Design Manager
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I honestly don’t see, or am interested really, in the “chosen one” since the origin of the class is literally “dead god blood/flesh/essence hit and mutated me” which is far more interesting to me in many ways.
You’re not the hero foretold in the prophecy.
You’re Spider-Man.
Incredible Hulk would also be a good analogy, if you're using comic books. Could have just been obliterated by the cosmic radiation, but instead you got lucky and became a badass.
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If one of my player (or me for that matter if the crunch is fun) ever picks the exemplar, I will thoroughly strip it of any main character connotation and make it "I am a sorcerer that hits stuff instead of casting spells". You have special powers but they are NOT god given, you are not THE chosen one, you are not more special than the others. So basically a bloodrager that went to therapy.
My irony meter just shattered.
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Incredible Hulk would also be a good analogy, if you're using comic books. Could have just been obliterated by the cosmic radiation, but instead you got lucky and became a badass.I honestly don’t see, or am interested really, in the “chosen one” since the origin of the class is literally “dead god blood/flesh/essence hit and mutated me” which is far more interesting to me in many ways.
You’re not the hero foretold in the prophecy.
You’re Spider-Man.
*nods*
(I like Spider-Man more so it popped into my head first :3)
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There was no “chosen one” in today’s stream. Exemplars have no root in prophecy or divine favor - again, the Iconic received his abilities by chance.
People are decrying a class that doesn’t exist.
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On a semi-related note: I’m not seeing how the existence of Exemplars either guarantees OR delimits the chances of seeing Mythic play/rules released. This is a class. With some mechanics. I don’t see how that makes a Mythic ruleset more or less likely.
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I honestly don’t see, or am interested really, in the “chosen one” since the origin of the class is literally “dead god blood/flesh/essence hit and mutated me” which is far more interesting to me in many ways.
You’re not the hero foretold in the prophecy.
You’re Spider-Man.
Also that is the way the iconic Exemplar got his powers.
I dearly hope the usual origin stories for Mythic heroes are also on the table.
After all hero-gods definitely predate the War of Immortals and I feel the Exemplar class is tailor-made for many of them.
Come to think of it, the class plus the various new Becoming immortal abilities that will come in the same book might suffice to cover the hero-gods we already have in canon.
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Yes, the exemplar sounds like something that would rather belong in a superhero game,Which Pathfinder has always been more or less.
That is definitely true. Even more obvious with the Kineticist who maps to all energy-using supes I can think of.
The Exemplar maps to more physical supes, like Hulk, the Thing, Juggernaut, Wonder Woman ...
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On a semi-related note: I’m not seeing how the existence of Exemplars either guarantees OR delimits the chances of seeing Mythic play/rules released. This is a class. With some mechanics. I don’t see how that makes a Mythic ruleset more or less likely.
Agreed. And I believe Michael Sayre already confirmed on reddit that the Exemplar is in no way intended to substitute for mythic rules.
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People are talking about the Exemplar like some Sort of Chosen one when is the guy that by Chance stumbled and Fell face first into a puddle of divine goo
might be the Backstory of my first Exemplar
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On a semi-related note: I’m not seeing how the existence of Exemplars either guarantees OR delimits the chances of seeing Mythic play/rules released. This is a class. With some mechanics. I don’t see how that makes a Mythic ruleset more or less likely.Agreed. And I believe Michael Sayre already confirmed on reddit that the Exemplar is in no way intended to substitute for mythic rules.
Good to know. Thank you.
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All classes are "I'm the protagonist" classes if you choose to hog the spotlight.
I'd like to point out Maui was not the protagonist of Moana, Theseus was just a member of the Argonauts crew, and Sun Wukong had to accompany Tang Sanzang on their journey to India.
So if your player is going to hog the spotlight, the problem happens way before class choice in session 0.
What can I say, except, you're welcome?
I definitely plan to play Disney's Maui for the playtest. Lots of fun with Bards (if they start singing) and pet classes (Princes and Princesses the whole lot) ...
And I will definitely dial it down if it bothers anyone at the table.
After all, I will just be playing an ordinary demi-guy.
