Personally, I think Gor should be the Grey Master with it being revealed that in fact Thamir was Father Skinsaw.I wonder if Norgober dies and is broken up to different Gods?Idea for this scenario; Nor: The Reaper of Reputation, Gor: The Skinsaw Man, Ber: Master of the Blackfingers.If I was to split up Norgorber into Four different deities. I would probably do something like this:
- Blackfingers: Vorasha
- Father Skinsaw: Ajids
- Gray Master: Thamir
- Reaper of Reputation: Braismois
At least that is how I am currently looking at it. if one has other ideas, that would be cool too.
Ehh, I'm not sure how I feel about three of the aspects actually just being daemon harbingers, for various reasons. Firstly, it kind of goes against the idea of Norgorber being an ascended mortal--whilst Thamir is described as a halfing and thus can get in, the others are very firmly daemon demigods (what whilst, yes, there's nothing stopping a daemon becoming a god via the Starstone either, I still feel it a bit odd), plus there's the fact that it's mentioned Norg having originated from the town of Vyre (admittedly in a PF1 source from 2015, but still or note) which whilst would make sense for a pre-ascended halfling like Thamir, the idea of three daemon harbingers with various different allegances also just popping up there as well feels a stretch; plus outside Thamir none of them have any connections with Norg or live near his divine domain (Thamir's place being directly under Norg's, his followers usually also worshipping Norg, and the fact he popped up at practically the same time Norg did)--or in fact, even with each other really, sure Braismois and Vorasha are both interested in becoming Horsemen but that's about it. Think I do definitely prefer the idea that Norg was some group of mortal halfling criminals who decided to ascend together
Vorasha being a part of that set though does have the interesting implication that Trelmarixian has influence over Norg though, what's neat.Anyway, probably should just leave my thoughts there given how totally off topic this's getting lol.
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Xanderghul replacing Asmodeus would potentially make Cheliax even more frightening. He has access to magical secrets lost with Thassilon (and probably from Azlant itself). If he takes over as their patron, he would share those secrets. He'd want his servants to be The Best. There's loads of story potential there.
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Xanderghul replacing Asmodeus would potentially make Cheliax even more frightening. He has access to magical secrets lost with Thassilon (and probably from Azlant itself). If he takes over as their patron, he would share those secrets. He'd want his servants to be The Best. There's loads of story potential there.
Also him and and Abigail trying to court each other would be adorable and horrific for the rest of us, not one doting on the other but “They’re the only one worthy to be my partner, so I must one up them every chance I get”.
I had been hoping the Asmodeus would be usurped in this scenario, and I love the idea of Xanderghul becoming his replacement!
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Well, if it's going to be a god that's 'somebody's favorite,' it can't be Gorum, because I've never played with anybody who likes that guy. :)
Not-Crom is somehow even less interesting than Rovagug or Groetus or that giant mosquito-thing.
Ooh, I take that back. Hanspur. God of drowned rats, or whatever.
I think Gozreh is pretty safe for the same reason. He/she has to exist because nature and whatnot, but makes no effort to be memorable.
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I mean, Gozreh probably doesn't feature here because primarily his role is "have someone you can pray to for favorable weather."
But, the story you would tell out of "Gozreh's gone" is like "floods, hurricanes, storms, volcanic erruptions, tornadoes, earthquakes, everything's going wrong at once" prompt that you could spin off into anything a la Reign of Winter's threat of "Eternal Winter" took us all over.
If it is Urgathoa, perhaps ironically she can end up being eaten. I remember an old Monte Cooke book called Requiem for a God that gives info on what could happen when a deity dies. One topic in the book is that Divine essence and flesh has a variety of uses. So having her worshippers or an ambitious god-wannabe could start chowing down.(Those who have played Elden Ring and fought Rykard know that scene.)
Well, if it's going to be a god that's 'somebody's favorite,' it can't be Gorum, because I've never played with anybody who likes that guy. :)
Not-Crom is somehow even less interesting than Rovagug or Groetus or that giant mosquito-thing.
Ooh, I take that back. Hanspur. God of drowned rats, or whatever.
I like Hanspur. More than Norg-er-murder?
Hanspur is a roguish god but lacks the terrifying violence of Norg. I agree on Gorum. He has zero personality.
