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Maybe it's just me, but after playing a bit of the Magus and really looking into it and all it's options
- It is built strictly as a Dex-based Martial that has half-casting, to the point where the core mechanics of Spell Combat or Spellstrike don't work with 2-handed weapons without DM homebrew, forcing you to play a specific way with 1-handed light weapons. This seems like a massive oversight fundamentally that those who made this class couldn't see past the single vision they had of a stereotypical spellblade.
- Trying to do this without homebrew means taking the Arcane Marauder archetype, which allows you to Spellstrike with a 2-handed weapon. You also get medium armor prof at 1st level, Power Attack feat at 1st lvl, and if you use Power Attack w/ Spellstrike you get half the bonus damage of Power Attack added to your caster level in regards to overcoming enemy spell resistance. The tradeoff? You lose the class feature of Spell Combat ENTIRELY and cast one less spell of each level per day than a normal Magus...really doesn't seem worth it to me. There are other archetypes that let you try using ranged weapons, thrown weapons, and even working in a shield...but they often sacrifice too much of the core of the class to seem worth it, which means that they somehow STILL couldn't get past this very limited scope of the class.
- Despite being a casting class, the casting stat (Int) isn't as important to have super high as it is to have a high Dex as you can't get medium armor until 7th lvl and heavy until 13th and you will be on the front lines. I've heard you just aren't rewarded as much as other half-casters or full casters for having a high casting stat, which doesn't make sense as you should be equally rewarded.
- Without taking at least two feats or specific weapons, the Dex-based half-caster class can't use their Dex mod for their attacks or for damage, which requires you to either wait until later levels to get online or to also have a high Str Mod. Since every character should have a decent Con Mod and the Magus will eventually get hit by being on the front lines, this makes the Magus very MAD.
- Casting in melee threat range requires you to Cast Defensively or to risk an AoO and having to roll concentration anyway. Defensive Casting DC is 15 + Double Spell lvl, which means even just a normal 1st level spell needs you to beat a 17 DC. The math was done by someone else, and the odds of you beating that when you only add your caster level and Int mod to the roll are very low for the beginning levels...unless you grab Combat Casting as your 1st lvl feat, but the issue now is you have to waste a feat just to resolve an early game issue that doesn't exist later on in levels.
Additionally, if a Magus is using Spell Combat and Spellstrike frequently, this means having to roll a max of three times per round of combat (once for Concentration, and twice for attack rolls) which just increases the odds of failure at lower levels where the bonuses you have to each roll are too low to make enough of a difference.
- You get a default -2 to all attack rolls (spell or otherwise) made when using Spell Combat, which at early levels could easily cancel out your BAB when you have to split your stats in such a way, and this forces you to cast spells that give constant buffs to your attack rolls...but you also need to cast spells to help your AC...but then with so few spells to cast per day when are you supposed to use your offensive spells in general, let alone with Spellstrike that goes against a higher AC than normal while still taking negatives from Spell Combat. This means that you actually DO want a higher Int to have more spells per day than you usually get to make up for this.
Also, to try and mitigate the Concentration issue, Spell Combat allows you to take further negatives on your attack rolls (up to your Int mod) to increase your chances of successfully Casting Defensively...but that means you will likely miss your melee attacks, which defeats the purpose of Spellstrike and the class itself. Thus this is more proof that you need a high Int mod so as to not need to take more negatives to your melee roles in addition to having more Arcane Pool points and spell options...so the Magus really does want you to have at least a 16 in Str, Dex, and Int to function properly when not factoring in feats...which you shouldn't HAVE to grab certain feats just to make the class bearable to play.
- Arcane Pool at base feels mostly like a bandaid solution to the negatives you get from Spell Combat rather than making an actual solution, with the really good part of it not factoring in until 5th lvl, and even then you have to sacrifice portions of your enhancement bonus to get the extra properties...and we all know you should be grabbing Keen as often as possible anyway.
- All the other class features feel as though they are offering more options to make up for how much things suck for the class early on instead of the class already being strong and really making the class crazy cool. Magus Arcana have cool additional options, but so many of the choices are more bandaid fixes for the negatives the class has; All forms of Spell Recall, Knowledge Pool, and Greater Spell Access are there to semi-address how few spells you get a day and your very limited spell list; the upgrades to Spell Combat simply address the negatives the class got early on while trying to keep up with the fact that a 6th lvl spell has a Defensive Cast DC of 27; The Capstone gives the option of finally removing the need for Concentration checks when Casting Defensively and getting a mere +2 to spell DC to resist effects, a +2 to overcome spell resistance, OR a +2 to all attack rolls made to the same target in that round...but ONLY if your spells actually targets the same creature you are melee attacking...or you just get a flat +2 for a max of +7 when you pop an Arcane Pool.
So you have to struggle with these stupid checks until literally max level (when most campaigns don't go this far), and the most unique class features not tied to fixing the mistakes of the class are bonus feats, half your level being considered as a Fighter for feats, and getting AoO on casters who Cast Defensively within your threat range...and the latter two don't come into play until 10th lvl and 16th lvl respectively. Not gonna lie, kind of a letdown.
- Because of how the class is designed with forcing you to be in a Dex role with Spell Combat and heavy negatives for casting with Spell Combat, the only real way to play the magus optimally is to constantly weave in your 5-foot-step to have you in and out of threat range. Additionally, Spellstrike is almost a hindrance as you still are behind the damage output of other martial classes even though you get both weapon and spell damage, so it is better for you to combine the above strategy of weaving in and out of combat and casting spells that do not work with Spellstrike and work with the Touch AC when it comes to attacking spells.