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My first idea for an Exemplar is actually a starfinder pc. Archeologist who specializes in the Gap comes across the tomb of a god that died during the gap and becomes empowered.
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I was as skeptical as many about the "Demigod" concept even though I could definitely see the Maui comparisons, but now that I can see some of how the Exemplar's concept works, I'm growing increasingly in love with the idea of a class whose humble tools can be imbued with the power of their legend to take on mighty properties. I'm absolutely thrilled with the idea of Epithets--having your own heroic deeds immortalized in legend and thereby empowering you? It tickles me.
If anything, the hardest part of the class's flavour, Rarity-wise, is that it asks your GM to setup so that you can actually perform the deeds whose legend will empower your spark. I get that it might not be for everybody but calling it the 'main character chosen one' class seems to me to be missing the point of the class entirely. Any class can be a hero of legend--the Exemplar's deal is that they are heroes who gain power from their legend (via the medium of their god spark), even if at low levels the only people who tell their tale are the people back at their home village who saw them eat a dozen pies in one sitting and call call them "Bron the Hungry"
--
In other news, excited to finally see our new shamanic Animist rolling into town with some very interesting concepts. I like this idea of the apparition possessing the sage and want to know more. Admittedly the full-caster chassis doesn't leave a lot of room, so while I'm excited for some animism magic, the Exemplar naturally has a lot more to excite my imagination right now.
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For those who have trouble with it from the "low-level demigod" idea... you're looking at it wrong. This isn't about being a demigod. It's about being a legend... and a lot of the really good legends start small. You build your saga as you go. Your saga empowers you, and that lets you do More Awesome Things, and that strengthens your saga and lets it empower you more. It's a very Viking idea. (I'm sure that there are other cultures that do it to, but I've had reason to study Vikings a bit lately, and there's stuff here that feels very Viking.)
Your use of the word Saga here reminded me of how I understand Mana.
Now, I am definitely not knowledgeable about the concept of Mana. I just happened to see a great and AFAICT respectful exhibition about New Zealand's history and culture. I was fascinated by the use of jade. But the exhibition also talked about Mana and it tried to explain its role in the culture.
And I feel that the way Mana could grow and be transmitted sounds similar to how you used Saga in your explanation.
IIRC the First Nations of Australia also have the concept of stories making their topic more real.
A good example of when you use the rare tag and for what reasons. I'm excited to try out both classes, but I'll downplay the "living legend" and "titles for great deeds" aspects of exemplar beyond what any other pc would experience while I dm.
My concerns about the exemplar ( I won’t call them fears or even worries, just concerns I have for how the class plays at the table) aren’t really the big picture narrative. I agree it has super hero vibes and that fits ok with most other PF2 characters.
My concerns are that the classes feats we have had previewed all jump immediately to gonzo, not in power budget, but in narrative set up. That has a lot of potential for disruption of the table narrative, and is why I think the class needed to be rare. It looks like the player and the GM both need to be prepared to do some work to dial the “what does this character do?” Down from sun punching to urban investigation.
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My concerns about the exemplar ( I won’t call them fears or even worries, just concerns I have for how the class plays at the table) aren’t really the big picture narrative. I agree it has super hero vibes and that fits ok with most other PF2 characters.
My concerns are that the classes feats we have had previewed all jump immediately to gonzo, not in power budget, but in narrative set up. That has a lot of potential for disruption of the table narrative, and is why I think the class needed to be rare. It looks like the player and the GM both need to be prepared to do some work to dial the “what does this character do?” Down from sun punching to urban investigation.
I can see Batman as an Exemplar. He just does not shout his abilities' names for all to hear.
They are whispered by his enemies.
"Animist as teased is basically PF1 Shaman with a different coat of paint and maybe some texture differences"
I'd say it's closer to Medium than Shaman if anything, from what was shown "being a spellcaster that deals with spirits" is where the similarities end. It has a class feature that gives it more spells from other sources? Yeah lots of classes do.
You fuse with a spirit and get certain abilities and spells, which is distinct from you have a familiar and an Oracle Mystery and you get Hexes.
