Disappointingly Low Damage


Kineticist Class

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Ever since the game released, people have asked for blasters to be better, and have been met with different variations of "but casters have spells, they're too versatile, they can't do high damage!". Alright, that's fair. Ever since then my group and I have been waiting for the famed Kineticist, the class that doesn't have slots but is a magic user that can be a real blaster. What we got in this playtest is as far away from that as it can possibly be.

Let's start with Blast. TL;DR: it's basically a bow. Maybe a slightly worse bow. d6 agile, or d8 but with pretty bad range. d4 with high range if you want to snipe people with wet noodles. "But it's ranged, it should be balanced with a bow!", you may be thinking. And yeah, except this is not a Fighter with a bow. It's not a Ranger or Inventor with a bow. The blasts do the same damage as a Champion with a bow. The class that explicitly doesn't have any damage booster feature because it's tanky as a brick and has the best reactive ability in the game. Not only we're competing with that low of a bar, but we're probably losing to it, because Kineticist also hits with a secondary stat and has a random 2 level delay on their Expert attack proficiency.

But it also has non-blast impulses, and those might make up for it, right...? Well, let's take a look at those. The average overflow impulse does 2d4 + 1d4 per 2 character levels, which is ever so slightly worse than a cantrip like Spout or Scatter Scree (1d4+4 + 1d4 per 2 character levels). But they're AoE! Yes, they are, but they also cost 2+1 actions, and are on a class that only goes to Master DC and will probably want to Apex Str or Dex instead of their key. Some, like Tidal Hands or Aerial Boomerang, are a little stronger, but they also come with area shapes that make you spend even more actions setting them up (cones and lines). And let's keep in mind we're comparing them to cantrips, the weakest feature of a class that has full spellcasting. And Scatter Scree is also an AoE that's basically a more convenient 5ft burst. And I didn't even bring Electric Arc into the table!

As for weaving blasts and overflows to take advantage of one being a save and the other being an attack roll... well I won't say that's not possible, but realistically you can only do that every other turn, assuming you never ever have to move or take any other actions, which is quite an assumption.

Look, I'm not saying this class is all bad. It has neat utility options (shoutout to Flinging Updraft a.k.a The Yeet™). It has good ideas. But man, for it to remotely live up to expectations from people who wanted a no-nonsense blaster, people who liked 1e Kineticist, or honestly, even the own balance of PF2 in terms of how much the Kineticist gives up for the features they get, the damage potential needs to be buffed... A LOT.


Disagree honestly. But I'm at work and can't do a write up right now.


I bet that blast expertise lvl 7 is just an oversight ( as we are talking about a combatant ).


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I agree, this class should really be balanced against a martial, not a caster using cantrips.

When I think of Kineticist I think of martial mechanics with caster flavor. This class should be up there with the best of ranged damage.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
dmerceless wrote:

Ever since the game released, people have asked for blasters to be better, and have been met with different variations of "but casters have spells, they're too versatile, they can't do high damage!". Alright, that's fair. Ever since then my group and I have been waiting for the famed Kineticist, the class that doesn't have slots but is a magic user that can be a real blaster. What we got in this playtest is as far away from that as it can possibly be.

Let's start with Blast. TL;DR: it's basically a bow. Maybe a slightly worse bow. d6 agile, or d8 but with pretty bad range. d4 with high range if you want to snipe people with wet noodles. "But it's ranged, it should be balanced with a bow!", you may be thinking. And yeah, except this is not a Fighter with a bow. It's not a Ranger or Inventor with a bow. The blasts do the same damage as a Champion with a bow. The class that explicitly doesn't have any damage booster feature because it's tanky as a brick and has the best reactive ability in the game. Not only we're competing with that low of a bar, but we're probably losing to it, because Kineticist also hits with a secondary stat and has a random 2 level delay on their Expert attack proficiency.

But it also has non-blast impulses, and those might make up for it, right...? Well, let's take a look at those. The average overflow impulse does 2d4 + 1d4 per 2 character levels, which is ever so slightly worse than a cantrip like Spout or Scatter Scree (1d4+4 + 1d4 per 2 character levels). But they're AoE! Yes, they are, but they also cost 2+1 actions, and are on a class that only goes to Master DC and will probably want to Apex Str or Dex instead of their key. Some, like Tidal Hands or Aerial Boomerang, are a little stronger, but they also come with area shapes that make you spend even more actions setting them up (cones and lines). And let's keep in mind we're comparing them to cantrips, the weakest feature of a class that has full spellcasting. And Scatter Scree is also an AoE that's basically a...

Agreed.


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dmerceless wrote:

Ever since the game released, people have asked for blasters to be better, and have been met with different variations of "but casters have spells, they're too versatile, they can't do high damage!". Alright, that's fair. Ever since then my group and I have been waiting for the famed Kineticist, the class that doesn't have slots but is a magic user that can be a real blaster. What we got in this playtest is as far away from that as it can possibly be.