Well, if it's going to be a god that's 'somebody's favorite,' it can't be Gorum, because I've never played with anybody who likes that guy. :)
Not-Crom is somehow even less interesting than Rovagug or Groetus or that giant mosquito-thing.
Ooh, I take that back. Hanspur. God of drowned rats, or whatever.
I like Hanspur. More than Norg-er-murder?
Hanspur is a roguish god but lacks the terrifying violence of Norg. I agree on Gorum. He has zero personality.
Well, he does love war.Well, if it's going to be a god that's 'somebody's favorite,' it can't be Gorum, because I've never played with anybody who likes that guy. :)
Not-Crom is somehow even less interesting than Rovagug or Groetus or that giant mosquito-thing.
Ooh, I take that back. Hanspur. God of drowned rats, or whatever.
I like Hanspur. More than Norg-er-murder?
Hanspur is a roguish god but lacks the terrifying violence of Norg. I agree on Gorum. He has zero personality.
Aaaand??
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I'm committing to using this thread for this topic. Apologies for my part in scattering the discussion across like... four or five of these things, all vaguely about Pathfinder's future.
The three Starstone deities are, I think, too fundamental to Pathfinder's identity to loose - they help sell Absalom as a special place, and to tease PCs to follow in their footsteps. I also believe the poly lesbian trio in the Prismatic Ray are probably safe, because their deaths would prompt the bad kind of emotional reaction. Killing Pharasma risks killing this entire reality, while Gozreh and Nethys feel like fundamental forces of creation. Rovagug is the big bad. Shelyn gains a lot from having her brother still around, and he also exists to define the ancient nation of Nidal almost completely. Irori's super useful as a faux-Buddha as the spotlight increasingly falls on Tian Xia and Vudra. Iomedae goes hand-in-hand with the existence of the Champion class, along with wide swathes of the setting.
Who does that leave?
Abadar has previously been buddy-buddy with capitalists and colonizers, which can be tricky to write without getting into hot water. Asmodeus is awfully busy being the king of a Lawful Evil Hell in The Other Game. Something not many people have voiced is Lamashtu potentially meeting her end, as the birth/disfigurement/sexual horror can be very difficult for the average table to safely interact with.
Calistria and Torag can both be read as deities overly-linked to individual Ancestries, with the latter carrying a thorny legacy of ancient genocidal violence. I could imagine a world where Gorum falls to make room for some kind of elevated Orc hero, but he honestly feels similar to Gozreh and Nethys to me. There's no way Urgathoa gets dealt with unless Tar-Baphon is likewise being dealt with, and the latter is arguably the greatest villain walking Golarion in either edition.
I do wonder if the Sekmin getting Up To Shenanigans is enough to promote Ydersius into the Core 20, but it's hard to imagine non-Sekmin servants of his.
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Kinda not big on the "which deity is the most problematic to our modern more cuddly image? Let's get rid of him/her!" idea. That'd make for pretty bad motivation to write an epic story (which is the stated objective of this whole idea). I'd much rather see that the focus is firmly on the "what is the most epic story we can tell about this?" part, instead of it suddenly turning into another old Paizo vs. new Paizo thing.
My vote is on Asmodeus, because his permanent departure would both open cool new story beats (succession war in hell! Who's the new sugar daddy/mommy for Cheliax? Maybe we can get a female archdevil now?) and most likely will be a really epic story (maybe Saranrae can get her 'venge for Ihys, finally). My abject horror is still that it could be Saranrae, however people have brought forth a few good arguments in the meantime why it probably won't be her.
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Nethys I wouldn't think as fundamental force of creation in that he DID start out as mortal, so its not his existence is tied to magic itself like how Mystra is. Like arguably, Nethys dying would just release control over magic maybe?
Anyway, even if devs state that OGL didn't affect this event, I think that still leaves Asmodeus as candidate because of paizo moving away from D&Disms in general even before that.
Gorum I think works as orc god already so not sure there is point of him being replaced in that manner. Urgathoa I could see dying in unlikely scenario that Tar-Babhon ascends to godhood anyway
That said, I'm still curious of how many deities will temporarily die.
