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Supposing, of course, you need to underwater for more than an hour, an Aquatic Chair seems to me to be the most economical and effective strategy.
As Mobility Device, your land speed continues to be equal to your speed. As far as I can tell, there's no detriment to handedness especially true if you also acquire Impulse Control, a common and cheap upgrade.
Other items meant to facilitate underwater adventuring:
Bottled air (level 7, 320gp) Requires actions to breathe. Doesn't grant swim speed.
Potion of Swimming, Greater (level 11, 250gp) Lasts an hour. Doesn't grant water breathing.
Ring of Swimming (level 12, 1750gp) Swim speed 1/2 land speed. Doesn't grant water breathing.
Elemental Wayfinder, Water (level 10, 900gp) Uncommon. Doesn't grant swim speed.
Compared to: Amphibious Chair (level 9, 575gp). Common. 20ft land speed, unless yours is better. 20ft swim speed, unless yours is better. Unlimited water breathing (or air breathing if you normally breathe water).
I'm on board with Mobility Devices being 100% non-detrimental. But, to me, it sorta breaks verisimilitude when a wheel chair is by far and away the most effective means of underwater traversal.
There's very likely an angle to this that I'm missing, and I look forward to reading it ^_^
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Is a magical amphibious chair that much crazier than any other device meant to make you move faster underwater?
Beyond that - they're the product of a single store in Absalom with a specialty, medical-adjacent niche. Much in the same way if some artisan in Nidal found a way to make extra-special sunglasses with some benefit, they wouldn't instantly become the universal standard across, nor would a superior Alkenstari prosthetic immediately make everyone across the Inner Sea lop their hands off to get one. The word might not even be out, as the average adventurer is usually shopping places other than a mobility aid store for their provisions.
On a meta level, I think it's important to prioritize inclusivity over strict balance here. Imagine the Amphibious Chair is costed "appropriately," with the Ring of Swimming and the Water Wayfinder together coming out to ~2600gp. As there's no practical way for a standard wheelchair to navigate water, wheelchair-using characters would be completely hosed in any scenario that involves not only delving the ocean depths, but also crossing any river or risking being knocked into a lake until they have the assumed starting wealth of an 11th level character - over the halfway point of the game's progression!
That's beyond the range of almost all printed Pathfinder Society scenarios, and is kind of a huge kick in the drawers to disabled PCs who want to play without risking drowning and/or not being able to participate in play. All that said; if you want to have Morhen's innovation become more widely known, adapted for forms other than a wheelchair (or worse, have him shaken down by people who want his methods!), I doubt anyone would mind.
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From a verisimilitude perspective, I think so yes. Mostly because you still have both hands available to do stuff.
And that's fine but it's also a common item, so it's not exactly presented as an item from a specialty shop.
But even totally ignoring the fact that it's a mobility device: it's still a magic item that totally outclasses existing options to the point of making them obsolete. It's really this point I take issue with, not that it's a Mobility Device. Just that, to me, it seems like so clearly the best option for underwater adventuring as to obviate other item choices.
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On a meta level, I think it's important to prioritize inclusivity over strict balance here. Imagine the Amphibious Chair is costed "appropriately," with the Ring of Swimming and the Water Wayfinder together coming out to ~2600gp. As there's no practical way for a standard wheelchair to navigate water, wheelchair-using characters would be completely hosed in any scenario that involves not only delving the ocean depths, but also crossing any river or risking being knocked into a lake until they have the assumed starting wealth of an 11th level character - over the halfway point of the game's progression!
That's beyond the range of almost all printed Pathfinder Society scenarios, and is kind of a huge kick in the drawers to disabled PCs who want to play without risking drowning and/or not being able to participate in play. All that said; if you want to have Morhen's innovation become more widely known, adapted for forms other than a wheelchair (or worse, have him shaken down by people who want his methods!), I doubt anyone would mind.
I'd be totally fine with a dirt cheap "athletic wheel chair" that let you do all the skill actions that are based around your land speed with the chair: jumping, swimming, climbing, ect. (probably you can do that last one without ANY modifications since they come standard with adjustable seat belts). It IS a fantasy game, after all. Self-ramping wheelchair actually sounds dope.
