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Ah, welcome to the fold. The fact is you are actually missing something. What seem like small debuffs/buffs, such as a +2, difficult terrain, or a reduced action, is actually very big. A +2 makes you that much closer to a crit. Difficult terrain can prevent an enemy from Stepping and evading that attack of opportunity from a fighter. Wasting an enemies action is glorious when you consider that could cost them an automatic grab or swallow whole.
The subtleties of the system can be easily missed without some familiarity. With more experience, you'll start to see that these spells only appear weak on the surface. You'll find plenty of people breaking down the math, but I recommend just playing a support caster and getting a feel for how it works.
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While I agree with the sentiment that a lot of control spells are much better in practice than they seem on paper, it's difficult to say exactly how much so without knowing what you are considering to be underpowered?
Do you mean Fear or do you mean Invisibility or Knock? Cause those are all very useful spells that don't immediately come across as useful for very different reasons.
Fear, for example, is considered by most to be a staple Level 1 spell, and the sort of spell you can keep in your back pocket long after most Level 1 spells have lost their luster.
Frightened 2 on a Fail or 1 on a Success is very, very good. Especially if you can do it right after the enemy's turn. An entire round of -2 to everything and another round of -1 to everything is fantastic and very powerful.
That's the equivalent of a +2 for each and every one of your martials to hit, as well as +2 to crit. That's up to a whole 20% of the die which have been moved in your favor. Then -2 for any of your party to get hit. And so on and so forth.
Is that game-changing? Well, yeah it can be. But usually not so much. But it's also a Level 1 spell.
If you're used to 5e, yeah the Pathfinder spells aren't going to feel as all-encompassing. You don't have anything that is going to immediately shut down an entire encounter (most of the time, although it will still happen occasionally). The spellcasters are much more in-line with the power of martials for the vast majority of the game.
In 5e, a well made Wizard (like the kind advocated by gamers like Treatmonk) are going to be overwhelmingly powerful throughout the entire run of a campaign. In PF2e, a Wizard and a Fighter will be equally as useful for something like 60% of all levels. But before they unlock level 3 spells, they're probably a bit under the par of Martials. Still can do very good things, mind you, but their ammunition for doing so will leave them feeling scrapping for spell slots.
Meanwhile, once you hit very high levels, 16 or higher, those casters will suddenly start feeling like the all-powerful God-Wizards they're meant to be. Some high level spells are insanely powerful, Utility, Control, Blasting, or whatever.
So lets look at some higher Level spells.
Slow feels like it does more in 5e, but if anything it's almost better in PF2. Yes, it doesn't have the penalty to AC and Reflex saves, but the 3-action economy is so powerful in PF2 that denying a creature access to their 3rd action is often crippling. Many monsters have very powerful 2 or 3 action abilities that you definitely want to avoid, and with Slow they can no longer use 3-action abilities at all and cannot use 2 action abilities while also maneuvering around the battlefield. And without a lot of Attacks of Opportunities, Pathfinder is a much more mobile game.
A Monster has a super deadly 2-action ability? Slow them, and have the martials all attack twice and then move back for their last action. Suddenly they can't do that at all.
This is so powerful that even when it only lasts one turn on a successful save it can completely turn the tide of an encounter if you make the most of it. If they fail and it lasts the full minute, it can basically win the encounter on its own. And once you can upcast it to 6th level and effect 10 creatures? No control mage should ever not have that on hand.
But personally I think that even better than Slow is Synesthesia. It's possibly my favorite spell of the game for its level. It gives three separate debuffs to a creature that can all be crippling in different scenarios.
25% chance to automatically fail all Concentrate actions. This is amazing against other spellcasters since any spell that has Verbal components is a Concentrate action.
25% change to miss anything you are attempting to target because of concealed. This means attacks, this means targeted spells. A spellcasting targeting you with a spell with Verbal components has to beat both of these checks.
And then the big one, Clumsy 3. That's -3 AC. -3 Reflex saves. -3 to ranged attacks, Acrobatics checks, and anything else that uses Dexterity.
Again, even an enemy that succeeds their save and is only effected for 1 round can be SOL if the party strategizes around it right, and one that fails and is effected for a whole minute is basically done.
Oh, and since neither Slow nor Synesthesia require concentration, you can totally effect a single enemy with both.
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When I started my first PF2 campaign, my character was a humble support-focused cleric. She invested in being good at Aiding, took mainly buff and healing spells, and was overall meant to be mostly really indirect. She is by far my favorite PC I've ever played, and she is extremely effective in combat.
The thing is, a +1 or -1 matters. It's not like PF1, or even like 5e. Every tiny bonus or penalty counts. It will come up. You will turn hits into misses and misses into hits. Speaking as someone who similarly really prefers support casters (I hate spells with saving throws that can just get instantly shut down by the enemy rolling well), PF2 may be one of my favorite systems for the role.
Here's one way to think about, say, guidance. Now, in PF1 and 5e, a +1 means a 5% improvement--a 5% chance for that +1 to turn a miss into a hit.