Let's start with Blast. TL;DR: it's basically a bow. Maybe a slightly worse bow. d6 agile, or d8 but with pretty bad range. d4 with high range if you want to snipe people with wet noodles. "But it's ranged, it should be balanced with a bow!", you may be thinking. And yeah, except this is not a Fighter with a bow. It's not a Ranger or Inventor with a bow. The blasts do the same damage as a Champion with a bow. The class that explicitly doesn't have any damage booster feature because it's tanky as a brick and has the best reactive ability in the game. Not only we're competing with that low of a bar, but we're probably losing to it, because Kineticist also hits with a secondary stat and has a random 2 level delay on their Expert attack proficiency.

But it also has non-blast impulses, and those might make up for it, right...? Well, let's take a look at those. The average overflow impulse does 2d4 + 1d4 per 2 character levels, which is ever so slightly worse than a cantrip like Spout or Scatter Scree (1d4+4 + 1d4 per 2 character levels). But they're AoE! Yes, they are, but they also cost 2+1 actions, and are on a class that only goes to Master DC and will probably want to Apex Str or Dex instead of their key. Some, like Tidal Hands or Aerial Boomerang, are a little stronger, but they also come with area shapes that make you spend even more actions setting them up (cones and lines). And let's keep in mind we're comparing them to cantrips, the weakest feature of a class that has full spellcasting. And Scatter Scree is also an AoE that's basically a...

Finally someone that had the same sensation then me when I read the class.

This even thematically doen't make sense. A blaster class (yes it's a blaster is write many times in the class) that's in theory is the mostly closer to pure elemental power it's just offensively weaker than everyone!
To give an idea, the class got the absurdity of having the 2 biggest problems of the Magus and still being weaker and less versatile in energy type! She is extremely vulnerable to AoO at close range and has an even worse action economy!
Even spellcasters are far stronger. Because even one of the Kineticist's best damage magics like All Shall End In Flames is weaker than any LvL 6 fireball and any lvl 18 caster, even a Oscillating Wave Psychic that only have 2 spellslots per level can thrown a bunch of them and even way stronger due Unleash Psychic or to using it's 6 heightened level spellslots.
I know that someone will say "but spellslots are daily limited" or "the Kineticist can do this unlimitedly" (yet there's still area damage focus spells and AMPs that's in this level allows to use 3 per encounter basically. And I'm also disregarding that a lvl 18 Kineticist can only cast one 3-action Impulse Overflow magic every 2 rounds due the need to Gather Element again) but yet it's a blaster elemental focused class it's still a shame to be weakerany elementar order druid.

So I know there are many people happier with the Kineticist class but I'm very disappointed with the class being so weak specially in the thing that it's was conceptually developed. To blast the others.


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There are many things I like about the class but if there are two things I am disappointed in. The damage is low, with the most powerful stuff it can do being comparable to maybe two cantrip casts, costing 4 actions basically. And following that of course the action economy. Too many things cost 3 actions.

Also I guess duration. Some things can be sustained, usually for a minute, but apparently you can't actually sustain things for more than 20 minutes. But some of these things seem like things the Kineticist would want on at all times. Especially things like Assume the Earth's Mantle. And of course the duration of Auras, or more precisely that they can't be used outside of combat.


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Yeah, I'm in a group that was going to do something like the Pro Bending in Korra, with 1 dedicated gate of each element on a team to try things out... Do you know how long it takes to tickle someone with 22hp to death with a 1d4 attack... Especially when compared to a 1d8+1. When you have a range increment of 120' it's kind of lame that you do more damage if you melee with a str of 12. At least it's reach. :P


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think one thing holding blast damage back is the fact that these are truly one-handed ranged weapons with melee modes built in (except the melee then provokes for some reason). They aren't 1+ or even 1 but then you need a free hand to reload. They are fully one hand.

And I think many would want to use two hands instead, at least some of the time.


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Wholeheartedly agree. They need to up the damage across the board, by a fairly large margin. If they want to stick with the current design of 'not really martial, not really caster'.

Or they have to bank harder on one aspect.

If they make baseline blasts stronger, add in ways to customize them, and then make impulses way stronger but limited they would have something.

The thing is cantrip like spells don't mesh well with good at will strike damage. Current casters resort to cantrips when they:

A. Got no more big spells left
B. Are saving their big spells.
If casters had martial level strike damg, offensive cantrips wouldnt have a purpose (and it would be broken).

I think they need to up the baseline damg and have a limited resource pool the kineticist can spend to add oomph. Be it burn or whatever.
And then make elemental blasts customizable with feats that adds additional effects, from persistent damg, to aoe, debuffs, what have you.

That would make the kineticist an at will blaster with the niche of being able to adapt said at will damg with effects appropriate to the encounter.

Currently they are just meh. The impulses are fairly weak, and have a high action cost.
It dosent matter that they can go all day, if most abilities are 3-4 AP moves with mediocre results.

A druid with the mauler archetype and a bear companion can go all day. Dosent make it a good martial, let alone a good build.