"the idea that it was Uncommon (which is less severe than Rare) and had actual setting explanations for where it actually is common were things that helped its situation out more. The odds of having these explanations come to pass in a reasonable manner that isn't just made up of "GM Handwavium," is pretty slim."
That's an assumption you are having. Also, see Iblydos. And Mordant Spire.
"Another is telling the difference between an Exemplar and another, similar class; AKA, class identity. What's to stop the Exemplar from being mistaken for a Champion or Cleric or some other deity-specific class with their miracle-performing abilities?"
I'm not actually seeing the issue here.
"if I can literally roleplay an Exemplar the same way I can a Champion or Cleric (barring taking some dedication feats), then I'm not sure it really succeeds at being a class that has its own identity separate from the others."
Uh, it's powered by the remains of a dead god mutating them. That's a BIG difference from literally every other deity adjacent class right there.
"The last one, and the most important one, is that it mostly promotes player toxicity by essentially "entitling" the Exemplar player to believe they should be the one in the spotlight the most by nature of how their class is presented to be "I'm literally touched by god power,""
No more than any other class, the rules and mechanics should be designed for those that play the game in good faith. If you have a problem player you deal with that out of...
It's like the Shaman in that it casts Primal spells and uses spirit guides/animals to power its abilities. Maybe some Medium influences in there, but saying it's an original concept not derived from the previous edition is still false advertisement either way.
Sure, but given the subtleties of "I'm infused with God power," a Champion or Cleric basically already fulfills that concept.
I would put the Exemplar on the same tier of the classic "Paladins Fall" or "Chaotic Stupid" threads, on the low end of the spectrum. High end, I feel, would surpass that. PF2 took great care to remove that possibility of problem gameplay from the Champion class. Let's not reintroduce it back with this new class.
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It's like the Shaman in that it casts Primal spells
Just a small correction here Animist uses the divine spell list. Their spirits grant them spontaneous spells that can be from any tradition including primal, but their prepared spellcasting is the same as a cleric's.
it's powered by the remains of a dead god mutating them.
Now I'm imagining a psychological horror character concept where an Exemplar's personality is slowly being replaced by a generic hero personality as they increase in power, their friends watching in horror as the Exemplar slowly forgets everything about their former life.
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Now I'm imagining a psychological horror character concept where an Exemplar's personality is slowly being replaced by a generic hero personality as they increase in power, their friends watching in horror as the Exemplar slowly forgets everything about their former life.
...and they realize it too! But, you know... heroic self-sacrifice and all. They can do so much more good this way. It bothered them at first, but they've gotten more and more okay with it as time goes on.
Shades of how the Exaltation would sometimes just core out the personality of the host.
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Batman doesn’t punch the sun to make it go dark. Not even Superman or the Hulk do that in modern super hero narrative. Narratively, the feats we’ve had previewed lean into the larger than life chuck norris meme comparison pretty heavily and pretty quickly and that can almost bend the genre expectations of the whole game. I am not saying it is a deal breaker or a huge problem, but it is a concern to watch for in playtesting. It feels like the feats of the exemplar lean toward myth and abstract storytelling. That is interesting and even really cool for some stories and campaigns but will they make other characters feel like BMX stunt biker next to Angel summoner? Not power wise, but narrative wise?
PF2 doesn’t do mechanical text and narrative text separately. Feats, spells, and abilities are supposed to do what they say they do. A whole class who’s abilities are just narratively larger than life needs feedback about what that is doing to gameplay as much as the mechanics.
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> but saying it's an original concept not derived from the previous edition
That’s not what was said.
> Sure, but given the subtleties of "I'm infused with God power," a Champion or Cleric basically already fulfills that concept.
Not even remotely the same, not even in the vicinity. Trying to boil Champion, Cleric, and Exemplar as all being the same because “infused with god power” (ignoring infused and using said power in very different ways) is blatantly nonsensical.
> I would put the Exemplar on the same tier of the classic "Paladins Fall" or "Chaotic Stupid" threads, on the low end of the spectrum. High end, I feel, would surpass that. PF2 took great care to remove that possibility of problem gameplay from the Champion class. Let's not reintroduce it back with this new class.
