Which core deity will we lose?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Jan Caltrop wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
AvarielGray wrote:
Re: Who I think the last two safe will be, I'd put money on Abadar being safe (badum tsh) because if he dies I'm fairly sure the world's economy will just break. And I think Gozreh will be safe because how do you kill the wind? The sea? And why? What sort of motive do they have? (Unless the culprit is Team Magma.) But then they are called the Godsrain Prophecies...
Regarding Abadar, the current year on Earth in the setting is 1929.
As if crises of overproduction were aberrations that needed special pleading to be explained, and not a perfectly normal part of capitalism.

Honestly I'd been interpreting it the other way around; that it weakened Abadar at JUST the right moment to make something actually fatal.

...that got me thinking; the church of Abadar would likely actively try to PREVENT stuff like that from happening. Or well, if not the church as an entity, then at least it would be something that they'd understand as against his vision, if they thought about it. As I understand it, Abadar isn't a god of "capitalism", but rather "commerce (including capitalism) in service to civilization"; and he'd feel much the same towards stuff like *gestures vaguely*, as a god of growth and healing would feel towards cancer. Parts of it being overactive, in detriment to the whole.

So he is like Waukeen from Forgotten Realms?

Scarab Sages

Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
Arkat wrote:
Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
So with the revelation that this week is a member of the Godclaw, who are y'alls bets on the remaining two?

???

Do you mean remaining three of the Godclaw pantheon?

Yes, since Asmo is already safe.

Of the 5 Godclaw deities, Asmodeus and Irori have been marked Safe. If there is one more to be marked Safe next week, that means one other members of the Goclaw will be marked Safe since you are suggesting two will NOT be safe.

So of Abadar, Torag, and Iomedae, I sure hope it's Iomedae who will be safe, but somehow I suspect it will be Torag who will be Safe. He's the head of the Dwarven pantheorn after all.

By process of elimination, I'm guessing of the Godclaw pantheon, it will be Iomedae and Abadar who will be in jeopardy.

Paizo Employee Community and Social Media Specialist

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We have ONE final reveal in store! Who is the final deity we are going to announce is safe before we let you stew in your own minds for about a week?

Scarab Sages

Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
We have ONE final reveal in store! Who is the final deity we are going to announce is safe before we let you stew in your own minds for about a week?

Torag


Torag, Gorum or Gorzeth, Shelyn is someone kept close to the wire given how Desna was marked safe.


I'm hoping it's Lamashtu. I'm real curious to see what her prophecy would say. I'm curious about pretty much all of them, but she's near the top of my list.


I think if Iomedae isn't dead, then this final prophecy will be hers.


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Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
We have ONE final reveal in store! Who is the final deity we are going to announce is safe before we let you stew in your own minds for about a week?

Sarenrae.

The "watch the sun go out" thing from Stolen Fate is a red herring, Golarion already did an "age of Darkness". The Goddess of the Sun and Fire not miraculously resurrecting herself would be inherently weird given the related themes.

The whole "Starfinder canon has no bearing on this" was technically true, but you've got to have a "Sun God" around and that person would automatically get elevated to "Core 20" prominence and nobody would tap Arazni to do that job.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
We have ONE final reveal in store! Who is the final deity we are going to announce is safe before we let you stew in your own minds for about a week?

Sarenrae.

The "watch the sun go out" thing from Stolen Fate is a red herring, Golarion already did an "age of Darkness". The Goddess of the Sun and Fire not miraculously resurrecting herself would be inherently weird given the related themes.

The whole "Starfinder canon has no bearing on this" was technically true, but you've got to have a "Sun God" around and that person would automatically get elevated to "Core 20" prominence and nobody would tap Arazni to do that job.

But can you imagine that though?

"Hey, uh, new girl? There's someone here to see you."

*Arazni turns, to behold an ABSOLUTELY MAGNIFICENT dragon*

"Arazni, was it? I'm Shizuru. I have enough to deal with on my favourite continent, so I'm here to show you how to properly represent the Sun to these people."

Liberty's Edge

Still hoping for Rovagug's What If.

Radiant Oath

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

That would be pretty incredible in a "well, NOW what?!" kind of way.