In PF2, though... let's say you're rolling a Will save, DC 15. Without guidance, you have a 5% chance of rolling a 14 (a failure), a 5% chance of rolling a 5 (a crit failure), and a 5% chance of rolling a 24 (a success).
But with guidance? Suddenly all three of those rolls are boosted a notch. The 14 turns into a 15 (a success). The 5 turns into a 6 (a normal failure). The 24 turns into 25 (a crit success!). It's not a 5% chance of changing the result, it's a 15% chance (or a 10% for attacks, since those don't have crit failures). And if it's a +2, it turns into a 20-30% chance of improving any result.
That's why guidance is really, really good.
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Best control/support spells:
Slow
Synesthesia
Heroism
Some summon spells if you can find a creature with a special ability that is useful
Wall spells
Heal
4th level invisibility
It depends. You have to vet the spells and think about how the game works. Even removing one action or providing a status penalty or bonus is very nice.
If you want auto-win spells like PF1, you're out of luck. That isn't happening in PF2. If you want spells to make winning easier, the above spells work very well.
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PF2 is not made for you to do things without groupmates whether a martial or a caster. The group is everything in PF2. Unless the DM specifically designs encounters for someone to shine individually, you are going to die if you are not working within your group dynamic.
The martial easy kills are a thing for the early levels, not so much at the later levels. If they get ganged up on, martials go down quick. They need those heals. Boss ACs get real high as well. Debuffs to lower them or slow actions, helps immensely.
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Something to remember about spells in PF2, especially with the 4 tiers of success, is that you use different spells in different situations.
So AoE spells might feel like their effects are tough to land, but if you are fighting 4 to 6 enemies, and you target a weak save, you might have a 20 to 25 percent chance of getting critical failures out of your enemies. I have seen this with a heightened slow against non zombie undead (who tend to have lower fort saves) and slowed 2 is a killer.
Calm emotions is another one that can flip a whole encounter by itself.
But if you are fighting 1 or 2 enemies, there is a good chance those enemies are higher level than you, and then you need to watch out for incapacitation, and potentially really high saves ( there will be some fights where a solo boss might have 40% chances to crit succeed. So even targeting weak saves means the probably will succeed more than 50 percent of the time and those crit effects are much less likely.
So casting in PF2 is very different than it was in 3.X versions of the game, where feats tended to make individual spells better. Now, almost everything about the spell is self contained and the casting game is about matching the right spell to the situation even more so than ever before.
The right spell also changes over time, so great spells for level 5 characters don’t necessarily stay great at level 10
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The other thing to keep in mind is that high level play is MUCH MUCH more balanced and playable than in PF1 and 5th Ed. Campaigns DO get to those higher levels much more often ( just look at Paizo's adventure paths and modules and you'll see this).
But yeah, you can NOT do Solo God Wizard in PF2. That is by design. Your spell caster will be a valued contributor to your group but no more than than the fighter, ranger etc.
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When I started my first PF2 campaign, my character was a humble support-focused cleric. She invested in being good at Aiding, took mainly buff and healing spells, and was overall meant to be mostly really indirect. She is by far my favorite PC I've ever played, and she is extremely effective in combat.
The thing is, a +1 or -1 matters. It's not like PF1, or even like 5e. Every tiny bonus or penalty counts. It will come up. You will turn hits into misses and misses into hits. Speaking as someone who similarly really prefers support casters (I hate spells with saving throws that can just get instantly shut down by the enemy rolling well), PF2 may be one of my favorite systems for the role.
Here's one way to think about, say, guidance. Now, in PF1 and 5e, a +1 means a 5% improvement--a 5% chance for that +1 to turn a miss into a hit.
In PF2, though... let's say you're rolling a Will save, DC 15. Without guidance, you have a 5% chance of rolling a 14 (a failure), a 5% chance of rolling a 5 (a crit failure), and a 5% chance of rolling a 24 (a success).
But with guidance? Suddenly all three of those rolls are boosted a notch. The 14 turns into a 15 (a success). The 5 turns into a 6 (a normal failure). The 24 turns into 25 (a crit success!). It's not a 5% chance of changing the result, it's a 15% chance (or a 10% for attacks, since those don't have crit failures). And if it's a +2, it turns into a 20-30% chance of improving any result.
That's why guidance is really, really good.
The critical system does make +1 more meaningful in PF2 compared to other d20-based games, but you're overstating it there.
If you can roll both a 5 and a 24, that means your bonus must be +4 and those are natural 1 and 20. Because of the natural 1 and 20 rule, the natural 1 will still be a critical failure with the +1 and the natural 20 is already a critical success without it.
A +1 bonus changes two possible results at most, not at least. You've actually picked the exact situation where it only changes one result--when you need an 11 or better to succeed. If we were starting with a +3 it would change a critical failure result (but not a success) and if we were starting with a +5 it would change a success result (but not a critical failure).
+2 has a 20-30% chance of improving the result? You must be using d30s. =) (Although come to think of it that would change the percentage... 6/30 = 20%... huh, no change!)
Again, 20% is the maximum not the minimum. That's still a lot! Especially since there will usually be more than one check.
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On to specific spells: These are all ones I used in 5e or PF1 that are disappointing by comparison, or at least seem so to me.