If you are forcing yourself to focus on Spellstrike, that means you have to build around crit fishing so that you can catch up or exceed other martial in damage due to spell damage being able to crit via Spellstrike...in a system that has you roll again to confirm your crits instead of just rewarding the good roll...with a class that, while giving you potentially multiple melee attacks a round, gives you negatives to those attacks when you are already trading Touch AC for full AC, makes you roll just to cast your spells near your opponent and put them into your weapon before even trying to attack them, and forcing you to waste your spell charge if you miss all your attacks and declared Spell Combat to try and max your damage output. So, for as much as the defining class features CAN work together, it feels like you are better off only aiming for one or the other which doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a class's features to be at odds with one another.
It just really feels like they figured out the class after taking a second go on it in PF2e, which still feels like it has a ton of customization options, possibly more than it actually had prior. I also understand that more levels into the class ends up taking care of a number of issues the class has, but a class should feel more self-complimenting and playable in early levels and just get better later on rather than being behind/in a hole early on and having to play catch up.
Am I just an inexperienced doofus here, or do some of the more experienced Pathfinders agree with some of these points?
LOL, le me put it this way, My GM absolutely hated my Magus/ninja Blackblade, with his 1d10 shocking grasp/5d6 sneak attack absolutely destroying anything in its path.
Your error is trying to use a 2-handed weapon - there's no point to it. As you mentioned, it's a dex based fighter - quit trying to use a STR based weapon. And quit comparing it to a 2-handed martial as well.
You are trying to compare it to a martial class, which it is not. It is a casting class that can also do melee damage. It sounds to me like you are trying to use it as something it's not really meant to be. PLay it more like a dex based fighter or rogue, with spell capability and you'll do way better.
A decent build is
INT 16
DEX 18
Weapon: Rapier or Blackblade
Trait: Magical Lineage: Shocking Grasp
Ring of Wizardry: Level 1
Metamagic feat: intensified spells
feat: Arcane strike
Most used spells: Haste, Shocking Grasp, Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door
Look at the Dimensional Agility feat, it's a great way to get into flanking.
Remember, with Shocking Grasp, you gain +3 to hit if the opponent is wearing metal armor, and then do everything you can to be invisible, and/or flanking. Flanking gives a +2, being invisible gives you another +2, plus ignores Dex mods. So being in flanking and invisible against an opponent wearing metal, you are +7 to hit (not to mention the dex loss)
Mix it with anything that gets sneak attack damage, combined with haste and you will see a significant damage output.
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The Magus only favors dexterity builds for one reason: You start with light armor. If the Magus started with medium armor, you'd see plenty of strength builds.
The Magus is a "hybrid" class. It is meant to be both martial and caster. That said, touch spells rarely have saving throws attached, so a high casting stat isn't necessary if you build around it.
Overall, the Magus is a high risk high reward class. You can dish out some of the biggest damage in the game, but there are limitations about how and when you can do that. It's also a highly versatile class, being able to cast many spells in and out of combat.
The only thing I'd change about the Magus if I had the option is give them the medium armor at level 1. A class going from light armor to heavy armor as it levels probably sounded fun to some designer, but it makes for a very clunky play through.
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Magus pwns. Next question.
FM, I hate to say you're doing it wrong but....maybe you have to reexamine some basic assumptions and reevaluate your playstyle.
Sounds more like he's just complaining that he doesn't like the playstyle. Which is sort of a fair opinion, but far from true for every user.
LOL, le me put it this way, My GM absolutely hated my Magus/ninja Blackblade, with his 1d10 shocking grasp/5d6 sneak attack absolutely destroying anything in its path.
Your error is trying to use a 2-handed weapon - there's no point to it. As you mentioned, it's a dex based fighter - quit trying to use a STR based weapon. And quit comparing it to a 2-handed martial as well.
You are trying to compare it to a martial class, which it is not. It is a casting class that can also do melee damage. It sounds to me like you are trying to use it as something it's not really meant to be. PLay it more like a dex based fighter or rogue, with spell capability and you'll do way better.
A decent build is
INT 16
DEX 18Weapon: Rapier or Blackblade
Trait: Magical Lineage: Shocking Grasp
Ring of Wizardry: Level 1
Metamagic feat: intensified spells
feat: Arcane strikeMost used spells: Haste, Shocking Grasp, Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door
Look at the Dimensional Agility feat, it's a great way to get into flanking.
Remember, with Shocking Grasp, you gain +3 to hit if the opponent is wearing metal armor, and then do everything you can to be invisible, and/or flanking. Flanking gives a +2, being invisible gives you another +2, plus ignores Dex mods. So being in flanking and invisible against an opponent wearing metal, you are +7 to hit (not to mention the dex loss)
Mix it with anything that gets sneak attack damage, combined with haste and you will see a significant damage output.
Well first off, using your character that multiclassed isn't really a fair comparison to just a pure Magus, nor someone who only has Magus lvls but perhaps picked an archetype.
Second, I've actually heard others say the opposite: that it's a martial class that can cast a few spells. Either that means the class was well-balanced, or it means that class was poorly designed that it lacks a true identity. As I see it, it's a class that tried to have its cake and eat it too, but knocked the cake off their plate in an attempt to take a bite and it splatted all over the floor: the facts are that in an attempt to make a spellblade class that can cast spells and wields a weapon in combat simultaneously, they gutted the perks of a Fighter and a Wizard to have a class that feels incredibly limited on its own and downright punishing and unfun to play at early levels.