Edit:

I think the kineticist has the potential to be the most fun and unique class in pf2e yet. But from my POV judging by the current iteration, there's a long and slippery road ahead if they wanna pull it off


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Yea I'm hoping the final kineticist picks a lane a bit harder to allow some stronger impact (I'll throw my hat in the martial ring bc I think the blaster everyone wants should be good at blasting). After last night's first playtest session, my first impression is that being middling as both a martial and a caster leaves you feeling a bit bad compared to dedicated roles.


Where should the expectation on damage be is my wonder.

For basic blasts without feats, they are basically magical stances with a melee and ranged component. That in of itself is strong. A monk has to spend a feat to get less. Granted they have flurry of blows and an 18 in an attacking stat to help out.

Beyond that there are numerous blast oriented feats. Issue I see is they have no base feature to help their damage. No sneak attack, rage, extra accuracy, flurry, hunters edge.

As for the overflow attacks. Issue I see is they cost a feat and do usually less damage than a cantrip. Why not let them have con to damage and scaling so to at least make them on par with cantrips.

I don't think you can justify making them notably stronger then cantrips without giving them a limited per day mechanic.

You could give the class a limited per day mechanic and have it affect both blast's as well as overflow abilities and kill try birds with one stone.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:

Where should the expectation on damage be is my wonder.

For basic blasts without feats, they are basically magical stances with a melee and ranged component. That in of itself is strong. A monk has to spend a feat to get less. Granted they have flurry of blows and an 18 in an attacking stat to help out.

Beyond that there are numerous blast oriented feats. Issue I see is they have no base feature to help their damage. No sneak attack, rage, extra accuracy, flurry, hunters edge.

As for the overflow attacks. Issue I see is they cost a feat and do usually less damage than a cantrip. Why not let them have con to damage and scaling so to at least make them on par with cantrips.

I don't think you can justify making them notably stronger then cantrips without giving them a limited per day mechanic.

You could give the class a limited per day mechanic and have it affect both blast's as well as overflow abilities and kill try birds with one stone.

Casters get versatility spells that are limited along with big blasty limited spells.. along with cantrips and legendary DC.

Why can't our only schtick be stronger than cantrips and have no limit again?

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

If our classes abilities should be no stronger than cantrips, why even play a kineticist?

Each adventuring day I'm usually not going to run out of spells all that frequently when at high level, before we end up resting. Same with focus spells. I'll use like two focus spells as a psychic and the battle will almost be over.

Fights last 3-4 rounds. As low of the damage as kineticists are, it doesn't justify them being able to go "all day"

As that "all day" draw is merely an illusion.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

STR based Earth Kintecists can get pretty solid damage numbers. People are just scared of building into the glass cannon that gets brought down quickly, and so they are mostly building into Earth (from what I have seen on these boards) for melee focused, defensive builds.

I bet we see some minor damage boosting options become more clearly established in the final version of the class, but it is going to stay pretty minor because the entire class design is around peppering lots of enemies every round with damage and controlling the battlefield, by creating terrain effects that force movement, often through difficult terrain. Something designed to boost Air's damage has to be aware of how it is going to stack with a D8 damage die attack, and something that assumes players will only be making one attack a round is going to have to force that issue by taking up three actions to do.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Unicore wrote:

STR based Earth Kintecists can get pretty solid damage numbers. People are just scared of building into the glass cannon that gets brought down quickly, and so they are mostly building into Earth (from what I have seen on these boards) for melee focused, defensive builds.

I bet we see some minor damage boosting options become more clearly established in the final version of the class, but it is going to stay pretty minor because the entire class design is around peppering lots of enemies every round with damage and controlling the battlefield, by creating terrain effects that force movement, often through difficult terrain. Something designed to boost Air's damage has to be aware of how it is going to stack with a D8 damage die attack, and something that assumes players will only be making one attack a round is going to have to force that issue by taking up three actions to do.

.. they deal 1 additional damage at level 1 and have a 2d4 scatter scree which is worse than scatter scree.


Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

Where should the expectation on damage be is my wonder.

For basic blasts without feats, they are basically magical stances with a melee and ranged component. That in of itself is strong. A monk has to spend a feat to get less. Granted they have flurry of blows and an 18 in an attacking stat to help out.

Beyond that there are numerous blast oriented feats. Issue I see is they have no base feature to help their damage. No sneak attack, rage, extra accuracy, flurry, hunters edge.

As for the overflow attacks. Issue I see is they cost a feat and do usually less damage than a cantrip. Why not let them have con to damage and scaling so to at least make them on par with cantrips.

I don't think you can justify making them notably stronger then cantrips without giving them a limited per day mechanic.

You could give the class a limited per day mechanic and have it affect both blast's as well as overflow abilities and kill try birds with one stone.

Casters get versatility spells that are limited along with big blasty limited spells.. along with cantrips and legendary DC.

Why can't our only schtick be stronger than cantrips and have no limit again?

Why do you always make cherry picked arguments that leave out important information.

Like how kineticist is a martial with baseline strikes in the form of blast's. While casters do not get master in attacks or armor.

How every AOE option and overflow ability as it is, is purely optional. Making it not our only shtick.

