Kineticist: rough analysis of what the elements are good for, and drawing a few implications

[Squiggit]

I'm not sure that's really a question, the feat is pretty straight forward.

[aobst128]

Ed Reppert wrote:

I really like this latest version of Raijin Perun. One thing bothers me, though: RAW, it looks to me like his personal staff isn't legal. The RAW says "you can cast a spell from a staff only if it's on your spell list," and a kineticist doesn't have a spell list. I suppose the question is whether Kinetic Activation gets around this limitation. I hope so, 'cause I really want him to have that staff. :-)

Kinetic activation specifically mentions staves and how kineticists can prepare and cast with them.

[Ravingdork]

aobst128 wrote:

Ed Reppert wrote:

I really like this latest version of Raijin Perun. One thing bothers me, though: RAW, it looks to me like his personal staff isn't legal. The RAW says "you can cast a spell from a staff only if it's on your spell list," and a kineticist doesn't have a spell list. I suppose the question is whether Kinetic Activation gets around this limitation. I hope so, 'cause I really want him to have that staff. :-)

Kinetic activation specifically mentions staves and how kineticists can prepare and cast with them.

Yep. Raijin should be capable of using any spell with the Air or Water trait from a staff. I didn't much care for the new elemental-themed staves shown in Rage of Elements, so I gave him a personalized staff (per Secrets of Magic) with a bunch of Air spells instead. He could actually have had a more powerful staff, but starting funds were limited and I wasn't willing to compromise elsewhere.

[YuriP]

25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

kineticist still doesn't look like they have good damage

even 3 action overflow have lower damage than some good 2 action focus spell but are better at aoe

which is less valuable compare to focus down one enemy first or debuff multiple enemy

but as archetype it have massive and versatile level 2 to level 8 feat pool

competition for feat slot is fierce

Well this makes some sense once we are comparing kineticist's no-cost impulses with focus spells.

Anyway a kineticist still get a better DPR due their best combination of action economy and integration between different impulses speacilly in the last 3 levels.

Here a comparison of a draconic sorcerer, an elemental sorcerer and a pyrokineticist.

[Deriven Firelion]

25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

kineticist still doesn't look like they have good damage

even 3 action overflow have lower damage than some good 2 action focus spell but are better at aoe

which is less valuable compare to focus down one enemy first or debuff multiple enemy

but as archetype it have massive and versatile level 2 to level 8 feat pool

competition for feat slot is fierce

Are you sure? They will eventually get Legendary attack with a +2 item bonus to hit. That should lead to more crits. They can likely Elemental Blast and 2 action save attack nearly every round, while sustaining a damaging effect by level 12.

That looks like it could be pretty brutal.

[Ed Reppert]

Squiggit wrote:

I'm not sure that's really a question, the feat is pretty straight forward.

If it's not a question, what is it?

[Ed Reppert]

aobst128 wrote:

Kinetic activation specifically mentions staves and how kineticists can prepare and cast with them.

So it does. I guess that's what I get for trying to think at 5 AM.

[Ed Reppert]

Ravingdork wrote:

Yep. Raijin should be capable of using any spell with the Air or Water trait from a staff. I didn't much care for the new elemental-themed staves shown in Rage of Elements, so I gave him a personalized staff (per Secrets of Magic) with a bunch of Air spells instead. He could actually have had a more powerful staff, but starting funds were limited and I wasn't willing to compromise elsewhere.

You used table 10-10, didn't you (20000 GP at level 16)? :-)

Just for grins, I made Raijin at 1st level in Hero lab, and then copied that file and in the copy "promoted" him to 2nd level, giving him one fourth of the party gold for first level in table 10-9. Then I repeated that "promotion" so I have 16 copies of Raijin, one at each level up to 16. He ends up with a lot more gold. In fact, my level 16 version has max fundamental runes on his staff (no property runes; those I don't think you can have on a personal staff). At the moment he has this wish list:

Staff of Four Winds (Level 15) Upgrade cost from level 13: 3500 GP
Weapon Proficiency Rune (+3) Upgrade cost from +2: 8000 GP
Major Slick Rune Upgrade cost from Greater: 8550 GP
Total Cost: 20050 GP, or 2005 PP.

He currently has 1910 PP, enough for the rune upgrades. That saves me from having to figure out what 6th rank spells to add to his staff. :-)