Thirdly, I've more than enough looked at multiple builds talking about the Magus. Their best spells, best feats, traits, archetypes, multiclass opportunities, the tech you can have with wands and Dimension Door with certain feats...so I have a good grasp on what is OPTIMAL, but unfortunately I didn't ask for optimal: I was asking for fun with a big beefy Aphorite woman who smacked things with a magically-charged Lucerne Hammer by night and forged weapons by day. I could forge the weapons by golly, but that had nothing to do with being a Magus outside of it connecting with her lore on why she could cast magic and weave it into weapons and armor.
And see, we've now entered the segment that I expected I would, which is being told how I should play the game. Now this may sound like I have an ego, acting as if I know better than an entire team dedicated to making TTRPG content, but throw me a bone here with this one: If a class needs to be heavily optimized to function at all rather than just functioning at maximum efficiency, isn't that a failure on the designer? To sound even more arrogant, shouldn't a class be designed to have more than one way to play it? Shouldn't there NOT be an actual correct way to play the class?
If that wasn't clear enough, what I'm saying is that the very fact you are telling me I'm playing the game 'wrong' because I should use the same stats as everyone else, only fight with very particular weapons like everyone else, grab the same feats and spells...what that tells me is that there is only one way to play this class, which is what I listed as a negative, and is evidence of the short-sightedness with the original PF1e design of the class.
And just to be clear, there is a massive difference between trying to run a Wizard with a negative Int mod and a massive Str mod...and trying to run a class that mixes spellcasting and martial prowess using Str instead of Dex. The option to build that way with weapons that work with Str should have ALWAYS been there, and with PF2e now they are.
Also, none of this changes the fact that playing the class from the start feels awful due to all the negatives the class has: way less bonus feats/no weapon training from Fighter, fewer spells per day/in their list than Wizard, negatives to all attack rolls when using Spell Combat, being forced into taking a Defensive Casting roll as apparently the best option when casting while in a threat area despite the whole idea is that the class will be in the frontlines, forced into needing Str Dex and Int to be high stats(with Con being a bit of a requirement since you are in the fray) or to take feats early on to focus on Dex, not getting medium armor prof until 7th lvl despite being in the fray from the get-go, second core class feature often clashes with the first rather than melding with it, other class features are essentially filling in the hole that was dug rather than providing fun and unique features to the class.
Like, just imagine for a moment that you didn't need to get extra bonuses to Concentration checks because you already got those bonuses earlier in the class, so now you could change a class feat to...idk, making your weapon a temporary spell-storing weapon, with proper limitations in place so that it isn't strictly better than having a proper magical weapon of the same ilk? Maybe Spell Combat lets you replace one of your higher BAB melee hits with casting another spell, so 8th lvl you can choose two melee attacks and a spell Or two spells and a melee attack? Maybe work it into Spellstrike so that at later levels when you land a successful Spellstrike you can cast another spell in that turn as long as the spell met certain restrictions?
But no, the class is front-loaded with so many negatives that players who've played the game for years tell you that you have to build your character in a very specific way to have the class function at lower levels and I just see that as a massive failure.
PF2e letting you choose to be Str or Dex based is a great call, and allowing you to pick from not just a traditional 'sword and spellbook/spell' but also 2HW, 'I cast these hands', an actual arcane archer or someone who tosses magically-charged daggers, sword and spellbook but your spellbook is actually a shield AND just going the traditional way of the wooden bonker...and each one is not only a real choice that functions properly, but Hybrid Studies give you even more support for playing the way you choose...whereas to do any of that in PF1e, you have to sacrifice core parts of the class rather than lose nothing and gain more.
Honestly vastly superior, and the Arcane Cascade stance is just a fun and interactive mechanic that easily trumps Arcane Pool points without being overly complicated, and the feats you get every two levels to really customize how you play even further than what I mentioned above...in comparison, PF1e Magus not even being fun to play without very heavy min-maxing and situational encounters on top of that until later levels just doesn't compete.
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To be very fair, pretty much all casters start off as "being only able to cast a few spells". The cleric or druid is a full caster, but at low level they will spend more time attacking than casting. The magus isn't a better low level caster than the druid or cleric. You will start off with just a few battle spells per day. But you get more spells and then you get spell recall, and then you can be casting an awful lot. But also, you have your arcane pool to boost your attacks and so you are also a good martial.
Personally, I think the magus does a fine job of walking between both caster and martial. It's as much of one as it is of the other.
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Maybe it's just me, but after playing a bit of the Magus and really looking into it and all it's options
- It is built strictly as a Dex-based Martial that has half-casting, to the point where the core mechanics of Spell Combat or Spellstrike don't work with 2-handed weapons without DM homebrew, forcing you to play a specific way with 1-handed light weapons. This seems like a massive oversight fundamentally that those who made this class couldn't see past the single vision they had of a stereotypical spellblade.
With respect, none of what you mentioned above is an oversight, nor does it make the Magus a poorly-designed class. It just makes it a class you don't like--and that's fine.
To begin with, a Magus isn't strictly a Dex-based class. Nor is it limited to light weapons (which are separate from one-handed weapons). It doesn't force you to play in a specific way any more than, say, a Rogue or a Monk does.
- Trying to do this without homebrew means taking the Arcane Marauder archetype, ...
The Arcane Marauder is a third party archetype. Your mileage may vary.
- Despite being a casting class, the casting stat (Int) isn't as important to have super high as it is to have a high Dex as you can't get medium armor until 7th lvl and heavy until 13th and you will be on the front lines. I've heard you just aren't rewarded as much as other half-casters or full casters for having a high casting stat, which doesn't make sense as you should be equally rewarded.
