JD Shock's page

I tend to avoid spells that rely on my group mates cooperating too much. I personally love team work and synergy but I find it so irritating when my contribution is wasted when other players are less tactically minded. Also due to some people trying to control other players there is often a major over react to suggestions or attempts at teaching other players strategy I just avoid it now. Although I started with Basic and AD&D 1st ed most of my play experience as an adult is 5e.

I don't really look at high level. I've been in dozens of long campaigns and I don't think i have ever been past 16th level. Most of them end seem to end by 12-14ish if not earlier. So 3-10 is the only levels I pay much attention to since the 1st few levs tend to fly by so fast.

I do understand how the critical system makes pluses far more valuable in PF2, it's one of the more interesting differences about PF2. I like the mechanic.

I can see fear being worth slots, but only really for single tough fights that everyone is attacking one thing. If the group is attacked by 6 orcs and you use this on one, sure its going to make it easier for a martial to kill it but so would you attacking it yourself as a martial. This costs a spell slot it needs to be better than that. I find that a lot of the spells are only worth using on single big targets. There is very little in the way of AOE ecxept dmg. As satisfying as fire balling a dozen of anything is, 9 times out of 10 my group makes all get all mixed in with the enemy so its impossible to get a good number without cooking them too.

On to specific spells: These are all ones I used in 5e or PF1 that are disappointing by comparison, or at least seem so to me. I certainly expected there to be differences but I thought there would be more of a range of ups and downs, it seems to be mostly downs. I am admittedly looking at these spells compared to the other systems and that impacts my view but I do consider or at least try to factor in the different mechanics I am aware of. I'm not mentioning crit fails on most of these because i would never count on that, it's a bonus if you are lucky but not something I would factor for. I am leaving out spells like Slow because although it only effects 1 creature it doesn't give save every round so it just functions differently, its give and take.

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Web (3 action) its half the size and needs a crit success to do what the others versions do. 1min duration severely reducing prepared ambush effectiveness

hideous laughter needs crit to do the same primary effect

Hypnotic Pattern - tiny AOE, fascinated isn't useless but for a 3rd level slot. While I do think this spell was OP in 5e, this version doesnt seem worth the slot.

Fly 4th level half duration

Dimension Door - This one hurts as I have saved many foolish groupmates by pulling them out of a bad spot with this spell.

Earthbound 3rd level and only works 1 round

Comprehend Lang Lev2 - this spell is super niche and just not worth the slot/memorize in most cases even when its lev1. I wish GMs used langs more but few do.

Shrink* - enlarge is a dif spell, doing it on an item is a separate 3rd lv spell. *lasts 5 times as long but doesnt make up for downsides imo

Feather fall - only one target is lame. I know it has always been 1 before 5e but that change was absolutely need imo, its a pretty situational spell and if u cant save more than 1 person at a time its not worth the mem.

Stinking cloud - reduced effects across the board, it only works if the creatures ends its turn in the cloud, even if fail they can just walk out of the cloud. disappointing for a 3rd lev slot

suggestion 4th lev

Wall of force 6th lev

Bane/bless* - pros and cons but I think the 5'AOE makes this pretty weak unless you have time to extend it up before a fight starts. Otherwise it isn't going to affect much by the time the combat is over which typically last 3-5 rounds in my experience.

Banishment lev 5 only works on outsiders

Faerie fire - not worth the slots under most circumstances

Levitate 3rd lev

Mage armor - not useless but weaker than other visions even considering crit mechanics

Grease - stepping negates the spell. Slowing them down is good but with such a small AOE this is not going to be worth the slot in most circumstances.The item version seems really good especially for a single tough target, but I a lot of encounters are monsters that dont carry weapons.

Message - requires visual connection(at least to respond) which greatly reduces the value of the spell.
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I do recognize some spells are better. I used Guidance a lot with my cowardly cleric. It allowed him to hang in the back of the group panic crying and begging the gods to save them while still helping my party in combats.The following are all better in PF2 imo

see invis
Charm
color spray
Command
detect magic
summons seem more viable but I have not tried them.

After going through the specific spells and considering things others have said I think there seems to be less issue with single target "boss fights" but there does still seem to be something lacking with AoE. What do you all use when you get attacked by 10 whatevers?

With the latest situation with WotC trying to pick the community's pocket I am done with them for good. I am looking for a new system and I would like it to be PF2e but when I bought the Core rule book when it first came out I was so disappointed with the Utility and control spells that I haven't played since.

I have no interest in martial classes or damage dealers. I like roles that allow me to have options to take advantage of a given situation or buff/debuff in a support role. Unfortunately in PF2e most of these types of spells are pretty weak when compared to 1e or other systems. Many(such as web) are barely worth the actions let alone a spell slot when comparing how much a basic fighter can do with 2 actions and no limited resource.It's possible I am just not understanding something in the system since I have limited experience with it. I'm willing to listen to experience players who understand action economy and consider all the moving parts like resources used and comparing it to what you could be doing instead.

I know People will say things like "well if you use it in x situation", or "if your group does XYZ", or "if you get a crit". These are not helpful, if you need special situations for the spell to work then it isnt very good compared to a guy with a sword who can kill a foe in 1 or 2 shots without the special situations or expending limited resources. Working towards mediocrity is not my goal. I'm not looking to be the most powerful either, I just want balance, if I am using a limited resource then it makes sense that it should be better than one that is unlimited.

Is there any thing to be done for someone who likes playing control/utility? Like maybe 3rd party overhauls of the spells or something like that?

I am semi familiar with PF1e in that I have experience with DnD3.5 a bit but I don't know a lot about FP1 classes in any depth. I enjoy playing battlefield controller/utility casters. I like to have a lot of options and have a wide range of spell types to choose from I don't want to try and guess how many invisibilities/webs/walls/charms/suggestion/haste I might need for the day. Would an arcanist be good for this sort of play style? What other options might also be good? What are the trade offs?

This will be for an 1-17ish Adventure path

I cannot understand why anyone would ever take this horrible spell in place of pretty much any other spell. It is absolute garbage. It only does what it should if you crit and then for only a single round. How is this worth a second level slot? I wouldn't waste two actions casting this if it was a free cantrip let alone a 2nd level slot.

Am I missing something or did they just drop the ball on this spell?