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(This thread is a discussion on Paizo's new book, Treasure Vault, and a compilation of the perceived power creep coming out of it.)
While reading about the alchemical gauntlet in the recently released Treasure Vault, I thought to myself:
That's a red flag when it comes to power creep.
Alchemical gauntlets are 10gp Common items (high at 1st level, but peanuts any other time). They allow you to add an alchemical bomb that deals energy damage to the gauntlet to get 1d4 energy damage on your next three gauntlet Strikes. Aside from price, they're superior to standard gauntlets in every way. They can be used by anyone with proficiency in Simple Weapons, do not require any alchemical knowledge whatsoever, make great secondary weapons to have when fighting unexpected encounters with elemental weaknesses, and can be used with the cheapest bombs (bomb level doesn't seem to matter).
What clear examples of power creep have you encountered during your forays within Valashinaz's treasure vaults? Let's start making a list!
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The energy damage doesn't scale and the only time that d4 damage is going to be competitive (tier one of play) will require a constant stream of gold to fuel the gauntlets (unless you're an alchemist) so I don't really consider it power creep when the regular gauntlet is a one time purchase that doesn't require a constant gold trickle and can later get property runes.
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The energy damage doesn't scale and the only time that d4 damage is going to be competitive (tier one of play) will require a constant stream of gold to fuel the gauntlets (unless you're an alchemist) so I don't really consider it power creep when the regular gauntlet is a one time purchase that doesn't require a constant gold trickle and can later get property runes.
Yeah, but it can do everything the regular gauntlet can and more, so, it's still power creep no matter how you look at it. Also, the 1d4 is really just the icing on the cake (that triggers weaknesses). It also stacks with your elemental runes and other abilities, so the bar is still being raised, even if it's only by a little.
The energy damage doesn't scale and the only time that d4 damage is going to be competitive (tier one of play) will require a constant stream of gold to fuel the gauntlets (unless you're an alchemist) so I don't really consider it power creep when the regular gauntlet is a one time purchase that doesn't require a constant gold trickle and can later get property runes.Yeah, but it can do everything the regular gauntlet can and more, so, it's still power creep no matter how you look at it. Also, the 1d4 is really just the icing on the cake (that triggers weaknesses). It also stacks with your elemental runes and other abilities, so the bar is still being raised, even if it's only by a little.
I would assume that alchemical gauntlets are specific magic items and couldn't benefit from property runes. Is that not the case?
I would assume that alchemical gauntlets are specific magic items and couldn't benefit from property runes. Is that not the case?The energy damage doesn't scale and the only time that d4 damage is going to be competitive (tier one of play) will require a constant stream of gold to fuel the gauntlets (unless you're an alchemist) so I don't really consider it power creep when the regular gauntlet is a one time purchase that doesn't require a constant gold trickle and can later get property runes.Yeah, but it can do everything the regular gauntlet can and more, so, it's still power creep no matter how you look at it. Also, the 1d4 is really just the icing on the cake (that triggers weaknesses). It also stacks with your elemental runes and other abilities, so the bar is still being raised, even if it's only by a little.
It's a nonmagical alchemical permanent item.
As gauntlet weapons, insofar as I can tell they can benefit from property runes just fine.
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I would assume that alchemical gauntlets are specific magic items and couldn't benefit from property runes. Is that not the case?The energy damage doesn't scale and the only time that d4 damage is going to be competitive (tier one of play) will require a constant stream of gold to fuel the gauntlets (unless you're an alchemist) so I don't really consider it power creep when the regular gauntlet is a one time purchase that doesn't require a constant gold trickle and can later get property runes.Yeah, but it can do everything the regular gauntlet can and more, so, it's still power creep no matter how you look at it. Also, the 1d4 is really just the icing on the cake (that triggers weaknesses). It also stacks with your elemental runes and other abilities, so the bar is still being raised, even if it's only by a little.It's a nonmagical alchemical permanent item.
As gauntlet weapons, insofar as I can tell they can benefit from property runes just fine.
