at hitting things: feat selection and customization.

pixierose wrote:

I think the fighters power is a bit exaggerated. Most other martials get riders to damage of some kind that make their attacks hit harder, fighters lack that in exchange for the accuracy, an accuracy that is still affected by the dice rolls.

White room testing has its value but so does actual play, and from personal experience I've had combats or whole sessions where the fighters accuracy boost did not save it from bad rolls. This is a major outlier, but I do recall the time my level 5 fighter wiffed their entire turn and their friendly neighborhood paladin crit 3 times in a row.
The developers also feel as if fighters are qoeking as intended.

Are you really going to sit here and use an anecdote to excuse the disgusting mess that is an Improve Knockdown Fighter? Show me any single action in the game as efficient as a Fighter knocking a boss flat on their back while dealing damage.

You're not asking for something particularly hard and I know Fighter feats well, so I'll level here.

There are cases where a monster might be better off biting the bullet and staying prone, taking that -2 to attacks in order to not lose an important action. This could be a legitimate consideration if they're already flat-footed from a different effect (like the sword specialization effect, which contrary to popular belief isn't always strictly inferior to that of flails and hammers), or if your party is loaded with reactions that trigger on movement. Both of these instances are perfectly fine with me, as they incentivize (and reward) teamwork.
Debilitating Shot has none of these things to consider, you can just fire and forget. If they end up prone by other means then it's incredibly easy to disengage away from the monster's attack range, effectively neutering two actions and making them unable to do anything meaningful with their last remaining one.

Of course, fixating on the numbers only tells you none of this; playing the game does as it was pointed out by others, in the sense that it helps put all these considerations into perspective.

If you think Fighters are OP but bring up Improved Knockdown instead of Debilitating Shot (which I do think is pretty stupid power-wise, but also a rare outlier), then... well, it doesn't necessarily dismantle your argument that Fighters are overpowered. But it does take serious credence away from these bold, heavy-handed claims you're making.

And this is just one feat, from the same class, at the same level range! I could go on and bring up Wolf Drag, which can be gotten 4 levels earlier, gives your attack Fatal d12, is not a Flourish and gives you a benefit on top of the prerequisite feat (a Stance), rather than replacing the prerequisite outright like Improved Knockdown does, meaning that in practice you get one feat less compared to the Wolf Drag user. So pretty much strictly superior in almost every way, as I'd be hard-pressed to think a simple +2 in Fighter's favor is worth all of that and more.
Admittedly, I don't know the feat lists of other classes very well so there may be other things that give Improved Knockdown a run for its money, but hopefully this illustrates that it's not the be-all end-all god feat some claim it to be.

Whatever they do, if they end up using weapons you gotta tell them about the Anarchic property rune. It sounds incredibly funny.

Guys, remember to drink in moderation! Irresponsible alcohol usage is no joke, even if this a game it can and will kill you.

Don't believe me? Anything above stage 2 intoxication flat-foots you, which sounds bad for your liver but is even worse for your life. Winners don't use drugs Responsible drinkers keep it cool and ride that buzz for the +1 to saves against fear!

You know, a lot is being said about the Monk's class identity boiling down to " being the best at Unarmed combat" and I'm just not seeing it. Maybe in a game like Final Fantasy I where character classes govern mostly static stuff like HP or access to weapons and armor, but that was like 35 years ago and PF2e has better ways to differentiate between classes.

Following this same logic, you'd need to give the Monk Legendary in all weapons you can wield with Monastic Weaponry too, since evidently Monk is meant to be better than everyone else at using monk weapons: it's faulty logic, and it completely sidesteps the fact that even if you're not hitting with that coveted +2 to attacks, you don't particularly need it either to establish yourself as a master of unarmed combat.

This is important, as there is a massive distinction between "making the most precise strikes with your chosen weapon", which is what the Fighter does, and the dozens upon dozens of exclusive class features and feats Monk gets that enable it to shine on its own. You know, the crazy acrobatics, the custom save progression, the harnessing and mastering of ki/chi/qi, stuff like Flurry of Maneuvers... you don't even need to go into all the mystical Wuxia s$$~ you can do if you just wanna play a Pugilist, either! What I'm trying to say is that "unarmed attacks" aren't the Monk's defining feature: what actually defines them, relative to other martial classes, is the whole slew of things they can do as a result of their physical and spiritual training.