Okay, let's look at them and see whether they are good in PF2. I'm sidestepping whether they're better or worse in another game - I'm interested in whether they're good in PF2.
Web This is one of the first area shaping spells. Others are stronger, but this one appears at quite early level. In general, these kind of spells, as well as walls, will tend to be 3-action. I think it's to prevent it to be too easy to move and salt the earth behind you. Though with Haste of course you could. Anyway, it does a couple of things that combine strongly:
- the area is difficult terrain
- for each square you move through you have to save, and on even one failure your speed goes down by 10ft.
Combined, they make it pretty likely people will get stuck halfway through.
Hideous Laughter is actually really powerful in PF2, because of what it does on a Success: the victim can't use Reactions anymore. If you're fighting some boss monster three levels above you, you really want a spell to be good even when the enemy makes the save. And boss monsters very often have some kind of nasty reaction that's causing trouble. Look at a Lesser Death for example. The Lurking Death reaction is a super attack of opportunity with 60ft range that can completely shut down a spellcaster. With a level 2 spell you can take that ability away from a level 16 monster even if it succeeds at its save.
Hypnotic Pattern I don't like it much either, the fascinated effect is pretty weak. However, creatures inside it are Dazzled without a save, that's a 20% miss chance. It's not amazing but not hopeless.
Fly It lasts long enough for a combat. Maybe not as strong as it used to be, but it can still make the difference whether a fighter or barbarian can use their strong abilities or only chuck a backup ranged weapon. Or let you escape when the floor is lava. (Which is almost certain to happen at some point during a campaign.) It also doesn't need to be cast at high level, it's fine using a low level slot to use this as a backup plan.
Dimension Door is weaker, but in PF1 it was completely OP. Teleporting all the fighters and barbarians next to an enemy so they can surprise full attack was just about the highest damage dealing thing wizards could do.
Earthbind takes a creature down to the ground even on a successful save against the spell. After which it's the job of a martial to grab it so it can't get away again. In other news, you don't need a specialized feat tree anymore to be decent at grabbing.
Comprehend Language can now also be cast on your teammates instead of only on yourself. And can be heightened to let you speak the language. Or heightened to let your whole party speak the language.
Shrink used to be Reduce Person, but now it also works on non-humanoids. Relevant, because there's quite a few more of playable non-humanoid ancestries now. It was never particularly good as a debuff before because the enemies that would suffer the most would have a strong fortitude save. So other spells would just be better options. Now, it's a pure utility spell and I guess rather niche. Shrink Item is a different spell and always was before too.
Feather Fall Yeah it doesn't work on multiple creatures anymore, but since it's a reaction that would require everyone to fall at the same time to begin with, which is rare. Not being able to pre-cast this before a jump is a bit of a loss. On the other hand, deep falls can do a lot of damage and needing only a level 1 spell to survive them is pretty nice. Overall this isn't a spell you learn at level 1, it's something you start taking a few levels later when level 1 attack spells aren't that useful anymore anyways, so you have spare slots.
Stinking Cloud Okay, in PF1 this made people nauseated (= can only take move actions) for 5+ rounds on a failed save, which was absurdly powerful. Now, it does sickened and causes miss chance. But you can walk through. You could even walk in, strike, and walk out. So what is this good for? Forcing enemies away from a place. Archers in a tower? Smoke them out. Guards on a bridge? Force them back so you can cross. Then you're actually taking advantage that it's only ending your turn in it that's bad. And given the risk of critical failure effect, you'd be foolish to stay in. Slowed is hefty.
Suggestion It's an incapacitation spell which is a flag saying "used well, this could take someone out of the fight". In PF1 having this used against you as a player could be really annoying cuz it lasted an hour per caster level with no re-saves. So enemies might tell your character to basically leave the party "to get reinforcements" or something for long enough to miss the entire adventure. It was so extreme that in response, you'd probably get really nasty arguments about constitutes a "reasonable" suggestion. Now it only lasts a minute or so and the boundaries are better set. You'll get less pushback from the GM or players trying to weasel out of it because it's not OP anymore. But used well, you could still tell the lieutenant to leave the bossfight. ("Your boss isn't paying you enough for what happens if you have to be her meatshield. Stay out of this fight." could work) Mooks are dangerous enough that this is worth doing.
Wall of Force has hardness 30 and immunity to crits, which means it's really hard to brute force through. You can use this to separate an enemy party and basically make their entire backline powerless. Spellcasters and archers have a really hard time getting through it. Or cut off an escape route.
Bane/Bless you don't need to spend actions to sustain it. After it's 10-15 feet it's probably big enough. Bane, anyone in melee with the caster is certain to be in the area. Bless, if the caster is a melee happy war priest or bard, or your party does archery and spell attacks, that also makes it easy enough. Also, a +1/-1 remains just as powerful at higher levels, and you can just cast it from a level 1 slot. And there's no saving throw. All in all it's not a super powerful effect and bard song is certainly better, but that's their main class feature and this is just one of your lowest level spells.
