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Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Gortle wrote:
snip

I definitely agree with this. I think PF2 needs to really stretch a bit in terms of being a "universal" setting and that would make it really better.

I also agree that GURPS is a decent idea mine but a lousy system, so I don't want PF2e to go that route.


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Castilliano wrote:
A good rule of thumb is to consider how players would feel having those same powers used against themselves. After all, levels represent power as much for NPCs as for PCs.

You shouldn't feel bad for using a class's features against the PCs as a GM.

Are we gonna nerf NPC spellcasters because they can use the same spells as PCs?

Quote:

I, and I'll reckon a majority of players, would loathe autofail on a spell effect because some flanking minion Magus cast True Strike. That's even if one excludes spells with Incapacitation.

Ditto for the 1/day, which favors NPCs with greatswords and no second combat to worry about.

If those are high-levels feats, this would balance it out, and your Magus isn't always going to have True Strike. Point is that if it stabs you with its spear, no way you can "dodge" the spell a millisecond after.

Quote:
Which is to say, be careful what you wish for.

Again, if these abilities are high-level feats, there shouldn't be a problem.


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Some sort of dex-based combat maneuvers, or some way of getting maneuver-style effects off of dex. I like the monk. I like the dex-monk. I don't *want* to play a str-monk... but if you ditch the strength, then your ability to do interesting things in fights goes way down. Like... I've done Aikido. (Not a lot, but enough) I know that it's possible to put someone on the floor without exerting a lot of force. Maybe give it a feat cost or something? Like, give us a skill feat for athletics that would let us trip with dex - just trip. It woudl handle the balance issue by the simple fact that we'd have to invest in athletics to keep it current, but the fact that str wasn't a great stat for us would mean that we weren't getting as much out of it.

In an associated vein, I wish that we had more monk stances that would allow bonus riders on FoB. Like, Stumbling Stance is great and all... but I am simply constitutionally incapable of playing a character who has "good at lying" as one of their big schticks, and thus for all practical purposes it is closed to me.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Some sort of dex-based combat maneuvers, or some way of getting maneuver-style effects off of dex.

Given that the devs went out of their way to reverse course and specifically torpedo this, I don't see it happening.

Has left dex based characters (especially dex based melee) feeling kind of stripped down a bit. It's weird because Dex is objectively an amazing stat but from my experience and the experience of players in my games, dex based melee is profoundly unsatisfying, especially at low levels and generally avoid it unless they have something that pushes them specifically toward that playstyle.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Squiggit wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Some sort of dex-based combat maneuvers, or some way of getting maneuver-style effects off of dex.

Given that the devs went out of their way to reverse course and specifically torpedo this, I don't see it happening.

Has left dex based characters (especially dex based melee) feeling kind of stripped down a bit. It's weird because Dex is objectively an amazing stat but from my experience and the experience of players in my games, dex based melee is profoundly unsatisfying, especially at low levels and generally avoid it unless they have something that pushes them specifically toward that playstyle.

Here is the thing about dex. It has never been designed (in 2e ar least) as a melee stat. Unless your class very specifically supports it as such. (Rogue, Swashbuckler)

It does allow you to make a very versatile character, good at range, stealth, thievery, great reflex saves, and ok at melee.

But lots of people just want a dex melee character and don’t care about that stuff. That is fine, but that is all budgeted into dex so it isn’t going to work out.

I advise new players who want a pure melee but want dex for some class fantasy to just make a str martial and flavor it as dex hah.


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I feel like there should be a way for someone using dexterity to render an opponent prone. It just can't be a trip or an athletics check because PF2 absolutely does not do stat substitutions.

Though you could structure this like the Chirugeon research field, something like "As long as your proficiency rank in Acrobatics is trained or better, you can attempt an Acrobatics check instead of an Athletics check for the trip or disarm actions." That doesn't seem totally unreasonable to give someone.

It's still not as good as Athletics (because Athletics lets you Grapple, Shove, Climb, and Swim as well) but it does fulfill some of the fantasy for the Aikido/Elegant Judo approach for getting people on the ground.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

sidenote, there are so many monsters from 1e I still want in 2e like Kasthezvi x'D I wonder if bestiary wishlist should make a return

Silver Crusade

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like there should be a way for someone using dexterity to render an opponent prone. It just can't be a trip or an athletics check because PF2 absolutely does not do stat substitutions.