Raijin Perun 16
Human kineticist 16 (Advanced Player's Guide, Lost Omens Character Guide, Lost Omens Firebrands, Rage of Elements, Secrets of Magic)
N, Medium, Human, Humanoid
Heritage versatile human
Background hired killer
Perception +24
Languages Common, Mwangi, Sussuran, Thalassic
Skills Acrobatics +27 (+29 to Maneuver in Flight, Successes to Balance are critical successes instead.), Athletics +18, Deception +24, Diplomacy +20, Intimidation +20, Nature +22, Stealth +31, Survival +22, Thievery +23, Underworld Lore +20
Str 10 (+0), Dex 20 (+5), Con 21 (+5), Int 14 (+2), Wis 18 (+4), Cha 14 (+2)
Items +2 greater resilient greater shadow greater slick leather armor, staff of four winds (personal staff) (major perfect droplet)[SoM], backpack, bedroll, bottled air, chalk (10), decanter of endless water, flint and steel, greater gate attenuator, horn of fog, infiltrator thieves' tools, major goz mask[TV], major ring of cold resistance, rations (1 week) (2), rope (foot) (50), scroll of misty memory, scroll of misty memory, scroll of scrying ripples, scroll of scrying ripples, soap, torch (5), wand of choking mist (4th)[TV], waterskin, purse (1,909 pp, 11 gp, 2 sp, 5 cp)
--------------------
AC 37; Fort +31 (Crit failures are failures instead; half damage on failures vs. damaging effects., Successes are crit successes instead.); Ref +29 (Successes are crit successes instead.); Will +26; Successes vs. inhaled threats are crit successes instead., +1 circumstance bonus vs. inhaled threats.
HP 216; Resistances cold 15
--------------------
Speed 25 feet, swim 15 feet
Melee [1] [i]staff of four winds[/i] +22 (two-hand (1d8), air, evocation, magical, staff), Damage 3d4+2 B
Greater Kinetic Durability Your gate protects you even more. Your proficiency rank for Fortitude saves increases to legendary. When you roll a critical failure on a Fortitude save, you get a failure instead. When you fail a Fortitude save against an effect that deals damage, you halve the damage you take.
Kinetic Durability The sustenance of your inner gate counters harm that would come to your body. Your proficiency rank for Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.
Kinetic Quickness Your body flows with the elegance of a flame, a wave, a breeze. Your proficiency rank for Reflex saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Reflex save, you get a critical success instead.
Surprise Attack You spring into combat faster than foes can react. On the first round of combat, if you roll Deception or Stealth for initiative, creatures that haven’t acted are flat-footed to you.
Ancestry Feats Advanced General Training[APG], Multitalented, Natural Ambition, Wavetouched Paragon[LOCG]
Class Feats Aerial Boomerang, Air Cushion, Body Of Air, Call The Hurricane, Clear As Air, Cyclonic Ascent, Deflecting Wave, Driving Rain, Effortless Impulse, Four Winds, Ghosts In The Storm, Kinetic Activation, Lightning Dash, Rising Hurricane, Rogue Dedication, Weapon Infusion
General Feats Breath Control, Incredible Initiative
Skill Feats Aerobatics Mastery[APG], Experienced Smuggler, Foil Senses, Kip Up, Legendary Sneak, Pickpocket, Quiet Allies, Shadow Mark[APG], Slippery Prey[LOFB], Slippery Secrets, Steady Balance, Subtle Theft, Swift Sneak, Terrain Stalker
Other Abilities reflow elements, weapon specialization

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free demo available at https://herolab.online
Pathfinder and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc., and are used under license.

[Ed Reppert]

Probably just as well. Searching AoN for 6th level spells with the air trait I find these:

Elemental Confluence -- involves fire, earth, and water as well
Flame Vortex -- involves fire
Phantom Opera -- just air, does sonic damage

Guess I should look at heightening a lower rank spell.

[Calliope5431]

Quote:

kineticist still doesn't look like they have good damage

even 3 action overflow have lower damage than some good 2 action focus spell but are better at aoe

which is less valuable compare to focus down one enemy first or debuff multiple enemy

but as archetype it have massive and versatile level 2 to level 8 feat pool

competition for feat slot is fierce

Some analysis on this. It's not really fair, since you need to consider aura/impulse junctions as well as just base damage (the joys of actually having class features!) and also the value of the 3rd action.

For this analysis I'll be comparing the 2-action impulse blazing wave against the damage of the advanced elemental spell/advanced bloodline 2-action spells pulverizing cascade/ dragon breath, presumably what the OP was talking about (AoE focus spell damage doesn't get any better than this).

For kineticist, I'm assuming mono-fire with fire impulse junction and aura junction, plus aura shaping at level 10 (this is an autopick of a feat). If you want to, you can assume dual gate, and hence no aura junction until level 9 (or 13 if you desperately want a 3rd element). I've helpfully put those numbers in there too.

The blazing wave analysis runs from level 6 (when you can first take advanced elemental spell/advanced bloodline) to level 17. Once you hit 18, the kineticist has all shall end in flames which really changes the math, and once you hit 19 and 20 kineticist gets big action economy improvements that blow focus spells out of the water.

impulses vs. focus spells:

Advanced elemental spell/advanced bloodline are level 6 feats, so we start there. Blazing wave scales (with impulse junction) at 4d8 base + 1d8 per 2 character levels, pulverizing cascade/dragon breath scale at 5d6 base + 2d6 per 2 character levels.

Level 6: blazing wave deals 5d8+3 ~ 25 damage with aura junction, 22 without it, focus spells 5d6 ~ 17. Advantage: blazing wave.

Level 7: blazing wave deals 5d8+3 ~ 25 damage with aura junction, 22 without it, focus spells 7d6 ~ 24. Advantage: blazing wave with aura junction, focus spells without.

Level 8: blazing wave deals 6d8+4 ~ 31 damage with aura junction, 27 without it, focus spells 7d6 ~ 24. Advantage: blazing wave.

Level 9: blazing wave deals 6d8+4 ~ 31 damage with aura junction, 27 without it, focus spells 9d6 ~ 31. Advantage: tied with aura junction, focus spells without it.

Level 10: blazing wave deals 7d8+5 ~ 36 damage with aura junction, 31 without it, focus spells 9d6 ~ 31. At this point, aura shaping comes online, making it vastly more likely you have all of the enemies in your aura. Advantage: blazing wave with aura junction, tied without it.

Level 11: blazing wave deals 7d8+5 ~ 36 damage with aura junction, 31 without it, focus spells 11d6 ~ 38. Advantage: focus spells.

Level 12: blazing wave deals 8d8+6 ~ 42 damage with aura junction, 36 without it, focus spells 11d6 ~ 38. Advantage: blazing wave with aura junction, focus spells without it.

Level 13: blazing wave deals 8d8+6 ~ 42 damage with aura junction, 36 without it, focus spells 13d6 ~ 45. Advantage: focus spells.

Level 14: blazing wave deals 9d8+7 ~ 47 damage with aura junction, 42 without it, focus spells 13d6 ~ 45. Advantage: blazing wave with aura junction, focus spells without it.