How theirs are limited and therefore stronger while ours are unlimited and therefore weaker.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Unicore wrote:

STR based Earth Kintecists can get pretty solid damage numbers. People are just scared of building into the glass cannon that gets brought down quickly, and so they are mostly building into Earth (from what I have seen on these boards) for melee focused, defensive builds.

I bet we see some minor damage boosting options become more clearly established in the final version of the class, but it is going to stay pretty minor because the entire class design is around peppering lots of enemies every round with damage and controlling the battlefield, by creating terrain effects that force movement, often through difficult terrain. Something designed to boost Air's damage has to be aware of how it is going to stack with a D8 damage die attack, and something that assumes players will only be making one attack a round is going to have to force that issue by taking up three actions to do.

I feel like I have to take cantrips from other classes to feel relevant and that feels bad.


Verzen wrote:

If our classes abilities should be no stronger than cantrips, why even play a kineticist?

Each adventuring day I'm usually not going to run out of spells all that frequently when at high level, before we end up resting. Same with focus spells. I'll use like two focus spells as a psychic and the battle will almost be over.

Fights last 3-4 rounds. As low of the damage as kineticists are, it doesn't justify them being able to go "all day"

As that "all day" draw is merely an illusion.

3-4 rounds for your table mainly but that's not universal.

Beyond that I think many are ok with stronger aoe options at the cost of times per day.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

Where should the expectation on damage be is my wonder.

For basic blasts without feats, they are basically magical stances with a melee and ranged component. That in of itself is strong. A monk has to spend a feat to get less. Granted they have flurry of blows and an 18 in an attacking stat to help out.

Beyond that there are numerous blast oriented feats. Issue I see is they have no base feature to help their damage. No sneak attack, rage, extra accuracy, flurry, hunters edge.

As for the overflow attacks. Issue I see is they cost a feat and do usually less damage than a cantrip. Why not let them have con to damage and scaling so to at least make them on par with cantrips.

I don't think you can justify making them notably stronger then cantrips without giving them a limited per day mechanic.

You could give the class a limited per day mechanic and have it affect both blast's as well as overflow abilities and kill try birds with one stone.

Casters get versatility spells that are limited along with big blasty limited spells.. along with cantrips and legendary DC.

Why can't our only schtick be stronger than cantrips and have no limit again?

Why do you always make cherry picked arguments that leave out important information.

Like how kineticist is a martial with baseline strikes in the form of blast's. While casters do not get master in attacks or armor.

How every AOE option and overflow ability as it is, is purely optional. Making it not our only shtick.

How theirs are limited and therefore stronger while ours are unlimited and therefore weaker.

Lmao. You can't claim kineticist is a martial when our attacks hit as weak as a pea shooter, get ZERO damage boosting effects, and act as an afterthought move of stuff you just do in between setting up your next overflow ability.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Attacks that make contact easier are useless if those attacks that make contact hit like a wet noodle.

A caster with 16 dex hits has as much a chance of hitting something with a long bow and dealing the same damage as a kineticist. More damage. Even, for half of the blasts!

And gets cantrips! Sure it doesn't get light armor but that's just 1 or 2 AC. Not that big of a deal and doesn't provide much protection.

Due to only getting 16 dex, a rogue has better AC at level 1 and they are generally viewed as the squishiest martials.

So they would deal infinitely less damage than a caster with a longbow and cantrips.


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Unicore wrote:
I bet we see some minor damage boosting options become more clearly established in the final version of the class, but it is going to stay pretty minor because the entire class design is around peppering lots of enemies every round with damage and controlling the battlefield, by creating terrain effects that force movement, often through difficult terrain. Something designed to boost Air's damage has to be aware of how it is going to stack with a D8 damage die attack, and something that assumes players will only be making one attack a round is going to have to force that issue by taking up three actions to do.

If this is the only thing we get, the class will be incredibly weak at the thing a lot of people want it to do (blasting).

Controller Kineticist might even be pretty good, but that's not the Kineticist I want. I can already be a controller with any of the many, many spellcasting options. Meanwhile blasting, especially single target blasting, is really subpar to compensate for all the options casters get.


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Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

Where should the expectation on damage be is my wonder.

For basic blasts without feats, they are basically magical stances with a melee and ranged component. That in of itself is strong. A monk has to spend a feat to get less. Granted they have flurry of blows and an 18 in an attacking stat to help out.

Beyond that there are numerous blast oriented feats. Issue I see is they have no base feature to help their damage. No sneak attack, rage, extra accuracy, flurry, hunters edge.

As for the overflow attacks. Issue I see is they cost a feat and do usually less damage than a cantrip. Why not let them have con to damage and scaling so to at least make them on par with cantrips.

I don't think you can justify making them notably stronger then cantrips without giving them a limited per day mechanic.

You could give the class a limited per day mechanic and have it affect both blast's as well as overflow abilities and kill try birds with one stone.

Casters get versatility spells that are limited along with big blasty limited spells.. along with cantrips and legendary DC.

Why can't our only schtick be stronger than cantrips and have no limit again?

Why do you always make cherry picked arguments that leave out important information.

Like how kineticist is a martial with baseline strikes in the form of blast's. While casters do not get master in attacks or armor.