But even with the amphibious chair, those problems you mentioned still exist. There ISN'T a way for mobility impared characters to readily overcome those kinds obstacles, up until the midlevels. They'd have to rely on cooporation from allies. Thankfully, the vast majority of groups would likely be willing to provide that kind of assistance.
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Purely from a design standpoint it's a little odd, considering how generally tight PF2 balance is, that it's so much clearly superior to other similar options.
I'm not sure how much I mind in practice, since underwater content with neither swim speeds nor water breathing can be tedious, but the power creep in this particular niche is very noticeable.
I also don't think it's correct to shrug it off as purely a concession for inclusivity either. Swim speeds and water breathing are not inclusivity features, they're supernatural enhancements above and beyond the capabilities of most PCs and potentially very valuable. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's a distinction worth making when also talking about items that are necessary to allow certain characters to function at all.
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For me, the basic devices for underwater adventures are:
- Scroll of Water Breathing (12GP): 1 hour water breathing for 5 creatures. Water Breathing is definitely the most important ability for underwater combat.
- See Touch Elixir (22GP): 10 minute swim speed (you mostly need a swim speed during combat, so the short duration is not that problematic).
Also, I don't see a player using a mobility device for optimization purposes. That's rude.
So I don't find the wheelchair problematic.
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Would you be on board with a mind-controlled flying weapon with runes that cost half the normal price, made for PCs that are missing an arm? Would you consider a non-impaired PC using such a weapon rude?
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I've heard of some slippery slopes before, but some mischievous hedge wizard's been casting Grease on this ledge...
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The amphibious chair does seem awfully potent comparing to other items to help with underwater adventuring.
Might as well call it a personal submersible, instead of a mobility device for inclusivity. The issue being that it doesn't just allow a person who is differently abled to adventure, it allows a person to adventure more effectively underwater than someone else and does so a better price than other options providing the same benefits.
I'm pretty sure it was first conceived to give mermaids the ability to move around on land, and the problematic value it has came from the symmetry they applied for water movement. I agree that it's doing too much for its price when everyone in the party would be likely to grab one for any underwater adventure.
I would like it more if the symmetry was broken, allowing fish people to move around on land (as the base rules kind of expect as a starting point) is WAY different from frankly trivializing underwater hazards which are a meant to be a challenge for mid-level adventurers.
If it had an oxygen tank that needed to be refilled for use underwater, but freely helped mix oxygen from the air into its water tank for fish-person-land-use, that may be all that's necessary.
To re-orient a bit:
Suppose I want to create a new magic item for my PCs that grants some underwater abilities, including water breathing and a swim speed. What price and level should it have? We're directed to look at existing items, and use those as our guide. But in this case it's not clear which items to look at.
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Given that mobility devices are, from what I understand, almost all created in-canon by a single business with some kind of insane philanthropic endless money glitch that can ship to anywhere in the world more or less on demand, the only justification I can envision for this is that these devices are created and sold at-cost and that the intent is to provide them for those in need without having to worry about getting any kind of profit on top of the service they're providing.
Perhaps for non-disabled PCs it would be best to assume that if they were to buy and use them for their own needs out of a desire for better mobility in place of their own working anatomy that they should pay 2x the price, which from my quick napkin math seems to be about correct based on the ongoing permanent benefits it provides.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong but having a Swim Speed lets you Swim without making Athletics checks and there are no physiology requirements for obtaining a swim speed. RAW if you have a swim speed regardless of your physiology you can swim. Is that a correct understanding of the rules?
For me, the basic devices for underwater adventures are:
- Scroll of Water Breathing (12GP): 1 hour water breathing for 5 creatures. Water Breathing is definitely the most important ability for underwater combat.
- See Touch Elixir (22GP): 10 minute swim speed (you mostly need a swim speed during combat, so the short duration is not that problematic).Also, I don't see a player using a mobility device for optimization purposes. That's rude.
So I don't find the wheelchair problematic.
Same. Unless I'm doing underwater adventures constantly, I wouldn't even consider the chair when consumables are much cheaper and easier to store.
If I did do underwater adventures constantly, I probably would condiser buying the chair; since at that point, it really is a mobility device my character needs!
Probably also worth noting that gatekeeping wheelchair use is also problematic in of itself, so idk if it's even an issue
Please correct me if I'm wrong but having a Swim Speed lets you Swim without making Athletics checks and there are no physiology requirements for obtaining a swim speed. RAW if you have a swim speed regardless of your physiology you can swim. Is that a correct understanding of the rules?