Banishment always only worked on creatures that were away from their home plane. If you go to another plane you could emergency banish your party to flee. "Outsider" isn't actually a creature type anymore. Anyway, the spell is typical Incapacitation; brutal if you can make it stick, but probably better against the adds than against the boss. Since adds are pretty dangerous in PF2, that still makes it good. It's not that often that you can really take the second most dangerous enemy out of the fight on a single failed save.
Faerie Fire works against invisibility with no save and no chance of missing. It can turn "I don't even know which square to attack" into only 20% miss chance. Against already visible creatures you can remove that 20% miss chance regardless of why they have it. And all that for a mere level 2 spell slot. It's an emergency plan I wouldn't want to leave home without.
Levitate yeah okay, I'm not impressed either.
Mage Armor I don't use it much because I'd rather take armor proficiency somehow. But a +1 to AC matters more now than a +4 in last edition, because of crits. If I don't have another way to boost my AC I'll take this.
Grease another spell that doesn't need heightening. A level 1 spell will work just fine against level 10 enemies. Your spell DC is the same for all of your spells. In PF1 you'd have lower DCs for your lower level spells. Also new: the area is shapeable. You can put four squares in a line in a narrow corridor. An enemy that's trying to Step through that is taking two turns to get through. Not so weak actually. Used against a weapon, on a failure the enemy has a -2 to hit. Which is good value for a level 1 spell.
Message yeah this became a bit weaker, the line of sight/effect requirement is a downgrade. But I don't think I used this spell much anyway before, because it's still obvious that you're casting a spell so everyone knows you're doing secret stuff. If I actually need this, I use Telepathic Bond.
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Conclusion: yeah some spells are weaker. Sometimes because they were OP before. But many of these spells are still pretty good, when you see how they could be used.
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I'd recommend the spell substitution wizard. Yorue right that you won't want to prepare a lot of out of combat utility spells, but with that thesis you won't need to.
Things like Fly might take longer to kick in, but they still shut down tons of environmental challenges. I can't tell you how many scary lava bridges I've just Air Walked the whole party across instead of having to roll high pressure skill checks.
The following are top tier combat spells:
Calm Emotions-- the premier crowd control spell. Requires some minimal teamwork in that people need to not target the current non-hostiles, but if you can't figure out how to get your party to do that you should be playing with new people because your current communication dynamics suck. This one is so good you'll probably heighten it instead of using higher level crowd control quite often.
Hideous Laughter-- Denying a boss reactions for a while fight can be tremendous, and you do that on success. Attacks of opportunity are such a huge damage enhancer.
Roaring Applause -- Hideous Laughter for Divines, but can also be even better if your allylies have AoO.
Wall of Stone -- still great.
Slow -- Boss borker. Taking away an action on a success is still a solid use of a turn against an overpowered enemy, and if they fail they've truly become vulnerable.
Spiritual Anamnesis: Slow for Divines, with extra juice for undead, fiends, and other extra planar foes. Pretty common enemies there!
Synethesia: it's just good.
Phantasmal Calamity-- ok it's mostly a damaging spell but it also shuts down enemies on a critical failure. Use it on a crowd and someone will probably critically fail. Plus who doesn't love a psychic nuke?
Illusions-- not every player can think of how to use illusions in the moment, but they're incredibly powerful now because enemies have to waste actions on them to realize they are illusions. Very few offer saves otherwise.
Illusory Object-- You can easily turn this into stunned 2 on an enemy, and potentially a lot more with the right creativity.
Illusory Creature-- Super versatile. Use it proc weakness to draw aggro, make someone think they're talking to their dead father, use it as a long range mouth piece. You have so much flexibility here.
Lose the Path. A reaction that costs enemies actions is super good, and will keep level 1 spells relevant into the end game.
Summons -- Requires terrain and tactics to use, and won't be great in every fight, but they can put in work.
Heightened Fear is something I always look forward to as a support role at low levels. The multiple targets makes it a lot more consistently relevant and efficient compared to it's single target version
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To answer one question:
If you're being attacked by "10 somethings" basically ANY level-appropriate AoE Spell whatsoever should almost be enough to wipe out any of the goons in the area that fail their save with the remainder being significantly weakened so long as you don't roll badly on the damage dice.
Ten enemies versus a group of 3-5 PCs means that each of them is going to be at LEAST 2-3 levels lower than the characters in the party.
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Ten enemies versus a group of 3-5 PCs means that each of them is going to be at LEAST 2-3 levels lower than the characters in the party.
Either that or it is definitely time to start running.
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There are also battlefield control spells that don't look like it at first.
Divine Wrath for example. It's a burst that deals some damage, but more importantly, it causes Sickened and perhaps even Slowed.
An enemy who fails their save is Sickened 1 which is a good debuff. They could try to retch and re-save to get rid of it. Which might work or not. Either way you've stolen an action from them.
An enemy who fails critically is Sickened 2 and Slowed 1 as long as they're Sickened. So they only get two actions, have to-hit, saves and AC seriously compromised, and the only way to fix it is to burn those actions on a "maybe". Only by two more successful saves do they get back to normal, which takes two more actions.
Okay, but that takes a failure/critfail. Doesn't always happen. Except, if you open a door in a dungeon and you see four enemies and throw in this spell, odds are at least a couple of them do fail. Since it's not an Incapacitation spell, even the boss might do poorly.
