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Hmmm... let me note one more thing I'm worried about. I feel they SHOULD called this PF2.5E . Now that we see these changes, I feel it's folly to NOT call it a partial edition change.
I kinda agree, actually, simply for clarity's sake. As I said up thread, I think the reason for the change is entirely valid (not to mention clear), but the current course of action seems like it may get needlessly murky, especially for new folks. I'd rather Paizo trust us enough to call a spade a spade.
But beware: posts expressing this view seem to have recently developed a nasty habit of disappearing without a trace. :-/
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Hmmm... let me note one more thing I'm worried about. I feel they SHOULD called this PF2.5E . Now that we see these changes, I feel it's folly to NOT call it a partial edition change.I kinda agree, actually, simply for clarity's sake. As I said up thread, I think the reason for the change is entirely valid (not to mention clear), but the current course of action seems like it may get needlessly murky, especially for new folks. I'd rather Paizo trust us enough to call a spade a spade.
But beware: posts expressing this view seem to have recently developed a nasty habit of disappearing without a trace. :-/
I wouldn't ask Paizo for us to reinforce something that was turned into a slur.
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I wouldn't ask Paizo for us to reinforce something that was turned into a slur.
That seemed...oddly snarky, but I do appreciate the heads up about the saying, as I had no idea.
I'll do my best to avoid using it in the future.
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The changes announced so far hit the right notes for me personally. Good riddance to ability scores, two-dimensional alignment, and the eight spell schools. So far the only thing leaving me uneasy is how much of the 2nd-edition corpus is going to be fractured. There's going to be scattered content everyone, including PC options, getting left in a perpetual state of usability limbo, with the rules on which they depended having been replaced.
So far most of it seems good to very good. I admit my position is also based on the fact that on the monster and ancestry side the new Golarion is closer to my own setting - so it makes my life easier.
I am a bit on the fence on the wizard changes - I think the school changes make sense - but am worried they may end up nerfing wizards more (even though they are somewhat weak already…..) - but that might just be pessimism.
But I think PF2.5 (considering we are at 2.1 or 2.2 already) will be an improvement.
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Seems like the refocus changes are eating a portion of the psychics deal......and theyre one of my favorite new classes. Ten minutes refocuses instead of 20 minute refocuses for 2 points doesn't seem like much of anything to me. Oh well the change is a net positive to the system tho. I'm also miffed schools are being removed if only bc now that entire section of secrets of magic is just kinda defunct.....which gets me to my main point: this was a necessary reaction on paizo's part, but creates a lot of headaches along the way. I want one string of books, not a new core of books followed by a couple ancillary books that "mostly work". I really really hope there's going to be a player core 3 eventually just to give the errata/reprint pass to all the other class books that were affected by this. Not the end of the world, just the broader implications of everything while looking at my shelf of P2e books has had me losing steam from my enthusiast engine.
P.S. mechanically, the changes I've seen all seems GOOD so kudos and thank you to the designers!
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Seems like the refocus changes are eating a portion of the psychics deal......and theyre on of my favorite new classes. Ten minutes refocuses instead of 20 minute refocuses for 2 points doesn't seem like much of anything to me. Oh well the change is a net positive to the system tho.
On the positive side, we can be pretty sure that there will be Psychic buffs in the future ^^. After all, they're paying part of their class budget for it.
I'm also miffed schools are being removed if only bc now that entire section of secrets of magic is just kinda defunct.....which gets me to my main point: this was a necessary reaction on paizo's part, but creates a lot of headaches along the way. I want one string of books, not a new core of books followed by a couple ancillary books that "mostly work". I really really hope there's going to be a player core 3 eventually just to give the errata/reprint pass to all they other class books that were affected by this. Not the end of the world, just the broader implications of everything while looking at my shelf of P2e books has had me losing steam from my enthusiast engine.
I mean, it's really only SOM that is substantially affected by this. The changes to G&G would be incredibly minor. Apparently only a handful of words, which is easy to believe. DA would be a little more due to the psychic, but nothing beyond regular errata.