Level 15: blazing wave deals 9d8+7 ~ 47 damage with aura junction. Focus spells 15d6 ~ 52. Advantage: focus spells. At this level, aura shaping expands again to 25 feet, so yeah, you're gonna have them in your aura pretty much always.

Level 16: blazing wave deals 10d8+8 ~ 53 damage with aura junction. Focus spells 15d6 ~ 52. Advantage: blazing wave.

Level 17: blazing wave deals 10d8+8 ~ 53 damage with aura junction. Focus spells 17d6 ~ 59. Advantage: focus spells.

Level 18: all shall end in flames deals 13d8+9 ~ 67 damage with aura junction, 58 without it. focus spells 17d6 ~ 59. Advantage: all shall end in flames.

Level 19: all shall end in flames deals 13d8+9 ~ 67 damage with aura junction, 58 without it. focus spells 19d6 ~ 66. Advantage: all shall end in flames with aura junction.

Level 20: all shall end in flames deals 15d8+10 ~ 77 damage with aura junction, 67 without it. focus spells 19d6 ~ 66. Advantage: all shall end in flames.

Tl;dr blazing wave comfortably leads for levels 5-8, after that it depends on who's in your aura and whether the level is odd or even - with focus spells ahead on odd-numbered levels and blazing wave ahead for even-numbered ones. More relevantly, blazing wave is pretty consistently ahead at the levels people are more likely to play: namely, those below 10. Once you hit level 18 and especially 19 and 20, all shall end in flames and the best action economy in the game mean that the kineticist solidly outdamages focus spell casters.

BUT, and I do want to draw attention to this, there's another thing to consider, and that's the value of your third action. The druid/sorcerer is at best throwing a demoralize or Recall Knowledge check. Meanwhile, the kineticist will be using elemental blast or switching on thermal nimbus , which automatically deals damage = level (with aura junction) to everyone who enters or starts their turn in the kineticist's aura. Either of these effects comfortably puts the kineticist in the lead for raw damage, and blasting also allows for decent focus-fire.

Also, you can run out of focus points in a fight. Not as likely with the new refocus rules, I'll grant you, but it's certainly not something you can ignore.

[Ravingdork]

Ed Reppert wrote:

Probably just as well. Searching AoN for 6th level spells with the air trait I find these:

Elemental Confluence -- involves fire, earth, and water as well
Flame Vortex -- involves fire
Phantom Opera -- just air, does sonic damage

Guess I should look at heightening a lower rank spell.

Did you limit it to a single tradition, or have other filters on? I found over 50 air spells when I searched.

Search Results

Edit: Oh, you said 6th-level spells. I suppose you can do variable spells that take on the trait depending on chosen spell options, such as Summon Elemental.

[Ed Reppert]

I searched for sixth level spells with the air trait. Then I widened it to spell ranks 1 to 6.

[Dubious Scholar]

One note - All Shall End in Flames is spectacular burst damage. It is not, however, the optimum DPR - Ignite the Sun sustain+Blazing Wave does more damage, and with Effortless Concentration you can (with some slight room for variance in rules interpretation) maintain two suns at a time while also unloading Blazing Wave every turn. And firing some blasts for good measure.

Final Gate (Channel+Blast), Effortless Concentration (Sun), Sustain Sun, Blast (Kinetic Pinnacle quickened), Blazing Wave. I believe that this is the highest DPR you can get with a kineticist, or close to it - it applies fire weakness five times per round (30-50 flat damage depending on blast hits), plus a total of 29d8 in reflex saves, and then two blasts for 8d8 each (7d8 with Furnace Form). Well, strictly speaking the second blast can also be Two-Element Blast with a dual gate to make it 6d10 mixed damage (the exact type depending on element), though adding another 6 expected damage is kind of meh at that point... If your GM decides you can't use Final Gate and Effortless Concentration together, you only lose the second blast (as Kinetic Pinnacle can be used to channel), and you can also drop blasts altogether (channel after Blazing Wave to turn on Thermal Nimbus instead).

Edit: Forgot that Ignite the Sun buffs your other fire impulses by 1d6 each. Level 20 pyrokineticists are terrifying.

[aobst128]

I think flying flame with a few close targets is better than blazing wave since you can keep thermal nimbus active. The crit fail effect on blazing wave is great though.

[Dubious Scholar]

Blazing Wave is used specifically because it's overflow - if your GM allows Final Gate and Effortless Concentration to be used together you want to end your turn with your aura offline so Final Gate activates.

[Calliope5431]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

One note - All Shall End in Flames is spectacular burst damage. It is not, however, the optimum DPR - Ignite the Sun sustain+Blazing Wave does more damage, and with Effortless Concentration you can (with some slight room for variance in rules interpretation) maintain two suns at a time while also unloading Blazing Wave every turn. And firing some blasts for good measure.

Yeah that's fair. Though I'd imagine in a short encounter all shall end in flames is going to do more, since ignite the sun takes a round to rev up.

Also it's arguable whether or not the damage from ignite the sun counts as a buff or as a separate damage instance that can trigger aura junction weakness. I can see either reading.

[Applied_People]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

a total of 29d8 in reflex saves, and then two blasts for 8d8 each (7d8 with Furnace Form).

Edit: Forgot that Ignite the Sun buffs your other fire impulses by 1d6 each. Level 20 pyrokineticists are terrifying.

I think I'm missing something on your math.

2x Sustain on Ignite the Sun = 2x 7d8 = 14d8
1x Blazing Wave with fire impulse junction = 12d8 at L20 +1d8 from Ignite the Sun = 13d8

So, I get 27d8 in Reflex save based damage.

For the blasts, I get:

At L20 with fire impulse junction: 5d8
Plus 1d8 from Furnace Form
Plus 1d8 from Ignite the Sun

So 7d8 per blast.

You could add some Strength damage to each via Weapon Infusion though.

What am I missing?