Though you could structure this like the Chirugeon research field, something like "As long as your proficiency rank in Acrobatics is trained or better, you can attempt an Acrobatics check instead of an Athletics check for the trip or disarm actions." That doesn't seem totally unreasonable to give someone.

It's still not as good as Athletics (because Athletics lets you Grapple, Shove, Climb, and Swim as well) but it does fulfill some of the fantasy for the Aikido/Elegant Judo approach for getting people on the ground.

You could definitely argue that something like a leg sweep is a dexterity based maneuver and has very little to do with strength. They could add a feat called Leg Sweep (if there isn't already one, AoN is down, can't search) that has a requirement of 16 Dex to take and make it a two-action flourish that incorporates an unarmed strike followed up by an acrobatics attempt to trip.


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A workable anathema for Superstitious Barbarians


Gortle wrote:
A workable anathema for Superstitious Barbarians

I'm not even sure how you'd properly do that, though.

Like, the idea of a magic-hating barbarian is somewhat iconic, and the idea of giving them various ways to get bonuses against casters is cool and all, but given how fundamental magic is to the functioning of the average party, it's hard to come up with something that makes sense, that isn't crippling, and that also isn't deeply hypocritical.

I feel like you might be able to do some interesting stuff if you made the story of it a bit more complex and nuanced, but it's an instinct. It's not supposed to have to be complex and nuanced.

I suppose that the way out might be to take away the "magic-hating" part entirely. Instead, make it an instinct about considering magic to be a fundamentally threatening and dangerous force, that calls for particular attention and preparation. That preparation comes in the form of various superstitious activities (often tied into feats) that, since you're a barbarian channelign primal magic, actually works.

So your anathema would be, basically, missing any of your superstitious preparations (they're easy enough to do, though they may make you appear odd) and possibly something about not taking magical threats seriously... so if you have some low-tier scrub sorcerer make vague threatening noises with their one combat cantrip, your anathema demands that you have No Chill about that and immediately jump to 100% intensity.

Something like that might work, I guess.


An archetype that makes being a mount for another PC a viable combat strategy.


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Cross posting:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I'd love to see a book like the old Faiths and Avatars for Forgotten Realms where each deity had unique specialty priests for PF2 priests and champions. I know that will likely never happen.

Even more so than alignment, Champion powers don't feel like they fit many gods. They are way too generic in their powers. I'd love to see more variety of Champions that fit better with a deity's theme.


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I'll gladly clamor for any kind of Divine book the team wants to give us. The Reddit AMA gives me hope.


Gortle wrote:

Cross posting:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I'd love to see a book like the old Faiths and Avatars for Forgotten Realms where each deity had unique specialty priests for PF2 priests and champions. I know that will likely never happen.

Even more so than alignment, Champion powers don't feel like they fit many gods. They are way too generic in their powers. I'd love to see more variety of Champions that fit better with a deity's theme.

Huh. A format for "Champion of (deity)" would be one way to fit in some neutral Champions, at least.


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A way to play a character who dumps both STR and DEX and doesn't suck.


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I would love Words of Power returned via the variable action system letting me play build-a-bear spellshop like Ars Magica 5th, using range words, effect words, meta effect words, and wackiness like that to weave a custom made thundery-fireball or acidic shocking grasp, conal healing and sniper rays of harm; I wanna go weird with my spells, and making my own on the fly is the best way to do it!


nick1wasd wrote:
I would love Words of Power returned via the variable action system letting me play build-a-bear spellshop like Ars Magica 5th, using range words, effect words, meta effect words, and wackiness like that to weave a custom made thundery-fireball or acidic shocking grasp, conal healing and sniper rays of harm; I wanna go weird with my spells, and making my own on the fly is the best way to do it!

To my understanding, Words of Power was pretty much the exemplar of "this didn't actually work out well." Was it not so?

I'm also thinking that that level of free-form would be especially hard to fit into any sort of balance.