Every new Prophecy makes me more and more convinced it'll be Iomedae. She gets to make the grand sacrifice she feels she should have made for Arazni during the Shining Crusade, Arazni gets some emotional turmoil over having pushed her away beforehand and needing to reassess her worldview, some sparks of her old goodness igniting and shining through her bitterness, the church weathering the death and continuing on because they've been through a God's death before and Iomedae would still want them to do what's right, power or no power, and Arazni's story comes full-circle as she ascends to the Core 20 as the perfect set-up for a new beginning for Golarion.

It all just CLICKS too well in my BA in English brain.

Liberty's Edge

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

That would be pretty incredible in a "well, NOW what?!" kind of way.

Every new Prophecy makes me more and more convinced it'll be Iomedae. She gets to make the grand sacrifice she feels she should have made for Arazni during the Shining Crusade, Arazni gets some emotional turmoil over having pushed her away beforehand and needing to reassess her worldview, some sparks of her old goodness igniting and shining through her bitterness, the church weathering the death and continuing on because they've been through a God's death before and Iomedae would still want them to do what's right, power or no power, and Arazni's story comes full-circle as she ascends to the Core 20 as the perfect set-up for a new beginning for Golarion.

It all just CLICKS too well in my BA in English brain.

In the thread about The Godsrain Prophecies Part Seven, Kobold Catgirl and I had some spoilered debates about Iomedae's death that you might enjoy.

Paizo Employee Community and Social Media Specialist

No hint this week, so.... whats everyones final guess? And how would YOU end the Prophecies if it were up to you?

Scarab Sages

Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
No hint this week, so.... whats everyones final guess? And how would YOU end the Prophecies if it were up to you?

Again...Torag will be declared "Safe."


Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
No hint this week, so.... whats everyones final guess? And how would YOU end the Prophecies if it were up to you?

For who’s being declared safe—I’d guess you’d want to end with a bang, so Shelyn, Sarenrae, Iomedae, Abadar, or Rovagug. Or Norgorber, if his true identity was revealed in his death prophecy maybe?

I’m going to hold off on my final death prediction until the final Prophecy, since, as you might be able to tell, I have a lot of trouble deciding on one thing, and any narrowing it down is helpful. Also, I’ll probably spend a while making my final list, and no sense wasting time!

Paizo Employee Community and Social Media Specialist

Perfectly valid. Im excited to see what everyone's lists look life after tomorrow.


Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
No hint this week, so.... whats everyones final guess? And how would YOU end the Prophecies if it were up to you?

My final guess would be Torag, since one of the hints we have is that he's preparing for something so I imagine he maybe heard one of these prophecies, recognizes the commonalities in what's happening irl (or seen some signs one of his allied gods is in trouble), and has gone on the defensive.


The ones I'm hoping for are Iomadae or Lamashtu, because I like them both and want them marked safe. I'd include others but some I am all but certain won't be marked for purposes of hype.

If I could pick someone though, I would probably go with Rovagug. Reading about a possible death of the biggest bad sounds like a great note to end on.


Well, last week I guessed Gozreh might be the last of the ten put on the safe list, but that's still just a wild guess. I'll stick to it, because, silly as it sounds, getting four across at this point amuses me in a 'godly game of bingo' way

Runner up would be Torag. I think Paizo might be holding Shelyn's and Sarenrae's fate hostage so I have to keep tuning in.

Diabolical

So am predicting whoever is SAFE this round, it won't be the Dawnflower or the Eternal Rose.

And I would LOVE to be proven wrong on that ;)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

From the beginning, I have felt like the choice was going to be a god that would look pretty blowing up in the sky.

While for Golarion game development reasons I still want it to be Saranrae (let's give adventurers a reason to go to Padishah Empire of Kelesh!), the fact that we haven't gotten a character campaign guide to wardens of wildwood yet and the live stream comming up so soon does make me wonder if it wont be Gozreh. You'd think their footprint would be all over the Wardens of Wildwood AP if they were going to be sticking around, but I haven't seen or heard anything like that.

Goreh Blowing up in the sky could be a beautiful sight of rain or leaves so would still fit my original prediction as well, and the only PF2 AP that it would be slightly disruptive to would be Extinction curse, and even then, those Gozrehens have gone off the dee pend enough they don't need a living god to give them power.