Faemeister wrote:

I haven't been able to keep up with the announced changes, it's a bit hard with so many threads to sift through... Does anyone know if there's a compilation of what's been confirmed somewhere, or at least a link to what was revealed at Paizocon?

I don't know if there is a more comprehensive collection, but you should be able to find most of the stuff we know over here.

Wonderful, this is exactly what I was hoping for. Thanks!

I haven't been able to keep up with the announced changes, it's a bit hard with so many threads to sift through... Does anyone know if there's a compilation of what's been confirmed somewhere, or at least a link to what was revealed at Paizocon?

2e is quickly becoming my favorite system, alongside the Log Horizon TRPG. They share tons of the same modular design, and really, the combat in both both is simply a joy to play.

Guy's just trying to get their players to strategize together and play more tactically, maybe "training" isn't the nicest-sounding word but it's still a form of conditioning if you think about it. Delaying or playing around initiative orders with things like Ready isn't metagaming - it's part of the game, even if initiative is an abstraction. Nothing wrong with people taking a high lethality game seriously; it's part of what makes the game exciting if you ask me.

As for the coordination bit, in my experience that can clearly be a case of "my character would know better than me". Like a trained adventurer knowing to walk with their weapon at the ready in hostile or dangerous territory, or knowing to keep a lit lantern on their person when it might be needed.

All the problems people have listed above get solved just by exercising a bit of prudence and restraint. Sudden Charge and then stride halfway between them and your party; they now have to waste one action getting back to you, potentially more if you invested in movement speed. Charge forward then stride to the side and now they have to choose between engaging your teammates or chasing after you.
Even past round 1, it's amazing if you need to reposition unless you have a better Flourish for the situation, because the extra Stride guarantees you'll be able to outmaneuver anything in close proximity. Weave between enemy ranks without having to deal with enemy reactions or hazardous terrain, go in deep to destroy high priority targets, use it to set up flanks for free, that kind of stuff.

It's incredibly versatile turn to turn, which makes it fun to boot.

Ouatcheur wrote:

In other words if you remove PA, then the "big weapon" fighters get absolutely ZILCH.

Power attack should be a feat that works EVEN BETTER with big weapons.

On the other hand, two-handed fighter is a highly effective, straight forward staple build. It's excellent, period.

You mention double slice, hunted shot, and twin takedown as bread and butter feats, but is that actually a good thing?

To reframe the complaint in another way: dual wielding requires a special feat to even exist as a combat style, you are mandated to take a feat like that to even function at all.

The two-handed fighter just works out of the box.

So basically, the two-handed build gets an extra feat for free. That's a benefit, not a limitation or downside.

This, you don't need a skill that turns your turns into a static MMORPG rotation when you can just get Sudden Charge, the best level 1 melee feat in the game.

Claxon wrote:

YuriP wrote:

First of all, I do not imagine or regard order and chaos with the same antagonism that good and evil have. So much so that in the mythology of the game and in the deities of Gods and Magic you rarely see a dispute of this type.

You may not view it that way, but in the lore of the cosmos of Golarion law and chaos hate one another as much as good and evil. Our cultural views make law and chaos not seem as big of deal, but it's usually because we conflate orderliness with good. Unless you throw out the word Freedom specifically (which is something associated with Chaos). But Western societies generally prefer orderliness to chaos and so we often turn law vs chaos into good vs evil.

To +1 what you're saying Claxon, there are actually entire series of novels that focus on the order/chaos metaphysical conflict. And yes, there is definitely a reductive order=good, chaos=evil vibe going on in Western civilizations.

I'm with you both here. Say what you will about alignment being outdated, I'm all about some good ol' cosmic struggle in the way of Moorcock's Elric books; that's how I've always understood the Law/Chaos axis in DnD since it was taken from the books directly.

This is a perfect opportunity to fix advanced weapon proficiency scaling for non-humans and non-Fighters, seconded!

It's a level 1 class feat, it's not supposed to replace your normal attack routine.

Yes, it's worse than two Strikes and yes, Exacting Strike mathematically trumps it damage-wise, so Power Attack is situational by design; that's the point, you use it against things with high AC or damage resistance. To say it's without its uses just because it's not a strict DPR increase is residual thinking from past editions.

Spoilers: something like Exacting Strike might give you more damage in a vacuum but it's still not gonna come up most of your turns (unless you're used to attacking thrice every turn, which is downright suicidal in the encounters you wanna be optimizing for). I don't think Power Attack needs adjusting.