You don’t hold everyone accountable for bad players and GMs, you hold bad players and GMs accountable. You being so terrified of them hypothetically existing is a you issue. Halfway decent GMs/groups will preemptively stop that nonsense, or, radical idea, talk it out and work out the issues.
If not, you got bigger issues than a class with god blood in your group, all the class did was shed some light on it.
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Batman doesn’t punch the sun to make it go dark. Not even Superman or the hill do that in modern super hero narrative. Narratively, the feats we’ve had previewed lean into the larger than life chuck norris meme comparison pretty heavily and pretty quickly and that can almost bend the genre expectations of the whole game.
I think it may be how we look at the feats of strength that is wrong. I think it may be less "you're so incredibly powerful you perform feats greater than even superman" and more "you're a storybook hero so you're allowed to solve problems like a storybook character would". After all, Hercules shot the sun but no one thinks he would win a fight with superman.
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Batman doesn’t punch the sun to make it go dark. Not even Superman or the hill do that in modern super hero narrative. Narratively, the feats we’ve had previewed lean into the larger than life chuck norris meme comparison pretty heavily and pretty quickly and that can almost bend the genre expectations of the whole game.I think it may be how we look at the feats of strength that is wrong. I think it may be less "you're so incredibly powerful you perform feats greater than even superman" and more "you're a storybook hero so you're allowed to solve problems like a storybook character would". After all, Hercules shot the sun but no thinks he would win a fight with superman.
I agree that this is the set up of the Exemplar class. "You are a storybook hero. You can just do things because the story says you can," is the vibe I am getting from the previewed feats. My concern, and what I am curious about with the playtest feedback, is "how does that make everyone else at the table feel?"
The Exemplar is a character who is almost tangibly given plot weapons and plot armor, but only within the same constrained mechanical space as other characters get regular armor and regular weapons. Is it easy for everyone to have fun completely mashing these story telling tropes up? I think it will be for very many players, and I think there are probably stories that can't be told in Golarion without something like this.
At the same time, If the Exemplar is the class that narratively just gets to make up their own rules, but only sometimes, and sometimes in ways that won't feel nearly as mechanically powerful as the story of what is supposedly happening would seem to indicate...is that going to ever be disruptive to the game and to other players? I think that is worth paying attention to in the playtesting.
Do players that punch the sun for some limited darkness and darkvision describe it that way in play? Does that instantly freakout every NPC around them or is it just like, "I am a goblin, I already have darkvision. You just wasted some actions doing nothing"...never mind the goblin just watched a character somehow punch the sun. It is really not a rules thing at all, just a "what effect does this have on the story telling of the adventure."
I think the Exemplar will be a very difficult character to fit in PFS, which again makes the rare tag make a lot of sense.
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Batman doesn’t punch the sun to make it go dark. Not even Superman or the hill do that in modern super hero narrative. Narratively, the feats we’ve had previewed lean into the larger than life chuck norris meme comparison pretty heavily and pretty quickly and that can almost bend the genre expectations of the whole game.I think it may be how we look at the feats of strength that is wrong. I think it may be less "you're so incredibly powerful you perform feats greater than even superman" and more "you're a storybook hero so you're allowed to solve problems like a storybook character would". After all, Hercules shot the sun but no thinks he would win a fight with superman.I agree that this is the set up of the Exemplar class. "You are a storybook hero. You can just do things because the story says you can," is the vibe I am getting from the previewed feats. My concern, and what I am curious about with the playtest feedback, is "how does that make everyone else at the table feel?"
The Exemplar is a character who is almost tangibly given plot weapons and plot armor, but only within the same constrained mechanical space as other characters get regular armor and regular weapons. Is it easy for everyone to have fun completely mashing these story telling tropes up? I think it will be for very many players, and I think there are probably stories that can't be told in Golarion without something like this.
At the same time, If the Exemplar is the class that narratively just gets to make up their own rules, but only sometimes, and sometimes in ways that won't feel nearly as mechanically powerful as the story of what is supposedly happening would seem to indicate...is that going to ever be disruptive to the game and to other players? I think that is worth paying attention to in the playtesting.Do players that punch the sun for some limited darkness and darkvision describe it that way in play? Does that instantly freakout every NPC around them or is it...