Fair enough. I'll still consider the gold and action cost of refilling your gauntlets mid combat enough of a balancing factor. It does creep alchemists using gauntlets a little but they need all the help they can get
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I mean, is it really that big a deal? Gauntlets aren't exactly the greatest weapon; I've been playing the game since day one of playtest and have never seen anyone use gauntlet strikes; even when using automatic bonus progression
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The energy damage doesn't scale and the only time that d4 damage is going to be competitive (tier one of play) will require a constant stream of gold to fuel the gauntlets (unless you're an alchemist) so I don't really consider it power creep when the regular gauntlet is a one time purchase that doesn't require a constant gold trickle and can later get property runes.Yeah, but it can do everything the regular gauntlet can and more, so, it's still power creep no matter how you look at it. Also, the 1d4 is really just the icing on the cake (that triggers weaknesses). It also stacks with your elemental runes and other abilities, so the bar is still being raised, even if it's only by a little.
It can, but who is really going to be wasting time on this kind of thing past, say, 5th level? Gauntlets are a D4 unarmed weapon. Monks already do more damage without any investment (and overshadow it once investment is placed), and other classes are either not going to use this type of weapon because they have access to better, or will simply invest in Monk-type things to boost their unarmed potential. It's simply just a fun little item that has a neat feature attached to it, not unlike Alchemical Crossbows and stuff.
Having the capacity to spend some gold on consumables to buff your next 3 Strikes with an additional D4, which takes prep, and can easily do nothing against enemies with resistance or immunities, very common when you get to mid level, hardly constitutes as power creep.
I will say that I'm sick of people pointing out the absolute minute things in the system being an "improvement" and calling it power creep. To me, for it to be power creep, it has to be the new standard that optimizers will go for in place of what was already there. And this item simply doesn't fulfill that definition.
It's an interesting idea for a Melee Alchemist and would work ok as a secondary Free Hand weapon for that build. Otherwise, I don't see the item setting the PF2 world on fire. I can honestly see power gamers buying it "because it's better than an ordinary gauntlet" and then never actually using it.
I'm never going to become the next steward of Valashinaz’s vaults if I can't even get a simple list of powerful artifacts put together. :'(
Surely there's something you consider power creep. (It's fine if we disagree, but let's not let that stop us from archiving the important bits for posterity.)
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I will say that I'm sick of people pointing out the absolute minute things in the system being an "improvement" and calling it power creep. To me, for it to be power creep, it has to be the new standard that optimizers will go for in place of what was already there. And this item simply doesn't fulfill that definition.
It isn't this item, but that isn't to day they're isn't a fair bit in this book that looks juicy. The new energy ammunition, energy mutagen as common, weapon siphon for dual-wielding builds, flying tattoo as a cheaper flying item that keeps land speed, the helm with status bonus to AC vs evil, the bonus focus point items, some other fun looking stuff. It'll be fun going over everything and seeing what can be squeezed out.
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Some of us might be waiting until the book is released and every item can be read in context with the other items in the book and any additional rules discussed in the book before weighing in on conversations about the general balance of the game after the book is released.
I remember how much talk there was of the shadow signet changing the balance of casting forever. I have seen one caster use it maybe 2 times total in over 10 encounters where they had it. I think "bronkenness" of an item is much more dependent on how it gets used in practice than how it changes meta-analysis of rarely used options. If we suddenly can't stop talking about bomb-puncher-super builds in 2 months, then I think it is time to get out the coyboy hats.
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I mean, is it really that big a deal? Gauntlets aren't exactly the greatest weapon; I've been playing the game since day one of playtest and have never seen anyone use gauntlet strikes; even when using automatic bonus progression
Definitely what I would say to that. Gauntlets are a backup weapon at best. Very slightly improving on them isn't powercreep, it's peanuts.
In over 2 years of playing my current character (Tyrant), I used them exactly twice and that is with ABP. Once to try to get out of a sea serpent's stomach via spiked gauntlets, which failed spectacularly. The other was a few weeks ago and that was purely for RP reasons - someone really asked for it ;). It worked beautifully and dealt more damage than the average cannon round, but that isn't because the gauntlet is a particularly good weapon.
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My champion punches criminals with his gauntlets in Agents of Edgewatch all the time, so I may be a little biased. For me, these would be a strict upgrade. (I even have a couple dozen bombs that have been sitting in a bag of holding doing nothing.)
That being said, my gauntlets ARE backup weapons, typically used when I'm undercover or something and don't want to bring out my highly distinctive primary weapons.