That depends on your play style. If you're playing a Kensai, for example, your Intelligence also boosts your AC and your Initiative, and that's before we talk about the Arcane Accuracy Arcana.
Since every character should have a decent Con Mod and the Magus will eventually get hit by being on the front lines, this makes the Magus very MAD.
Again, this is about play style. SHOULD you be constantly on the front lines? At 1st level, you have access to Blade Lash, which is effectively an auto-trip from a safe distance. How often WILL the Magus get hit? By 4th level, you have access to Mirror Image, which gives you a 75 percent chance (on average) to avoid an attack and then a 50 percent chance for the next one, etc.
- Casting in melee threat range requires you to Cast Defensively or to risk an AoO and having to roll concentration anyway. Defensive Casting DC is 15 + Double Spell lvl, which means even just a normal 1st level spell needs you to beat a 17 DC. The math was done by someone else, and the odds of you beating that when you only add your caster level and Int mod to the roll are very low for the beginning levels...unless you grab Combat Casting as your 1st lvl feat, but the issue now is you have to waste a feat just to resolve an early game issue that doesn't exist later on in levels.
This is where the game's tactics come into play. Yes, you could it on the front line, trading blows and inviting attacks of opportunity for trying to cast a spell in front of someone trying to murder you. OR, you could take advantage of the 5-foot step. Even better, you can give yourself reach (via Long Arm, available at 1st level) AND use the 5-foot step to avoid casting defensively altogether. By 4th level, when you have Bladed Dash available, you can now pounce--the holy grail for melee characters.
- You get a default -2 to all attack rolls (spell or otherwise) made when using Spell Combat, ... This means that you actually DO want a higher Int to have more spells per day than you usually get to make up for this.
Correct, because the WHOLE POINT of the Magus is to be a superior warrior by way of spellcasting and Arcana.
Also, to try and mitigate the Concentration issue, Spell Combat allows you to take further negatives on your attack rolls (up to your Int mod) to increase your chances of successfully Casting Defensively...but that means you will likely miss your melee attacks, which defeats the purpose of Spellstrike and the class itself. Thus this is more proof that you need a high Int mod so as to not need to take more negatives to your melee roles in addition to having more Arcane Pool points and spell options...so the Magus really does want you to have at least a 16 in Str, Dex, and Int to function properly when not factoring in feats...which you shouldn't HAVE to grab certain feats just to make the class bearable to play.
You may consider the alternative: by a certain level, the Magus has ways to ensure that he's not likely to miss, even with an added penalty to attack: Shocking Grasp against metal-armored opponents, Arcane Accuracy and Accurate Strike Arcana, the Dimensional Blade spell, etc. This gives the Magus more flexibility in terms of where and when he chooses to cast spells (relative to his opponents).
- Arcane Pool at base feels mostly like a bandaid solution to the negatives you get from Spell Combat rather than making an actual solution, with the really good part of it not factoring in until 5th lvl, and even then you have to sacrifice portions of your enhancement bonus to get the extra properties...and we all know you should be grabbing Keen as often as possible anyway.
I look at this completely differently. While it might be handy to add a +1 or +2 bonus to a weapon, or to add a property, beyond level 5 I would be looking at Arcana Pool primarily as a means to power your Arcana. Start by making it really hard for you to miss (Arcane Accuracy), then expand your capabilities (Wand Wielder, to not run out of spells; Spell Blending*, to give yourself even better spells), and eventually Haste yourself for a battle (Hasted Assault).
If there's one negative thing about the Arcana and Arcane Pool, it's that most of the options are lackluster, narrowing down your choices to a few VERY GOOD ones.
* Hell, pick Sense Vitals to sneak attack them to death while enjoying Greater Invisibility.
- All the other class features feel as though they are offering more options to make up for how much things suck for the class early on instead of the class already being strong and really making the class crazy cool. Magus Arcana have cool additional options, but so many of the choices are more bandaid fixes for the negatives the class has; All forms of Spell Recall, Knowledge Pool, and Greater Spell Access are there to semi-address how few spells you get a day and your very limited spell list; ...
Again, with respect, right now you're complaining about it being really hard to run out of ways to auto-trip people, to make yourself very hard to hit, or to get a full attack after a move action (with a bonus attack before you factor in Haste)... all while making it very difficult to miss (via your Arcana).
... The Capstone ...
Is literally the worse aspect of this class, and you can always take a different one.
Additionally, Spellstrike is almost a hindrance as you still are behind the damage output of other martial classes even though you get both weapon and spell damage, so it is better for you to combine the above strategy of weaving in and out of combat and casting spells that do not work with Spellstrike and work with the Touch AC when it comes to attacking spells. ...
I'm sorry, but none of this is correct. We've already addressed Dex-based impressions and the 5-foot step, but Spellstrike is in no way a hindrance. If anything, it expands your capabilities. With the right buff or the Lunge feat, it ensures you can do unto other melee combatants things that they couldn't hope to do to you.
"Forcing yourself" to focus on Spellstrike simply means adding the Keen property to a weapon that should've had an 18-20 crit range to begin with. Trying to NOT "crit fish" is essentially cutting off your nose to spite your face. And, as we've seen already, Arcana make you more likely to confirm critical hits than most melee combatants with Power Attack and no means of compensating for it--especially where iterative attacks are concerned.
Oh, and all that is just about a MELEE Magus. If you want to talk about an ACTUAL Dex-based Magus, have a look at, e.g., the Eldritch Archer.
Arcane Marauder is a 3rd party archetype.
Str-based magus works, but you have to think about it very differently from a normal fighter.
Int for magus matters, but it matters less because they focus more on attacks and buffs as opposed to saving throw spells.