But yeah, it isn't an ideal scenario, even with the promised transition document. However, I'm personally more inclined to take a moderate period of things being kinda klunky when I expect the final result to be better what came before. Let's wait and see, I guess ^^
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Seems like the refocus changes are eating a portion of the psychics deal......and theyre one of my favorite new classes. Ten minutes refocuses instead of 20 minute refocuses for 2 points doesn't seem like much of anything to me. Oh well the change is a net positive to the system tho. I'm also miffed schools are being removed if only bc now that entire section of secrets of magic is just kinda defunct.....which gets me to my main point: this was a necessary reaction on paizo's part, but creates a lot of headaches along the way. I want one string of books, not a new core of books followed by a couple ancillary books that "mostly work". I really really hope there's going to be a player core 3 eventually just to give the errata/reprint pass to all the other class books that were affected by this. Not the end of the world, just the broader implications of everything while looking at my shelf of P2e books has had me losing steam from my enthusiast engine.
P.S. mechanically, the changes I've seen all seems GOOD so kudos and thank you to the designers!
I would consider that they have made some non-trivial tweaks to Alchemist through regular errata before all this. Right now, they've said they're focusing on the remastered books. If I had to guess, though, once the books are out, Psychic will get an errata to improve their refocusing a little more, rather than making people wait for another big reprint.
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Personally I'm a little worried that the focus point changes might push the game towards greater polarization of power between builds. It is a (probably deserved) early-game boost to casters, but you only get that boost if you pick up the feats that grant additional focus points and focus spells. Furthermore, this will widen the gap between classes that get premium early focus spells and those that don't (or alternatively reduce build diversity for those classes if there are universally good options for archetypes to snag a good focus spell). 2E is generally pretty good about having builds of various levels of optimization be close to one another and I see this as a potential step away from that.
With that said though, making focus pool and point recovery linked is a big win in my eyes. It used to work in a way that was pretty unsatisfying and unintuitive for a lot of new players so I'm happy it changed, it's just that the specific nature of the change has some worrying implications IMO.
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If the change were just dropped in as is I'd mostly agree with you, but I feel like this + the general tone of remaster also gives Paizo a strong incentive to re-examine some of their focus spell balance choices (which in some cases is problematic to begin with, so it's not like we're upsetting a perfectly balanced status quo).
If the change were just dropped in as is I'd mostly agree with you, but I feel like this + the general tone of remaster also gives Paizo a strong incentive to re-examine some of their focus spell balance choices (which in some cases is problematic to begin with, so it's not like we're upsetting a perfectly balanced status quo).
I could see something like this happening, though AFAIK we have not heard about anything like this yet. I would personally be in favor of removing focus pool increase from feats that grant focus spells (it was always kind of weird you got to double dip that way, especially now that a focus pool increase represents such an increase in power compared to before), and making focus pool progression something that comes built into the baseline, with classes like Oracle and Psychic starting out with a bigger pool (and possibly maxing out at 4 points instead, I think that would be neat). There are other ways things could be adjusted as well, of course.
My main concern here is that these changes would be things that heavily affect classes printed in books outside of the ones covered by the remaster, so making the neccesary changes might be hampered by that fact.
The biggest changes to classes are going to the wizard and witch, followed likely by the champion.
As a big Sorcerer fan from 1E, I'm actually quite interested if the class is getting a bigger rework since it's in Player Core 2 or if that's just the luck of the draw, since they wanted to get changes to the Witch out faster than next year.
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The biggest changes to classes are going to the wizard and witch, followed likely by the champion.As a big Sorcerer fan from 1E, I'm actually quite interested if the class is getting a bigger rework since it's in Player Core 2 or if that's just the luck of the draw, since they wanted to get changes to the Witch out faster than next year.
The reason for the delay is the adaptation to the new ORC dragons. Same as the Barbarian and the Kobolds.
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to me, remaster sounds like required purchase
im ok with that because my books are all behind the times with erratas as it is. but i probalby wont repurchase my books again after the remaster. so i hope its good.
It's just a question as to whether "how the Remastered Witch is different from the current one" is something you can just refer to AoN to see what the differences are.
Like if most of the feats are the same, I can just keep in mind stuff like "Hair and Nails are a single feat" or "there's one refocus feat at [whatever] level instead of 2 at 12 and 18" or "Cackle is a class feature" or whatever.