How every AOE option and overflow ability as it is, is purely optional. Making it not our only shtick.

How theirs are limited and therefore stronger while ours are unlimited and therefore weaker.

Lmao. You can't claim kineticist is a martial when our attacks hit as weak as a pea shooter, get ZERO damage boosting effects, and act as an afterthought move of stuff you just do in between setting up your next overflow ability.

I'm with unicore in this one. Expect to see a minor damage bump in one or two ways. But nothing major. Not without giving limits.

And me saying they are a martial has nothing to do with their current damage and everything to do with the fact they achieved Master proficiency in attacks, armor, and start with two expert saves.

Don't discount half the class just because it's not the part you like.

Pushing this further. Just by looking at the playtest material. This is striker first, everything else second. We don't get any 1st level overflow impulses for free like casters do cantrips. We get blast's Wich are martial strikes with a magical flavor. Similar to stances.

Champion has zero damage boosts. Monks don't have much for actual damage boosts but action economy hacks that work similar and stances Wich are similar to blast's. They get limited damage boost options with focus points.

And as I've said, can easily see a minor damage bump. But this is not a rogue or barbarian. Can't expect every martial to destroy the damage charts. Especially not one this versatile out the gate.

But yes, I do expect and support some damage bump.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

Where should the expectation on damage be is my wonder.

For basic blasts without feats, they are basically magical stances with a melee and ranged component. That in of itself is strong. A monk has to spend a feat to get less. Granted they have flurry of blows and an 18 in an attacking stat to help out.

Beyond that there are numerous blast oriented feats. Issue I see is they have no base feature to help their damage. No sneak attack, rage, extra accuracy, flurry, hunters edge.

As for the overflow attacks. Issue I see is they cost a feat and do usually less damage than a cantrip. Why not let them have con to damage and scaling so to at least make them on par with cantrips.

I don't think you can justify making them notably stronger then cantrips without giving them a limited per day mechanic.

You could give the class a limited per day mechanic and have it affect both blast's as well as overflow abilities and kill try birds with one stone.

Casters get versatility spells that are limited along with big blasty limited spells.. along with cantrips and legendary DC.

Why can't our only schtick be stronger than cantrips and have no limit again?

Why do you always make cherry picked arguments that leave out important information.

Like how kineticist is a martial with baseline strikes in the form of blast's. While casters do not get master in attacks or armor.

How every AOE option and overflow ability as it is, is purely optional. Making it not our only shtick.

How theirs are limited and therefore stronger while ours are unlimited and therefore weaker.

Lmao. You can't claim kineticist is a martial when our attacks hit as weak as a pea shooter, get ZERO damage boosting effects, and act as an afterthought move of stuff you just do in between setting up your next overflow ability.
I'm with unicore in this one. Expect to see a minor damage bump in...

"It's a striker first" without literally any boosts to striker damage lmao.


Verzen wrote:

Attacks that make contact easier are useless if those attacks that make contact hit like a wet noodle.

A caster with 16 dex hits has as much a chance of hitting something with a long bow and dealing the same damage as a kineticist. More damage. Even, for half of the blasts!

And gets cantrips! Sure it doesn't get light armor but that's just 1 or 2 AC. Not that big of a deal and doesn't provide much protection.

Due to only getting 16 dex, a rogue has better AC at level 1 and they are generally viewed as the squishiest martials.

So they would deal infinitely less damage than a caster with a longbow and cantrips.

Caster with bow is again cherry picked. As that stops being true the moment martials gain expert proficiency before them. I agree though kineticists should be at level 5.

I like how 1 or 2 ac doesn't matter but 1 or 2 to hit does. Very telling.

And again, I don't think many are saying at this point that they don't expect them to get some more damage. Though it sounds like it will be less than what you personally would hope for.


Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

Where should the expectation on damage be is my wonder.

For basic blasts without feats, they are basically magical stances with a melee and ranged component. That in of itself is strong. A monk has to spend a feat to get less. Granted they have flurry of blows and an 18 in an attacking stat to help out.

Beyond that there are numerous blast oriented feats. Issue I see is they have no base feature to help their damage. No sneak attack, rage, extra accuracy, flurry, hunters edge.

As for the overflow attacks. Issue I see is they cost a feat and do usually less damage than a cantrip. Why not let them have con to damage and scaling so to at least make them on par with cantrips.

I don't think you can justify making them notably stronger then cantrips without giving them a limited per day mechanic.

You could give the class a limited per day mechanic and have it affect both blast's as well as overflow abilities and kill try birds with one stone.

Casters get versatility spells that are limited along with big blasty limited spells.. along with cantrips and legendary DC.

Why can't our only schtick be stronger than cantrips and have no limit again?

Why do you always make cherry picked arguments that leave out important information.

Like how kineticist is a martial with baseline strikes in the form of blast's. While casters do not get master in attacks or armor.

How every AOE option and overflow ability as it is, is purely optional. Making it not our only shtick.

How theirs are limited and therefore stronger while ours are unlimited and therefore weaker.