TBT this somehow reminds me of the posts bashing the playtest Thaumaturge's ability to "convince the universe its opponent has some weakness through sheer CHA".
It was heavy Sturm und Drang that ended up in nothing real.
Also I do not see why an Exemplar would be hard to fit in PFS. Even a strong guy drenched in power-giving godstuff can Explore, Report and Cooperate.
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I think it may be how we look at the feats of strength that is wrong. I think it may be less "you're so incredibly powerful you perform feats greater than even superman" and more "you're a storybook hero so you're allowed to solve problems like a storybook character would". After all, Hercules shot the sun but no one thinks he would win a fight with superman.
If I can add to this, I think it might help to remember the lenses with which this class is supposed to be viewed (as I understand it) is that these feats and abilities are describing the legend surrounding the Exemplar – not their literal deed itself, which is often much more mundane than the tavern songs and campfire tales it inspires.
"They punched the sun" isn't describing what the Exemplar literally did – it's how the deed is described afterwards by the wide-eyed villager describing the scene to their children afterward. And unlike other adventurers, who probably have some form of this celebrity going on already, the Exemplar literally gains supernatural power as a consequence of their stories being told. That's their thing.
In some form of narrative connection to the themes of Animist, I see the sun-punching incident unfolding like this: the sun has an animistic presence in the world, existing not merely as natural phenomena, but also as a distinct spiritual thing, which can be found locally and in a more holistic sense in entities like Sarenrae. Punching the sun affects the sun's localized presence, without really affecting the whole itself. It plucked a strand of hair off the mountainous titan. And it looked like the sun went black, even though someone a five-minute walk away won't have the faintest inkling someone nearby is watching a solar eclipse unfurl over their heads. It's rad.
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The Iconic Exemplar had a piece of a dead god fall on him; not exactly “the Chosen One.”
Man! I had a piece of dead god fall on me and all I got was this lousy death.
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I think it may be how we look at the feats of strength that is wrong. I think it may be less "you're so incredibly powerful you perform feats greater than even superman" and more "you're a storybook hero so you're allowed to solve problems like a storybook character would". After all, Hercules shot the sun but no one thinks he would win a fight with superman.If I can add to this, I think it might help to remember the lenses with which this class is supposed to be viewed (as I understand it) is that these feats and abilities are describing the legend surrounding them – not the literal deed itself, which is often much more mundane than the tavern songs and campfire tales it inspired.
"They punched the sun" isn't describing what the Exemplar literally did – it's how the deed is described afterwards by the wide-eyed villager describing the scene to their children afterward. And unlike other adventurers, who probably have some form of this celebrity going on already, the Exemplar literally gains supernatural power as a consequence of their stories being told. That's their thing.
In some form of narrative connection to the themes of Animist, I see the sun-punching incident unfolding like this: the sun has an animistic presence in the world, existing not merely as natural phenomena, but also as a distinct spiritual thing, which can be found locally and in a more holistic sense in entities like Sarenrae. Punching the sun affects the sun's localized presence, without really affecting the whole itself. It plucked a strand of hair off the mountainous titan. And it looked like the sun went black, even though someone a five-minute walk away won't have the faintest inkling someone nearby is watching a solar eclipse unfurl over their heads. It's rad.
Except that you have an absolute nobody doing something and somehow getting power from being famous? That is literally the definition of putting the cart before the horse.
If a Rogue creates an area of...
AFAICT it is the Divine Shard within the Exemplar that allows them to gain power in this way. Rogue or caster do not have this. Unless they MC into Exemplar I guess.
Other classes use other things as their source of power. Just ask the Thaumaturge, or the Sorcerer, or the Witch, or the Oracle, or the Barbarian or the Champion ...| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Except that you have an absolute nobody doing something and somehow getting power from being famous? That is literally the definition of putting the cart before the horse.
No. You have an absolute nobody getting a tiny speck of godpower, and then growing it by developing their own legend.
I note that this has some interesting implications for the relationship between deity and worshippers.
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My first idea for an Exemplar is actually a starfinder pc. Archeologist who specializes in the Gap comes across the tomb of a god that died during the gap and becomes empowered.