Dark Archive

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I know its been said they aren't going to ever do a book like it again, or at least not a long time, but a big book of character options to expand on themes would be amazing.

Just take all the smaller or not overly supported aspects of classes that don't go anywhere else, and expand the hell out of them.

Class archetypes for every class, theme expansions feats that allow more niche build options, class-skill relationship feats, etc etc.

Just a 500 page tome of options to expand out playstyles.


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I need Rage of Elements to finish coming out so that I can see what the PF2 Kineticist is, rather than just what I imagine it to be.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
nick1wasd wrote:
I would love Words of Power returned via the variable action system letting me play build-a-bear spellshop like Ars Magica 5th, using range words, effect words, meta effect words, and wackiness like that to weave a custom made thundery-fireball or acidic shocking grasp, conal healing and sniper rays of harm; I wanna go weird with my spells, and making my own on the fly is the best way to do it!

To my understanding, Words of Power was pretty much the exemplar of "this didn't actually work out well." Was it not so?

I'm also thinking that that level of free-form would be especially hard to fit into any sort of balance.

Part of the reason it fell flat was because there where dozens of "this thing, but again, and with more dice!" like, the fire effects (there were five, a cantrip, 1st level, 3d level, 5th level, 7th level, and 9th level.) This would be remedied by the heightening system saying "every extra spell level, add X extra dice/make the die type go up" making the amount of redundancy go down, and thus letting more flexible words be made. It was also wonk because of multi words spells like "touch attack with fire AND acid!" that had a very strange method of scaling the spell slot they ate to do so. I think if Paizo (or a 3pp) put their minds to reducing clutter, it wouldn't be that hard to balance given how dice amounts scale linearly across all spell levels now (with seldom few outliers)


Ah. If you'd be open to 3pp, then I think it's the sort of thing that could do fairly well there. I can see what you're saying about ways to simplify, but I still feel like "massive spellcasting flexibility" is a bit too gonzo for mainline.

In essence, my grok is that you could produce a version of this that was close enough to the standard balance points that you could play it in a game where everyone had agreed to include it, and everything would work out. On the flip side, though, I think it would be very hard to produce a version of this that didn't stretch the edges of the permissible in some way without effectively sucking it dry of all of its essence. So... as a product for someone to design and produce and sell, I could see it working out. For a product that is to be canonized as part of the core system that everything else is balancing against, though, I don't think it's workable.

I mean, even then you'd have the issue of trying to make money with the jacket blurb of "It's Words of Power. No! I swear it's good this time!" and that could be a bit of a trick to pull off, but I could see it actually being a good and worthwhile product.


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Like Words of Power clearly took inspiration from Ars Magica, which has a Magic system that is really neat and is fun to use... but it's also not something that you can just slot in your game in a book 4 years after the core rules.

The only time I saw people wanting to really use Words of Power in PF1 was for abuses (like the reincarnated druid being able to cast restoration without diamond dust)


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This is probably a ridiculously unlikely proposition, but a revival of the "<X> Monsters Revisited" line would warm my heart like few other imaginable possibilities.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As a lore fanatic, I really want to see more Archetypes carrying over from the world of Golarion, like Gray Gardener archetype was recently. Here's the list I can think of:

Tax Master (Inquisitor of Abadar)
Justicar (Paladin of Abadar)
Rondolero Duelist (Taldan swashbuckler)
Chellish opera singer (Chelaxian bard)
Dawnflower anchorite (Cleric of Sarenrae with ranger flavor)
Balanced Scale (Investigator of Abadar)
Sleepless Detective (Investigator with blood tracking abilities)
Harrower (Harrow-deck flavored wizard)


A viable reason to use a wheelchair...

In a world where magic, alchemy and even clockwork technology can fix you back up, I... don't see much of a use to invest in a wheelchair as a PC. I can see it a temporary solution and mean of traversal, but with all that said, you're literally one spell or prosthetic away from walking again.

I kinda wish there would be something to do with a wheelchair after you can walk again. Did anyone turn theirs into a small chariot with an motor or animated axle or such?