I am still hoping for Sarenrae, but moving Gozreh squarely into my #2 guess, and admiting that, at this point, it is probably more likely.


Unicore wrote:
While for Golarion game development reasons I still want it to be Saranrae (let's give adventurers a reason to go to Padishah Empire of Kelesh!), the fact that we haven't gotten a character campaign guide to wardens of wildwood yet and the live stream comming up so soon does make me wonder if it wont be Gozreh. You'd think their footprint would be all over the Wardens of Wildwood AP if they were going to be sticking around, but I haven't seen or heard anything like that.

If I'm not wrong, Gozreh not really needed for Wildwood. It's more like Elemental Plane of Wood AP, and I think that Green Faith is better then Gozreh.


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Rovagug....

is...........

Safe!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kavlor wrote:
Unicore wrote:
While for Golarion game development reasons I still want it to be Saranrae (let's give adventurers a reason to go to Padishah Empire of Kelesh!), the fact that we haven't gotten a character campaign guide to wardens of wildwood yet and the live stream comming up so soon does make me wonder if it wont be Gozreh. You'd think their footprint would be all over the Wardens of Wildwood AP if they were going to be sticking around, but I haven't seen or heard anything like that.
If I'm not wrong, Gozreh not really needed for Wildwood. It's more like Elemental Plane of Wood AP, and I think that Green Faith is better then Gozreh.

I guess we’ll see if the players guide for WoW comes out before Tuesday, but I think not mentioning Gozreh in such a nature focused AP would be a pretty big red flag, while mentioning Gozreh as a good player option, then killing them off right afterwards would make a lot of folks angry.

Liberty's Edge

Unicore wrote:
Kavlor wrote:
Unicore wrote:
While for Golarion game development reasons I still want it to be Saranrae (let's give adventurers a reason to go to Padishah Empire of Kelesh!), the fact that we haven't gotten a character campaign guide to wardens of wildwood yet and the live stream comming up so soon does make me wonder if it wont be Gozreh. You'd think their footprint would be all over the Wardens of Wildwood AP if they were going to be sticking around, but I haven't seen or heard anything like that.
If I'm not wrong, Gozreh not really needed for Wildwood. It's more like Elemental Plane of Wood AP, and I think that Green Faith is better then Gozreh.
I guess we’ll see if the players guide for WoW comes out before Tuesday, but I think not mentioning Gozreh in such a nature focused AP would be a pretty big red flag, while mentioning Gozreh as a good player option, then killing them off right afterwards would make a lot of folks angry.

The Player's Guide should arrive next week according to the product thread.

Which might be a clue that it is Gozreh if you are right.


Ridge wrote:

Well, last week I guessed Gozreh might be the last of the ten put on the safe list, but that's still just a wild guess. I'll stick to it, because, silly as it sounds, getting four across at this point amuses me in a 'godly game of bingo' way

Runner up would be Torag. I think Paizo might be holding Shelyn's and Sarenrae's fate hostage so I have to keep tuning in.

Diabolical

So am predicting whoever is SAFE this round, it won't be the Dawnflower or the Eternal Rose.

And I would LOVE to be proven wrong on that ;)

Okay. I admit it, Rovagug wasn't even in my top three guesses for 'safe' this week.

Bravo, Paizo. That'll keep me humble

Liberty's Edge

So, our applicants for dear divine departed are as follows, with my comments on them being the one :

Iomedae : the Paladin goddess with great alchemy dealing with Arazni = highly unlikely

Torag : the dwarven god who just had an AP showing how he could become a better god = highly unlikely

Sarenrae : one third of the Prismatic Ray = unlikely

Shelyn : see Sarenrae + we had 2 prophecies showing what would happen if she suffered a lot = highly unlikely

Abadar : the 1929 thing might be a clue but I feel having to deal with economic crisis would be both boring and too close to RL = unlikely

Gozreh : too close to RL and the death of the dual deity, not to mention Herzog = rather unlikely

Calistria : the elven goddess. Many players like her and she has an unusual portfolio for a main deity = highly unlikely

Gorum : the god of war and bloodshed. Who better to die and start a War of Immortals ? = my bet

Norgorber : I cannot for the life of me imagine how you kill the god of secrets without revealing who he is, or creating a secret that will obsess players far more than Aroden's death. Also the god of serial killers well established in the setting is hard to replace = highly unlikely

Lamashtu : extremely interesting goddess = extremely unlikely

So, I think it will be Gorum.