The cool thing with things like gauntlets is that you can wear a single one and get to choose whether you want lethal or nonlethal depending on which hand you use. Or, hell, just using other body parts like your legs or your head for unarmed (nonlethal) attacks works too.

Supporting the above, you can get most of the way there with already-existing options regardless of what flavor you're going for. Personally, I think the Fighter has a great chassis for it assuming you're looking to make a blademaster with access to specialized weeaboo techniques, but tons of classes have minute choices like that to really let you dig into a theme. On the skill side I love the Intimidation feat tree for that same reason.

"XBox, open game menu"

ACCESSING DIGITAL STORE. PROCEED WITH PURCHASE?

"What? No, go back!"

DIGITAL PIRACY DETECTED. PLEASE DRINK A VERIFICATION CAN.

The Bola is an amazing addition for a number of characters, being able to trip at 20ft. range is remarkable for anyone that's invested into Athletics outside of *very* specialized builds (like Giant Instinct Barbarian or Fighter with Lunge, both wielding something like a Guisarme or using a Hooked rune), and even then those don't quite reach the same distance in most cases.

On the other hand, it would make Assurance (Athletics) even stronger in combat as the feat specifically states you don't apply penalties or bonuses to the check. This is something I feel I'll definitely see a lot in our game, since both our Wolf Stance Monk and my double-hander Fighter value the Trip maneuver immensely.

It feels like a common refrain in this book that there are a number of weapons that would be pretty interesting, but are advanced instead of martial which makes them prohibitively painful to access and a little bit underpowered for what they do considering the cost.

Ascalaphus wrote:

I believe so yes. Which might make it one of the most action-efficient ways to share runes across ranged and melee. But at the cost of a low damage die. Still, potentially interesting.

Low damage die might not be a huge deal if you're a class with high innate damage modifiers, although most of the classes that do have trouble getting full value from the weapon. Ruffians can't wield it, thieves don't want strength, thaumaturges are already kind of MAD which makes the split scaling tricky, swashbucklers and barbarians can't use their combat mechanic on the ranged half. Maybe an investigator? ...Does 'like a gauntlet' means it inherits the agile trait a gauntlet has when using it in melee?

Does it count as a crossbow? I assume the answer is yes... but it still feels weird that there are a number of feats keyed off crossbow-type weapons when there's no actual crossbow trait or weapon group.

Oh, good catch! I was fixated on damage type so I didn't notice it, but I honestly see no reason it wouldn't also inherit the traits from a regular gauntlet. So it's a free-hand weapon that lets you parry with it and attack from afar at no action cost to take out a shield or ranged weapon, much less needing two hands for it like crossbows usually do. You even get to ignore the hand requirement for Reload 1 for four shots! That sounds pretty spiffy. Again, more specialized options exist but for being a free-hand weapon that's handy to have.

Agreed on everything else, though, from the prohibitive cost of advanced weapon proficiency in general to the blind spot with crossbows being grouped as bows. Sadly Advanced weapons can't be judged on their own merits as long as they are this obtuse to get proficiency in, which is unfortunate when a lot of the time you're looking to spend a general or ancestry feat (at the very best) in order to... get something that might or might not be worth the hassle compared to a martial weapon. I wonder if Paizo will take notice of this, it seems like most people agree there's several alternatives they could take to correct this issue.

Regardless, I think Advanced weaponry proficiency has been discussed enough as-is on the other thread, so from my end I'll try to move on to discussion on the weapons themselves.

Looking at it now, the Gauntlet Bow seems kinda nuts. No agile or finesse, but it's a free hand weapon with parry that lets you attack from 60ft. with Capacity 4 (!). A lot of weapon setups that don't already specialize in ranged combat could benefit from both free-hand parry and the free-hand ranged attack option, as the four shots you get aren't likely to be a limiting factor unless you're making five or more ranged attacks. But at that point, you'd be better served by a proper ranged weapon.

It loses out to modular, but read the second sentence:

"A gauntlet bow can be used to make melee attacks like a standard gauntlet"

It refers to the regular Gauntlet (and not Spiked Gauntlet), which uses Bludgeoning as its damage type rather than Piercing like the ranged attack so it's better than the initial Piercing damage would suggest. I think it could be a good backup for a number of characters - even if you have 10 DEX, since you don't really lose anything from a free-hand weapon as was pointed out above.