Yeah you don't get heavy armor immidiately, but when you do, you suffer non of the penalties. If you want to use heavy armor you can play the Armored Battlemage or Sigilist archetypes.
If you don't want the penalties of Spell Combat then cast Blade Master's Tutor, problem solved. If you want to use spellstrike with a 2-handed weapon, then cast the spell via your weapon then free action grab the weapon. You won't get spell combat, but you will also not take the penalty. Remember Spell Combat is just a fancy Two-Weapon Fighting.
Yeah Magus is a MAD class, it happens when you are trying to be a Mage and a Martial at the same time with little compromise in either.
To you Arcane Pool is to mitigate the penalties of Spell Combat. In reality its to catch up with Fighters without having weapon expertise.
Yeah later class features remove the penalties of earlier class features. Welcome to half the classes in the game. The entire point is that you start at a certain point because you have a split focus (penalty), then become much better as you combine the two sides (benefit).
If you force yourself to focus on spellstrike or any one other aspect you are literally throwing away half the class. The point of the class is the flexibility to pick how you will run your turn to git your needs. Need to cast a buff/utility? Spell Combat so you can still deal damage. Want to go all out on attacks? Spellstrike Spell Combat. Want to attack and move? Spellstrike and move. Magus is the most versatile hybrid class.
If you are ignoring feats, you are ignoring how PF1 classes work. No class works well without feats. Not even casters work well without feats.
PF2 didn't figure out the class, it picked one side and forgot the other, while making it worse at...
Responding to these in order...
Okay, and? Doesn't change the fact that both the 1st and 3rd party archetypes tend to sacrifice much more than is realistically required to add some variety to the class.
I never said it doesn't work: I said you can't just have two high stats as a Magus. While a number of classes can get away with one or two, Magus without certain feats needs to have a minimum of a 16 in Str, Dex, and Int to not feel like complete ninnies.
If Int matters less for a Magus because they focus more on attacks, does that mean they are mostly a Martial class that can cast a few spells? We still haven't determined if that is the case, or if they are a caster that can attack in melee a little bit.
I never asked for heavy armor at 1st lvl, but someone else here stated that they would change it to medium armor at 1st lvl. The issue here is that if Dex is so important for the class early on, why even bother with armor in later levels if heavier armor dumps on your Dex mod to your AC? Doesn't that mean you are throwing away a portion of the whole point of your class design later on with a stat that you can't change?
I always cast BMT at the beginning of combat and pop an Arcane Pool. At 2nd lvl this nets me a whopping +5 to hit when utilizing Spell Combat which isn't much at all, and I have to use up one of my three spells a day and one of my Arcane Pool points to get there. Meanwhile the Fighter has a +5 to hit with the same Str mod as myself and already has two bonus feats to work with that might get him even higher or more damage or honestly just whatever they feel like they need for their build, and they spent no resources at all for that. Plus, my DM homebrewed that I could Spell Combat w/ my 2HW anyway, so it isn't even an issue with that but how even with that change it's clear the class isn't made with any other builds but 'sword and spellbook' in mind and thus is too limiting.
But you have massive compromises, as already addressed multiple times, and on top of that you now need to have more stats than other classes that high?
No, this isn't a subjective perspective thing: you wouldn't need to play catch up with the class was designed to not punish the player for playing it at early levels, and as such Arcane Pool is merely there to try and fill the gap to not have the class feel awful at all levels and give it a very minor amount of customization but at a resource cost... whereas the Fighter would just have feats that are always there and don't require resources.
This is where there is a fundamental disagreement: if you start at a point where you suck at the one thing you are supposed to do while everyone else starts off anywhere from sucking less to not sucking at all, where is the fairness there? Also, the realities of life don't always make for good gameplay mechanics: if I met someone who could both cast spells and attack with a weapon by any stretch, I would assume they either had training or talent enough and thus have already overcome such basic level difficulties since they can actually do the thing. Many TTRPGs have learned this lesson that a class sucking at what they are supposed to do doesn't appeal to players no matter what level they are, and as such have learned to go from being bad to just being less experienced. PF2e seems to have learned this as well.
I'm using Spell Combat w/ Spellstrike every combat I can while opening with BMT w/ Spell Combat so that I can start negating all negatives I can ASAP. Sadly because I have these negatives, even when I roll decent I'm still missing my attacks, but when your class focuses mostly on putting all your eggs onto one hammer thems the breaks. That much I've come to accept as any martial class would be in a similar situation...well you know, without the built-in negatives but other than that it's the same. Also the only thing I haven't done here is move because I thought FRA took up all your movement and you couldn't do both, not even 5FS but I have learned better on that now. What with all the archetypes that exist for all classes, I'm not sure that is 100% true.
It's less about ignoring feats, and more about being forced into taking certain feats early on to make the class functional at early levels due to the setback the class starts at, and the fact that not every DM will let you retrain feats later when they no longer have use at 7th lvl.
I disagree: it opened up being able to use any weapon without making any major sacrifices, makes it so you can have unique rewards for each style, and introduced a new mechanic that flows well and doesn't feel tacked on to fix a built-in issue with the class. Sure, they sacrificed being able to cast a spell that doesn't work with spellstrike and make a melee attack in the same turn, but what they added vs what they removed is overall better for the class I feel.
If you want to two hand a sword with Str and play a magus...then do that?
Pathfinder 1e is not a hard game. You can half ass almost any class and still do okay if the rest of team is equally invested.
I played up to level 17 with another player whose Card Caster Magus forgot to take iterative attacks half the time. He did fine.