This is the way.
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> but saying it's an original concept not derived from the previous edition
That’s not what was said.
> Sure, but given the subtleties of "I'm infused with God power," a Champion or Cleric basically already fulfills that concept.
Not even remotely the same, not even in the vicinity. Trying to boil Champion, Cleric, and Exemplar as all being the same because “infused with god power” (ignoring infused and using said power in very different ways) is blatantly nonsensical.
> I would put the Exemplar on the same tier of the classic "Paladins Fall" or "Chaotic Stupid" threads, on the low end of the spectrum. High end, I feel, would surpass that. PF2 took great care to remove that possibility of problem gameplay from the Champion class. Let's not reintroduce it back with this new class.
You don’t hold everyone accountable for bad players and GMs, you hold bad players and GMs accountable. You being so terrified of them hypothetically existing is a you issue. Halfway decent GMs/groups will preemptively stop that nonsense, or, radical idea, talk it out and work out the issues.
If not, you got bigger issues than a class with god blood in your group, all the class did was shed some light on it.
Really? They never said that? Let's look at the first paragraph of the blog post again and see if I'm hallucinating.
Hello Pathfinders! As we announced during our Gen Con Keynote Presentation, we have a playtest of two new classes starting September 1! These classes are entirely new – not concepts brought forward from First Edition into Second Edition—and we can’t wait to share them with you!
Meanwhile, Animist is a divine "2/3" spellcaster that uses spirit guides/animals as a source of ancillary power. Hmmmm, I seem to recall a PF1 hybrid class that was very similar to this called the Shaman, a mix between the Druid and the Witch class. It might not be a 1:1 conversion, but the concept existed in a previous edition, which was opposite of the claim being made. The denial is real.
One is infused with Divine Power straight from the source. One prays for Divine Power and it is granted to them. One takes up the cause of a Divine entity and is given additional powers in exchange, AKA Divine Power. Not in the same vicinity, you say? Okay, sure, even though in another relevant thread, it was posited that the directness of a source of Divinity doesn't matter in determining whether it is Divine or not. Heck, even Celestial Sorcerer is close, but is very opt-in to the whole deity thing, hence why I didn't use it as an example, since it's about as baked-in to the class as a Nephilim Fighter who worships a deity.
For it to be a "me" problem, I have to be the only one having an issue with it. The fact that others are expressing similar concerns means it's not just some unfounded conclusion; we see a potential pitfall and hope Paizo has a means to acknowledge and remediate this concern that we can see erupting at tables (not just our own, though it's fun to see people assume people having problems with options being published are just problem tables; pot meet kettle).
Furthermore, the "I don't have an issue with this, so it shouldn't be an issue for anyone else" mentality is basically a form of gatekeeping/a claim of badwrongfun for tables who don't play the same way you do, which undermines its objectivity.
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Wait is animist divine or primal? I thought they said divine...
Divine, with bonus spells from your Apparition - with at least one of them giving some Primal spells.
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Wait is animist divine or primal? I thought they said divine...Its divine.
They also said depending on your spirits you can get spells from other traditions
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literally why is this worthy of being so angry you write this much text over it. temperans you literally don't even play this game
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Animist can fill the role of the medium/shaman quite well if not mechanically but thematically and I like that.
Depending on how I see the Exemplar abilities working it could be reskinned and be a better Warpriest if they worship a deity or more like a better Bloodrager than what we can currently do.
Set dressing is easy to change to fit what theme you need with these pretty well and since PF2e. As someone said though I can't remember where "2E is a diesel not a Ferrari" game engine some tweaks should be easy to come up with without busting anything.
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Except that you have an absolute nobody doing something and somehow getting power from being famous? That is literally the definition of putting the cart before the horse.No. You have an absolute nobody getting a tiny speck of godpower, and then growing it by developing their own legend.
I note that this has some interesting implications for the relationship between deity and worshippers.
I mean, it more implies things about divine sparks tbh. Like gods canonically don't get power from worshipers nor is amount of worshipers relative to their power, but then there are things like Idol which become sentient when they have worshipers and literally gain more powers more worshipers the object has.