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Norgorber dying all the way feels unlikely to me, but I somehow hadn’t considered “killing” him being a shattering into gods for each mask/aspect.
Norgorber dying all the way feels unlikely to me, but I somehow hadn’t considered “killing” him being a shattering into gods for each mask/aspect.
You could kill one or two aspects of Norgorber. It's less in pursuit of "a kinder gentler Pathfinder" and more that there's not really anything interesting you can do with "Father Skinsaw" that is not a rehash of something they already did.
Particularly since the other three aspects of Norgorber are enough. You have to imagine that the assassins, thieves, and politicians who value subtlety in the cult of Norgober have to be annoyed by the "let's cut off some faces!" sect of their religion.
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Norgorber dying all the way feels unlikely to me, but I somehow hadn’t considered “killing” him being a shattering into gods for each mask/aspect.You could kill one of two aspects of Norgorber. It's less in pursuit of "a kinder gentler Pathfinder" and more that there's not really anything interesting you can do with "Father Skinsaw" that is not a rehash of something they already did.
Particularly since the other three aspects of Norgorber are enough. You have to imagine that the assassins, thieves, and politicians who value subtlety in the cult of Norgober have to be annoyed by the "let's cut off some faces!" sect of their religion.
And the person responsible for the death of Norgorber was...Norgorber? Wait, that can't be right.
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And the person responsible for the death of Norgorber was...Norgorber? Wait, that can't be right.If the god of murder is not the one who murdered the god of murder, than what even is he?
Really if anything should make the God of Murder more powerful it's the God of Murder transforming via murdering the God of Murder.
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I hadn't thought of Gorum being overthrown or bested and an orcish deity taking his place in the core pantheon. That would make a pretty cool story and also further cement orcs as an important bit of Paizo's branding identity.
I don't think that latter point is something they would have considered if this turns out to be the case but it'd be neat.
Ling time ago I saw a post in the boards that had Gorum's position being one that can be won by besting Gorum in combat. So the winner gains Gorum's armor and powers along with the responsibilities.
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I haven't played an AP yet where the skinsaw cultists didn't seem to be more or less randomly thrown in to have some clowns with skinmasks and big razors running around. Getting rid of that part of Norgorber I would be rather good with.
I'm gonna be the odd man out here and say I LOVE Father Skinsaw showing up. Every time my table sees some Skinsaw cult shenanigans they lose it. 'These clowns again!?'
*Spoilers for AoE* When they found out the WHOLE AP was Norgy-themed they went rabid for it. Especially with ANOTHER Vancaskerkin tied up in it?! Beautiful. Absolutely wonderful. Love that weird guy. *end spoilers*
Gorum getting yote by an orc and being replaced with Orcrum. It's an orc woman, right? A femme war god would be AMAZING for the setting, especially considering how society has rightfully fallen in love with strong muscular women lately, thank the gods. Plus with Orcs becoming Core, we could use a cultural deity for them.
In regards to father skinsaw, one of the things with it is that aspect seems almost like a copy of ajids aspect, heck they are both called father though in Ajids' case its Father Flense. His deific obidence even requires multilation.
Now I like Father Skinsaw / Ajids, they make great bad guys. However they don't fit the other aspects, and like others said, I got to imagine that the churches following the other aspects are annoyed at the cult.
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I think ye people should read on Norgorber lore before making quick judgement though, because Skinsaw Cult is FASCINATING.
Why? Because its predates Norgorber(forgot by how much, like just pre ascension or by centuries), originating from same city as Norgorber :p That is reason why they are basically Norgorber's religious fundamentalists, they are the oldest of four Norgorber cults.
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Something something four halflings in a trenchcoat la dee da dee da...
The Gray Master (Rogue), Blackfingers (Alchemist) and the Reaper of Reputation (Bard) team up to gank the Skinsaw Man (Barbarian), but find out to their eternal regret that he was the best fighter...
"Crap, I knew we had that crazy murderclown in the party for a reason!"
And the person responsible for the death of Norgorber was...Norgorber? Wait, that can't be right.Norgorber dying all the way feels unlikely to me, but I somehow hadn’t considered “killing” him being a shattering into gods for each mask/aspect.You could kill one of two aspects of Norgorber. It's less in pursuit of "a kinder gentler Pathfinder" and more that there's not really anything interesting you can do with "Father Skinsaw" that is not a rehash of something they already did.