The euphoric loop catalyst seems like it could be a cheap means of getting stunned 1, 2, or 3 on a target (depending on their save) for a 1st-level spell slot.
The euphoric loop catalyst seems like it could be a cheap means of getting stunned 1, 2, or 3 on a target (depending on their save) for a 1st-level spell slot.charm can only be dismiss if enemy fail
for a incapacitation spell that is not easy
Yeah, but the secondary save also triggers when the spell ends. If they make the primary save, the spell ends, and thus the second save versus stunned is triggered.
I mean, is it really that big a deal? Gauntlets aren't exactly the greatest weapon; I've been playing the game since day one of playtest and have never seen anyone use gauntlet strikes; even when using automatic bonus progressionit is a easier way to trigger certain type of damage weakness
cheaper than aligned oil for trigger good weakness
but there are far better way to trigger positive and elemental weakness
I don't think the gauntlets worked for non-elememental energy bombs.
not sure spell does nothing count as spell end for a specific enemyYeah, but the secondary save also triggers when the spell ends. If they make the primary save, the spell ends, and thus the second save versus stunned is triggered.The euphoric loop catalyst seems like it could be a cheap means of getting stunned 1, 2, or 3 on a target (depending on their save) for a 1st-level spell slot.charm can only be dismiss if enemy fail
for a incapacitation spell that is not easy
Something to check with the GM about I guess.
Something to check with the GM about I guess.not sure spell does nothing count as spell end for a specific enemyYeah, but the secondary save also triggers when the spell ends. If they make the primary save, the spell ends, and thus the second save versus stunned is triggered.The euphoric loop catalyst seems like it could be a cheap means of getting stunned 1, 2, or 3 on a target (depending on their save) for a 1st-level spell slot.charm can only be dismiss if enemy fail
for a incapacitation spell that is not easy
I don't think that would work, if only because a success or a critical success on the initial save would be a better outcome than if they had failed. You would save the action having to dismiss the spell. I doubt that was intended.
It's super high level and Rare, but the cloning potion let's you cast two two-action spells per round for a full minute.
Short of one action spells, I don't think that's something we've seen before in 2e.
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The Panabas is power creep in that it's literally a strict upgrade over the scimitar.
But it's also not power creep in that it's literally a strict downgrade over the bastard sword.
So how do you even define power creep in that context?
... Bola Shot stands out to me as really good. It's basically improved knockdown for any ranged character for 25 GP. A little expensive on-level, but they automatically scale so you can buy a ton of them at higher levels. It doesn't save you actions, but it essentially gives you ranged trip with any weapon, and lets you make trip checks with your dex modifier and 0 athletics.
In general I feel like Treasure Vault really highlights the way consumables with fixed DCs kind of struggle with relevancy because of the narrow level ranges they work at, while consumables that don't rely on DCs have the potential to become really exploitable later on when their cost ceases to matter.
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I will say that I'm sick of people pointing out the absolute minute things in the system being an "improvement" and calling it power creep. To me, for it to be power creep, it has to be the new standard that optimizers will go for in place of what was already there. And this item simply doesn't fulfill that definition.It isn't this item, but that isn't to day they're isn't a fair bit in this book that looks juicy. The new energy ammunition, energy mutagen as common, weapon siphon for dual-wielding builds, flying tattoo as a cheaper flying item that keeps land speed, the helm with status bonus to AC vs evil, the bonus focus point items, some other fun looking stuff. It'll be fun going over everything and seeing what can be squeezed out.
The thing is that none of those things feel like they improve upon something in any manner to mean "These make my character build so much stronger than what was possible before with no thought or brain power to it." Ammunition and other consumables have almost always been "meh" at best. In fact, I could probably live without most every consumable in the game except for the basic healing potion or scroll (because sacred cows and fantasy staples). Holy Water? Useless past 1st level, and even then it's awful unless you're fighting some low level Fiends (useless against Undead). Mutagens? Comes with significant drawbacks, and half the time I need to know when to use it to actually benefit from it. Ammunition? Spellstrike Ammunition, which requires being a spellcaster, which is automatically bad with attack rolls, is probably the only decent magical ammunition there is. Yes, there's Magus, but if they're Shooting Star, then this ammunition doesn't really do anything except maybe save them an action for having to Recharge, and even then, they have to buff this ammunition regularly to maintain use for it with their spells and cantrips. The rest is beyond garbage due to constant Save DCs with poor scaling against monsters whom will almost always save against them unless that is their abysmal save.