One time we opened a door on two giants and a giant lich. And the lich critfailed. Well, a Slowed 1 caster is in pretty big trouble against a pushy fighter...
Also cute about this spell is, the crowd control aspects aren't really dependent on spell level. If you're say, level 13, you can still throw in the level 4 spell as a cheap way of debuffing all the enemies in a filler fight, and that'll probably go quite well.
(Yeah, the spell is alignment based. But in many campaigns, 80% of all enemies that you need to fight are evil. So that's not such a problem.)
Good damage is pretty sweet because fiends are weak to it, and weakness damage goes up in level even if your base damage doesn't change. A Balor will take an extra 20 damage on top of the base spell damage + debuffs. Pretty good for a 4th level slot.
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Earthbind takes a creature down to the ground even on a successful save against the spell. After which it's the job of a martial to grab it so it can't get away again. In other news, you don't need a specialized feat tree anymore to be decent at grabbing.
Our party has slain dragons this way. So amazing.
The only drawbacks to this spell are its short range and situational nature. At higher levels, when we killed a couple of dragons this way, surviving witnesses wizened up and kept their distance.
This one spell literally kept a hoard of dragons at bay.
Stinking Cloud Okay, in PF1 this made people nauseated (= can only take move actions) for 5+ rounds on a failed save, which was absurdly powerful. Now, it does sickened and causes miss chance. But you can walk through. You could even walk in, strike, and walk out. So what is this good for? Forcing enemies away from a place. Archers in a tower? Smoke them out. Guards on a bridge? Force them back so you can cross. Then you're actually taking advantage that it's only ending your turn in it that's bad. And given the risk of critical failure effect, you'd be foolish to stay in. Slowed is hefty.
Not to mention sickened is one of the best debuffs in the game since getting rid of it wastes actions and can be hard to do.
Illusions Not every player can think of how to use illusions in the moment, but they're incredibly powerful now because enemies have to waste actions on them to realize they are illusions. Very few offer saves otherwise.
I'm playing a champion with Sorcerer Dedication in Agents of Edgewatch (a campaign in which you play law enforcement officers). At 9th-level I could only cast a single 3rd-level illusion spell: illusory disguise.
Though it may not seem like it, this proved to be our ultimate control spell. With it, we would go into a criminal stronghold, take on the appearance of a specific mid-level gang lieutenant, then either boss around the low level thugs (ordering them to go home early for the day or to stash the evidence in a safe place known to us before a pending raid) or lure bosses into prepared areas. We even got access to a dangerous guardian monster once, and ended up turning it against its masters.
It was crazy. We picked off whole dungeons a few controlled enemies at a time this way, learned all sorts of valuable information long before we should have, and generally just owned the criminal street gangs with a single low level spell and some good Deception rolls.
Web
- for each square you move through you have to save, and on even one failure your speed goes down by 10ft.
I read the Web spell to be one save, not one save per square. Otherwise I agree with you. Web is a lot stronger with the extra size at level 4.
I read the Web spell to be one save, not one save per square. Otherwise I agree with you. Web is a lot stronger with the extra size at level 4.Web
- for each square you move through you have to save, and on even one failure your speed goes down by 10ft.
Yeah, if you're already in the web, it only checks when you start each move action (not each square, unless you're Stepping). If you're not in the web, it only checks when you enter it.
Definitely endorsing Hideous Laughter!
My goblin wizard in EC used it all throughout his career. Every Boss had zero Reactions, because those are usually really bad...lol.
Summons were extremely useful also. The damage was next to nothing (if hit), but the extra spells resource was really helpful as buffs in combat for our melee.
Plus, any Actions an enemy uses against a summons is a win!
I really enjoyed the wizard.
I had to read this a couple of times to realize you weren't denigrating hideous laughter and summon spells.
Definitely endorsing Hideous Laughter!
My goblin wizard in EC used it all throughout his career. Every Boss had zero Reactions, because those are usually really bad...lol.
My friends and I have been trounced in a couple boss encounters, after which it was said "if only we had hideous laughter to remove their reactions."
Summons were extremely useful also. The damage was next to nothing (if hit), but the extra spells resource was really helpful as buffs in combat for our melee.
Plus, any Actions an enemy uses against a summons is a win!
I really enjoyed the wizard.
Summons are definitely undervalued in this edition just because they are no longer fire and forget spells. However, if you use traditional team tactics in conjunction with them, they are potentially force multipliers.
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If you can't accept that this system balanced casters than I can only suggest home brew or playing a different system.
I don't say this at malice, elitism, contempt. It comes from a place of empathy.
This is a teamwork and tactical game that's supremely balanced and playable from 1-20.
Many spells that could just end encounters were heavily reigned in as a result.
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With the latest situation with WotC trying to pick the community's pocket I am done with them for good. I am looking for a new system and I would like it to be PF2e but when I bought the Core rule book when it first came out I was so disappointed with the Utility and control spells that I haven't played since.
This is a common complaint so forgive me if this appears to be a flippant reply, but:
5e is a power fantasy, whereas PF2e is a system where martial classes are not punished for not being casters.