I mean, what prevents me from playing an inventor who can walk, but decides to turn a wheelchair into a "poor man's speedster"... and fakes their disability to get stuff :P ?

I don't have anything against disable PCs (far from it), but this seems so niche, exclusive and situational that those items could use a more mainstream function.


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JiCi wrote:

A viable reason to use a wheelchair...

In a world where magic, alchemy and even clockwork technology can fix you back up, I... don't see much of a use to invest in a wheelchair as a PC. I can see it a temporary solution and mean of traversal, but with all that said, you're literally one spell or prosthetic away from walking again.

I kinda wish there would be something to do with a wheelchair after you can walk again. Did anyone turn theirs into a small chariot with an motor or animated axle or such?

I mean, what prevents me from playing an inventor who can walk, but decides to turn a wheelchair into a "poor man's speedster"... and fakes their disability to get stuff :P ?

I don't have anything against disable PCs (far from it), but this seems so niche, exclusive and situational that those items could use a more mainstream function.

Wanting your character to be in a wheelchair is viable enough. Adventurer George in a spider chair isn't beyond the pale in a world with elves and dragons.


WWHsmackdown wrote:
JiCi wrote:

A viable reason to use a wheelchair...

In a world where magic, alchemy and even clockwork technology can fix you back up, I... don't see much of a use to invest in a wheelchair as a PC. I can see it a temporary solution and mean of traversal, but with all that said, you're literally one spell or prosthetic away from walking again.

I kinda wish there would be something to do with a wheelchair after you can walk again. Did anyone turn theirs into a small chariot with an motor or animated axle or such?

I mean, what prevents me from playing an inventor who can walk, but decides to turn a wheelchair into a "poor man's speedster"... and fakes their disability to get stuff :P ?

I don't have anything against disable PCs (far from it), but this seems so niche, exclusive and situational that those items could use a more mainstream function.

Wanting your character to be in a wheelchair is viable enough. Adventurer George in a spider chair isn't beyond the pale in a world with elves and dragons

I was thinking more like a foldable bicycle or scooter.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ephialtes kyton and gigas are definitely on my "please return as monsters" list :'D


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not sure if this has been said yet but an option I think would be fun (though maybe too op/hard to write) would be a feat to be able to switch your eidolon out for another. It would have to be the same tradition because of spells but it would fulfill that fantasy of having multiple creatures on hand for various situations. Say you're an primal summoner, if you have a problem to solve with brute force you bring out your beast eidolon, you need some more utility or trixiness you bring out your fae eidolon, etc.


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mythic & 26-30 monsters. it's sorely needed in the system


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I'll definitely echo the need for significantly expanding on existing material, but the other thing I really want is an improvement to specific magic items, particularly weapons.

These should be the highlight of the looting process, being cool items with a story basically printed on them. Instead, they are close to the opposite. Simply due to the fact how bad they are or atleast become within a level or two. The number of exceptions is tiny and almost exclusively high-level. Not everything can be the Rowan Rifle, but there is a lot of room left in the balance tank.

Once that improvement is done, I would really love to see Sayre's Arcadia book. Because I love the concept of starmetal guns, but I don't want a second instance of beast guns. They are an amazing idea and the lore is great, but there is pretty much only one good one and that becomes obsolete by like level 8.


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It wouldn’t just be Mike Sayre - Luis Loza and Adam Daigle would presumably be all over such a thing, and I know Paizo’s had a number of Native folks join up as staff and freelancers.

There’s nothing Paizo could make that I’d want more :>


keftiu wrote:

It wouldn’t just be Mike Sayre - Luis Loza and Adam Daigle would presumably be all over such a thing, and I know Paizo’s had a number of Native folks join up as staff and freelancers.

There’s nothing Paizo could make that I’d want more :>

Fair, he's just been front and centre on that topic after GnG that Sayre is the first person I was thinking of. And ofc, he's the one pushing guns and I really like the gunslinger :D

Wayfinders Contributor

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Absolutely Selfish Wish:
I would love even more gnome feats, but I know it's silly to ask since gnomes already have such a well-developed ancestry. Still, they're my favorite ancestry and I am running out of options I've already tried for gnome characters. I might have to *gasp* repeat a gnome option!

