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Any advice on how to do this? People say "wait for Tian Xia" but there's been no news on classes like Ninja or Samurai being in the book?
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Classes don't come in Lost Omens books, only the Rulebook line.
My gut instinct is that, rather than making new Classes tied to a single Earth nation, they'll continue the current model of Classes with much broader concepts. Your Samurai will be perfectly happy as a Fighter, or a Champion of Shizuru or General Susumu; take the Cavalier or Marshal Archetype for bonus flavor. Likewise, a Ninja is pretty well accounted for by the Monk and Rogue - or even the Thaumaturge, who can also work well as an onmyoji.
Just as Asia is much, much bigger than Japan, there's a whole lot more to Tian Xia than just Minkai - and so cramming a bunch of non-Japanese cultures into getting less mechanical spotlight doesn't make a lot of sense.
If you want my guess for a Class they'll pair with the Tian Xia releases, it'll be a Shaman, who can represent animist traditions from across the continent. You might see Archetypes for something like a ninja or samurai, though!
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It makes sense if people aren't as interested in that and samurai is more than just a fighter its a social class for one thing, just like a ninja isn't really a rogue. And who says just because Ninja and Samurai are made classes or even a archtype that it means other cultures will be excluded? It doesn't. Paizo is not WOTC that way. Ninja and Samurai aren't entirely "tied to one earth nation" either if that's just the name but they fill a sort of role or abilities, ext. Monks aren't always asian style martial arts for example.
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These should just be Archetypes.
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This is a homebrew thread, no?
You aren’t going to get help designing a class for homebrew in the general discussion, especially if you frame the conversation as a failing of Paizo to provide you what you wanted in the first place. You will just get people trying to explain why certain choices were made
I would also like to see those classes
but I also think that they should be perfectly fine as archetypes
Samurai Archetype would probably go well with fighter, swashbuckler, Ranger, Champion and possibly barbarian
Ninja Archetype would go well with Rogue, Monk, Investigator, Inventor (Ninjutsu includes tools after all) and possibly Thaumaturgist
I think you need to research more into what a Ninja/Samurai is if you think you cannot build a Ninja with the Rogue class and the Samurai with the Fighter class.
Or at least describe YOUR concept of what a Ninja/Samurai is.
I can assure you, whatever you think they are is not what they really were, or at least, not your pop culture idea of it.
Who are you even talking to? I said a ninja is not a rogue. I also asked how to recreate the class from 1E. That is what I want. So if responders aren't familiar with that class they won't really be able to help.
Basically asking for a "build" to recreate that class, including multiclass or feats, ext. I remember they could turn invisible, something the monk cannot do at all? I think there was also things like mirror image, bombs, seeing invisible foes and other abilities?
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Basically asking for a "build" to recreate that class, including multiclass or feats, ext. I remember they could turn invisible, something the monk cannot do at all? I think there was also things like mirror image, bombs, seeing invisible foes and other abilities?
It feels like you're asking for one specific build to encompass every possible build a class had in PF1, which doesn't really track. But from the stuff you named, just build a laughing shadow magus with the alchemist multiclass for bombs. Will work better with free archetype, as most diverse builds do.
Gets you mobility enhancement (including a teleport behind them and strike spell), bonus damage against flatfooted foes, and can use spells to emulate most of the rest.
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For a historically accurate ninja, ...
This is like saying "for a historically accurate unicorn...".
Just had to be that person. ;-)
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The 1e Ninja was basically just a Rogue with a few Monk features; in 2e, a Rogue with a Monk Multiclass Archetype will be the closest thing by far.
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For a historically accurate ninja, ...
This is like saying "for a historically accurate unicorn...".
Just had to be that person. ;-)
Not really. Ninja, or something like that existed. What they were is up for debate usually.
The 1e Ninja was basically just a Rogue with a few Monk features; in 2e, a Rogue with a Monk Multiclass Archetype will be the closest thing by far.
Not quite. The ninja could do quite a few things a monk couldn't do and do some of them sooner. Someone said Rogues could turn invisible, yeah at lvl 20, far too late imo. Would I get more traction in the homebrew forum?