You can still be required to make swim checks for things like hazardous conditions or to cross turbulent water plus you can always opt to make checks if you want to crit fish.
Beyond that - they're the product of a single store in Absalom with a specialty, medical-adjacent niche.
Amphibious Chair is a common item plus "All Pathfinder Society agents also have access to all assistive items": so they are as niche as a longsword or a horse.
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Perhaps for non-disabled PCs it would be best to assume that if they were to buy and use them for their own needs out of a desire for better mobility in place of their own working anatomy that they should pay 2x the price, which from my quick napkin math seems to be about correct based on the ongoing permanent benefits it provides.
The crazy part is that this isn't even true.
2x the cost of the Amphibious Chair is 1,150gp, which is still cheaper than the ring of swimming. And the chair provides a faster swim speed. And the chair provides water breathing. Plus, one thing I forgot before: Amphibious Chair isn't invested, so it's an even better option.To re-orient a bit:
Suppose I want to create a new magic item for my PCs that grants some underwater abilities, including water breathing and a swim speed. What price and level should it have? We're directed to look at existing items, and use those as our guide. But in this case it's not clear which items to look at.
afaik, the magic item creation rules are a little less fleshed out than their 1e version, but I'll give it a shot:
Starting with Ring of Swimming as a baseline= 1,750gp
Add Elemental Wayfinder (water) for permanent water breathing= 900
=2650.
Now we have to account for the item providing a full swim speed, opposed to the ring's normal 50% of land speed. For that, I'd probably bump the item level by 3 or so. That's give me an estimated cost for just the swim speed to be about 5675.
5675+900=6575gp for my estimation of permanent swim speed plus water breathing.
Done another way: A level 4 water breathing lasts 24 hours. So you're effectively getting a 4th level spell for that effect, with would require a 7th level caster. A 1/day spell effect has a general item level +2 from that baseline caster level, so a 9th level item. Which checks out, that's one below the level of the Elemental Wayfinder, but doesn't have an additional activated effect.
As far as I know, there isn't just a "swim speed equal to land speed" spell. But a potion of swimming (greater) has that effect for an hour.
Considering a magic items that has the several times per day effect of potion of swimming (greater) would have a level of at least 15 (11 for the base potion and +4 for multiple uses). Which sorta tracks; the ring of swimming is a 12th level, but is half speed. So a theoretical ring of swimming (greater) might have an item level of 15.
Taking the average cost of items of levels 9 and 15 (since water breathing and swim speed are both what I consider to be secondary effects) totals: 6,537.5 (637.5gp + 5900gp). Probably drop that to 6,500 for round numbers.
Gotta say I'm pretty pleased at how close those numbers came out. ^_^
Small disclaimer: this still don't account for the potential effect of bundling. So while I think this is a good estimate for the cost of JUST the effects, getting the effect of 2 invested items in one item probably should bump the cost more. But afaik, there is no guidance for how MUCH more.
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One thing I want to point out as someone who has used wheelchairs before(This has mostly been for hospital stays) and lives with/works for people who need them. Wheelchairs can be unwieldy, difficult to store, and in fact can take awhile to get used to moving around in. It sure beats the alternative, and can be incredibly freeing to have access to one but it is also a completely different feeling. I also imagine even using something like the impulse control can take awhile to get used to.
Others may simply choose other methods because it lets them use the motor functions they maybe more used to it, which I think would be ideal in a combat scenario.
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Investing downtime to grow comfortable piloting the wheelchair seems like a pretty reasonable cost/compromise for characters without disabilities. I certainly wouldn't pilot a personal submarine without some practice, much less take it into a combat situation.
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One thing I want to point out as someone who has used wheelchairs before(This has mostly been for hospital stays) and lives with/works for people who need them. Wheelchairs can be unwieldy, difficult to store, and in fact can take awhile to get used to moving around in. It sure beats the alternative, and can be incredibly freeing to have access to one but it is also a completely different feeling. I also imagine even using something like the impulse control can take awhile to get used to.
Others may simply choose other methods because it lets them use the motor functions they maybe more used to it, which I think would be ideal in a combat scenario.