Particularly since the other three aspects of Norgorber are enough. You have to imagine that the assassins, thieves, and politicians who value subtlety in the cult of Norgober have to be annoyed by the "let's cut off some faces!" sect of their religion.
It turned out that Norgorber was really just the friends (or enemies?) we made along the way...
The theory for my group has been that norgorber has been four separate people either the whole time or at least when they were mortal, I wonder if this coming out and then causing a split into four distinct deities for the different aspects (and this knocking them into not strong enough to be core 20) would count as the death of a god
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The theory for my group has been that norgorber has been four separate people either the whole time or at least when they were mortal, I wonder if this coming out and then causing a split into four distinct deities for the different aspects (and this knocking them into not strong enough to be core 20) would count as the death of a god
I do seriously find it amusing if Norgorber was the first full on *group of adventurers* that took on the Test of the Starstone like it was just another dungeon.
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The theory for my group has been that norgorber has been four separate people either the whole time or at least when they were mortal, I wonder if this coming out and then causing a split into four distinct deities for the different aspects (and this knocking them into not strong enough to be core 20) would count as the death of a godI do seriously find it amusing if Norgorber was the first full on *group of adventurers* that took on the Test of the Starstone like it was just another dungeon.
This is the reality for my game as well, they were 4 halflings from the Taldan empire, all different kinds of rogues, who came together to form a crew, or were brought together by a fixer. "Norgorber" was their code word/password. Maybe they were sent into the cathedral to steal the Starstone, maybe they wanted to take the trial, I've always held off solidifying that until I have players to solve the mystery.
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Kinda not big on the "which deity is the most problematic to our modern more cuddly image? Let's get rid of him/her!" idea. That'd make for pretty bad motivation to write an epic story (which is the stated objective of this whole idea). I'd much rather see that the focus is firmly on the "what is the most epic story we can tell about this?" part, instead of it suddenly turning into another old Paizo vs. new Paizo thing.
My vote is on Asmodeus, because his permanent departure would both open cool new story beats (succession war in hell! Who's the new sugar daddy/mommy for Cheliax? Maybe we can get a female archdevil now?) and most likely will be a really epic story (maybe Saranrae can get her 'venge for Ihys, finally). My abject horror is still that it could be Saranrae, however people have brought forth a few good arguments in the meantime why it probably won't be her.
People liking a given deity can actually be a strong incentive to kill off said deity. It reminds me of the old debate about the death of Matsu Tsuko in L5R. They chose this because it was the most heart-wrenching event for a good portion of the fanbase and it really shook the status quo to its core.
Now, I do not believe it will be Sarenrae because the Sun dying meaning her death is just too obvious for the crafty tellers of stories we have in Paizo.
I'd love it to be something along the lines of Cheliax rebelling against Asmodeus due to the how far Cheliax has fallen in the last 15 years so they work to get Xanderghul into a position to replace him.
But also killing off a beloved, good deity would be FANTASTIC!
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This is the reality for my game as well, they were 4 halflings from the Taldan empire, all different kinds of rogues, who came together to form a crew, or were brought together by a fixer. "Norgorber" was their code word/password. Maybe they were sent into the cathedral to steal the Starstone, maybe they wanted to take the trial, I've always held off solidifying that until I have players to solve the mystery.The theory for my group has been that norgorber has been four separate people either the whole time or at least when they were mortal, I wonder if this coming out and then causing a split into four distinct deities for the different aspects (and this knocking them into not strong enough to be core 20) would count as the death of a godI do seriously find it amusing if Norgorber was the first full on *group of adventurers* that took on the Test of the Starstone like it was just another dungeon.
If you're doing this, I'd personalyl make Thamir the fixer. It's said that he was most likely ascended to pay some favour he did to Norg as a mortal, so that'd track.
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I do seriously find it amusing if Norgorber was the first full on *group of adventurers* that took on the Test of the Starstone like it was just another dungeon.This is the reality for my game as well, they were 4 halflings from the Taldan empire, all different kinds of rogues, who came together to form a crew, or were brought together by a fixer. "Norgorber" was their code word/password. Maybe they were sent into the cathedral to steal the Starstone, maybe they wanted to take the trial, I've always held off solidifying that until I have players to solve the mystery.
