| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Investigators do not need to use electric arc to stay functional. the class is just as functional as any other. Please tell me how it fails to function.
investigator are a struggling class many seems to use electric arc to stay functional
investigator dedication are amazing to most martial
Nooo they'll now spend twenty punctuation-deprived posts explaining how it has crap DPR and can't solo anything.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the basic issue with the Investigator is that it's difficult for some people to weigh "combat abilities" against "non-combat abilities". Pathfinder 2e kind of sequesters combat abilities into "class feats" and non-combat abilities into "skill feats" but the Investigator breaks that assumption.
But the right way to design a class called "the Investigator" is "whenever there's a thing that needs figuring out, that guy/gal/etc. is the one you want to have around."
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
At this point, just talk around them, folks. Off-topic negativity that just goes in circles is doing nothing for us here. “Don’t feed the troll” and all that.
I’m gonna continue wanting an Inquisitor and a Shaman, because my best options for either right now are clunky and wouldn’t come online satisfyingly for most of a levels 1-10 Adventure Path. Both have well-established places in Golarion, in cultures that excite me to imagine rolling PCs for.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have played an Investigator. Really fun class. Not a powerhouse damage dealer, but not any less reliable on damage than any other class. Lower die sizes than a fighter using Power Attack, but if the Fighter misses they waste two actions. If I roll low I waste one.
And I am an absolute master of non-combat challenges and plot progression.
I don't see anything non-functional about Investigator.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's two separate issues regarding a potential Large ancestry.
1. This idea inherently appeals to powergamers who want essentially free reach at little to no cost.
2. Being large in a society designed for medium sized bipeds can potentially be an issue.#1 you solve by making them medium, or making them large without free reach. If you want to give them reach you give them reach at a cost like Leshy's have. #2 is trickier, since for some people "A centaur is going to have a hard time in a library" is just sensical (the shelves are put close together in order to maximize storage space and they go all the way up to the ceiling so you need a ladder to get the ones at the top).
I think the only example we've had of an ancestry that's just going to have a hard time in certain settings or stories is the Azarketi, who you don't want to take to the desert. But we don't really need to handwave "Desert Azarketi find a way" because they just don't go to the desert if they can avoid it.
They should do a centaur ancestry absolutely, but I think it might require signposting about "the centaur is not a good choice for this campaign" from place to place. Thankfully, this is essentially the same consideration as "would a mounted character work here" since "you regularly can't use most of your class features" is as much of a dealbreaker as "you can't really navigate this space".
Though TTRPG players being the lateral problem solves that they are, I think we would end up with a lot of Centaur Druids who can just wild shape in and out of spaces, Centaur Summoners who have a unique use for Meld into Eidolon, and Centaur Monks with Water Step and Wall Run.
I sort of think they should do that with all Rare ancestries. Much like Rare spells like Anti Magic Field, they have high much higher potential for disruption than even uncommon options.
Sprites tiny size challenges a ton of basic assumptions about adventure design.
Goloma look so monstrous they are likely to be attacked.
Conrasu are super hard to wrap your head around, and there's numerous cases where we question things like "wait how do they eat?" Or "how does armor work for them?"
Automatons have better explanations for these questions, but I still find myself answering a lot of whiny questions about "well why does this disease affect me?"
Undead are in the same boat as automatons.
I think it was a mistake to lump shisk into the same category of accessibility as conrasu, basically. Many GMs are defaulting to "uncommon are fine, but no rare options."
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem is, Rarity is two things at once; it’s both “how likely are you to find this on Golarion?” and “How far from core rules expectations is this?”
Maybe the latter will be a separate ‘Complexity’ come PF3.
I think the basic issue with the Investigator is that it's difficult for some people to weigh "combat abilities" against "non-combat abilities". Pathfinder 2e kind of sequesters combat abilities into "class feats" and non-combat abilities into "skill feats" but the Investigator breaks that assumption.
But the right way to design a class called "the Investigator" is "whenever there's a thing that needs figuring out, that guy/gal/etc. is the one you want to have around."
I think there's room for an Investigator to wreck people like the RDJ version of Sherlock Holmes did and that the team missed the mark on making melee Investigators satisfying to play.
those scene are amazing
was thinking exactly that the minute start reading investigator
tried for hours to figure out how to make martial artist investigator work
one inch punch require expert strike which is a specific monk class feature so investigator can not take them raw
grievous blow seem to be the best with a d10 stance strength monk at the time
There's definitely room for an improvised weapon and unarmed strike build to be created for the Investigator.