As for the other things, until we're given the actual entries on, say, Nethys, it's all speculation. Maybe the Status Bonus to AC vs Evil is only against summoned Evil creatures, which makes it super niche and consequently garbage. The Bonus Focus Point item(s) might be nice, but it could also maybe cost investiture, or can only be used for focus points of certain levels or lower, and all it does is allow you more "burst" in an encounter if you need, or for a longer adventuring day, only half of which I would consider "power creep," but only because it gives you more staying power than before, the other is just good Quality of Life investment without having to spend 10 minutes constantly to Refocus. And who knows how the Flying Tattoo works. Does it expand into a thing that you can ride and it flies for a certain duration until which point you fall to your death? Does it provide temporary wings with a basic speed like the Fly spell? Can it be easily dispelled? It might also be Uncommon, so good luck trying to acquire it. And weapon siphon, who knows what that will do. Does it take magical properties from weapons and apply them to itself? Does it drain HP as damage dealt to the wielder? It's not specified, so who knows.
And I could just as easily be wrong on all of these things. But the point is, I'm not going to call it "power creep" until we have more evidence demonstrating what makes it power creep. Because even if it doesn't give you more raw power, it does give added versatility to characters we never had before, which means no matter what they publish, anything past the Core Rulebook could be considered "power creep," a definition I don't particularly agree with, since adventuring day longevity and quality of life adventuring doesn't really translate to encounter power IMO.
For a single action, the wind ocarina creates difficult terrain, deflects all personal ammunition (such as bullets, arrows,) removes gases, and creates breathable air, all at the same time. It's magic is then expended, leaving behind a mundane Virtuoso instrument.
This is power creep because it is only 50gp, has multiple powerful effects, and leaves behind a 50gp mundane item.
You would never buy a virtuoso handheld wind instrument when you could get this for the same price.
It straight up eliminates archers, gunslingers, and other ranged attackers that use ammunition as threats while also effectively debuffing thrown weapon users(-2 attacks no save) and mobile melee fighters (difficult terrain).
For a single action, the wind ocarina creates difficult terrain, deflects all personal ammunition (such as bullets, arrows,) removes gases, and creates breathable air, all at the same time. It's magic is then expended, leaving behind a mundane Virtuoso instrument.
This is power creep because it is only 50gp, has multiple powerful effects, and leaves behind a 50gp mundane item.
You would never buy a virtuoso handheld wind instrument when you could get this for the same price.
It straight up eliminates archers, gunslingers, and other ranged attackers that use ammunition as threats while also effectively debuffing thrown weapon users(-2 attacks no save) and mobile melee fighters (difficult terrain).
There's a lot to digest here, but:
1. This sounds like a single-use Wind Wall effect, which isn't particularly powerful except in specific circumstances. Wind Wall wouldn't be very effective against most enemies trying to move through it (there's still a Saving Throw, which is going to be trash because it's an item-based Save DC), and if their most effective means of attacking you is with projectiles, then it's honestly just a good use of a lower level effect, because it's otherwise pretty useless. (We have counteract checks for most anything, but not for counteracting sources from strikes? Big yikes here, Paizo.) Even so, a Wind Wall to block gaseous effects isn't extremely powerful, and is niche at best. And if it's more than that, then it's a specific effect, which may justify the single action effect. But still, replicating spell effects still usually takes as many actions as it does to cast the spell, and I don't see any reason why this should be an exception. (It's also some Legend of Zelda reference shenanigans, but one copyright infringement at a time here...)
2. Why would an item that does more than what its gold cost is require the same amount of gold? This sounds like a case for errata, because it mathematically doesn't make sense to permit this regardless of extra effect, and I highly suspect this isn't intended by the rules. Even if it does make it to print, it won't last past the first round errata, it's too obvious of an error in creation. Also, what's the rarity of this thing? Is it a Common item, or is it an Uncommon or even Rare item? Rarities do adjust the price on things, in which case that item would be worth more than 50 gold.