I'm still betting on Torag for reasons I can no longer recall. Gorum is my second pick. Dunno who is in my third slot; I've heard pretty compelling cases for Iomadae, Gozreh, and now Lamashtu, with her apparently not showing up in any prophecy.

Liberty's Edge

Perpdepog wrote:
I'm still betting on Torag for reasons I can no longer recall. Gorum is my second pick. Dunno who is in my third slot; I've heard pretty compelling cases for Iomadae, Gozreh, and now Lamashtu, with her apparently not showing up in any prophecy.

I believe the last is a red herring.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
I'm still betting on Torag for reasons I can no longer recall. Gorum is my second pick. Dunno who is in my third slot; I've heard pretty compelling cases for Iomadae, Gozreh, and now Lamashtu, with her apparently not showing up in any prophecy.
I believe the last is a red herring.

I would be extremely glad if you were right.

Anyway, with my friends I've placed Lamashtu as my prediction for the dying one so at least I can have a slight W no matter the outcome.


Perpdepog wrote:
I'm still betting on Torag for reasons I can no longer recall. Gorum is my second pick. Dunno who is in my third slot; I've heard pretty compelling cases for Iomadae, Gozreh, and now Lamashtu, with her apparently not showing up in any prophecy.

Re: Torag—maybe you heard about how, in an interview with the podcast Know Direction last summer, Luis Loza said "I may be intentionally seeding the idea that like, dwarves had to figure out how to like, live without Torag. Or like, maybe Torag isn't the end-all be-all for things. There might just be something going on there that, uh, we'll get to learn about over the coming, uh, months, coming years about what might be happening with that."?

Probably was in reference to the Sky King AP, especially because I doubt they would do two dwarf-heavy events in a row, but still. Maybe they’re doing that trope where you develop a character then kill them off? That might be a bit cheap writing for Paizo, though…


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We do have a hint that Torag is preparing for something - but we don't know or have any hint towards what that something may be.


Did they say that only one of the Core 20 will die? Maybe someone else's death kicks off the war, and at some point in there Torag heroically sacrifices himself for some reason or another, so the dwarves aren't a focus for most of the war but have a lot to do in the aftermath?


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ornathopter wrote:
Did they say that only one of the Core 20 will die? Maybe someone else's death kicks off the war, and at some point in there Torag heroically sacrifices himself for some reason or another, so the dwarves aren't a focus for most of the war but have a lot to do in the aftermath?

Yep, they did in a reddit post I believe

Paizo Employee Community and Social Media Specialist

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ornathopter wrote:
Did they say that only one of the Core 20 will die? Maybe someone else's death kicks off the war, and at some point in there Torag heroically sacrifices himself for some reason or another, so the dwarves aren't a focus for most of the war but have a lot to do in the aftermath?

One (1) of the Core 20 are gone. Aroden isnt coming back to get offed again and the slain deity doesnt come back at the end of things.


The OTHER prospect is that the 'removal' of a deity may not spark war, but instead chaos and confusion (no, not the alignment thing).

Particularly as the 'rules' of the game have changed rather dramatically and anyone can be the better deity (or worse as so befits them).

The artificial shackles that held the faith construct in place are no longer valid.

Golarion would be improved (in some ways) with removal of stern enforcement of wealth accumulation.


The thing I just keep coming back to about the death of Torag is that the Dwarves, specifically, are going to be just fine of that happens. Dwarves are well-versed in the art of orderly succession since each of them expects to have their responsibilities assumed by their descendants. So Folgrit (his widow); and Magrim, Angradd, and Dranngvit (his siblings) are just going to have to take over Torag's responsibilities in the interim.

I think it would have more effect on all the non-Dwarves who have a fondness for Torag, like blacksmiths and engineers.