Could you be adding an additional 1d8 for the 2nd Sun? If so, that's called out as being only 1 die regardless of number of Suns.

Also, I think I'd prefer to get the 20 aura damage on everyone in my aura by keeping Nimbus up over a 2nd 1-action blast with MAP (avg. damage on a 7d8 hit is 31.5). I'm unlikely to hit with MAP, and I'm only hitting one creature anyway...if it's a solo boss, then fine. But otherwise, I'd keep Nimbus up.

[YuriP]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

One note - All Shall End in Flames is spectacular burst damage. It is not, however, the optimum DPR - Ignite the Sun sustain+Blazing Wave does more damage, and with Effortless Concentration you can (with some slight room for variance in rules interpretation) maintain two suns at a time while also unloading Blazing Wave every turn. And firing some blasts for good measure.

Final Gate (Channel+Blast), Effortless Concentration (Sun), Sustain Sun, Blast (Kinetic Pinnacle quickened), Blazing Wave. I believe that this is the highest DPR you can get with a kineticist, or close to it - it applies fire weakness five times per round (30-50 flat damage depending on blast hits), plus a total of 29d8 in reflex saves, and then two blasts for 8d8 each (7d8 with Furnace Form). Well, strictly speaking the second blast can also be Two-Element Blast with a dual gate to make it 6d10 mixed damage (the exact type depending on element), though adding another 6 expected damage is kind of meh at that point... If your GM decides you can't use Final Gate and Effortless Concentration together, you only lose the second blast (as Kinetic Pinnacle can be used to channel), and you can also drop blasts altogether (channel after Blazing Wave to turn on Thermal Nimbus instead).

Edit: Forgot that Ignite the Sun buffs your other fire impulses by 1d6 each. Level 20 pyrokineticists are terrifying.

Unfortunately you cannot use Final Gate and Effortless Impulse in the same turn because both compete for same time space thats you first action.

To receive the effects of Final Gate it needs to be your first action at same time to Effortless Impulse trigger is the beginning of your turn (before you use any action).
So if you use Final Gate you will use an action your turn is already begun so you no more is able to trigger Effortless Impulse, so if you want to use your Effortless Impulse you need to suppress your Final Gate action.

Instead you can use Thermal Nimbus Stance and switch Blazing Wave to Flying Flame to not disable your aura. This way you will loose 2 dmg dices (6,75 avg damage + 10 weakness) from Blazing Wave but you will do 20 dmg per enemy in your aura instead while keep the additional fire damage provided by the Ignite the Sun to your allies (and possible making the to get benefit from aura weakness depending from your GM interpretation if this additional damage can or cannot be considered from an impulse).

[Dubious Scholar]

Applied_People wrote:

Dubious Scholar wrote:

a total of 29d8 in reflex saves, and then two blasts for 8d8 each (7d8 with Furnace Form).

Edit: Forgot that Ignite the Sun buffs your other fire impulses by 1d6 each. Level 20 pyrokineticists are terrifying.

I think I'm missing something on your math.

2x Sustain on Ignite the Sun = 2x 7d8 = 14d8
1x Blazing Wave with fire impulse junction = 12d8 at L20 +1d8 from Ignite the Sun = 13d8

So, I get 27d8 in Reflex save based damage.

For the blasts, I get:

At L20 with fire impulse junction: 5d8
Plus 1d8 from Furnace Form
Plus 1d8 from Ignite the Sun

So 7d8 per blast.

You could add some Strength damage to each via Weapon Infusion though.

What am I missing?

Could you be adding an additional 1d8 for the 2nd Sun? If so, that's called out as being only 1 die regardless of number of Suns.

Also, I think I'd prefer to get the 20 aura damage on everyone in my aura by keeping Nimbus up over a 2nd 1-action blast with MAP (avg. damage on a 7d8 hit is 31.5). I'm unlikely to hit with MAP, and I'm only hitting one creature anyway...if it's a solo boss, then fine. But otherwise, I'd keep Nimbus up.

Pretty sure this is just me messing up my math because it was late at night.

[aobst128]

I just love how volatile pyrokinetisists are. Just standing around with thermal nimbus and incendiary aura is fun. Guaranteed effectiveness with groups and scales incredibly well.

[Calliope5431]

YuriP wrote:

To receive the effects of Final Gate it needs to be your first action at same time to Effortless Impulse trigger is the beginning of your turn (before you use any action).
So if you use Final Gate you will use an action your turn is already begun so you no more is able to trigger Effortless Impulse, so if you want to use your Effortless Impulse you need to suppress your Final Gate action.

Generally the ruling I've seen is that you have to use Effortless Impulse first but you can still use both. But there's an argument to be made in favor of the above interpretation too.

And Ignite the Sun does depend on you having it up for several rounds for maximum effectiveness. If your combats last 2 rounds it's less of an issue (which I've totally seen at high level, it is bonkers what you can do with rogues and other high level martial characters if they crit, or with kineticists and high level blasters if people crit fail).

You absolutely want to get max effectiveness out of your actions. At L20 you have 5 actions per turn plus a free sustain (maybe). You MUST start the turn without aura up in order to get the Final Gate free gather + blast (1 action), then you use the quickened action from Kinetic Pinnacle to blast (1 action), then you can either sustain an ignite the sun (1 action), blast (1 action), move (1 action), or use a 3-action overflow like all shall end in flames (or a 2-action one like blazing wave).

Thermal nimbus is so damaging it may well be worth losing out on Final Gate's bonus blast. But it is a giant opportunity cost, and you can't damage people with Nimbus until they enter or start their turns in it, so you have to leave it on after your turn...

Ideally you'd use an overflow reaction to switch off your aura, but that's really hard to pull off. If you go that route, I recommend multiclassing champion for the aura, to force people to attack you.