Lmao. You can't claim kineticist is a martial when our attacks hit as weak as a pea shooter, get ZERO damage boosting effects, and act as an afterthought move of stuff you just do in between setting up your next overflow ability.
I'm with unicore in this one.
...

You are not even listening to what's being said at this point and it's obvious.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Might as well say Champion is a striker, now! Its a martial and deals equal damage!


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Verzen wrote:
Might as well say Champion is a striker, now! Its a martial and deals equal damage!

It literally is. Why in earth would you think otherwise. Martials prioritize strikes.


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Quote:
Champion has zero damage boosts. Monks don't have much for actual damage boosts but action economy hacks that work similar and stances Wich are similar to blast's. They get limited damage boost options with focus points.

I mean, the difference is those classes are actually good at what they're designed to do.

If the Kineticists niche is both generally irrelevant (which it is, long days full of AoE are super rare) AND it's bad at it, they should keep the class out of the book and try again later.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:

Attacks that make contact easier are useless if those attacks that make contact hit like a wet noodle.

A caster with 16 dex hits has as much a chance of hitting something with a long bow and dealing the same damage as a kineticist. More damage. Even, for half of the blasts!

And gets cantrips! Sure it doesn't get light armor but that's just 1 or 2 AC. Not that big of a deal and doesn't provide much protection.

Due to only getting 16 dex, a rogue has better AC at level 1 and they are generally viewed as the squishiest martials.

So they would deal infinitely less damage than a caster with a longbow and cantrips.

Caster with bow is again cherry picked. As that stops being true the moment martials gain expert proficiency before them. I agree though kineticists should be at level 5.

I like how 1 or 2 ac doesn't matter but 1 or 2 to hit does. Very telling.

And again, I don't think many are saying at this point that they don't expect them to get some more damage. Though it sounds like it will be less than what you personally would hope for.

So.. at 5th level when casters are dealing 5d4+4 damage with cantrips which are 15.5 avg dmg along with fireballs dealing 6d6 damage and barbarians are dealing 2d12+10 damage, usually twice, I, a kineticist, is stuck with 2d4 dmg blasts as air.. or a 3d4 damage boomerang that deals on avg 5 dmg for blasts or 7.5 damage in a line for a boomerang.

So I deal 7.5 boomerang damage vs 21 aoe fireball damage and 3d4+4 electric arc damage that deals an avg of 11.5 damage to two different targets with zero risk of hitting my own allies vs 7.5 damage in a line where I risk hitting my own allies... AND the boomerang takes more actions.

So the boomerang deals 2.5 damage per action if it hits 1 person. While electric arc deals 11.5 damage per action.

So in order to make the boomerang worth it, per action invested, I need to hit 5 people with the boomerang without hitting my allies. If I can't hit 5 people, I'm better off using electric arc.

Chances of me hitting 5 targets in a straight line is exceptionally .. low.


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At 5th the boomerang is 4d4.


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Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Might as well say Champion is a striker, now! Its a martial and deals equal damage!
It literally is. Why in earth would you think otherwise. Martials prioritize strikes.

Champion is someone who makes strikes, yes. When people say Striker, though, they tend to mean it with the definition popularized by D&D 4e: basically someone whose main role is to do damage. Champion doesn't get a damage booster because it's not a Striker, it's a Defender, Tank, or whatever you want to call it. Your role in the group is being sturdier than your fellow companions and drawing enemies to attack you instead of them. They pay for their defensive ability with doing less damage.

Kineticist, in the other hand, has strikes, but they're basically tiny action fillers. And unlike Champion, I don't think it really compensates for the low damage with... anything, really. Plus a lot of people want it to be "the magical Striker". A damage dealer. Not whatever it's trying to be now.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Might as well say Champion is a striker, now! Its a martial and deals equal damage!
It literally is. Why in earth would you think otherwise. Martials prioritize strikes.

I have no choice but to declare that you don't know what a striker is.

A striker is a melee or ranged dps class that focuses on making strikes to be useful.

Champion is a TANK. Not a striker. They focus on protecting the party and having the highest AC in the game.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And the boomerang makes attacks on the second round as well.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Guntermench wrote:
Quote:
Champion has zero damage boosts. Monks don't have much for actual damage boosts but action economy hacks that work similar and stances Wich are similar to blast's. They get limited damage boost options with focus points.

I mean, the difference is those classes are actually good at what they're designed to do.

If the Kineticists niche is both generally irrelevant (which it is, long days full of AoE are super rare) AND it's bad at it, they should keep the class out of the book and try again later.

As much as it pains me to admit it, even if we never get the class, I agree.


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Guntermench wrote:
Quote:
Champion has zero damage boosts. Monks don't have much for actual damage boosts but action economy hacks that work similar and stances Wich are similar to blast's. They get limited damage boost options with focus points.

I mean, the difference is those classes are actually good at what they're designed to do.

If the Kineticists niche is both generally irrelevant (which it is, long days full of AoE are super rare) AND it's bad at it, they should keep the class out of the book and try again later.

This is a playtest. I don't think I ever said the class was perfect.