All the Remastered rules will be on AoN. As usual.to me, remaster sounds like required purchase
im ok with that because my books are all behind the times with erratas as it is. but i probalby wont repurchase my books again after the remaster. so i hope its good.
i play in person
we do not always have access to the internet
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All the Remastered rules will be on AoN. As usual.to me, remaster sounds like required purchase
im ok with that because my books are all behind the times with erratas as it is. but i probalby wont repurchase my books again after the remaster. so i hope its good.
i play in person
we do not always have access to the internet
Yes. If I were in your position, I would wait and buy the Remastered books. And play a mix and match until all the Remastered books are available. Or maybe wait for the last one (Player Core 2 IIRC) to buy all of them together in the most recent version.
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The biggest changes to classes are going to the wizard and witch, followed likely by the champion.As a big Sorcerer fan from 1E, I'm actually quite interested if the class is getting a bigger rework since it's in Player Core 2 or if that's just the luck of the draw, since they wanted to get changes to the Witch out faster than next year.
In one of the interview videos that I saw earlier in the month, one of the reasons given for Barbarian and Sorc to be in PC2 was so that dragons would be out before them since both classes have potential ties to dragons.
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I wouldn't expect heavy changes to the sorcerer as they are one of the most functional spell casting classes as is. But they will get stronger in the sense that all casters will with punched up spells and more focus points.
My very minor thing I hope gets looked at is the Deafness condition. It swings between quite useful and completely useless depending on whether it affects verbal spell components or not. It's also never been entirely clear if it does or not, a surface reading of the rules tells you it does, a deeper reading tells you it does not, and then with an even deeper reading you loop back to uncertainty.
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Pathfinder 2.5
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My very minor thing I hope gets looked at is the Deafness condition. It swings between quite useful and completely useless depending on whether it affects verbal spell components or not. It's also never been entirely clear if it does or not, a surface reading of the rules tells you it does, a deeper reading tells you it does not, and then with an even deeper reading you loop back to uncertainty.
It's a moot point in this case; verbal components are being replaced with the concentration trait.
My very minor thing I hope gets looked at is the Deafness condition. It swings between quite useful and completely useless depending on whether it affects verbal spell components or not. It's also never been entirely clear if it does or not, a surface reading of the rules tells you it does, a deeper reading tells you it does not, and then with an even deeper reading you loop back to uncertainty.It's a moot point in this case; verbal components are being replaced with the concentration trait.
It would still be nice for Deafness to get a second pass since it'd just end up as a bit of a nothing condition in that case.
Have we confirmed that a new Verbal trait isn't being added? Don't get me wrong, though, I love the idea of reducing the limits on spellcasting flavor.
Have we confirmed that a new Verbal trait isn't being added? Don't get me wrong, though, I love the idea of reducing the limits on spellcasting flavor.
As far as I understood it, all mechanical impact will stay the same, just in a different "format". This includes the verbal part.
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I didn't say it was flavor, I said it limits flavor. Many mechanics, good and bad, also have flavor implications. I definitely don't contest that the verbal trait is an important balance point for spells.
That being said, I'm not sure that completely disabling a PC caster underwater (or in a stealth situation, to a much lesser extent) has a great impact on player experience. If verbal components are an important part of the game's balance...maybe they shouldn't be. Maybe that was a bad idea.
Too late to change it this edition, but I think that giving the bulk of them just the concentrate and/or manipulate trait would probably be a good idea someday. The need to speak isn't nearly as important as the need to move freely in terms of balance, considering how relatively uncommon "muteness" attacks are, and you could still make it so that spells trigger attacks of opportunity and are hindered by being grappled.
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Have we confirmed that a new Verbal trait isn't being added? Don't get me wrong, though, I love the idea of reducing the limits on spellcasting flavor.As far as I understood it, all mechanical impact will stay the same, just in a different "format". This includes the verbal part.
I seem to have misunderstood what was said; my apologies. Looking at people's notes, they definitely don't line up with my interpretation, so I'm going to assume that I got mixed up about how the change would work. My bad!
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I didn't say it was flavor, I said it limits flavor. Many mechanics, good and bad, also have flavor implications. I definitely don't contest that the verbal trait is an important balance point for spells.
That being said, I'm not sure that completely disabling a PC caster underwater (or in a stealth situation, to a much lesser extent) has a great impact on player experience. If verbal components are an important part of the game's balance...maybe they shouldn't be. Maybe that was a bad idea.