[Blakeg]

I will say I played both my first PF2ES game last night and played as a Fire/Wood Kineticist. It's fun and I made him a ranged blaster at lower levels and eventually his focus is going to be on AOE hazardous impulses.

With Fire and Wood, adding Metal gets you (at level 20 for comparison purposes)

Ravel of Thorns hazardous Damage 6
Rain of Razers hazardous damage 7
Hell of 1,000,000 Needles: hazardous damage 6
Scorching Column: Hazardous damage 14
Sanguivolent Roots (8): 9d6 per round save

Throw on living Bonfire, Fire vulnerability aura, and Molten Wire for a good time.

Rain of razers lasts 1 minute.Scorching columns last one round+sustain.
Only thing that sucks is both hell and roots are overflow+sustain actions so can't keep both going.

[YuriP]

Calliope5431 wrote:

Generally the ruling I've seen is that you have to use Effortless Impulse first but you can still use both. But there's an argument to be made in favor of the above interpretation too.

The interpretation about the use of both is based in the fact that Final Gate automatic free-action is that is "first action of your turn" and Effortless Impulse is a free-action that triggers when "Your turn begins" effectively preventing both to happen at same time because if you use the Final Gate free-action your turn is already begun and you no more is able to trigger it in this turn or if you use the trigger of Effortless Impulse it only happened because you suppressed your Final Gate free-action or you are already with your aura active.

Also it looks like "too good to be true" this interpretation of get 2 free-actions in the beginning of your turn.

Calliope5431 wrote:

And Ignite the Sun does depend on you having it up for several rounds for maximum effectiveness. If your combats last 2 rounds it's less of an issue (which I've totally seen at high level, it is bonkers what you can do with rogues and other high level martial characters if they crit, or with kineticists and high level blasters if people crit fail).

Yes you don't get Ignite the Sun full-power until the 2nd or 3rd round but during this preparation you are already making blasts and other dmg impulses while you are accumulating power. So if your opponent isn't strong enough to survive before you get your full power no problem its already dead at same time if its strong enough you will use all your potential against it.

IMO its one of the main advantages of kineticists over spellcasters. You don't have to try to guess how much power and resources you need to use or save every encounter. You can always thrown everything you have vs anyone.

[Squiggit]

YuriP wrote:

Also it looks like "too good to be true" this interpretation of get 2 free-actions in the beginning of your turn.

Having a feat work normally is not "too good to be true". I feel like people are torturing that phrase beyond all recognition.

[Calliope5431]

YuriP wrote:

The interpretation about the use of both is based in the fact that [url=Final Gate doesn't have a trigger. Something that's absolutely true due the description says it's an automatic free-action that you can suppress.

Yeah I think I had this discussion in another thread (or earlier in this one). It's plausible, but also it's quite likely that the level 19 feature was written this way specifically to get around the "free action on turn" trigger rule. Nobody really knows, and I lean towards the interpretation of "this feat you get at level 12 does not suddenly become worthless at level 19, that would be silly".

Quote:

Yes you don't get Ignite the Sun full-power until the 2nd or 3rd round but during this preparation you are already making blasts and other dmg impulses while you are accumulating power. So if your opponent isn't strong enough to survive before you get your full power no problem its already dead at same time if its strong enough you will use all your potential against it.

Don't disagree there. Just wanted to point out that in some fights All Shall End In Flames could well be the superior choice, because the fight's too short for Ignite the Sun to really matter.

[PossibleCabbage]

I would say "the 19th level class ability and 12th level class feat conflict with each other, even though they didn't take the easy step to signpost this by using the same language for both of their triggers when they did do this to clearly indicate the 12th level feat and a 16th level feat conflict" is an example of a reading that is "Too Bad To be True."

It's along the same lines as the reading that a Monk loses Mountain Stance if they jump, or a Magus loses Arcane Cascade immediately whenever their turn ends.

[Ravingdork]

Surely that's a topic better for a dedicated thread of its own, is it not?

[aobst128]

I hadn't fully comprehended what ignite the sun can do. Having 2 out with a free sustain, flying flame, and thermal nimbus, you've got 24d8 per round with a 2 round setup plus 50 from weakness and thermal nimbus at level 20. Holy crap.

Edit: the impulse junction might actually drop the suns damage dice down to d6s once you're sustaining them since you can only benefit from 1 impulse junction per turn. So 10d8 + 14d6. Still crazy.

[YuriP]

Squiggit wrote:

YuriP wrote:

Also it looks like "too good to be true" this interpretation of get 2 free-actions in the beginning of your turn.

Having a feat work normally is not "too good to be true". I feel like people are torturing that phrase beyond all recognition.

The complete text is:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 443 4.0 - Ambiguous Rules wrote:

Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

The main idea of this golden rule is not about a rule thats is misread but a rule that have multiple interpretations. So it was design specifically to deal with the rules as being read as they "work normally" but even read correctly can make "problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended". We don't know really what's the "work as intended" because we don't know the real intention behind the interaction between the 2 rules but getting 2 free-actions in the begining of your turn before you get your normal actions that isn't a normal way that the game usually works makes feels like "too good to be true".

[Deriven Firelion]

Maybe the 19th level ability is written differently specifically so it doesn't conflict with abilities that start with "Your turn begins." Though it isn't that hard to start a gate as it is.

[aobst128]

It does seem odd to have final gate compete with two other class feats before it. They do technically cover different actions so it diversifies your free action economy, but once you have a sustained effect going, effortless impulse will always take priority.

[YuriP]

Calliope5431 wrote:

YuriP wrote:

The interpretation about the use of both is based in the fact that [url=Final Gate doesn't have a trigger. Something that's absolutely true due the description says it's an automatic free-action that you can suppress.