I feel like Devise a Strategem does the RDJ thing? I guess it doesn't do a string of hits but I don't think "unleash four attacks with 100% accuracy" was ever going to be a realistic expectation.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm pretty sure "number of Strikes" is a game mechanical abstraction that does not actually describe how many times you hit the person in a cinematic context. Like the Monk's "Flurry of Blows" is 2 Strikes, but two is hardly a flurry and you're meant to imagine a quick series of strikes like you see in martial arts movies- it just does the damage of two strikes.
I feel like Devise a Strategem does the RDJ thing? I guess it doesn't do a string of hits but I don't think "unleash four attacks with 100% accuracy" was ever going to be a realistic expectation.
I feel like just hitting in melee doesn't really capture the feel of those scenes that well. There should probably be a feat path that allows the Investigator to add extra effects on attacks made while using DaS.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like Devise a Strategem does the RDJ thing? I guess it doesn't do a string of hits but I don't think "unleash four attacks with 100% accuracy" was ever going to be a realistic expectation.I feel like just hitting in melee doesn't really capture the feel of those scenes that well. There should probably be a feat path that allows the Investigator to add extra effects on attacks made while using DaS.
So like Shared Strategem, Didactic Strike, Athletic Strategist, Scalpel's Point, or Strategic Assessment?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
At this point, just talk around them, folks. Off-topic negativity that just goes in circles is doing nothing for us here. “Don’t feed the troll” and all that.
Indeed. The poster's name reminded me of a certain poster almost one year ago who had a leshy for their avatar.
Pretty damn toxic and one with lots of aliases / accounts. The boards were definitely better without them.
I would love to get support for a warrior that wields a really big weapon but like, has no feelings whatsoever about giants, or to what they can represent, or what they are.
I mean, for real! The two characters from fiction that have really big weapons and that first come to mind are Cloud and Guts, and I can't see either of them as barbarians. I’d love some support for a Giant Weapon Warrior in the form of an archetype or something, that doesn’t tie my character to the specific flavor of the barbarian.
I'm not even asking for a damage boost for wielding a big weapon, just flavorful abilities! Like... I dunno, maybe a feat that lets you raise your massive weapon defensively and use it as a shield, for example! Or maybe a feat that lets you raise your weapon in one turn, and down it in the next, attacking a three-square line in front of you. Stuf like that!
I also have another request, but this one may sound a little weirder: The Eldritch Knight!
Maybe there is no room for them anymore now with the Magus around, but I personally do like the Warpriest and Battle Oracle chassis, and I think it could pair pretty well with the arcane tradition. Could probably do a swell class archetype for the wizard or something.
Seriously: The Wizard that Punches is a pretty common trope, and while I absolutely love the Magus, anyone that visualizes their wizard as being able to get into the fray if needed but still, firmly, being a spellcaster, doesn’t have a lot of options.
So like Shared Strategem, Didactic Strike, Athletic Strategist, Scalpel's Point, or Strategic Assessment?I feel like Devise a Strategem does the RDJ thing? I guess it doesn't do a string of hits but I don't think "unleash four attacks with 100% accuracy" was ever going to be a realistic expectation.I feel like just hitting in melee doesn't really capture the feel of those scenes that well. There should probably be a feat path that allows the Investigator to add extra effects on attacks made while using DaS.
With the exception of Athletic Strategist all of those also work with ranged attacks. An Investigator needs more incentive than that to get into melee because they're significantly safer and have a fuller suite of options at range.
With the exception of Athletic Strategist all of those also work with ranged attacks. An Investigator needs more incentive than that to get into melee because they're significantly safer and have a fuller suite of options at range.So like Shared Strategem, Didactic Strike, Athletic Strategist, Scalpel's Point, or Strategic Assessment?I feel like Devise a Strategem does the RDJ thing? I guess it doesn't do a string of hits but I don't think "unleash four attacks with 100% accuracy" was ever going to be a realistic expectation.I feel like just hitting in melee doesn't really capture the feel of those scenes that well. There should probably be a feat path that allows the Investigator to add extra effects on attacks made while using DaS.
Gotcha. I think the best idea I've heard for a melee investigator is wielding a non-finesse attack option to use if you roll low on DaS. But there's a narrow range of unarmed builds that have both a finesse attack and a non-finesse attack. It was more meant for using a great sword and finesse fangs.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I want reasonable reload weapon support for anyone that isn't the gunslinger, i.e. reload feats. And by reasonable I mean as a level 1 class feat and/or level 2 archetype dedication feat. Currently, the first available one is Running Reload at level 4 (!) for the ranger or 6 via archetypes. For what is essentially basic functionality, that is absurd.