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These should just be Archetypes.
I mean, good enough for Cavalier and Vigilante, good enough for Samurai and Ninja. Samurai always was just a reskinned Cavalier after all. Ninja was basically a Rogue with some specialty Ki powers.
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It does not feel like you have a clear image of the build you're trying to emulate.
I think your initial post wasn't very clear you want a build using existing material.
So, for emulating PF1 ninja, mostly you just need some illusion spells. I'd go with occult, via Unbound Step psychic multiclass. That will give you limited short-range teleportation eventually, and bonus movement early on. Pick up Invisibility and/or Mirror Image, as well as the new wood reaction spell to substitute a log in for yourself. Grab a magic item to make fog, and use that for smoke bombs. I think there's a new pipe that does it without being noisy.
The 1e Ninja was basically just a Rogue with a few Monk features; in 2e, a Rogue with a Monk Multiclass Archetype will be the closest thing by far.Not quite. The ninja could do quite a few things a monk couldn't do and do some of them sooner. Someone said Rogues could turn invisible, yeah at lvl 20, far too late imo. Would I get more traction in the homebrew forum?I do think you would get more folks who want to homebrew and come up with new things in the Homebrew section of the forum. In the General Discussion, most readers will likely point at how to do it within the current published rules.
I've also found the homebrew forum to be more responsive if you present a draft and ask for feedback, rather than ask for others to come up with the idea whole cloth for you.
Good luck with the conversion
I AM asking how to do it with the current published rules though. I'm asking how to re-create the class from 1st ED using 2ED rules, feats, classes, ext?
Dual Class Monk/Rogue
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I AM asking how to do it with the current published rules though. I'm asking how to re-create the class from 1st ED using 2ED rules, feats, classes, ext?The 1e Ninja was basically just a Rogue with a few Monk features; in 2e, a Rogue with a Monk Multiclass Archetype will be the closest thing by far.Not quite. The ninja could do quite a few things a monk couldn't do and do some of them sooner. Someone said Rogues could turn invisible, yeah at lvl 20, far too late imo. Would I get more traction in the homebrew forum?I do think you would get more folks who want to homebrew and come up with new things in the Homebrew section of the forum. In the General Discussion, most readers will likely point at how to do it within the current published rules.
I've also found the homebrew forum to be more responsive if you present a draft and ask for feedback, rather than ask for others to come up with the idea whole cloth for you.
Good luck with the conversion
If you keep ignoring requests to clarify, then you've already been given several answers that are about as specific as you could expect.
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I AM asking how to do it with the current published rules though. I'm asking how to re-create the class from 1st ED using 2ED rules, feats, classes, ext?The 1e Ninja was basically just a Rogue with a few Monk features; in 2e, a Rogue with a Monk Multiclass Archetype will be the closest thing by far.Not quite. The ninja could do quite a few things a monk couldn't do and do some of them sooner. Someone said Rogues could turn invisible, yeah at lvl 20, far too late imo. Would I get more traction in the homebrew forum?I do think you would get more folks who want to homebrew and come up with new things in the Homebrew section of the forum. In the General Discussion, most readers will likely point at how to do it within the current published rules.
I've also found the homebrew forum to be more responsive if you present a draft and ask for feedback, rather than ask for others to come up with the idea whole cloth for you.
Good luck with the conversion
I think the reason you're getting some push back here is that re-create an entire class isn't really something that is done, even for classes that have been converted over entirely. If you want to re-create a specific build/character, that's pretty straightforward - if you're wanting invisibility as a core part of your character, there are ways to include that. Take a multiclass dedication to pick up spellcasting and learn the spell, or take a cleric/champion dedication and pick up something lile Sudden Shift to get a similar effect a little earlier. There are a lot of options in PF2 now, and I'm confident you can get a similar feeling to a character you made in PF1, though you'll never get the exact same abilities to the dot. However, there is no straightforward 1:1 conversion of the ninja class - if you were a ninja who focused on a lot of the ki powers, maybe monk multiclassed into a caster is a better fit. If you were a ninja who only used the ki powers minorly, maybe rogue multiclassed monk is better for you. It all depends on the character you're trying to convert! :)
I can't convert because I never got to play my ninja character for long at all before that game fell apart, didn't even get to lvl 2. lol. Guess I'd have to look at the class in 1E, build a character with it, then see how that would work in 2E with advice/help. Though I think Drongo gave a good build in homebew.