IF you're looking for a system that's basically "Wizard casts spell, everybody dies" as a GM, then just fudge your rolls. If you're looking for it as a player, you're out of luck.
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I think people are maybe reading the OP in kind of bad faith.
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I am being honest with the OP myself. I've tried to find spells to do what he wants to do when I first came over to PF2 after playing PF1, 3E and 5E. They don't seem to exist unless you get a lucky failed save or critical fail, especially against higher level monsters.
With the incapacitation trait, the best you can get is a regular fail. Given they only regular fail on a 1 the vast majority of the time, your more often looking at a success casting a control spell against a higher level creature.
Against mobs of creatures you can cast something like calm emotions and then kill them piecemeal, but that is still teamwork as the martials will kill them piecemeal.
There are not a lot of spells that completely control a monster or group of monsters in PF2. The penalties and action reduction are the most powerful spells in the game within the group paradigm.
Any idea of a surefire control spell is not something I've seen work too often in PF2, basically never against boss monsters.
5E had some really brutal spells.
We all remember PF1 and 3E encounter ending control spells.
That doesn't exist in PF2. It's designed specifically to avoid these types of spells and effects in favor of debuffing, buffing, action reduction, and other spells that work best within a group.
The combats are often 3 to 4 rounds of fast and furious damage, so you may not even cast that many spells within that time. If you don't keep the martials healed, they can go down super quick to the massive damage monsters put out. PF2 is sort a fast and furious kill or be killed model that relies on combat healing, short term modifiers, and quick and bursty damage.
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I think the key to understanding Incapacitation effects is:
- How would players feel if a bunch of lower level enemies started spamming this on the party until someone fails a save?
- Incapacitation spells, properly heightened, can still take lieutenants and mooks out of the fight. Just not bosses.
The thing is, mooks are actually dangerous in PF2. If a mook just provides flanking for the boss, that means the boss starts critting a lot more. On the second and third attacks too.
Also, melee monsters tend to get fighter-like to hit bonuses, so they can still hit you even if they're a level or two weaker than you. They won't hit hard enough to instantly drop you, but it does add up.
Using incapacitation spells to get rid of a mook with only one turn of work by one character, is pretty good. Especially since their HP seems to race faster than martial damage-dealing.
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Yeah, if you're already in the web, it only checks when you start each move action (not each square, unless you're Stepping). If you're not in the web, it only checks when you enter it.I read the Web spell to be one save, not one save per square. Otherwise I agree with you. Web is a lot stronger with the extra size at level 4.Web
- for each square you move through you have to save, and on even one failure your speed goes down by 10ft.
Yeah you're correct. It's when starting a move action inside, or when entering. But that's also tricky:
- An enemy standing up from prone, also has to roll the save.
- If an enemy moves into the web and, due to the difficult terrain, doesn't make it through all the way with that move action, then they're still rolling another save.
Also, the combination with Grease is pretty nasty; with Web you can't Step and with Grease you don't want to go faster than Step.
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Save or die effects in 2e are essentially your highest leveled area effect blasts against weak mooks (which can clear rooms with a little luck), and your incapacitating spells against mooks. Don't expect either to work well against bosses (anything higher level than you).
If you want to maintain the power fantasy of previous editions rather than what many people describe here in this thread, then that's easy too. The GM just needs to run everything normally according to the rules, just have the party be a level or two higher than expected. Those couple of points extra make a HUGE difference with Pathfinder's tight math.
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I had to read this a couple of times to realize you weren't denigrating hideous laughter and summon spells.
Definitely endorsing Hideous Laughter!
My goblin wizard in EC used it all throughout his career. Every Boss had zero Reactions, because those are usually really bad...lol.
My friends and I have been trounced in a couple boss encounters, after which it was said "if only we had hideous laughter to remove their reactions."
Summons are definitely undervalued in this edition just because they are no longer fire and forget spells. However, if you use traditional team tactics in conjunction with them, they are potentially force multipliers.Summons were extremely useful also. The damage was next to nothing (if hit), but the extra spells resource was really helpful as buffs in combat for our melee.
Plus, any Actions an enemy uses against a summons is a win!
I really enjoyed the wizard.
As I am only on my 1st cup of coffee, I had to look up denigrating...lol!
I am on your side: PF2e is my favorite system since....PF1e. The play of the system rewards teamwork.
I have completed 2 APs (AoA, EC) and the combats were just as engaging at every level. The system rewards thoughtful consideration of Actions, as opposed to get into melee and full attack until it's dead.
Unfortunately, some in my home group still think that swinging at -10 is a good idea!
The most rewarding instance in combat is having your 3rd Action make a difference!
Back to the OP, there are many truly useful spells that will turn the tide in the party's favor, but, none that will win it alone.
But that is the point!
Contributor
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Even as an experienced player / GM who likes to run spell casters, I've found this thread educational in helping me reconsider some spells that I might have initially missed. Hideous Laughter has been amazing for my bard, especially when used in conjunction with the Diplomacy skill feat Bon Mot.
Bon Mot is a nice set up for will save spells. One action for a -2 penalty and you can follow it up with a 2 action Will Save spell. Very nice.