But before that, I would like to see some of the less developed ancestries get more cool options. Shoonies could use more love, and I would also like to see more feats for the mwangi and impossible lands ancestries.

Hmm


With the change to alternative ability scores, I think we need more gnome stuff to support all the swole gnomes that are going to become more common.

No reason for your flickmace fighter to not actually be a gnome anymore!

Wayfinders Contributor

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I was going to make a gnome flickmace fighter anyway... The +2 that fighters have to accuracy would have made up for the strength deficit. But this sure makes it easier to make that fighter!


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I'm taking a look at alchemist for the first time and I'm sorely disappointed that they seem to have lost a lot of the more bizarre, mad science/body horror elements 1e alchemists had. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places but I can't seem to find anything for tentacles, preserved organs, tumor familiars, vestigial limbs, all that good stuff. Can we get all that back? I would like to have all that back.


multiple mutation based archetype with massive feat list
knight of lastwall level feat list would be great

fleshwarp limited by the low power of ancestry feat just doesn't do enough

a floating drum set for bard to use in combat

more bard feat and a few archetype specialize in dancing acting instrument or singing

obviously a shield rule update just let player have sturdy spellguard shield

elemental aberrantion fey and shadow barbarian


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FormerFiend wrote:
I'm taking a look at alchemist for the first time and I'm sorely disappointed that they seem to have lost a lot of the more bizarre, mad science/body horror elements 1e alchemists had. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places but I can't seem to find anything for tentacles, preserved organs, tumor familiars, vestigial limbs, all that good stuff. Can we get all that back? I would like to have all that back.

As a fan of body horror, I would love to get it all back. Sadly, I doubt we will see it in this social-political atmosphere. It would be seen by a vocal minority as an affront to those with real world disabilities, birth defects, or mutations.


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I would like to see a big book of skill feats which wasnt filled with very niche to barely useable ones and which gives a better range of feats across all of the skills. Currently the imbalance of useful or effective skill feats between skills is just painful given how many characters get over their career.

Horizon Hunters

Ravingdork wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
I'm taking a look at alchemist for the first time and I'm sorely disappointed that they seem to have lost a lot of the more bizarre, mad science/body horror elements 1e alchemists had. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places but I can't seem to find anything for tentacles, preserved organs, tumor familiars, vestigial limbs, all that good stuff. Can we get all that back? I would like to have all that back.
As a fan of body horror, I would love to get it all back. Sadly, I doubt we will see it in this social-political atmosphere. It would be seen by a vocal minority as an affront to those with real world disabilities, birth defects, or mutations.

Some of the spells in Blood Lords AP have been fairly squick if you're into that sort of thing.


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Ravingdork wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
I'm taking a look at alchemist for the first time and I'm sorely disappointed that they seem to have lost a lot of the more bizarre, mad science/body horror elements 1e alchemists had. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places but I can't seem to find anything for tentacles, preserved organs, tumor familiars, vestigial limbs, all that good stuff. Can we get all that back? I would like to have all that back.
As a fan of body horror, I would love to get it all back. Sadly, I doubt we will see it in this social-political atmosphere. It would be seen by a vocal minority as an affront to those with real world disabilities, birth defects, or mutations.

This is kind of a strange take after we just got a book expanding on Fleshwarps. PF2 hasn’t shied away from body horror before.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
keftiu wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
I'm taking a look at alchemist for the first time and I'm sorely disappointed that they seem to have lost a lot of the more bizarre, mad science/body horror elements 1e alchemists had. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places but I can't seem to find anything for tentacles, preserved organs, tumor familiars, vestigial limbs, all that good stuff. Can we get all that back? I would like to have all that back.
As a fan of body horror, I would love to get it all back. Sadly, I doubt we will see it in this social-political atmosphere. It would be seen by a vocal minority as an affront to those with real world disabilities, birth defects, or mutations.

This is kind of a strange take after we just got a book expanding on Fleshwarps. PF2 hasn’t shied away from body horror before.

Monsters get a fair bit of leeway. However it's totally different when you're talking about people, especially people you can play as.