Too late to change it this edition, but I think that giving the bulk of them just the concentrate and/or manipulate trait would probably be a good idea someday. The need to speak isn't nearly as important as the need to move freely in terms of balance, considering how relatively uncommon "muteness" attacks are, and you could still make it so that spells trigger attacks of opportunity and are hindered by being grappled.
Not sure it is too late to change this edition. Seems like a pretty perfect opportunity, honestly. A lot of spells don't especially work because of it, like the Message cantrip (It either needs to be cast discreetly for social situations or to break line of effect to use for reporting to each other) or the regular success result for Suggestion (The target is unaffected and thinks you were talking to them normally, not casting a spell on them.) I would not mind it if stealth casting were a lot easier than it currently is. It is one of those things that new players often want to do but need to be reminded they can't, and spells like Charm and Suggestion already carry risks from Critical Successes that can reign in abusing them.
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Verbal, somatic, and material as tag was just a way to imply certain traits and those traits are just going to be shown outright. It not a change in how things are presented not in how they spells work.
The biggest changes to classes are going to the wizard and witch, followed likely by the champion.As a big Sorcerer fan from 1E, I'm actually quite interested if the class is getting a bigger rework since it's in Player Core 2 or if that's just the luck of the draw, since they wanted to get changes to the Witch out faster than next year.
Don't expect too much as the sorcerer is considered a successful class. Which will likely see minor revisions to draconic bloodlines regarding the types of dragons the character can associate with.
The biggest change that the class should receive is indirect, which is precisely the new refocus rule. As the sorcerer has some of the best focus spells, he will indirectly benefit from this, becoming more efficient much sooner (today this efficiency gain only occurs from 12th level, with the change it drops to basically 6th level when if you can get Advanced Bloodline or even earlier if archetypes are used).
Do we know how the digital partners such as Herolab are going to implement these changes so they are compatible?
For example a character that has an archetype with an alignment requirement such as Undead Master which isn’t getting errated and the removal of alignment. Perhaps the alignment field will remain in order to meet the requirements or will they take it upon themselves to remove alignment from archetypes so they are now available as a choice?
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Verbal, somatic, and material as tag was just a way to imply certain traits and those traits are just going to be shown outright. It not a change in how things are presented not in how they spells work.
My only problem with verbal becoming concentration trait is about what happens to Silence spell and Deafened condition. But it's certain that they will do something about this.
Do we know how the digital partners such as Herolab are going to implement these changes so they are compatible?
For example a character that has an archetype with an alignment requirement such as Undead Master which isn’t getting errated and the removal of alignment. Perhaps the alignment field will remain in order to meet the requirements or will they take it upon themselves to remove alignment from archetypes so they are now available as a choice?
I saw somewhere (I don't remember where) that the Foundry module will have a legacy mode and a remaster, I don't know about herolab.
As for the other books. Most likely we will have multiple errata coming out over time addressing issues about things that have changed. As for things with alignment requirements, most likely most of them just miss that requirement only.
Anyway, the designers have already said that they are in the middle of the remastering process and will only see these other books after releasing the entire remaster. Before that it doesn't even make much sense.
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It's pretty minor, but the new names are a bit hit or miss for me. The new witch patrons for exemple seems great and evocative, but the new wizard schools feel just goofy for the most part.
Speaking of witch patrons, I understand not including the specific rare patrons in the core book, but I really hope they don't wait too much to publish the mosquito witch new familiar ability. Even outside of the mosquito witch herself (which is a pretty cool in universe cryptid, and fitting for a patron), it was the one patron that worked really well with an insect themed witch, and without it, there isn't any other fitting ones.
In a way, Baba Yaga can wait because the "silence in snow" can emulate her pretty aptly for the moment, but the mosquito witch is more important because she's the one that can emulate a wild array of different insect based patron.
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Removed some off topic posts.
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Overall I'm excited, the only thing I'm sad about is the loss of drow, but honestly I always preferred Forgotten Realms drow to Golarion drow anyways (I'm a bit of an Eilistraee fangirl).
Everything mechanics-wise that we've heard about seems like good changes, and ultimately if I don't like it we already have enough PF2 content to sustain any campaigns I'd run in the future.
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Some changes have me really excited while others have been extremely disappointing. Overall I'm feeling pretty meh about the whole thing. I'll wait until it's out to make up my mind.