If that's the case shouldn't the rules be written to give a mechanical penalty for characters that haven't spent [insert length of downtime here] getting used to their adaptive devices? I get that these magical wheelchairs are explicitly designed to allow a specific demographic a power fantasy that doesn't involve them being magically healed, but that doesn't mean there has to be zero initial investment to use them.
I've heard of some slippery slopes before, but some mischievous hedge wizard's been casting Grease on this ledge...
It's a Wizard preparing for the most gnarly jump ever with his Wheel Chair.
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I've heard of some slippery slopes before, but some mischievous hedge wizard's been casting Grease on this ledge...It's a Wizard preparing for the most gnarly jump ever with his Wheel Chair.
The BMX Bandit, but with a Wheel Chair! "I'm going to go through that window using my wheelchair, spinning my wheels to throw mud in their faces and while they are distracted I'll pop a wheelie and knock their weapons out of their hands while you rescue the hostages." Other PC: "or you could cast a spell."
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Realistically, this is just the kind of strain that occurs when you decide that you want to have people with significant disabilities be able to take on roles as action heroes without actually having, say, a lack of legs hamper them in any meaningful way... while still including it in crunch effects just enough to give representation to all of the disabled people out there.
Oh, and it's an RPG without any sort of flaw system, so it's not possible to balance things that way.
I totally understand why they've made the decisions they have, and I'm not trying to state, imply, or suggest that any of these decisions were wrong. Paizo has put a lot of effort into going all-in on representation, and that's actually really cool. I honestly admire how well they've manages to make it both pervasive and low-key.
At the same time, in this particular case, there's some dissonance. In a messy three-way battle between simulationism, representation, and finely tuned game balance, the representation came out on top, and the remnant dissonance of that fight is what you see here. Sometimes there are costs. It is what it is. We can all see it. We may as well admit it.
Past that... what's the value in arguing over it further? The following things are clearly true:
- From a balance standpoint, the device in question is does what it does better than it should for the price point.
- If you're in PFS, and intend to involve yourself in aquatic adventures, then you should get yourself the correct wheelchair and encourage your fellow party members to do likewise.
- That last bit very nearly doesn't matter at all, because the thing's level 9, and (at least to my understanding) the number of folks running PFS at that level is very small. The number running PFS at the kind of level where you'd be willing to pony up 575 gp for a minor utility benefit like "underwater breathing and aquatic mobility" is even smaller.
- If you're playing anything other than PFS, then it's a matter of what your GM says. If they're bothered by it, then "it's a niche shop in Absalom" is plenty of reason to say no. If they're not bothered... well, it might break the very specific subsection of the magic item economy that's focused on long-term underwater viability for characters of level 12+, but....
- The chance that Paizo is going to actually errata this is... basically nil. Paizo doesn't do a lot of errata in general, and this particular errata is the sort that really isn't that big a deal, and also might upset folks. There's no win there for them. It's not going to happen.
Past that, I don't see that that's left beyond some vague semi-political positioning, and arguing with and getting upset about the vague, semi-political positioning of other folks. Where's the win in that?
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I'd love both an errata to the price of the Amphibious Chair and the introduction of a chair with the functionality that a chair-bound character can swim using the athletics skill. (It might be true that the Traveler's Chair already allows the functionality, if you consider "water" to be "common adventuring terrain". Which I suppose it might, but BOY would I have appreciated the devs specifically calling that out because there's a mighty difference between uneven terrain and liquid)
I think it'd be an ideal half-measure between "person in chair cannot function in water" and "person in chair has superior water mobility with no skills/feat investment".
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Yeah, I want people who are differently abled to included/represented and able to adventure as much as those who aren't, but this particular item goes a bit too far IMO and gives superhuman abilities that normal adventurers don't have, and does so for cheaper than other items.
And then people want to gatekeep using the device because your character isn't differently abled (which doesn't by default have a mechanical penalty).
I think in this case, perhaps increasing the price and or recognizing that this piece of gear would be desired by any adventurer going on extended under water adventures due to it's excellent functionality and price.
It definitely needs a price and level adjustment to be more in line with other items.
Insofar as able adventurers taking advantage of it? I'm fine with that, but we'll probably reflavor it as something cooler than a wheelchair (like magical wearable mermaid pants, for example).