As for the rest, I've been waiting to get to the nodachi since it's the one I've been looking at the most. Barring the obvious (Advanced weapon proficiency being tricky to get, d8 on a two-handed weapon, Fatal being generally better than Deadly), I think it's a perfectly serviceable weapon despite the lower die compared to polearms. Then again, I am of the opinion that people tend to overvalue a single damage die step increase or decrease; a 1 damage difference per damage die on a weapon doesn't feel significant enough to warrant picking solely because of that.

Sure, starting at level 4 the difference is noticeable if you compare it to d12 weapons (the greatsword being a good point of comparison, as it's a fairly vanilla d12 in the same weapon category), but Deadly helps bridge the gap somewhat, especially on a Fighter which is the class most likely to be able to reasonably pick it up in the first place. That, and Brace makes the average (non-crit) damage equal to that of a greatsword, meaning the nodachi pulls ahead in case of a crit by virtue of Deadly d12 in those situations where you can accomodate for Brace. Again, this trait is situational but one of the obvious use cases for it would involve stuff like Combat Reflexes and Lunging Stance, which are natural extensions of a two-handed Reach Fighter build.

My bottom line is that it's a damn sword with reach (which by itself merits pointing out, on top of being a more historically accurate "great sword" than the greatsword), so the questionable (read: almost universally agreed to be bad) design space of advanced weapon proficiency is somewhat offset by the unique niche it provides, at least from a personal perspective.

I was tricked. You promise weapons but there is naught but armors and shields. You villain.

Same, I got excited when I saw the name lol

I like the analysis so far, OP, good job. While TV introduces several additions to armor that I think will be important, where it's really at if you want customization is in the new weapon tables. Now it's easier than ever to find a weapon with a combination of traits you think is interesting, on top of also simply having more options because of the new weapons themselves. Nothing is TOO outrageous, and despite some problems (like the well pondered Advanced weapon proficiency), you can still build around most weapons types and enjoy the solid weapon selection.

It's not like in past editions where a lot of stuff was just garbage and you'd never have a reason to use it, because it takes the (at first glance small) differences of weapons with different traits and makes them mean something mechanically, so you can just pick whatever supports or fits your own playstyle. I really like that.

EDIT: I cannot state this enough, they need to make Advanced weapon proficiency easier to get for non-Fighters! That'd be a lovely change to see.

Hey guys, what's up, we're level 2 and with Treasure Vault dropping, there's a lot I hadn't looked at to consider.

First off, a few weeks ago I got the idea of getting Adopted Ancestry as a general feat in order to be able to snipe Dwarf feats, since by far they seem to get some of the coolest ancestry options in the game. I really dig Heroes' Call, for example, but what actually caught my eye was, in fact, Unburdened Iron. Let me tell you something, I hate going slow: I took Fleet and Sudden Charge at chargen and it's priceless to have 60 feet of moement plus a strike for two actions.

So it got me thinking, right? Unburdened Iron to mantain the 60ft. speed even after upgrading armor to full plate sounds really good. This, with the fact that General feats are seemingly best spent on Skill feats, led me to consider stacking these movement bonuses: if you think about it, taking Adopted Ancestry is sorta like getting feat taxed for not playing a dorf with -5 speed, lol. It's sort of the same idea for stacking Mountain's Stoutness on top of Toughness, which although good it seems less impressive. I ran the idea through my friends, and they thought it sounded stupid. Admittedly, it is kind of stupid, but I think there's merit to having 60ft. speed on a STR Fighter but I'd like to hear some opinions on it.

That brings us to Treasure Vault. Did you guys notice we have a sword with reach now? I don't know if everyone noticed since some people simply dismiss new content immediately if it's not strictly superior to already existing options, but there is in fact a reach sword in the game now in the form of the nodachi (1d8, 2 hands, Reach, Brace, Deadly d12) and I think it might just be what I need to step my game to the next level. I love the crunch of reach weapons but have never played with one because I just don't think polearms are that cool compared to swords, so now that I can take the nodachi's statblock and refluff it (we are in Tian Xia, but my character is more for european zweihanders), I'm really excited about snagging Unconventional Weaponry at level 3 in order to try it out. It doesn't change my plans much, since a least range-wise Reach is more-or-less equivalent to an extra 5ft. of movement. Any thoughts on this part? I think it's a good compromise (at least until I end up being high enough level that I can get Unburdened Iron too anyway haha lol)