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There are some spells I look to take on any caster that can get them.
Hideous Laughter is one of them. Look through the Bestiary and note the monster reactions. There are a lot of really nasty reactions, and even on a successful save it shuts those down. If they actually fail the save that is a dramatic shift in the combat. Everyone notices.
I personally like Bane against large numbers of enemies. I don’t consider it a ‘boss’ spell — too likely that the major opponents will make their save. Think of it as a way to save on healing, if even a single hit or critical hit is shifted a degree of success that is a lot of healing saved.
I personally don’t like Bless (especially on a Bard) because it doesn’t stack with the Bard Inspire Courage. I may need to rethink this on Bards with Inspire Defense. I play with people that often play Bards, groups that don’t have a Bard likely have a different viewpoint.
Heal heightened to within one level of your max still is a good in combat spell. Anything that can prevent a character from going unconscious is a huge win. It does need to be used earlier than I felt was necessary with other games — if people are being knocked out you waited too long. Unconscious frequently costs you two actions — one to stand and another to grab the weapon you had in your hand.
Longstrider heightened to 2nd level and put into a wand is wonderful! Extra movement speed can make all the difference in some combats and this will last eight hours — good enough for most adventuring days.
Mending on a scroll can change the next battle when your sword and board fighter is having problems. It isn’t super — Craft skill could also fix that shield — but it is worth considering.
Dispel Magic at your highest level spell slot can change a combat and is generally useful enough to warrant a spell slot.
Haste can be amazing, especially when used on a class that feels a lot of action economy pressure like the Magus. Even with a martial, getting an extra action to stride can make a big difference. I would like to see it on a Flurry Ranger some time — I’m sure others have already.
Personally I do feel like they cut the power of spellcasters more than was needed, but as others have said the balance between the classes is a lot better than it was in previous incarnations of d20. If you want the characters to feel more powerful, I agree that shifting the difficult of encounters down one or two can achieve that.
As a GM, I remember one group remarking on how many critical hits they got in a couple of encounters. My reply was they just got to experience Boss Vision — how the typical monster boss feels in a fight. Even shifting the difficulty down one notch can make a huge difference.
Bon Mot is a nice set up for will save spells. One action for a -2 penalty and you can follow it up with a 2 action Will Save spell. Very nice.
Since you were talking about spells that feel like pf1 spells earlier, have you seen Maze in action? Bon Mot + Maze can turn dual boss encounters or boss + minion type encounters into non-threats if you are willing to expend 2 or 3 slots. On anything but a Crit success it "wastes" at least 4 enemy actions. (enemy can still buff itself or heal when it is in the maze, so it is not a complete waste of actions).
It's situational. One PC's actions may be worth a lot less than a boss monster's, after all, so it's a better trade. Plus, what if the boss isn't interested in chasing you? Moving only works if they've singled you out and need to be in melee.
By the level maze comes online most enemies have ranged attacks and/spells anyway.
First, comparing moving with Maze's effect is disingenious. Why cast Slow or Wall of Stone, when you can just move?
This is a quick overview of some classic enemy groups that are asociated with spellcasting based on buff spells they could cast while being affected by Maze. Level 15+ creatures only.
Not counting spells like Fly, low level resist spells or instnat healing effects. The first two for obvious reasons, the latter because you are not going to damage the creature you are going to Maze.
"Scary" are creatures with at least one spell (most of them just have 1 single cast) that they would gain something out of if they cast it when mazed. Most of them would cast it turn 1 anyway and almost all of these spells are either Disappearence or Regenerate, which are easy to deal with for a party of prepared level 15+ adventurers.
"Meh" are creatures that technically have buffs, but ones you shouldn't really care that much about most of the time.
"None" means either no spells or no useful spells for when the creature is mazed
I'll also note separately creatures that get a 2 for 2 trade in actions with the spell. I'll note Plane Shift as a 2 for 2, but being fair, most likely that creature cannot arrive at your exact destination if they do that.
Spellcasting ancient dragons (Which I want to remind you all, is an optional rule)
1 scary 3
meh 2
none 3
- Ancient Silver Dragon has Plane shift, so 2 actions for 2 actions
Fiends
Demon
scary 1
meh 1**
None 3
Daemon
Scary 0
Meh 1**
None 4
- Astradaemon has Plane Shift, so 2 actions for 2 actions
Devil
Scary 1
Meh 0
None 2
- Pit Fiend has a once per year Miracle that can be turned into a dangerous buff and a 2 for 2 with Dispel Magic (should work most of the time, but it is not garanteed), so scary as long as it has that once per year effect
**The Meh ones are 2nd level invisibility at will. Really, really meh.
Lich
Scary 1****
Meh
None 1
- Runecarved Lich is the only creature I've seen which could gain advantage by being Mazed. Beyond scary.
****Demilich has scary spells, but they are free actions, so it does not gain an advantage by being mazed.
Fey
Scary 10
Meh 5*****
None 11
- Defaced Naiad Queen has Dispel Magic, which can work sometimes when facing a party as a PL+1 miniboss. Counts as meh otherwise.