Norgorber could also include name elements from three of the four. Skinsaw Man, Gray Master and Blackfingers contributed the Nor, the Gor, and the Ber, but the Reaper of Reputation, the one more focused on lies, secrets, politics, etc. (whom I picture as the Bard of the group. being a Barbarian, Rogue/Assassin, Alchemist and Bard) gave nothing, and not even a single syllable of their 'deadname' exists to identity them.
But it's just idle fancy on my part, like the notion that Desna (Ia! Ia!) is a many limbed insectile Great Old One / Elder God that predates humanity (and only in recent aeons has taken on a 'pretty' form, for our comfort) and is the only one of her kind who has any fondness for mortals as anything other than an appetizer.
But it's just idle fancy on my part, like the notion that Desna (Ia! Ia!) is a many limbed insectile Great Old One / Elder God that predates humanity (and only in recent aeons has taken on a 'pretty' form, for our comfort) and is the only one of her kind who has any fondness for mortals as anything other than an appetizer.
I also think the Desna's true form is eldritch in nature. I do think she was created in this universe from the seal, and isn't necessarily related to the Elder Gods even if they look like kin. Something about the vast, unknowable primordial nature of the current reality she set off to explore molded her form. It was only when coming back to structure and reason when she realized that she was monstrous.
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I also think the Desna's true form is eldritch in nature. I do think she was created in this universe from the seal, and isn't necessarily related to the Elder Gods even if they look like kin. Something about the vast, unknowable primordial nature of the current reality she set off to explore molded her form. It was only when coming back to structure and reason when she realized that she was monstrous.
But it's just idle fancy on my part, like the notion that Desna (Ia! Ia!) is a many limbed insectile Great Old One / Elder God that predates humanity (and only in recent aeons has taken on a 'pretty' form, for our comfort) and is the only one of her kind who has any fondness for mortals as anything other than an appetizer.
I could see her at least in part going to more of a 'pretty butterfly lady' appearance simply because she wanted to be the goddess of dreams, and her previous appearance, no matter her kindly intentions, was only causing nightmares...
But when she fluttered down into the Abyss and ripped that demon lord schmuck Aolar's face off? Oh, it was on, and her 'pretty butterfly lady' costume was the first thing to hit the floor when the claws came out.
Even tentacle monsters can find love!
From a Remaster perspective:
I could see Asmodeus, who is also used in DnD, even if he is a mythological character.
This makes sense considering that not only do both Pathfinder and some DnD use Asmodeus. But they also use a very similar version of Asmodeus. Just as Pathfinder avoids using Tiamat even though the name is from mythology, the common idea of a multi-headed god of evil dragons IS from DnD content.
Changing up Asmodeus could be a way to avoid similar legal issues.
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If they do kill off Asmodeus, then that kinda makes the unleashing of the Rough Beast less likely since he's the guy who created the lock that seals him in the demiplane at the centre of the world - with him would go the knowledge of how it was made, or how to get through it. But if they do, given Golarion takes a lot of classical influence, I could see Dispater rising to replace him. They both fill a similar niche, and Dispater is arguable just as close to what Asmodeus is meant to be - a clear analogue to Satan who, though evil, keep their word - plus he's got a Hades/Persephone deal with Erecura a Hades/Zagreus deal with Ragathiel that would be neat to flesh out rather than just being The Big Red Guy who, let's be honest, doesn't have a lot of personality. Dispater brings some character complexity to his evil.
I don't know where it would leave Cheliax's pacts though, unless Asmodeus was very foresighted and included clauses that tied them to "the ruler of Hell" rather than Asmodeus himself. You could even end up with the Archdukes going to war with each other, but ending up settling on a joint council, suspiciously glaring at each other across a table every few aeons and keeping each other in check because disrupting the balance of power benefits nobody.
I think that Asmodeus' last act would be to hurl the key somewhere into the multiverse. "Après Moi, le deluge." That threatens basically everyone and everything, but it also potentially lets Hell avoid a civil war. The could archdevils rule jointly, and whichever child of Hell finds the key and presents it becomes the new boss.