I don't personally have any issues with it; but I'm sure a few people on these boards, and elsewhere, would.

EDIT: As for the fleshwap ancestry that's already out there; there were people who spoke out against it for the very reasons I've mentioned. I sincerely hope Paizo pays them no mind (most of the arguments are patently absurd) and moves forward with expanding on the Alchemist however they see fit.

That's all I'll say on the matter; I don't want this to veer into an off-topic discussion.


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Again, player Fleshwarps just got a lot of love (while mutants broadly got a sensitivity sidebar) in the newest Lost Omens book. You’re fear-mongering about something that has been proven to be a non-issue, and about a “vocal minority” who have completely failed to materialize. Why?

EDIT: For posterity’s sake:

Lost Omens: Impossible Lands, page 332 wrote:

Aberrant, not Ableist!

The trope of the mutant is a common one in speculative fiction but often draws deeply on concepts that fear and mock anyone with an appearance that falls outside of a perceived norm. When creating a mutant, be careful to avoid any traits that might match real-world deformities or disabilities that people might have—a giant wolf mouth in the middle of a mutant’s stomach is okay, but having a simple withered limb or a swollen face might be inappropriate for a mutant character.


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Chaotic and lawful sorcerer bloodlines

Elemental and abberation eidolons

A swarm eidolon/companion/archetype

Horizon Hunters

keftiu wrote:

Again, player Fleshwarps just got a lot of love (while mutants broadly got a sensitivity sidebar) in the newest Lost Omens book. You’re fear-mongering about something that has been proven to be a non-issue, and about a “vocal minority” who have completely failed to materialize. Why?

EDIT: For posterity’s sake:

Lost Omens: Impossible Lands, page 332 wrote:

Aberrant, not Ableist!

The trope of the mutant is a common one in speculative fiction but often draws deeply on concepts that fear and mock anyone with an appearance that falls outside of a perceived norm. When creating a mutant, be careful to avoid any traits that might match real-world deformities or disabilities that people might have—a giant wolf mouth in the middle of a mutant’s stomach is okay, but having a simple withered limb or a swollen face might be inappropriate for a mutant character.

Indeed, and I see nothing there that would suggest tentacles or a Mr. Hyde mutagenist build for an Alchemist would be off limits. Seems they may have just not have got around to it, or there isn't as much interest in aberrations and tentacles as a vocal minority seem to believe.


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So far as I've been able to tell there isn't a way to give your character tentacles outside of certain spells. Every ancestry feat that gives natural weapons gives most anything but tentacles.

Dark Archive

But just wait until they release the squid ancestry!

Wayfinders Contributor

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So... At one point my PF1 Rise of the Runelords gaming group challenged me to not build another gnome / bard / oracle / sorcerer / social-type character and branch out with something different. And then they told me that everyone else had built characters, and they needed something arcane or smashy.

So I built Eddie, a genial half-orc bloodrager / alchemist from Averaka, whose motto was 'Better Living through Chemistry.' He was a combat monster, a canny businessman, and character who delighted in monsters and sympathized with the desire to create them. I think I used every body-horror alchemist option I could find. Tentacles, extra limbs, bat-wings, putting organs in jars... I went all-in!

My proudest moment in Rise of the Runelords came when Eddie heard there was a city of monsters, and he offered to spy on it. The Gm asked me, "How are you sneaking up on it? Invisibility potion?"

"Naw." I grinned. "I'm knocking on the Gates. 'Yo, I hear you're recruiting Monsters! Well, here I am!'" Then Eddie waved his tentacle, and they just let him in.

Don't get me wrong. Eddie was a good person, but his fascination with both monsters and self-modification meant that I could never even get close to recreating him in PF2. Maybe I could build him as a fleshwarp? I miss having a system where I could create a friendly and deluded alchemist who could kick ass in combat, and play with all the monster options.

Hmm


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I wanna be clear - I'd take an Alchemist who throws out all the consumables for permanent personal mutations, tumor homunculi, and the like. My sole brush with PF1 had one of those as one of my players, and I'm bummed that you can't really do any of that fantasy in 2e.

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