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What. Do you want. Your ninja. To do.
Just that. What do you want them to do?
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That tracks.
I AM asking how to do it with the current published rules though. I'm asking how to re-create the class from 1st ED using 2ED rules, feats, classes, ext?The 1e Ninja was basically just a Rogue with a few Monk features; in 2e, a Rogue with a Monk Multiclass Archetype will be the closest thing by far.Not quite. The ninja could do quite a few things a monk couldn't do and do some of them sooner. Someone said Rogues could turn invisible, yeah at lvl 20, far too late imo. Would I get more traction in the homebrew forum?I do think you would get more folks who want to homebrew and come up with new things in the Homebrew section of the forum. In the General Discussion, most readers will likely point at how to do it within the current published rules.
I've also found the homebrew forum to be more responsive if you present a draft and ask for feedback, rather than ask for others to come up with the idea whole cloth for you.
Good luck with the conversion
I am sorry, I had misunderstood your request. It is not homebrew, it is advice where people usually ask questions about character building suggestions using existing rules. It isn’t that you did something wrong posting it in general discussion, the moderators can still move it, it is just that people responding in the general discussion will be looking to talk more broadly about class design than specifically help you come up with a build.
Knowing your character was only first level, your question is probably more related to eventual things you wanted the character to do rather than what they could already do. Is there one or 2 specific things you can think of you really want to be your character’s defining actions/abilities?
About do a Ninja archetype.
The main problem of a Ninja archetype is that pop culture ninja are widely versatile mixing characteristics of rogue like martial proficiency (due their usage of agile/finesse weapons) with high precision damage + high perception and stealth abilities + spellcasting (hand-seals that do magical things) + some innate abilities + martial arts + toxicologist/alchemist.
The point is there isn't enough space in a archetype to put all this. IMO this requires a dedicated class (but many people here don't like the idea of have a regionalized class).
Anyway instead of create a new homebrew archetype my suggestion to do a reskined Eldritch Trickster Rogue + Shadowcaster/Shadowdancer archetypes in a Free Archetype game.
The point is there isn't enough space in a archetype to put all this. IMO this requires a dedicated class (but many people here don't like the idea of have a regionalized class).
This I have to disagree with as archetypes, by their very nature, have a massive amount of room. They don't need to be narrow bands of abilities and often even grant access to feats from other classes. Creating an archetype that allows for a few toxicologist feats and ki abilities already goes pretty far towards what you're talking about.
A class, I feel, would need to present a new way of approaching encounter or exploration mode on some level. If a "ninja" is definied by attacking from steatlh, we have rogues. If they are definied by ki abilities, we have monks. Even poison could be an interesting mechanic to hang a class on, but would that be a "ninja" or would it be something altogether different?
And I mean, I can see why people would oppose regional classes, because it does get a bit silly. I mean, is an impi warrior distinct enough from a fighter to need a new class? Do hussars do something not covered in the rules already? Or ninja and samurai are just an idea that has sort of entered the pop culture subconscious and taken on a life of its own that takes a real world culture and sort of "others" it?
This same argument you can use for Swashbuckler, Inventor, Oracles and even Witches. They could be just archetypes of rogue, sorcerer and wizard but the designer decided that they need to be classes.
About archetype space, you have 10 feats to put all ninja like abilities in an 2-pages archetype. Maybe you can add more pages with more option but you wont have enough space in 10 feat slots to do a "rogue" that do all what ninjas do in same character without the assistance of class features.
Samurais in pop culture also have a grate sense of honor and a spiritual link with their weapons and even ki strikes.
IMO samurais in pop culture is more like armed and armored monks with a strong moral sense than a versatile fighter. It's like a mix of champions but more offensive, fighters but more single weapon (usually swords) dedicated, monks but more focused in ki part and metal stability.
