Thaumaturge Esoteric Lore


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


Can somebody explain to me why the Thaumaturge makes a recall knowledge check with “charisma”.
I just don’t get it.


I guess I answered the question myself in the discord channel :D

Dark Archive

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The mechanical answer is "because that's what the rules say to do".

If you want a more lore-based approach, its because its not based on studied wisdom and research, its based on collections of folk tales, stories, peoples experiences and the like.

Its rumours and folk wisdom.

Which is why the class has Dubious Knowledge built into it.


I think that's the best explanation available Old_ManBot


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I think it has something to do with using one's essence/presence to poke into the universe/cosmos and get direct knowledge of the target much in the way that True Names operate. Not intellectual or wise, kinda channeled in an occult way (albeit without the tag so not).

Liberty's Edge

I think it represents both the trading of tales/ getting prople to spill the beans AND the ability to force your target to acknowledge the weakness you strike at.


I think it represents poetic knowledge, like what a bard uses to create stories.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I like to think of it as luck or educated guesses or maybe even confidence in "shooting from the hip".


Because it is actually just a highly technical deception check. It is just that the thaumaturge may or may not be subject to the same deception.


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To truly know the esoteric and uncanny, you have to put your very identity on the line. A thaumaturges knowledge is oftentimes completely useless to anyone but them. Their willpower makes it useful. They simply "know" harder.


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You could think of it as the Thaumaturge convincing the universe that this particular enemy does in fact have a weakness to daffodils and you just happen to have some handy that you've infused into your weapon.

Dark Archive

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I think some people in this thread are conflating Esoteric Lore and Exploit Vulnerability.

While the two are linked through Exploit Vulnerability, Esoteric Lore is a much smaller scale, and discrete, ability.

Esoteric Lore wrote:

Your experience with the unknown, as well as the tales you've exchanged with other thaumaturges, has taught you about strange phenomena of every kind. You become trained in Esoteric Lore, a special lore skill that can be used to Recall Knowledge regarding haunts, curses, and creatures of any type, but that can't be used to Recall Knowledge of other topics. Unlike a normal Lore skill, you use Charisma as your modifier on Esoteric Lore checks. You also gain the Dubious Knowledge skill feat.

At 3rd level, you become an expert in Esoteric Lore; at 7th level, you become a master in Esoteric Lore; and at 15th level, you become legendary in Esoteric Lore.

The bolded portion is the only flavour text the ability really provides, and is relatively mundane in nature. You've seen some things and heard other stories of the same type.

There is a lot of ways to flavour EV and there are some really cool ways to do it. I just feel that Esoteric Lore is just a rather simple, folk knowledge effect.

Liberty's Edge

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

I think some people in this thread are conflating Esoteric Lore and Exploit Vulnerability.

While the two are linked through Exploit Vulnerability, Esoteric Lore is a much smaller scale, and discrete, ability.

Esoteric Lore wrote:

Your experience with the unknown, as well as the tales you've exchanged with other thaumaturges, has taught you about strange phenomena of every kind. You become trained in Esoteric Lore, a special lore skill that can be used to Recall Knowledge regarding haunts, curses, and creatures of any type, but that can't be used to Recall Knowledge of other topics. Unlike a normal Lore skill, you use Charisma as your modifier on Esoteric Lore checks. You also gain the Dubious Knowledge skill feat.

At 3rd level, you become an expert in Esoteric Lore; at 7th level, you become a master in Esoteric Lore; and at 15th level, you become legendary in Esoteric Lore.

The bolded portion is the only flavour text the ability really provides, and is relatively mundane in nature. You've seen some things and heard other stories of the same type.

There is a lot of ways to flavour EV and there are some really cool ways to do it. I just feel that Esoteric Lore is just a rather simple, folk knowledge effect.

Exploit vulnerability's result depends on your Esoteric Lore check, and thus your CHA.

Dark Archive

Well, yeah, I mentioned that. It doesn't impact what I was saying though.

Trying to meld the mechanical expression of Charisma through the flavour Exploit Vulnerability doesn't need to happen. The Esoteric Lore portion is all the rumours and stories stuff, if you need to wed mechanic and flavour through an expression of an ability score, it happens at the Esoteric Lore level.

Your flavour expression of Exploit vulnerability need not be so bound.


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Really, the reason Esoteric Lore uses CHA is because that's how Exploit Vulnerability works, more than anything about the lore itself. At least that's my take.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
lemeres wrote:
Because it is actually just a highly technical deception check. It is just that the thaumaturge may or may not be subject to the same deception.
aobst128 wrote:
To truly know the esoteric and uncanny, you have to put your very identity on the line. A thaumaturges knowledge is oftentimes completely useless to anyone but them. Their willpower makes it useful. They simply "know" harder.
Claxon wrote:
You could think of it as the Thaumaturge convincing the universe that this particular enemy does in fact have a weakness to daffodils and you just happen to have some handy that you've infused into your weapon.

OP's asking about esoteric lore, not exploit vulnerability. Esoteric Lore is a Lore skill that functions like any other lore skill and therefore gives you real knowledge when you successful use it, because you're Recalling Knowledge with it. So none of these answers really apply.


Squiggit wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Because it is actually just a highly technical deception check. It is just that the thaumaturge may or may not be subject to the same deception.
aobst128 wrote:
To truly know the esoteric and uncanny, you have to put your very identity on the line. A thaumaturges knowledge is oftentimes completely useless to anyone but them. Their willpower makes it useful. They simply "know" harder.
Claxon wrote:
You could think of it as the Thaumaturge convincing the universe that this particular enemy does in fact have a weakness to daffodils and you just happen to have some handy that you've infused into your weapon.
OP's asking about esoteric lore, not exploit vulnerability. Esoteric Lore is a Lore skill that functions like any other lore skill and therefore gives you real knowledge when you successful use it, because you're Recalling Knowledge with it. So none of these answers really apply.

I will contest this about my post. I believe the thaumaturges strangeness is intrinsic to their knowledge for either EV or standard RK checks. Charisma represents willpower and force of personality much more than knowing folktales. Their knowledge is built different.

Verdant Wheel

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It's like.

You just remember things with your sexy!


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rainzax wrote:

It's like.

You just remember things with your sexy!

Lore is stored in the balls.

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