The mechanics of the class steer one towards 1 handed weapons because Spell Combat is Two Weapon Fighting But Different. No one says that the Fighter is bad because he can't dual wield greatswords.
If you like the PF2 Magus great, you can join the PF2 circlejerk a few forums up.
I would disagree with the game 'not being hard' as innately having so many options all the time and the crunch you have to do both at creation and each level is hard in the sense that missing things is easy to do. The rest of my party is doing fine and enjoying their respective classes currently, though that could change in a few levels.
I wouldn't even say I've half-assed anything: only things I haven't utilized are movement in combat I didn't know I had and confusing all touch spells as Melee Touch Spells. Outside of those two things I've been pumping my numbers as much as I can, and for my 3rd lvl I was going to grab Power Attack to push them even higher since the increase in BAB would keep me at a +5 unless I grabbed Arcane Accuracy to bumps attacks in a round to +9.
Based on guides that care about being optimal, seems like the card caster is kinda meh. Not that I care about optimal myself, but Pathfinder as a system does, hence the issues I'm having.
I mean...I'm pretty sure the Fighter can grab feats via his busload of bonus combat feats to be able to TWF with greatswords. That aside, there is a difference between trying to dual-wield two giant weapons and trying to cast magic in a free hand real quick and then regrip your 2HW properly.
I'm not here to praise PF2 as I've never had a chance to play it: players in my group do the opposite and act like PF1 is perfect and that PF2 has no options just because it hasn't existed for over a decade yet. There are a number of things I think PF2 on the surface does better than PF1 as they are more player-friendly, but I've also seen some things I think don't make sense (like certain class feats being too weak for when you get them for example). I just noted a lot of issues that PF1 Magus has in its design that were resolved in PF2 and wanted to have a conversation about what other people thought about that. Clearly, the answer was the class is flawless in design and I'm an idiot for thinking otherwise and not just playing the same optimal playstyle as every other magus player.
Though a couple of you have been more reasonable, and I appreciate that.
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Guides are hardly majority opinion, though they do often end up flavoring the majority opinion. For instance Kurald places low importance on spell recall, while I consider it to be one of the Magus' best abilities.
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Guides are hardly majority opinion, though they do often end up flavoring the majority opinion. For instance Kurald places low importance on spell recall, while I consider it to be one of the Magus' best abilities.
Spell Recall is amazing. The ability to cast a spell you specifically need after you've run out of it (indicating you're in a precarious situation to begin with) is a life-saver.
Dex-based is very popular, but also carries 2 feat taxes. Magus isn't unique amongst classes in wanting to go down this path.
I guess the bigger question might be, "What kinds of feats are you missing out on by not taking weapon finesse and a dex-damage feat?" When I make a strength magus, my choice is extra arcane pool. 2 more points is pretty big at level 1, meaning I can often keep my weapon magic through an entire adventuring day. And in later levels those 2 points can become a level 2 spell and with Greater Spell recall that's an extra 4th level spell.
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My only experience playing a magus was definitely not an optimal archetype, but I still had fun playing the character. The mindblade makes the class into a spontaneous psychic caster, which makes spell combat VERY challenging to pull off: psychic spells have a much higher DC to cast defensively if you don't take a move action to center yourself, which you can't do as part of the full action for spell combat. It takes some investment in traits, feats, Int, and defensive spells to make viable at all. (Sadly, the perfect magic item for fixing the problem--the centering jewel--isn't PFS-legal.) Cassilda is 9th level now, and I've worked out a couple ways of making spell combat work, but she typically replies more on regular two-weapon fighting, pool strike, and occasionally stepping away to cast her higher level spells.
To be honest, despite all the drawbacks, the flexibility of the archetype's psychic weapon has kind of spoiled me on ever playing a plain old magus. The core concept of the old D&D soulknife psionic class has always fascinated me, though I never got to play one, and the mindblade gives me all of that schtick AND spellcasting.
Honestly I think an arcane duelist bard, any skald (spell warrior if rage is not your thing), or a blood rager (enlightened or standard with salamander bloodline) might be a better fit for you.
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str magus is good, just takes little more hits in combat
i ran one in pfs up to level 10
Honestly, focus on strength is a better build if you get to start a bit higher level. A regular (non-archetype) magus get's medium armor at level 7 and heavy armor at level 13.
If magui got heavy armor at level 1 you probably wouldn't see any dex based magus builds because of the hoops needed to jump through to get dex to damage.
Even with needing to wait till level 7, its reasonable for a magus to start with: STR 16 / DEX 14 / CON 12 / INT 16 / WIS 12 / CHA 7 (including a +2 racial bonus to int). It's not a bad starting point, even if no one stat is absolutely optimized.
Grab mithral kikko armor when you can get's armor check penalty down to 10% and eliminates the armor check penalty (which also eliminates the attack penalty for non-proficiency). Arcane Armor Training feat at level 3 will get you to no spell failure chance at the cost of a swift action (although magus does have a lot of uses for swift actions). By 4th level or so you can be wearing medium armor with mitigated penalties, and have a functional character. It's maybe not as optimized as some theoretical builds, but should play just fine.
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Luckily not every martial character relies on picking a two-handed weapon and Power Attack. It's a valid playstyle (and makes PF more accessible due to its simplicity), but personally I appreciate the variety Pathfinder offers, from sword and spell to natural attacks.
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Power Attack is really overvalued in my opinion. Other sources of damage are often available, and decreasing your hit bonus just means all of that other damage doesn't get to happen as often. It may be handy for surpassing DR, but there are often other ways around that. Mathematically Power Attack can be a very tiny damage per round increase, but that's a very tiny increase for the cost of a feat.