My group wants to do an all-rogues-party for a low-level homebrew adventure, so I'm strongly considering Mastermind (with some adjustments for balance) to cover the ranged problems of my friends. A crossbow would fit very well narratively, but I'm pretty much discouraged from using it for mechanical reasons. Ofc, I'm gonna do it anyway, but that is still rather annoying.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, please! Classes that need to have some form of decent reload weapon support (outside of gunslinger): Alchemist, Fighter, Inventor, Investigator, Magus, Rogue, and Swashbuckler!I want reasonable reload weapon support for anyone that isn't the gunslinger, i.e. reload feats. And by reasonable I mean as a level 1 class feat and/or level 2 archetype dedication feat. Currently, the first available one is Running Reload at level 4 (!) for the ranger or 6 via archetypes. For what is essentially basic functionality, that is absurd.
My group wants to do an all-rogues-party for a low-level homebrew adventure, so I'm strongly considering Mastermind (with some adjustments for balance) to cover the ranged problems of my friends. A crossbow would fit very well narratively, but I'm pretty much discouraged from using it for mechanical reasons. Ofc, I'm gonna do it anyway, but that is still rather annoying.
I think thaumaturge, ranger and some flavours of warpriest would like to be added to that list ^^. And I think giving everyone else the option via a dedication should be done as well.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Investigator needs more feats straight up, but one thing I hope for that might be against the playstyle too much is... Well a different playstyle. I love the flavour of the class, but if feels maybe too specialized in fighting a single foe. Even things like swashbuckler or rogue has options to fight lots of weenies, but when most of your shtick is hitting one single guy one time every turn, I could see the character being stale fast. Ive never played an investigator to be fair, but that's because every time I go to build one it just seems too shallow (in combat at least).
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The investigator does kind of feel weird in combat.
It feels a lot better if you're playing in a highly structured campaign (and therefore can benefit from Pursue a lot), but only getting your thing once per round can also feel a little restraining.
If you're worried about combat functionality, you can just go 16 strength, pick up a greatsword or d10 polearm and function surprising well, though I'm not sure having the best way to play the class to be to ignore its core mechanic is a very positive thing to say about it.
In general Investigators are kind of odd in how they engage with the system and I'm not entirely sure how healthy that design paradigm is for the game, but it is what it is.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Investigator needs more feats straight up, but one thing I hope for that might be against the playstyle too much is... Well a different playstyle. I love the flavour of the class, but if feels maybe too specialized in fighting a single foe. Even things like swashbuckler or rogue has options to fight lots of weenies, but when most of your shtick is hitting one single guy one time every turn, I could see the character being stale fast. Ive never played an investigator to be fair, but that's because every time I go to build one it just seems too shallow (in combat at least).
That doesn't bear out in my experience. The Investigator isn't particularly committed to a single enemy more than most classes, and significantly less than Rangers or Thaumaturges. In fact, it is usually better if you have multiple enemies so that if you don't roll well well on DaS you can just pick a new target, and you can pick a new enemy every round to DaS on.
The one exception is when you're fighting a lead (which hopefully you will pretty often) at which point you'll want to DaS as a free action on your lead. But you were probably going to focus fire on that thing until it was dead anyway, because focus fire is what you do in this game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Going on limb here, to further explain converting inquisitions as doctrines:
- Each inquisition had TWO powers back in P1E. In P2E, we have domains with TWO spells, so there could be an Inquisition Initiate feat and an Advanced Inquisition feat.
- Instead of martial feats, an inquisitor gets feats mimicking judgments.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Something I "need" but don't expect PF2 to ever do.
On the fly, dynamic weapon creation/manipulation as a core mechanic.
Played a handful of computer games that had characters like these. Conjure a bow, shoot an arrow, dash forward, summon a sword, stab someone. And just like, generally expecting to be good enough with all of these things.
The ability to change the kind of weapon you're wielding on the fly without a severe action cost and then wield those various weapons effectively, idk it's just a phenomenally cool conceptual space.
Might be able to fudge it with Kineticist depending on how their melee options look in the final game, I guess, but we'll see.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Classes: We need more options for the ones we have. CRB classes get a lot of love for obvious reasons, but it has been implied multiple times that the books up to Secrets of Magic (Maybe DA/GnG/RoE too? I forgot) are considered "Base", so it'd be great to just... get more. Honestly by this point even the CRB classes are lookin' kinda dusty, sans the new spells and weapons and items we keep getting.
Ancestries:
>Stheno are cuties and absolutely need to be a thing right-stat yesterday. Frankly the chassis is practically built-in already (feats notwithstanding) due to the Bestiary entry being level 1.