Yeah I think I had this discussion in another thread (or earlier in this one). It's plausible, but also it's quite likely that the level 19 feature was written this way specifically to get around the "free action on turn" trigger rule. Nobody really knows, and I lean towards the interpretation of "this feat you get at level 12 does not suddenly become worthless at level 19, that would be silly".

I don't know if the "automatically" was specific written to workaround the restriction of unable to use 2 triggered actions from same trigger event or if its just to meet the flavor of that your element are a natural part of you that naturally manifests and with Final Gate is now more stronger than ever to a point that you actively need to suppress it to prevent it to manifests at same time that its usage is so natural that you can do it effortlessly.

So as I explained before. Its not normal to get 2 free-action at beginning of your turn. We don't see this in other classes and general rules also expects only 1 free-action in this step of your turn and also we have this time conflict of both need to be the first action to be completely valid.

In general I currently have more reasons to believe that both actions cannot be made at same time than the opposite. Also Paizo erratas have a long history to give the most restrict interpretation in these conflict cases than any more flexible interpretation. The general rule say that usually is "too good to be true" but is more like "if you get 2 possible interactions use the most restrictive one" like happened with the familiars where most creative interactions was restricted by erratas and even valet and independent obvious combinations was restricted.

Calliope5431 wrote:

Quote:

Yes you don't get Ignite the Sun full-power until the 2nd or 3rd round but during this preparation you are already making blasts and other dmg impulses while you are accumulating power. So if your opponent isn't strong enough to survive before you get your full power no problem its already dead at same time if its strong enough you will use all your potential against it.

Don't disagree there. Just wanted to point out that in some fights All Shall End In Flames could well be the superior choice, because the fight's too short for Ignite the Sun to really matter.

IMO the main advantage of All Shall End In Flames is for a more ranged focused build thats not directly designed to take advantage of fire weakness aura but to be able to hit a far distance taking advantage of the long range of this impulse.

Ravingdork wrote:

Surely that's a topic better for a dedicated thread of its own, is it not?

This thread already exists but I'm pointing this here also to prevent that some people misinterpret this as a pacified topic but its isn't. While some believe that able to do both free-actions is valid others don't. So be advised that some GMs may interpret this rules different from you, so talk with your GM before trust your build over it.

aobst128 wrote:

I hadn't fully comprehended what ignite the sun can do. Having 2 out with a free sustain, flying flame, and thermal nimbus, you've got 24d8 per round with a 2 round setup plus 50 from weakness and thermal nimbus at level 20. Holy crap.

Edit: the impulse junction might actually drop the suns damage dice down to d6s once you're sustaining them since you can only benefit from 1 impulse junction per turn. So 10d8 + 14d6. Still crazy.

Oh I didn't notice this. You are right. I will need to do some recalculations. Thanks to notice this.

Edit: Yeah. This diminishes the damage a little but didn't change the general result too much.

[Squiggit]

YuriP wrote:

So it was design specifically to deal with the rules as being read as they "work normally" but even read correctly can make "problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended".

Right. Problematic repercussions. Corner cases that don't make sense or break aspects of the game.

In this case, we're talking about two options for your class doing exactly what they say they do with no side effects or unintended results, because it's literally just the text of the feat. There's no "if you read this feat strangely it does something abusive" or "combining these two options causes an unintended third reaction." It is just the ability doing exactly what it says it does in a clear and obvious way.

... And the alternative ruling here is to cause a class feature to completely break and do nothing at all. Are we really going to pretend that's everything working as it should?

So I stand by the original sentiment.

[YuriP]

In fact this won't break the game will just make the kineticist even more vertically stronger even so the system is robust enough to deal with it yet we are talking about PF2 a system where the designers are pretty conservative.

Even when the things with dubious interpretation aren't outside the expected value when was revised by Paizo the are nerfed to an unimagined point when clarified. For example the Energy Mutagem.

The first version of this mutagem was release in The Fall of Plaguestone and in its major version (lvl 17) could do up to 18d6 breath and the only doubt is how much actions this breath can take. Some used 2-actions because its the normal action cost of most breaths other used 1-action like the Dragon's Breath Potion once that its the most similar item to this mutagen and that looks like to use 4-actions (in practice 2 turns) to use this ability was too much.
The only strange interaction of this thing was with Extend Elixir because it was able to double this damage by doubling its duration potentially making it to do 36d6 what was obvious outside the normal damage range of any AoE thing so was expected that they cap/restrict this in some review.

But when they release the Threasure Vault version of this mutagem the thing was even worse than ever expected. They simply caped the breath damage to 12d6 way bellow the normal interpretation of the item and at same time put that the number of required actions to breath is 2 basically forcing a player to really need 4 action to be able to breath in most cases requiring that you use 2 turn to use it.

Another example was like a pointed before. When APG was released and they added Valet and Independent many people was looked to they and said "oh! cool with this my alchemical familiar can useful to diminish one of my actions to get a potion putting it into my hand making me able to use up to 3-actions" but when the Paizo released the errata they said "no, no, no. We put both abilities in the same book to be able to use by the same familiar yet we don't want they interacting" and added the sentence forbidding the usage of independent with valet or any other familiar ability that requires a command (basically restricting it to move).

The books and erratas are full of nerfs and rewrites to most restrictive interpretation as possible. This is how the designers keeps the control to the book and prevents exploits. So when you see 2 or more interpretations to the same rule you don't need to have a doubt the most restrictive one is the strongly probably is the right. The idea of "too good to be truth" is not about "corner cases that don't make sense or break aspects of the game" but about anything that can be read as more beneficial to the character.

About "cause a class feature to completely break and do nothing at all" its not the case. Final Gate still useful to Channel in the most common cases like the first round when you aren't with aura enable or to re-enable it after the use of an overflow in your last actions in your last turn. At same time that Effortless Impulse will still be useful if you don't ended your last turn with your aura disabled due an overflow. The only restricted interaction here is to keep sustaining an impulse and overflowing every round and then want to re-enable your aura while sustain at same time for free.