For magus especially, almost no build would benefit from power attack, as they often get a lot of bonus damage from spellstrike.
A strength magus should find himself two handing a weapon sometimes.
*With Spellstrike and the rules for touch spells, you can cast a touch spell, then move and then deliver the attack as a free action. There's no reason you couldn't put both hands on the sword for that attack.
*You might be holding a charge from a previous round.
*You might simply want to conserve your spells, if the fight is wrapping up.
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I disagree that power attack is overvalued, as on a lot of full BAB characters it is absolutely the gold standard for adding damage to the character. On a magus specifically, I wouldn't bother with it.
I think most(if not all) classes could have used a "unchained" version even if I like the original version.
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I disagree that power attack is overvalued, as on a lot of full BAB characters it is absolutely the gold standard for adding damage to the character. On a magus specifically, I wouldn't bother with it.
It may be the gold standard, but it rarely should be. Run the numbers on it. After adding in damage from spells, magic weapons, class abilities and other feats, you lose almost as much dpr as you gain from power attack. In some extreme cases, Power Attack can even be a DPR decrease. Maybe the majority of the time it gives a tiny DPR increase, but that's at the cost of a feat, so in my opinion it's not worth it unless you're using it as a prerequisite for something else.
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I think most(if not all) classes could have used a "unchained" version even if I like the original version.
I'd rather opt for a complete (and revamped) collection of Variant Multiclass choices before Unchaining the rest of the classes. Specifically, I'd like it to work something along the lines of PF2e dedication feats. You pick and choose which character feats you give up to progress and you don't have to take all of them.
Yeah, I should have mentioned that Power Attack is "better" at low level before other sources of damage kick in.
Even then, it's still a fairly small change to DPR
Using your example
(AC 14 without power attack is 60% to hit * 5,5+6 or 11 damage)
* that's .6*11 = 6.6 damage per round
(With power attack (55% to hit) 14 damage)
* that's .55*14 = 7.7 damage per round
PA is also worse if you care about hitting for more than just damage. Like the swashbuckler wants to hit and crit confirm to regain panache.
Sorry for the continuation of a derail, but I can't leave something this wrong stad unchecked.
Run the numbers on it. After adding in damage from spells, magic weapons, class abilities and other feats, you lose almost as much dpr as you gain from power attack. In some extreme cases, Power Attack can even be a DPR decrease. Maybe the majority of the time it gives a tiny DPR increase, but that's at the cost of a feat, so in my opinion it's not worth it unless you're using it as a prerequisite for something else.
Please tell me you're only talking about medium BAB characters, because otherwise, you just said makes absolutely no sense. I mean, Power Attack is not a must have for every martial, far from it, but it's more often than not hard to justify a not-terribly-build martial with two-handed weapon, natural weapons, or (non-TWFed) unarmed strikes not taking Power Attack. The increase in damage is usually greater than any other feat you could take, often significantly so.
Yeah, I should have mentioned that Power Attack is "better" at low level before other sources of damage kick in.
Unless you get a huge boost form your class, it takes a long time before the "other sources of damage" outweight the starting stuff (for two-handed weapons, that is). With 18 strength a greatsword deals 13 average damage with no other bonuses. 13 damage. Let's say you're a 10th level fighter, you have a belt and 2 pips in strength, +2 Weapon Training, taken Weapon Specialization, and got your hands on a +3 weapon. all those things increase the damage by... +10.
Meanwhile, at 1st level, you have a 70% chance to hit a monster with average AC for CR=your level. At 10th level, not only do you have a 05% chance to hit such an enemy, you've actually wasted a point of attack roll bonus (and that's withour Greater Weapon Focus or Gloves of Dueling).
Seriously, on many classes you need Power Attack just to not waste attack roll bonus!
Yes, Power Attack is garbage for a Shocking Grasp using Magus, but acting as if the feat didn't add a ton of damage to a ton of builds is nonsensical.
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Iterative attacks still need the extra bonus. And it's harder to math out, but the lower accuracy also lowers your odds of confirming crits on those non-capped attacks.
Now, a fighter has a ton of feats and there are only so many to go around. So yeah, any 10th level fighter is probably going to have that feat.
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As others have mentioned, a Str-based magus is viable; it just starts a little slower at low level play. One possible option for a Str-based magus (if you don't mind multiclassing) is magus 4/skald (spell warrior) 1/dragon disciple (advance magus spellcasting) 4/magus +X to gain a +4 Str and +3 natural armor, plus the Enhance Weapons weapon song and the ability to use wands of cure light wounds without UMD checks, in exchange for -1 BAB (while gaining a +2 to your Str mod; a net gain for melee attacks), losing two levels of magus casting progression, and delaying some magus class features.
If you don't want to do the "crit-fishing damage magus," then you might want to consider using a whip and focusing on using Spellstrike with debuffs/SoD/SoS spells at 15 ft. It may be worthwhile to start in a full-BAB class at 1st level with Weapon Focus (Whip)*, then switching to magus (hexcrafter)** at 2nd character level and taking Whip Mastery at 3rd character level. With a higher Str, disarms and trips can be fairly effective for "debuffing" at lower levels when not using Spellstrike.
Just because the Dex-based magus is considered "optimal" by many, doesn't mean it is the only route to go with for an effective character.
*-with some way of gaining whip proficiency, either through a racial trait, bonus feat, or class/archetype feature
**-can also take bladebound if you want a black blade whip
This goes beyond Strength versus Dexterity, but another option would be to combine the (more or less ubiquitous) Magical Lineage trait with a damaging spell that doesn’t allow a saving throw (such as the equally ubiquitous Shocking Grasp) and metamagic feats like Tumultuous Spell and/or Authoritative spell. The former puts distance between your Magus and his opponent (preventing a retaliatory full attack), while the latter denies the targeted an enemy their most dangerous action.