But you are not going to have martial progression tables with caster progression tables and no limits to your aoe. You are just not.

Also I have issue with the notion that this versions niche is aoe. If it was. Every kineticist would automatically start with an aoe of some kind, as a feature.

Rather the kineticist is a little like a fighter or a monk. In that they don't have a direct niche but a few niches they can lean into as they level. Be it more blasting. Aoe. Or support.

The support abilities are fantastic btw. As pretty much none of them have the overflow tag

People keep talking to the aoe. And it's not even a base feature.

But I'll repeat it until I'm blue in the face. I agree. They need better damage. Fact is right now, even not talking about overflow. Those abilities are typically weaker than a cantrip. Wich isn't ok.

At the same I disagree that they can be straight up better than a cantrip without giving them limits. I don't care if your tables average rounds per encounter is 2. It still needs the limit to allow for greater power

Focus points is an easy fix. Ultimately.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Guntermench wrote:
At 5th the boomerang is 4d4.

Oh. My bad. So 10 damage = 3.33 dmg per action per target.. requires 4 targets to be worth it. Not 5.

Still.. what self respecting 4 targets are all neatly lined up for me?


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Martialmasters wrote:
For basic blasts without feats, they are basically magical stances with a melee and ranged component.

I just want to point out that the option to take stance feats that modify the blast would be an interesting thematic addition to the class, and another action economy saver that could be tied to Gather Power.

Martialmasters wrote:
Where should the expectation on damage be is my wonder.

I think that elemental blasts should be on-par with Thaumaturge or Inventor Strikes, regular impulses should be equivalent to cantrips, and big overflow impulses (3-action) should fall just shy of the best two-action focus spells.

It doesn't have to all of these at once, but they all need to be possible.


Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Might as well say Champion is a striker, now! Its a martial and deals equal damage!
It literally is. Why in earth would you think otherwise. Martials prioritize strikes.

I have no choice but to declare that you don't know what a striker is.

A striker is a melee or ranged dps class that focuses on making strikes to be useful.

Champion is a TANK. Not a striker. They focus on protecting the party and having the highest AC in the game.

I'll be perfectly honest with you. At this point. I don't really care what your definition of much is. I'm just saying it's a striker because it relies on strikes with martial proficiency bonuses. The long and short of it.

So declare what you like. Doesn't change that your grasp of this systems balance I find tenuous at best.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Unicore wrote:
And the boomerang makes attacks on the second round as well.

Not counting those because look at the practicality of it. People will literally just move out of the way. They know it's coming so they'll move. In reality it's more like a, "I'm going to waste a few creatures 1st actions" so it acts as a slow to a couple creatures.


manbearscientist wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
For basic blasts without feats, they are basically magical stances with a melee and ranged component.

I just want to point out that the option to take stance feats that modify the blast would be an interesting thematic addition to the class, and another action economy saver that could be tied to Gather Power.

Martialmasters wrote:
Where should the expectation on damage be is my wonder.
I think that elemental blasts should be on-par with Thaumaturge or Inventor Strikes, regular impulses should be equivalent to cantrips, and big overflow impulses (3-action) should fall just shy of the best two-action focus spells.

That's kinda my thought as well. Somewhere around there. Thanks for being reasonable in this discussion.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Might as well say Champion is a striker, now! Its a martial and deals equal damage!
It literally is. Why in earth would you think otherwise. Martials prioritize strikes.

I have no choice but to declare that you don't know what a striker is.

A striker is a melee or ranged dps class that focuses on making strikes to be useful.

Champion is a TANK. Not a striker. They focus on protecting the party and having the highest AC in the game.

I'll be perfectly honest with you. At this point. I don't really care what your definition of much is. I'm just saying it's a striker because it relies on strikes with martial proficiency bonuses. The long and short of it.

So declare what you like. Doesn't change that your grasp of this systems balance I find tenuous at best.

... thats just a martial? we already have a word for that, striker is a damage focused martial

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Quote:
Champion has zero damage boosts. Monks don't have much for actual damage boosts but action economy hacks that work similar and stances Wich are similar to blast's. They get limited damage boost options with focus points.

I mean, the difference is those classes are actually good at what they're designed to do.

If the Kineticists niche is both generally irrelevant (which it is, long days full of AoE are super rare) AND it's bad at it, they should keep the class out of the book and try again later.

This is a playtest. I don't think I ever said the class was perfect.

But you are not going to have martial progression tables with caster progression tables and no limits to your aoe. You are just not.

Also I have issue with the notion that this versions niche is aoe. If it was. Every kineticist would automatically start with an aoe of some kind, as a feature.

Rather the kineticist is a little like a fighter or a monk. In that they don't have a direct niche but a few niches they can lean into as they level. Be it more blasting. Aoe. Or support.

The support abilities are fantastic btw. As pretty much none of them have the overflow tag

People keep talking to the aoe. And it's not even a base feature.

But I'll repeat it until I'm blue in the face. I agree. They need better damage. Fact is right now, even not talking about overflow. Those abilities are typically weaker than a cantrip. Wich isn't ok.