- Ankou Assassin can technically gain something by casting Silence on themselves if they have already casted their dangerous offensive spells.
- Wild Hunt Scout and Spirit Turtle have Plane Shift, so 2 for 2. They are also scary on their own
- Irovetti's Fetch and Fetch Behemoth have Plane Shift, but can only use it to go to the First world from a Maze.
- Tatterhead and Norn have both Plane Shift and Dispel Magic.
- Lots of level 21+ creatures here BTW. 1 or 2 could be considered beyond scary, like the Runescarved Lich, but these are campaign-ending bosses, Maze is not there for that.
*****Marrmora can cast Fire Shield effectively by 1 action in combat, so almost no benefit for them.
I think some of you severely overestimate how many creatures in the books have good buff spells. Also, I don't get what Ranged attacks have to do with Maze. A creature inside a maze cannot attack you with ranged attacks.
It's less relevant, but there are also a few funny combos you can pull off with maze. Like mazing the big enemy and having a hasted snarecrafter deploy three into squares it'll re-enter (reminder that stunning snare doesn't have incapacitation and will end their turn on re-entry).
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Plane shift, so 2 actions for 2 actions.
Mind that without special abilities, the Plane Shift spell actually has a cast time of 10 minutes now. This is actually commonly overlooked in the monsters' own descriptions. I forget which but at least one monster is said to drag a foe via plane shift to a hostile environment despite the impractically long cast time for combat.
Naturally this further reinforces the point that there are very few monsters who could render a Maze spell moot, much less beneficial to themselves.
Plane shift, so 2 actions for 2 actions.Mind that without special abilities, the Plane Shift spell actually has a cast time of 10 minutes now. This is actually commonly overlooked in the monsters' own descriptions. I forget which but at least one monster is said to drag a foe via plane shift to a hostile environment despite the impractically long cast time for combat.
Naturally this further reinforces the point that there are very few monsters who could render a Maze spell moot, much less beneficial to themselves.
Yep, which makes the mention of plane shift as a way out silly: maze is sustained so it's got a limit of 10 min, so if you started casting plane shift as soon as you can, it's done right after you get out of the maze... :P
My bad, thought it was 2 actions for some reason (never got access to it as a player).
Cannot edit now, so just ignore that part. The point still holds, though. Maze is amazing and monsters suck at buffing themselves mid-combat.
Yep, which makes the mention of plane shift as a way out silly: maze is sustained so it's got a limit of 10 min, so if you started casting plane shift as soon as you can, it's done right after you get out of the maze... :PPlane shift, so 2 actions for 2 actions.Mind that without special abilities, the Plane Shift spell actually has a cast time of 10 minutes now. This is actually commonly overlooked in the monsters' own descriptions. I forget which but at least one monster is said to drag a foe via plane shift to a hostile environment despite the impractically long cast time for combat.
Naturally this further reinforces the point that there are very few monsters who could render a Maze spell moot, much less beneficial to themselves.
Now I have lots of questions about how this interacts. If you are on the Material plane and get Mazed, if you start casting Plane Shift and Maze naturally ends, what happens? Should the spell fail or do you travel from the material plane... To the material plane?
Now I have lots of questions about how this interacts. If you are on the Material plane and get Mazed, if you start casting Plane Shift and Maze naturally ends, what happens? Should the spell fail or do you travel from the material plane... To the material plane?
You can always stop casting though it counts as disrupting it/losing it. If you continue to cast, any combat disrupts it, with the only way it goes off if the enemy allows it to continue without combat. As to what happens if it IS allowed to finish is... nothing as it can only move you through planes and you've already used a magic tuning fork created from material from the plane you want to go to.
Say one uses Bon Mot to lower the target’s perception then casts Maze on them. Can the target successfully retort to remove the penalty from Bon Mot when no one is there to hear them?
Say one uses Bon Mot to lower the target’s perception then casts Maze on them. Can the target successfully retort to remove the penalty from Bon Mot when no one is there to hear them?
Yes. Nothing about the retort requires the bon mot user: they could have teleported, died, disappeared, ect and it wouldn't matter.
Say one uses Bon Mot to lower the target’s perception then casts Maze on them. Can the target successfully retort to remove the penalty from Bon Mot when no one is there to hear them?Yes. Nothing about the retort requires the bon mot user: they could have teleported, died, disappeared, ect and it wouldn't matter.
That seems likely to be the case RAW as I wouldn’t allow someone to use Bon Mot then cover their ears saying “Nanananana” to avoid hearing a retort allowing the penalty to remain. However, in a similar vain, I wouldn’t feel proud of a retort I came up with while the person to whom it was intended wasn’t there to (as well as anyone else party to the comment) hear it. As this is a game, it makes sense in game terms to allow the retort without witnesses to work. It does feel far less gratifying, though.
Anyway, it was more of an attempt at a light-hearted challenge to the rules than an expectation for it to actually work within the game.
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IMO, the reason the retort works is you coming up with your sick burn to counter the bon mot: It may not be as satisficing without the user there, it's satisfying enough to throw off the minuses. People yell at inanimate objects and can be satisfying while doing so. So I can see why it makes sense working that way.