>Thriae would be interesting due to the dynamic of an "individual out-of-the-hive," and it'd be neat to see if they've come up with a way to make four arms balanced yet, haha.
>Honestly, more buds with non-bipedal body types would be kinda sick just in general. Taurs and such. The potential for motley crews is already hilariously high; what's the harm in some more weirdos joining the mix? (And I happen to be one of the weirdos that likes Medium-sized centaurs, so big and smol horses please).
>An innately Large ancestry would be an interesting experiment! I do think not giving them reach at level 1 is the most obvious place to start mechanically to alleviate some GM panic attacks. By this point I'm pretty sure we all can kinda get over the narrative hurdle of "but the city is inconvenient for large folk" since the same held true for Sprites being Tiny, and heck even smallfolk tend to have a hard time if they aren't in a society that tends to their needs. If we can accept the fact that out-of-place adventurers are going to have to deal with being out-of-place, then this is not really much different.
>Not sure if this is a reasonable want, but new Ancestries have the same issue as classes - their potential for new content is inherently less than CRB ancestries, since they have to justify their narrative space in a book's theme (especially Uncommon and Rare ones). So I'd like newer ancestries to come out with more options in general, that way they're sorta future-proofed.
>Thriae would be interesting due to the dynamic of an "individual out-of-the-hive," and it'd be neat to see if they've come up with a way to make four arms balanced yet, haha.
Thriaes only have 2 arms since P1E, as they are literally human/bee hybrids.
The "real issue" is that Thriaes are exclusively female, as they entrance male specimens of different ancestries for the Queen to breed with, keep them in the hive, and once males are too old, females devour them, all that to preserve the hive's secrets.
Technically speaking, male bees exist in the real world and in a hive, they are have the same roles as females (minus taking care of eggs), but it is still a matriarchal society. I could see male thriaes emerging and female thriaes seeing this as a miracle, because I doubt they would ostrisize males if they follow the common's bee mindset. Even better, having male thriaes would allow female thriaes to stop entrancing other humanoids for breeding, maybe making them more open to trades and settlement relationships.
On a sidenote, if thriaes are added as an ancestry, I could see heritages based on honey bees, bumblebees, wasps, hornets and yellowjackets.
Huh - I dunno where I was getting Thriae having 4 arms. Odd. Well, a four-armed ancestry would still be a neat challenge for the designers, and I do so love seeing the results of Paizo's experimentations so far.
As a burgeoning bee-keeper myself, I can confirm that you are right about the dimorphism of real life bees. Funnily enough, male bees do typically physically outsize their sisters, but they (again, typically) have no stingers and are usually there to perform mundane work such as hive building/maintenance and of course mating with the queen.
The possible diversity of Thriae heritages would be cool to see. Fun fact - wasps are more closely-related to ants than they are bees. So I could definitely see heritages that rival that of the Sprite with heritages based on different bee, wasp, and ant families.
Well, a four-armed ancestry would still be a neat challenge for the designers,
Or six armed.
I think the best idea I've heard for a melee investigator is wielding a non-finesse attack option to use if you roll low on DaS.
I'm confused. How would this be helpful.
Using a non-finesse non-agile weapon doesn't mean that you don't use the terrible roll you got from DaS. It just means that you don't get to use your INT modifier and you don't get your Strategic Strike bonus damage.
Or is this a new proposed rule that someone is suggesting?
Shoonies of Golarion...Give me 300 pages of Pugfolk goodnesss.
More seriously, I do feel that the less common ancestries do need more support. PF2E with its requirement of ancestry feats does make playing anything that isn't a major race kind of difficult.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm confused. How would this be helpful.
Using a non-finesse non-agile weapon doesn't mean that you don't use the terrible roll you got from DaS. It just means that you don't get to use your INT modifier and you don't get your Strategic Strike bonus damage.
Or is this a new proposed rule that someone is suggesting?
Not sure if this is what Captain Morgan means, but the idea behind a Strength investigator is that they will have a better athletics check and superior target switching, which provides them better alternatives to a low DaS roll.
I suspect drow are going to be in high demand with the influx of players from 5e so Paizo might want to get on that.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Going on limb here, to further explain converting inquisitions as doctrines:
- Each inquisition had TWO powers back in P1E. In P2E, we have domains with TWO spells, so there could be an Inquisition Initiate feat and an Advanced Inquisition feat.- Instead of martial feats, an inquisitor gets feats mimicking judgments.