For a single action, the wind ocarina creates difficult terrain, deflects all personal ammunition (such as bullets, arrows,) removes gases, and creates breathable air, all at the same time. It's magic is then expended, leaving behind a mundane Virtuoso instrument.
This is power creep because it is only 50gp, has multiple powerful effects, and leaves behind a 50gp mundane item.
You would never buy a virtuoso handheld wind instrument when you could get this for the same price.
It straight up eliminates archers, gunslingers, and other ranged attackers that use ammunition as threats while also effectively debuffing thrown weapon users(-2 attacks no save) and mobile melee fighters (difficult terrain).
I'd check that out if I had access to the book...
Yeah, the weirdest thing about the Ocarina is that it turns into a 50 GP mundane item after you use it, since it effectively makes it half priced if you can sell it back (which requires a little GM discretion but usually is doable).
Considering just its base effect it's Wall of Wind with better action economy but a much smaller effect, no ability to stop flyers, and a two-thirds higher price than a scroll.
Should turn into a normal instrument or just dissolve, not a virtuoso one.
I'd check that out if I had access to he book...For a single action, the wind ocarina creates difficult terrain, deflects all personal ammunition (such as bullets, arrows,) removes gases, and creates breathable air, all at the same time. It's magic is then expended, leaving behind a mundane Virtuoso instrument.
This is power creep because it is only 50gp, has multiple powerful effects, and leaves behind a 50gp mundane item.
You would never buy a virtuoso handheld wind instrument when you could get this for the same price.
It straight up eliminates archers, gunslingers, and other ranged attackers that use ammunition as threats while also effectively debuffing thrown weapon users(-2 attacks no save) and mobile melee fighters (difficult terrain).
1) all normal size ammunition (arrows, bolts, etc) cannot pass through the area, -2 circumstance penalty to attacks from thrown or larger sized weapons, no penalty to massive weapons and spell effects that don't make physical objects.
1a) this applies to all attacks that go through the area so you and your allies also can't make ranged attacks that go through the area
2) difficult terrain in AoE
3) gases, including gaseous form creatures, can't enter area and are pushed out on activation
4) all air in AoE, and your space, is breathable
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I'd check that out if I had access to he book...For a single action, the wind ocarina creates difficult terrain, deflects all personal ammunition (such as bullets, arrows,) removes gases, and creates breathable air, all at the same time. It's magic is then expended, leaving behind a mundane Virtuoso instrument.
This is power creep because it is only 50gp, has multiple powerful effects, and leaves behind a 50gp mundane item.
You would never buy a virtuoso handheld wind instrument when you could get this for the same price.
It straight up eliminates archers, gunslingers, and other ranged attackers that use ammunition as threats while also effectively debuffing thrown weapon users(-2 attacks no save) and mobile melee fighters (difficult terrain).
** spoiler omitted **
Thanks! I agree with Squiggit. The only issue seems to be the fact that you get a 50 gp item back after use. The item itself seems ok otherwise.
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I like the idea of trying to find valuable use of the new items we have in this book. Sounds like awesome cause for hype.
I must admit the enthusiasm from posters in this thread and others about items they saw does make me consider buying it, whereas I was not much interested before.
Now, knowing it comes from Michael Sayre, I should have expected something like this.
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destroy arrow and bolt are the effect of level 5 red chromatic wall
carry that effect around are part of prismatic sphere
the rest is carry the effect of air bubble and wall of wind for 1 minute with 1 action
Did you not read the part where people were comparing the Wind Ocarina effect to that of level 3 Wall of Wind?
Seems to me a wand of choking mist is a great way to shut down casters that rely on verbal components.
Maybe too good. A fighter with Blindfight is going to absolutey destroy enemy casters subjected to this thing. Ally uses the wand, fighter Strides to the enemy caster, and then grapples to keep them in the area. Fight is pretty much over.
So now we have a single cheap item that shuts down many ranged attackers, and another that shuts down pretty much every caster.
Seems like this book is chock full of "I win" buttons.
(Or since this is a team game, "we win" buttons.)
Definitely sniffs of power creep to me.
Ally uses the wand, fighter Strides to the enemy caster, and then grapples to keep them in the area. Fight is pretty much over.