[Deriven Firelion]

It would really be lame if Final Gate made Effortless Impulse pointless. Unless I see a big balance issue with it, I'm not going to punish a Kineticist for using Final Gate and Effortless Impulse. Effortless Impulse is a conscious decision. Final Gate feels like the energy has become so powerful it seethes out of the Kineticist at high level. I think thematically the two should mix.

[Ravingdork]

LOL. Everyone just needs to quiet down about the cool combos they discover, lest the developers nerf them.

[PossibleCabbage]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

It would really be lame if Final Gate made Effortless Impulse pointless. Unless I see a big balance issue with it, I'm not going to punish a Kineticist for using Final Gate and Effortless Impulse. Effortless Impulse is a conscious decision. Final Gate feels like the energy has become so powerful it seethes out of the Kineticist at high level. I think thematically the two should mix.

Yeah, having a feat you might have been using a lot for the last 6 levels that relates to a basic strategy you might have (i.e. "using sustain impulses") compete with a level 19 class feature seems like "maybe, when you get this, it's a dead feature" which is a bummer particularly at level 19.

[Calliope5431]

So what do people think the best and worst capstones (L18 feats for elements, that is) in combat are? I'd personally tilt towards Hell of a Million Needles , but we've already seen a lot of good analysis on Ignite the Sun and All Shall End in Flames .

Are Ride the Tsunami or The Shattered Mountain Weeps competitive with those?

[aobst128]

What final gate does mainly in my eyes, (although, it's not applicable to some builds) is allow you to use 3 action overflows every turn, which are your most powerful abilities. It just would unfortunately compete with your sustained effects. I'm on the side of it aught to work with effortless impulse but it does technically do different things.

[shroudb]

Calliope5431 wrote:

So what do people think the best and worst capstones (L18 feats for elements, that is) in combat are? I'd personally tilt towards Hell of a Million Needles , but we've already seen a lot of good analysis on Ignite the Sun and All Shall End in Flames .

Are Ride the Tsunami or The Shattered Mountain Weeps competitive with those?

Ignite is probably the strongest lvl 18 impulse.

The mounts is by far the worst: just some slight out of combat mobility, which at level 18 shouldn't be an issue to begin with. Utterly unusable in combat due to using standard mount rules (1 for 1 actions and more importantly, the actions you command this round get executed the next one...)

As for your question:

Shattered mountain compares really nicely to hell of million needles, maybe overall slightly stronger even:

Initial damage is slightly larger for mountain. Area larger for hell. I'd say about equal here.

Prone +difficult terrain vs impale, impale slightly better since it can waste more than 1 to get rid of.

3d10 ongoing for mountain vs 3d12 ongoing for hell. About the same.

Hazardous terrain for hell vs no needing sustain for mountain. This is the biggest upside of mountain and it's pretty hefty.

[Deriven Firelion]

Calliope5431 wrote:

So what do people think the best and worst capstones (L18 feats for elements, that is) in combat are? I'd personally tilt towards Hell of a Million Needles , but we've already seen a lot of good analysis on Ignite the Sun and All Shall End in Flames .

Are Ride the Tsunami or The Shattered Mountain Weeps competitive with those?

The imagery of Hell of a Million Needles is amazing. I don't know how it will actually work in battle. I know if I saw that, it would be frightening.

[Gortle]

Ravingdork wrote:

LOL. Everyone just needs to quiet down about the cool combos they discover, lest the developers nerf them.

I prefer the opposite view. If we mention it here and it makes it past the first errata, then it is working as intended.

[Martialmasters]

Ravingdork wrote:

LOL. Everyone just needs to quiet down about the cool combos they discover, lest the developers nerf them.

In my opinion it's better to discuss them so paizo can errata effectively

[Martialmasters]

My DM already hates free resourceless protector tree

I even just don't know if it's too strong or not. It does have counter play though.

[Deriven Firelion]

Martialmasters wrote:

My DM already hates free resourceless protector tree

I even just don't know if it's too strong or not. It does have counter play though.

It does look insanely strong. Most hits on it will be a crit, but still that level of damage reduction is nuts even with a crit. It's basically absorbing one hit a round at least, possibly a really big hit.

In reality, to crit it you would have to swing at the tree itself which wastes an attack. Otherwise it absorbs damage on the target, which it can do even more of.

Even Wood Double is an amazing defensive spell.

Feels like a little bit of power creep.

[YuriP]

Calliope5431 wrote:

So what do people think the best and worst capstones (L18 feats for elements, that is) in combat are? I'd personally tilt towards Hell of a Million Needles , but we've already seen a lot of good analysis on Ignite the Sun and All Shall End in Flames .

Are Ride the Tsunami or The Shattered Mountain Weeps competitive with those?

Worst

Crowned in Tempest's Fury: It's basically an electricity Thermal Nimbus + 1d12 electricity damage to your blasts only and +10 to your speeds. It's not bad but is meh for a lvl 18 impulse.

Infinite Expanse of Bluest Heaven: It's an incapacitation impulse without the Incapacitation trait. The problem is that the creatures becomes imune to 1 for 1 hour and the flat DC check has a good chance to be succeed. So it become useless pretty fast in a battle.

Rebirth in Living Stone: It's a strange impulse thats a stance and a sustainable impulse at same time. Considering that as a stance it competes with Assume Earth's Mantle only to get temp HP this doesn't worth at all.

The Shattered Mountain Weeps: It's a mediocre lvl 18 Overflow Impulse IMO. It does damage a instant damage but it's marginally better than Tremor, Its makes difficult and a "hazardous" terrain but the AoE is small and the CC is minimal when compared to Rattle The Earth. Once again it isn't bad because all these effect occur at same time but probably is more advantageous to use a CC a stronger a lower level CC focused or damage focused impulse.