At the same I disagree that they can be straight up better than a cantrip without giving them limits. I don't care if your tables average rounds per encounter is 2. It still needs the limit to allow for greater power

Focus points is an easy fix. Ultimately.

Again. Martial progression is meaningless if they can't do anything with their martial strikes and deal very very low damage with them.

Every martial striker class has SOMETHING to help their martial attacks.

Fighter has expert and gets legendary. Ranger has flurry. Monk has flurry of blows. Barbarian has outright damage increases. Inventor has overdrive.

Can you name me a single martial math fixer that kineticist has aside from "getting master at 13th level"?

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Might as well say Champion is a striker, now! Its a martial and deals equal damage!
It literally is. Why in earth would you think otherwise. Martials prioritize strikes.

I have no choice but to declare that you don't know what a striker is.

A striker is a melee or ranged dps class that focuses on making strikes to be useful.

Champion is a TANK. Not a striker. They focus on protecting the party and having the highest AC in the game.

I'll be perfectly honest with you. At this point. I don't really care what your definition of much is. I'm just saying it's a striker because it relies on strikes with martial proficiency bonuses. The long and short of it.

So declare what you like. Doesn't change that your grasp of this systems balance I find tenuous at best.

Lmao. I've been gaming all my life. I have 30 years of gaming under my belt. I've designed games. I understand full well how balance is done.

The part you're failing to comprehend is that "to attack" bonuses are irrelevant if when they hit, they don't do anything.

It's the context that you're failing to grasp.


Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Quote:
Champion has zero damage boosts. Monks don't have much for actual damage boosts but action economy hacks that work similar and stances Wich are similar to blast's. They get limited damage boost options with focus points.

I mean, the difference is those classes are actually good at what they're designed to do.

If the Kineticists niche is both generally irrelevant (which it is, long days full of AoE are super rare) AND it's bad at it, they should keep the class out of the book and try again later.

This is a playtest. I don't think I ever said the class was perfect.

But you are not going to have martial progression tables with caster progression tables and no limits to your aoe. You are just not.

Also I have issue with the notion that this versions niche is aoe. If it was. Every kineticist would automatically start with an aoe of some kind, as a feature.

Rather the kineticist is a little like a fighter or a monk. In that they don't have a direct niche but a few niches they can lean into as they level. Be it more blasting. Aoe. Or support.

The support abilities are fantastic btw. As pretty much none of them have the overflow tag

People keep talking to the aoe. And it's not even a base feature.

But I'll repeat it until I'm blue in the face. I agree. They need better damage. Fact is right now, even not talking about overflow. Those abilities are typically weaker than a cantrip. Wich isn't ok.

At the same I disagree that they can be straight up better than a cantrip without giving them limits. I don't care if your tables average rounds per encounter is 2. It still needs the limit to allow for greater power

Focus points is an easy fix. Ultimately.

Again. Martial progression is meaningless if they can't do anything with their martial strikes and deal very very low damage with them.

Every martial striker class has SOMETHING to help their martial attacks.

Fighter has expert and gets...

Some of the blast feats actually.

But I'm curious as to how many times you can ignore the part where I say I do think the class needs a damage bump.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Might as well say Champion is a striker, now! Its a martial and deals equal damage!
It literally is. Why in earth would you think otherwise. Martials prioritize strikes.

I have no choice but to declare that you don't know what a striker is.

A striker is a melee or ranged dps class that focuses on making strikes to be useful.

Champion is a TANK. Not a striker. They focus on protecting the party and having the highest AC in the game.

I'll be perfectly honest with you. At this point. I don't really care what your definition of much is. I'm just saying it's a striker because it relies on strikes with martial proficiency bonuses. The long and short of it.

So declare what you like. Doesn't change that your grasp of this systems balance I find tenuous at best.

... thats just a martial? we already have a word for that, striker is a damage focused martial
I really don't care. I will continue with this general lack of care. But I hope you have a productive day

im just saying, productive conversation only really works when we all are using the same definition of the words in use, having multiple definitions of a word in use in an argument just leads to needless confusion where people cant be sure exactly what anyone is talking about


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Martialmasters wrote:
But you are not going to have martial progression tables with caster progression tables and no limits to your aoe. You are just not.

But why not? AoE elemental damage is one of the least powerful things a full caster can do among all the useful tools it has at its disposal. Do you even tried out casters in the first place? To me it seems like you are repeating something you heard without actually testing out if it is true or not.

If the action economy is worse and they cannot do the buffs, debuffs, battlefield control effects and general utility a caster provides, what's the issue with having actual good AoE and single target damage?


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roquepo wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
But you are not going to have martial progression tables with caster progression tables and no limits to your aoe. You are just not.

But why not? AoE elemental damage is one of the least powerful things a full caster can do among all the useful tools it has at its disposal. Do you even tried out casters in the first place? To me it seems like you are repeating something you heard without actually testing out if it is true or not.

If the action economy is worse and they cannot do the buffs, debuffs, battlefield control effects and general utility a caster provides, what's the issue with having actual good AoE and single target damage?

I've played 2, and a druid in my campaign.

I honestly disagree.

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