Oh, yeah, just one last thing. I've been looking at Marshal, it's a really solid-looking archetype. Would you value Inspiring Marshall Stance over Dread Marshal Stance? Both are auras and one gives you a +1 status bonus to attack rolls on top of upgrading the Dedication's aura into a +1 against mental effects (rather than just fear effects). The other gives you a status bonus to damage equal to the number of damage dice on your weapon, plus what's basically the effect of a Frightening rune to everyone as an aura; this last bit sounds very interesting since I'm building around the condition and I could use it with Intimidating Strike, but I think I'm leaning more towards the to-hit bonus because we don't have anyone with a status buff to attack rolls for the time being. It's like Bless, but you better because you're already a frontliner that wants to be in the thick of it! Amazing! Rounding up saves to mental effects is a nice bonus I definitely appreciate more than a flat +1/+2 to damage since, personally, it's really tough playing something with low Will saves, so it's mostly between the +1 to hit and adding the effect of a Frightening rune to all allies within your aura.

Sorry for making this so long-winded, I'm completely hooked on the game now so I've been thinking about this a lot! Again, thanks in advance for any input you might have.

So what kind of best melee focused builds you can recommend and I would be grateful if you could also give me breakdown of your build so I can start to see "patterns" and "syngergies" etc. and slowly build my understanding of optimization in this system.

Just want to deliver very high damage/DPR and hopefully still keep nice defenses up.

Plenty of others have gone into this, but I really dig that in 2e building characters with this mindset and trying to beeline straight into DPR isn't actually optimal by any margin.

I get what you're putting down about crushing defenses for your party, with the critical sword specialization effect for example you can shred an enemy's AC, especially if you're combining it with a Frightened value. That left me to wonder further about weapons, though, since I've been looking at weapon property runes and there's a lot to take in. Frost seems really strong at first but the DC to slow doesn't scale and by the time you're level 8, adventurers have at least a +10 to Fortitude saves just by virtue of existing. There's also the Frightening rune (Frightened 1 on critical), which to an extent makes you less reliant on Intimidating Strike if you can't set up a good Demoralize.
But maybe a property rune is worth more than a class feat, I can't be sure without playing the game a bit more.

On another note and kind of unrelated, but something I forgot to ask nonetheless: are physical resistances important in general? Bastard swords, which I'm using, have the Versatile (Piercing) trait so I'm wondering if it makes sense, mechanically, to find a way to deal bludgeoning damage to cave skulls in with your weapon's pommel, like I mentioned earlier. It makes for a great image mentally and I definitely want to play with the unique ''complete mastery over the chosen weapon'' angle Fighters get, so mostly I'm just wondering if it's ever going to come up. I know skeletons have bludgeoning DR, but I don't wanna spoil myself looking at the bestiary so soon.

That is a fantastic way of thinking of it. Attacking the enemy's HP is great. But attacking the enemy's actions and effectiveness is also great. And doing both will be a better use of your own actions than attacking with high Multiple Attack Penalty will be.

That's good to hear, because while the Fighter seems pretty amazing at layin' on the hurt due to their higher weapon expertise it'd feel like a waste to do nothing but attack with all the options one has in combat. I usually play frontline for our group so helping control the pace of a fight like that seems really high value at a glance.

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I appreciate going in-depth with different feats, it definitely feels like I'm spoiled for choices but at the end of the day having several worthwhile options is a great feeling. I know about Shove/Dragging being Press which means ideally you want some sort of back-up or a different action to round up your turn, but from an action economy perspective it sounds like a pretty sweet deal... This only works against targets your size, but you get to attack someone, reposition them out of your friends' reach AND move after them afterwards? Feats like that and, as you say, Knockdown, look interesting for manipulating foes and forcing them to stick to you even on a two-handed weapon build. As for the grip thing, I'm not sweating it too much since I know dropping a hand from your weapon is a free action and adding a hand to your grip is one action, so you can reasonably switch back and forth as needed without wasting too much time.

Noted on everything else; Bon Mot seems really strong, enough that I'd at least consider it for this kind or character. Strangely enough I'll probably end up being the party face, so even something like Quick Coercion might be cool to snipe people out of fights before they happen. I'd have thought Terrifying Defense would be pretty good since it helps shore up what seems like one of the class' weaknesses and hopefully I'm gonna spend a lot of time frightening enemies. I'll probably take Quick Reversal regardless (or maybe Swipe? Cleaving is so fun) to test it out, since I'm pretty enamoured with the idea of willingly putting yourself in a flank just to be able to use one of your more dangerous techniques. It's so stupid but it fits the "high-risk, double pay" concept of an elite zweihander mercenary to a T.