Beasts of Slumbering Steel: Pretty situational Impulse. It gives to you and your party a very fast mounts and basically that's it.

Turn the Wheel of Seasons: The name is looks cool, but the effects are all just meh. The only main advantage of this is that this is a fire and forget in mostly encounters

Best

All Shall End in Flames: Its a damage focused AoE impulse. Its main advantage isn't its damage but its range and AoE. Used in a open area this could kill many enemies before they get closer.

Ignite the Sun: This is a well know one. It not only grants a 7d6 damage per sun but also boosts your Fire Impulses and your allies damage. Due fire weakness aura benefits more from many simultaneous fire impulses than a single stronger associated to other fire impulses this allows fire focused kineticists to a LOT of damage competing and usually wining vs the most strongest damage spell combinations.

Hell of 1,000,000 Needles: Its basically a physical version of All Shall End in Flames (same initial DMG, AoE and range) but without the increased dice from Impulse Junction but have others very good things to compensate. Its fail save makes the enemies immobilized and due your high is your class DC escape from this immobilization isn't an easy task. Also its sustainable abilities are pretty good allowing doing bit more damage with electricity and hazardous terrain in a pretty big area. Also its lvl 20 version does 2d6 more than lvl 20 of All Shall End in Flames easily compensating the damage dice difference between them.

Ride the Tsunami: Its damage isn't the best nor worse but its a very good field control Impulse because it allows to push targets to a good distance. If combined with Usurp the Lunar Reins and Return to the Sea in a closed room (something pretty common in dungeons) this will basically prevent most opponents to get closer while they drown and had their move speed effectively reduced to 1/3 and take damage.

Usurp the Lunar Reins: One of the best CC impulses. You can vary easily and fast force your enemies to deal with a very large difficult terrain. Also if you are in a closed structure you can rapidly try to drown your enemies while you do this while some water impulses get some benefits from fighting in water.

Rouse the Forest's Fury: It's basically a live Ignite the Sun. The Strike damage is pretty similar to Ignite the Sun avg damage and instead of just give some extra damage to you and your allies its helps to flank and your trees try can grapple every time the attack.

[Gaulin]

I've had/am having a hard time deciding on level 18/20 feat choices for sure. Two of the impulses are hell of a million needles and shattered mountain weeps. Some general observations;

Hell of 1 million needles (henceforth Ho1MN) has a much longer range and bigger area. Damage is higher initially and if hazardous terrain ticks a couple times it can do a ton of damage (especially if you can hit a precious metal weakness). Immobilize is a great condition to inflict, potentially disabling weaker enemies and for bosses you at least waste an action (assuming they don't just sit there and attack/cast at range). Combos well with other elements that could push or pull through the hazardous terrain. I also like the combo of being in your own Ho1MN (taking metal resistance junction), sustaining it to do electrical damage, allowing the electric damage to affect you but use consume power to empower your next metal impulse, and retch rusting/etc. Reflex is a little easier in general to target as a save compared to fortitude, or so I've seen people say.

On the other hand the hazardous terrain could really be a pain for your allies. Enemies with resistance are going to ignore the hazardous terrain (at level 18 that could be a good amount of enemies?). I personally am unsure about placing a cube also; I feel like you don't need a 30x30 area or it won't work, but it also seems silly to just place a small corner of the cube in a smaller room? I dunno exactly how that works.

The shattered mountain weeps (tSMW) does a lot of damage if enemies end up taking the 4d10 area damage (more than even all shall end in flames). Prone and difficult terrain in a 20ft aoe is useful, hopefully you can ground enemies which is good for a lot of earth impulses (though if they fly they could just use the arrest a fall reaction). The aoe dot doesn't need any actions to keep up.

On the other hand, other than recasting tSMW you can't get rid of the area which could definitely be a pain for allies. The extra damage in the area is only at the end of enemies' turns, so they can move to avoid it (of course that's half the point of it but still). If you cast it in an area that you're in, unlike Ho1MN, even if you have elemental resistance you will take damage at the end of your turn unless you also pick up kinetic pinnacle (which is a good choice but kind of annoying that you'd have to take it to avoid the aoe dot, even though it is a pretty specific scenario). The difficult terrain aoe is also maybe a little irrelevant when you have the earth aura impulse (at least the actual difficult terrain part).

[Squiggit]

I don't think shattered mountain is that bad. The damage isn't super amazing but it persists in a decently large area for a whole minute. On smaller battlemaps you can just force enemies to sit in it for a long time or take risky actions to get out of it.

Rebirth in Living Stone might be okay if it gets errata, because sustained stance doesn't really make sense.

Beasts I really don't get though. Being able to summon mounts is neat, but overland travel generally isn't a problem level 18 parties are too worried about. The short duration also feels kind of bad, just in the sense that if you're using this as an overland travel solution having to recast it every hour feels bad and doesn't make it feel like a capstone.

Turn the Wheel I'm not sure about. Dazzled(presumably) or Blinded for a round and Slowed for a round are pretty decent especially since they're large party friendly AoEs, but then the concealment from Autumn is unfriendly and the turn after you get Winter, which does an absurdly low amount of damage for a level 18-20 effect.

[aobst128]

Hmm. Could an air/water/metal kineticist rising hurricane a group of enemies through hell of 1m needles? Forcing them upwards and then back down as they fall. Would absolutely shred.

[Ravingdork]

Martialmasters wrote:

Gortle wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

LOL. Everyone just needs to quiet down about the cool combos they discover, lest the developers nerf them.

I prefer the opposite view. If we mention it here and it makes it past the first errata, then it is working as intended.

In my opinion it's better to discuss them so paizo can errata effectively

Jeez guys. It was said in jest.