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As others have mentioned, a Str-based magus is viable; it just starts a little slower at low level play.
It’s funny because out of the gate it’s more damage, and in niche cases it continues to offer more damage. You are just noticeably less survivable. If your party has a dedicated healer, strength magus may be the best magus.
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As others have said, a Str based magus works fine.
More important, learn how a 5' step works (in the thread in Advice it was clear that you didn't know that you can take a 5' step while using Spell combat).
Not in melee but within 5' of it? Declare spell combat, cast your spell, move 5' toward the enemy, and make your attack(s).
In melee and you want to cast a defensive spell? Declare spell combat, make your attacks, and 5' step away to avoid the Attack of Opportunity, then cast your spell.
Most of the guides seem to be about making glass cannons, but you can play a tanky magus. Shield, mirror image, blur are all options that increase your chances to avoid being hit.
An elven chain mail gives you 6 points of AC and counts as light armor, so you get a decent armor class relatively early.
Do you want to enter melee without provoking, from range? Spell combat, Bladed dash. You deliver 2 attacks, the first with your intelligence modifier as a bonus to the attack.
You have fewer spells than a pure spellcaster. Ok, but you aren't a pure spellcaster. You can use spell combat and Arcane mark to get one extra attack every round, with your primary weapon, "paying" it with a -2 to hit. Exactly what people using two-weapon combat do, but they use their secondary hand for the extra attack, so they need to have two good weapons, and the secondary hand deal less damage.
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My experience of seeing a strength-based Magus using a one-handed weapon is that after a few levels it did more damage than the average martial while having far more versatility and if they cast any defensive spells, more defensibility too. Low level Pearls of Power allow them to keep on doing doing their basic damaging spells across multiple encounters.
We should mention that using arcane mark as an attack is kind of shady. There are bound to be a few GMs who wouldn't allow that.
To sound even more arrogant, shouldn't a class be designed to have more than one way to play it? Shouldn't there NOT be an actual correct way to play the class?
yep, which is why there are quite a few Archetypes, plus the ability to multiclass.
There are a vast number of ways to play a Magus, some are exceptionally good, others are decent, and a couple are just bad.
IMO, your character concept didn't fit the Magus class at all. Not saying it isn't possible to do, I bet I could build a decent one, just that it really doesn't fit.
Now you may argue this as a fault in PF1, but picking a class that matches your concept is pretty important. If you are wanting to try to do something with your character that it's classes were not meant to do, then you aren't going to have a good time. Being an Wizard, but wanting to be the party healer - while it can be done, you are very subpar at it. Playing a Fighter, but wanting to cast spells all day. Again, possible, but sub par.
From what I can see, Multiclassing info Fighter (Titan fighter)/Cleric might have been a better option. Or, just going for Blood Rager
Both have the ability to Forge weapons, and to be a frontline fighter with a 2 handed, magically charged weapon.
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Wow, I can think of multiple ways to play just the base magus. I think we overstate optimization in this game. One playstyle may technically be more optimal than another, and yet the difference between them is so minor that you won't be able to tell the difference in how much the character is contributing. I've played a strength magus that was holding his own compared to a synthesist summoner. Synthesist is considered to be one of the stronger builds in the game, so much so that it is often banned in campaigns. People in the group were even voicing concern before the start because of it, yet I still contributed more in most combat encounters. Meanwhile, I was playing a fairly standard strength magus.
The spells are also very versatile. I can have shield prepared for encounters against hard hitters or large groups. So, defense can be covered at the cost of some offense for one round.
And while I haven't done it personally, you can even make a blaster magus and focus more on your intelligence and attack spells. Mow down enemies with your fireballs and burning hands and switch to melee when they decide to come to you. A magical switch hitter.
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We should mention that using arcane mark as an attack is kind of shady. There are bound to be a few GMs who wouldn't allow that.
Magus: Can a magus use spell combat (page 10) with cantrips?
Yes. It is not limited to spells of level 1 or higher.
It is a way to get a second attack while suffering a -2 to hit, like Rapid Shot, but with an added chance of failure because of the concentration check.
The standard Magus lacks a damaging touch range cantrip, an Hexecrafter can use Brand for that. Losing Spell recall is a steep cost, but having hexes and all the spells with the Curse descriptor added to your spell list is a serious boon.
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Yeah, the shady part isn't about being a cantrip as much as arcane mark not really being intended for combat. It still works per RAW. I just warn to not expect every GM to go along with it.
The phantom blade spiritulist, which is very magus-like, has it even weirder. They have to use guidance or virtue as their "attack" spell. Still technically works, but it's even more "shady" and you're buffing your enemy in the process.
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On the bright side, applying Arcane Mark with a sword is pretty cinematic in a Zorro way.
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My first Magus I played in PF1 was a strength based Magus. Lawful Good half-elf that had hopes of becoming a Paladin but didn't quite make the cut due to certain ... let's say interested parties. So, instead he became a Magus with the Staff Master and Hexcrafter archetypes.
Survivability was moot past level 5. Those that could reach me in the air were dealt with swiftly. Those that could not were not long to survive.
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While a strength magus is less defensive in early levels, most builds have the "best defense", which is "more offense". In truth a lot of the time, something won't attack you, because you've already killed it. Large groups of enemies are the main concern. That's when you most want to break out the defensive spells with spell combat. And there are always options like fighting defensively when you get in over your head.