So if you were going to kill Torag, it would be less a story about "what do we do if Torag isn't around anymore" and more a story about "the circumstances of his death and what that entails."


PossibleCabbage wrote:

The thing I just keep coming back to about the death of Torag is that the Dwarves, specifically, are going to be just fine of that happens. Dwarves are well-versed in the art of orderly succession since each of them expects to have their responsibilities assumed by their descendants. So Folgrit (his widow); and Magrim, Angradd, and Dranngvit (his siblings) are just going to have to take over Torag's responsibilities in the interim.

I think it would have more effect on all the non-Dwarves who have a fondness for Torag, like blacksmiths and engineers.

So if you were going to kill Torag, it would be less a story about "what do we do if Torag isn't around anymore" and more a story about "the circumstances of his death and what that entails."

This is basically why I've landed on Torag as my guess.


Which is basically why I don't see how it can be Torag. It's just too inconsequential. If even the dwarves aren't that bothered, who else is going to care? Blacksmiths and engineers (who aren't a major constituency) can go to Brigh, for example.

I'll pick Gorum or Gozreh.


Gorum is my top pick. If there's anybody who's going to pick a fight with something that one should not pick a fight with, it's going to be Gorum. All the other gods have more sense in this particular area.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Gorum is my top pick. If there's anybody who's going to pick a fight with something that one should not pick a fight with, it's going to be Gorum. All the other gods have more sense in this particular area.

And, assuming Urgathoa's prophecy can be trusted at all, we know that a god's destruction can lead to a wild increase of their domain rather than it being snuffed out. Gorum's death triggering war because there is a sudden, metaphysical abundance of war floating around makes sense from that perspective, and IIRC Gorum is also something of a title as well as an individual entity.


The Raven Black wrote:


Sarenrae : one third of the Prismatic Ray = unlikely

To be fair, I can imagine Sarenrae dying. Her death may actually bring about some change. Now, for example, the Padishah Empire is in a state of some prosperity and calm, which is why creating products based on it can be somewhat boring. Of course, it's always nice to live in an era of prosperity and peace. But, in my opinion, times of devastation and chaos are most suitable for adventure. And what better way to wreak havoc on an empire than the death of their main deity?


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Kavlor wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:


Sarenrae : one third of the Prismatic Ray = unlikely
To be fair, I can imagine Sarenrae dying. Her death may actually bring about some change. Now, for example, the Padishah Empire is in a state of some prosperity and calm, which is why creating products based on it can be somewhat boring. Of course, it's always nice to live in an era of prosperity and peace. But, in my opinion, times of devastation and chaos are most suitable for adventure. And what better way to wreak havoc on an empire than the death of their main deity?

It is a bit problematic, though, from a RL analogue issue.

Bear with me here.

For years during PF1, Sarenrae was posited as 'the' deity of the Padishah Empire.

Characters was written sometimes with exceptionally problematic takes ((Cult of the Dawnflower, anyone?)) along with a bit of a regional stereotype that got carried over by RL players.

So eliminating a deity from that area could be viewed from a deeper perspective of "Folks from 'that region' shouldn't get nice things" which can almost immediately lead to an incredible level of toxicity.

That Sarenrae is ALSO a member of a poly crew doesn't help, because doing anything there will immediately raise the hackles of an entire community.

From a purely 'meta' perspective, Paizo has been trying to learn lessons from products they release.

((Agents of Edgewatch had HORRIFIC timing with concerns about the conduct of law enforcement, and then some of the tropes the AP covered did not make it any better for most folks as one example.))

So it's not a rough ocean that is trying to be charted, it's a figurative minefield with some hidden devices that won't go off UNLESS someone blunders onto one.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Respectfully, I disagree that having Sarenrae die would be disrespectful to real life cultures or suggest that her death would be trashing on her followers.

The problem with equivalence between religion in the real world and religion in a fantasy RPG is that the will of fantasy gods is testible and knowable in immediate terms. It is why the cult of the dawn flower was so problematic: Saranrae would not give divine power to people violating her core tenets.