This same argument you can use for Swashbuckler, Inventor, Oracles and even Witches. They could be just archetypes of rogue, sorcerer and wizard but the designer decided that they need to be classes.
About archetype space, you have 10 feats to put all ninja like abilities in an 2-pages archetype. Maybe you can add more pages with more option but you wont have enough space in 10 feat slots to do a "rogue" that do all what ninjas do in same character without the assistance of class features.
I think the difference is there was a clear cut idea for what most of those classes offered, and brought something new to the game both thematically and mechanically. (I think the witch has the weakest case there, but they are trying to give it more of an identity in the remaster.)
Whenever these threads pop up, there is no clear limitation on what people want from the class. The thread creator here is one example of this, but your own list has some of that too. If a class needs to be get most of the key features of the rogue in terms of stealth, precision damage, and perception, but still needs more spells, "innate abilities," poisons, and "martial arts,"* than you can fit in a rogue... What exactly does the ninja give up from the basic rogue package? Bonus skill increases?
I just don't know if Pathfinder classes can achieve an acceptable level of taken across so many many fields.
I can't convert because I never got to play my ninja character for long at all before that game fell apart, didn't even get to lvl 2. lol. Guess I'd have to look at the class in 1E, build a character with it, then see how that would work in 2E with advice/help. Though I think Drongo gave a good build in homebew.
Well, what was your pf1e ninja build going to be? What was the abilities it was going to have at 1,5,and 10?
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Basically asking for a "build" to recreate that class, including multiclass or feats, ext. I remember they could turn invisible, something the monk cannot do at all? I think there was also things like mirror image, bombs, seeing invisible foes and other abilities?
This seems to sum up what most interested the OP in the PF1 class.
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This same argument you can use for Swashbuckler, Inventor, Oracles and even Witches. They could be just archetypes of rogue, sorcerer and wizard but the designer decided that they need to be classes.
To circle back on this, this isn't so much as a "designer decided" so much as mechanics were made that made them stand apart from other classes and play differently. Swashbucklers are quite the departure from their 1e incarnation, which really was just the fighter/gunslinger mash-up. 2e changed them to hinge more on their panache (while the 2e gunslinger removed their grit mechanic, but that's another story). Inventor is new and plays very differently from other classes. Oracles are obviously in a different design space. As Captain Morgan said, witch is the only one here that folks may question the need for - and there's plenty of debate out there surrounding the witch.
So as a ninja or a samurai, how would they need to play differently to justify a full class? It isn't "one could make a ton of feats that fit the flavor" and then build a class around it. It would need to do interact with the game in a new way in order to be a new class - something that could be difficult given the number of different answers given for "what a ninja is/does" already.
About archetype space, you have 10 feats to put all ninja like abilities in an 2-pages archetype. Maybe you can add more pages with more option but you wont have enough space in 10 feat slots to do a "rogue" that do all what ninjas do in same character without the assistance of class features.
While I am always very mindful of page count when designing, what I mean is that many "ninja-like" abilities exist in other classes already. These feats could very easily be included as "Additional Feats" that many archetypes have - like the Martial Artist, which take up significantly less page space while helping to define the archetype more clearly. A "ninja" archetype could simply give Sneak Attacker (for non-rogues going into the archetype), Ki Strike, Poison Weapon, and a smattering of innate spells for ninja that want that invisibility. Then, if you're looking to go further, a few "ninja-themed" feats for flavor: a skill feat that lets you treat walls as flat surfaces for the purposes of Striding (but fall if you end your turn on a wall), a one-action invisibility that lasts until the end of your turn, or something along those lines.
Now, it's becoming clear that the OP didn't want to make a homebrew class or archetype, but rather wants to make a character who plays like a ninja did in 1e. That's much easier to do, but the thread would need information to build one because - as we all know - no two characters ever quite played the same. So I pose to the OP again, what do you want your ninja character to do? Saying, just make a 1e ninja doesn't give us enough to work with. It's akin to going into a 1e forum and asking people to make you a 1e ninja - they're still going to wnat to know what sort of ninja you want to play. If you don't care about the mechanics and only the theme, don't worry about "build," just make a rogue and play normally.