The first problem with trying to imagine Inquisitions as doctrines is that doctrines are not the class path of the cleric class. Deities (which give bonus spells, access to feats and weapon proficiencies, and bonus skills) are your subclass. The second problem is that it doesn't change enough. An inquisitor would want everything the warpriest gets, and probably trade out some spell casting for better martial proficiencies, perhaps even all the way to bound casting.
A top to bottom revision of the cleric class's proficiencies, with almost everything being attached to which doctrine you choose (perhaps cloistered get full spellcasting, while warpiests get 2 slots per level in exchange for better focus cycling and some bonus damage with a favored weapon, and inquisitors get bound casting and full martial proficiencies) might work, but nothing short of that is getting us an inquisitor doctrine imo.
Much easier to just start from scratch. I confess though, having typed all that I'm now intrigued by the possibility of 10 doctrine levels instead of 6.
I'd still also want a divine martial class of course. There's a few narrative gaps I could see plugged with one, though a lot of the concepts I had were absorbed into the thaumaturge.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would like more thrown weapon support, especially a "thrown weapons expert" archetype that grants Quick Draw via the dedication. There really aren't a lot of feats that deal with such a playstyle, even for classes who support it at all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just started craving this yesterday; ooze stuff. I'd especially like rules for ooze companions of a few different stripes. Undead companions already showed us a path to making companions with innate abilities on the same level after all.
There's definitely been some clamoring for Occult eidolons other than Phantoms, with Oozes and other Aberrations being the most obvious pull; it's something I'd be glad to see! Book of the Dead, but for all our squamous friends and veiled masters, is something I'd eat up.
Doubly so once the Synthesist Summoner comes into 2e - I want to be a friendly aberrant horror!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Something I "need" but don't expect PF2 to ever do.
On the fly, dynamic weapon creation/manipulation as a core mechanic.
Played a handful of computer games that had characters like these. Conjure a bow, shoot an arrow, dash forward, summon a sword, stab someone. And just like, generally expecting to be good enough with all of these things.
The ability to change the kind of weapon you're wielding on the fly without a severe action cost and then wield those various weapons effectively, idk it's just a phenomenally cool conceptual space.
In PF1E, we had the Gloomblade archetype for Fighter that did this and I absolutely would want that to come back to us in some form.
I just loved the idea of being able to make an Expy of Thor: Ragnarok's Hela and conjure longswords and javelins that I could hurl at my enemies.
I'm doubtful that if this archetype came back that it would be exactly the same but it canonically exists in-universe so there's a chance we can get spontaneous generation of weapons again...
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
At the edition's outset, I daydreamed of three very niche PCs: an Android Inquisitor of Casandalee, a Lashunta Psychic, and a Wyrwood Shaman. Each step that's gotten me closer to each of those is a massive dopamine explosion.
I also really, really wanted Gnolls, and have been overjoyed on that front all edition long!
Chronomancer: someone with time based magic who can call weapons and armor from the time stream for limited periods. Make him a mid-range caster with decent skills who can alter time to make a hit a miss, or a miss a hit, or alter a saving throw "by a few seconds". As for conjuring items, think of it as a "need it on the fly" where he "borrows" something from the time stream for a few moments (level based duration?), maybe even more powerful items as he progresses (magical and specific material?), and time-related spell abilities such as haste, slow, timestop, etc, that affect only him, and can affect others at higher levels, but as focus spells instead of full magic. One ability I can think of would be to be able to call duplicates of himself like he was pulling himself out of the time stream from different minutes. Another idea would be a sort of "do over" where he might rewind an instance (say a combat round?) as if it didn't happen, but yeah, this could lead to issues of redoing rounds that don't go in his favor unless limits are put in place. Still, it would be interesting to see what Paizo could do with this
Chronomancer: someone with time based magic who can call weapons and armor from the time stream for limited periods. Make him a mid-range caster with decent skills who can alter time to make a hit a miss, or a miss a hit, or alter a saving throw "by a few seconds". As for conjuring items, think of it as a "need it on the fly" where he "borrows" something from the time stream for a few moments (level based duration?), maybe even more powerful items as he progresses (magical and specific material?), and time-related spell abilities such as haste, slow, timestop, etc, that affect only him, and can affect others at higher levels, but as focus spells instead of full magic. One ability I can think of would be to be able to call duplicates of himself like he was pulling himself out of the time stream from different minutes. Another idea would be a sort of "do over" where he might rewind an instance (say a combat round?) as if it didn't happen, but yeah, this could lead to issues of redoing rounds that don't go in his favor unless limits are put in place. Still, it would be interesting to see what Paizo could do with this