So the same thing we do with the CRB's Silence spell?
Seems to me a wand of choking mist is a great way to shut down casters that rely on verbal components.
Don't know what it does, so can't really say much...
Seems to me a wand of choking mist is a great way to shut down casters that rely on verbal components.Don't know what it does, so can't really say much...
cast obscuring mist or solid fog depending on wand level. The mist/fog prevents breathing in the area and anyone inside must hold their breath or begin to suffocate. Frankly underwhelming, but laying suffocation and trapping an enemy inside a wall of stone/ice/force will always be funny.
cast obscuring mist or solid fog depending on wand level. The mist/fog prevents breathing in the area and anyone inside must hold their breath or begin to suffocate. Frankly underwhelming, but laying suffocation and trapping an enemy inside a wall of stone/ice/force will always be funny.Seems to me a wand of choking mist is a great way to shut down casters that rely on verbal components.Don't know what it does, so can't really say much...
Hmmm... Really depends on level: as long it's a reasonable level, seems fine.
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cast obscuring mist or solid fog depending on wand level. The mist/fog prevents breathing in the area and anyone inside must hold their breath or begin to suffocate. Frankly underwhelming, but laying suffocation and trapping an enemy inside a wall of stone/ice/force will always be funny.
So, similar to Aqueous Orb except that you cast it on top of them instead of chasing them around with it.
Seems reasonable. The price point might be slightly off but really a 5ft emanation is not much battlefield control. Takes 2 hands to use so you have to sheath and then draw whatever else you are holding (so adds to action cost). Really its not that big of a deal. 25gp (if you sell it back) for a 5ft lesser windwall effect seems almost reasonable. I wouldn't pay 50gp for that effect especially if I otherwise held a weapon or shield. Super situational, strong for those rare moments its required but the opportunity cost of 50gp for something that might be useful, that is likely going to be at the bottom of my pack rather than on my belt in place of a healers kit or scroll or potion with more universal use is unlikely.
I would rather this was a talisman.
Ally uses the wand, fighter Strides to the enemy caster, and then grapples to keep them in the area. Fight is pretty much over.So the same thing we do with the CRB's Silence spell?
Silence never killed anyone. This potentially can. Otherwise, yep.
Also, unlike silence, any caster can use this wand since the spells appear on all tradition lists.
Follow up with something like hideous laughter, and suddenly the black cloud is a save or die scenario. Take out any breathing boss in a one-two punch. Oh, they passed their save? Hit 'em with HL again. It's low level and scrolls are cheap. You only need keep them in the area or spam more of it.
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Ally uses the wand, fighter Strides to the enemy caster, and then grapples to keep them in the area. Fight is pretty much over.So the same thing we do with the CRB's Silence spell?Silence never killed anyone. This potentially can. Otherwise, yep.
Also, unlike silence, any caster can use this wand since the spells appear on all tradition lists.
Follow up with something like hideous laughter, and suddenly the black cloud is a save or die scenario. Take out any breathing boss in a one-two punch. Oh, they passed their save? Hit 'em with HL again. It's low level and scrolls are cheap. You only need keep them in the area or spam more of it.
Actually, that's a funny idea. There's a new level 11 item that lets you inflict sleep 1/day no save as a reaction on an enemy you hit with an unarmed strike and that needs to breathe until end of turn. Hit, sleep, suffocate. No save, just die.
Actually, that's a funny idea. There's a new level 11 item that lets you inflict sleep 1/day no save as a reaction on an enemy you hit with an unarmed strike and that needs to breathe until end of turn. Hit, sleep, suffocate. No save, just die.Ally uses the wand, fighter Strides to the enemy caster, and then grapples to keep them in the area. Fight is pretty much over.So the same thing we do with the CRB's Silence spell?Silence never killed anyone. This potentially can. Otherwise, yep.
Also, unlike silence, any caster can use this wand since the spells appear on all tradition lists.
Follow up with something like hideous laughter, and suddenly the black cloud is a save or die scenario. Take out any breathing boss in a one-two punch. Oh, they passed their save? Hit 'em with HL again. It's low level and scrolls are cheap. You only need keep them in the area or spam more of it.
Ooh. And it also protects you from your own cloud. :)