Thus you can’t have a continent spanning empire in Golarion break up over differences in religious interpretation, because religious interpretation is testable. So either a massive part of Golarion remains a place with universal healthcare and an impossible legal system where only true, capital E-Evil gets struck down and everyone else is shown mercy (Sarenrae has no edits or anathema related to fairness or justice, only striking down objective evil (an impossible real world standard) and showing mercy)— in other words a completely impossible empire to actually depict at all in real world scenarios—or else something very fundamental to that empire’s guiding faith needs to change. I think you risk much greater alienation of real world comparisons of the Kelish empire to the Ottoman Empire by having the people’s faith in their god be impure or diluted, than by having Sarenrae die doing something worthy of her mantle, and having the people have to try to go on without her.

It would be much easier to depict a flawed empire under the guidance of a god like Aroden than you ever can touch an empire that is being guided by Sarenrae. I fear that leaving Sarenrae in place will pretty much leave Much of the Gold Road as forever off limits to actually tell stories about without risking cult of the dawnflower level problematic representations.

Honestly, just an anathema to fail to strike down evil, in a game that no longer has alignment is probably about to get really messy and convoluted, especially in connection with an edict to show mercy.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Meanwhile, I'm just like...

"Okay, once we figure who we lose of the Core 20, when do we start sweating bullets for favored non-Core deities?"

'Cause I've got a few of them I'd miss far more than anyone who's left...


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Cole Deschain wrote:

Meanwhile, I'm just like...

"Okay, once we figure who we lose of the Core 20, when do we start sweating bullets for favored non-Core deities?"

'Cause I've got a few of them I'd miss far more than anyone who's left...

I cannot help but notice the sudden explosion of non-Core 20 gods showing up in the last two prophecies...


Mudfoot wrote:

Which is basically why I don't see how it can be Torag. It's just too inconsequential. If even the dwarves aren't that bothered, who else is going to care? Blacksmiths and engineers (who aren't a major constituency) can go to Brigh, for example.

I'll pick Gorum or Gozreh.

I return to the example of Franz Ferdinand.

Although that doesn't DIRECTLY correspond, since it's more like "minor crisis that ballooned catastrophically", instead of... whatever's going to happen with whoever dies here. But the point stands, an someone's death can have more meaning (to people outside their immediate circle) than who they were in life.
Or, look at pretty much every murder victim who hadn't been a public figure, especially if it sparked outcry. If you didn't know them in person, you likely wouldn't have cared if they died of natural causes, or got hit by a car; but the circumstances of their death make them (or not "them" really, but the end of their life) "interesting".

I'd also disagree with your statement that they wouldn't be BOTHERED. Just because it wouldn't throw their system into chaos, doesn't mean it wouldn't cause damage or change, or that they wouldn't grieve.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Y'all posted in the survey yet?


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

From a purely 'meta' perspective, Paizo has been trying to learn lessons from products they release.

((Agents of Edgewatch had HORRIFIC timing with concerns about the conduct of law enforcement, and then some of the tropes the AP covered did not make it any better for most folks as one example.))

Agents of Edgewatch had an horrible and unfortunate timing for its release, the tone-deafness wasn't at the time of its conception.


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Souls At War wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

From a purely 'meta' perspective, Paizo has been trying to learn lessons from products they release.

((Agents of Edgewatch had HORRIFIC timing with concerns about the conduct of law enforcement, and then some of the tropes the AP covered did not make it any better for most folks as one example.))

Agents of Edgewatch had an horrible and unfortunate timing for its release, the tone-deafness wasn't at the time of its conception.

I think the bit where the Good-aligned police are paid under the table to brutalize protesting workers and deliver one of them to the gallows would've been tone deaf no matter when it released... but there's no need to pick at old scabs.

Shadow Lodge

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keftiu wrote:
I think the bit where the Good-aligned police are paid under the table to brutalize protesting workers and deliver one of them to the gallows would've been tone deaf no matter when it released... but there's no need to pick at old scabs.

Heh, nice.

But having PCs brutalize striking workers, deputized to the state in one way or another, is time-honored Paizo tradition that plays well with its customer base. It comes up at least in Edge of Anarchy (where it was retained in the Anniversary Edition) and Racing to Ruin; and is at least an option in Breaking the Bones of Hell.

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