Disappointingly Low Damage


Kineticist Class

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
I've been comparing to a rogue with a shorbow, my damage MVP in the AP I've been running.

My shortbow Investigator has similarly felt insane. Stealth to initiative is so so good on archers.

But you're proving my point. If the rogue deals consistent sneak attack damage they get full martial single target damage. The kineticist will have to deal less than that for single target if they also want AoE and utility.

Rogues certainly do have utility, though I think it is hard to compare extra skills and skill feats to things like flight and invisibility. You're solving different problems there.

But they have nada for AoE and will have less hit points to boot. So even if you call their utility a wash the rogue would still be too high a benchmark for single target.

rogue already has plenty of utility, they have 10 skill up's and 10 skill feats worth of utility power budget we have to work with, as for aoe, as ive previously stated i think its nice, but i dont think its especially valuable, and certanly should not be a classes focal point
It is still going eat into your class budget though, regardless of whether it is the focal point. Having the tool is a significant advantage that straight up martials largely don't have. So your single target damage will inevitably suffer for it.

barbarians can aoe https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=148 so can fighter and ranger https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=426 inventors have explosion built in, magus has access to all kinds of aoe with or without spellstrike, eldritch trickster just has spells and thaumaturge can throw around scrolls.

now these are all admitidly much slimmer pickings than the kineticist, but they also do more damage for less actions at aproximatly the same dc (class dc growth is wobbly) now im not saying that for instance dragon barbarian is better at aoe than a kineticist, but i am saying that treating it as an exclusive commoddity that other martials just dont get is factually incorrect


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Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
I've been comparing to a rogue with a shorbow, my damage MVP in the AP I've been running.

My shortbow Investigator has similarly felt insane. Stealth to initiative is so so good on archers.

But you're proving my point. If the rogue deals consistent sneak attack damage they get full martial single target damage. The kineticist will have to deal less than that for single target if they also want AoE and utility.

Rogues certainly do have utility, though I think it is hard to compare extra skills and skill feats to things like flight and invisibility. You're solving different problems there.

But they have nada for AoE and will have less hit points to boot. So even if you call their utility a wash the rogue would still be too high a benchmark for single target.

rogue already has plenty of utility, they have 10 skill up's and 10 skill feats worth of utility power budget we have to work with, as for aoe, as ive previously stated i think its nice, but i dont think its especially valuable, and certanly should not be a classes focal point
It is still going eat into your class budget though, regardless of whether it is the focal point. Having the tool is a significant advantage that straight up martials largely don't have. So your single target damage will inevitably suffer for it.

barbarians can aoe https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=148 so can fighter and ranger https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=426 inventors have explosion built in, magus has access to all kinds of aoe with or without spellstrike, eldritch trickster just has spells and thaumaturge can throw around scrolls.

now these are all admitidly much slimmer pickings than the kineticist, but they also do more damage for less actions at aproximatly the same dc (class dc growth is wobbly) now im not saying that for instance dragon barbarian is better at aoe than a kineticist, but i am saying that treating it as...

I am struggling to see how people aren't seeing how weak the damage is in the Kineticist as presented. Seems painfully obvious.


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Martialmasters wrote:

Universalist definitely needs a nerf of some kind. Or the whole being immune thing needs rethinking. That class feature alone is enough to make it near folly to play anything else.

What exactly do you think they become immune to? They are only immune to the damage of things with the trait of their Element. Which is fine for Fire, lots of things have the Fire trait.

Water has Flowing Wave strikes, Pulverizing Cascade focus spell, Tempest Touch focus spell, maybe Unbreaking Wave Advance focus spell though the damage is more for if you knock something into a wall so maybe not?

The creatures with the Water trait are Brine Dragon, Bronze Dragon, Sea Dragon, Blizzardborn, Brine Shark, Danava Titan, Draugr, Drenchdead, Elemental Tsunami, Elemental Vessel, Water, Grodair, Ice Mephit, Icewyrm, Icicle Snake, Ledalusca, Living Waterfall, Marid, Minchgorm, Mist Stalker, Mudwretch, Naiad, Naiad Queen, Nereid, Ooze Mephit, Quatoid, Riekanoy, River Drake, Rusalka, Sea Drake, Steam Mephit, Tidal Master, Tidehawk, Water Mephit, Water Orm, Water Wisp, Water Yai.

As for spells with the Water Trait there are Aqueous Orb, Cataclysm, Control Water, Crashing Wave, Create Water, Deluge, Elemental Annihilation Wave, Elemental Confluence, Flowing Strike, Frigid Flurry, Geyser, Holy Cascade, Hydraulic Push, Hydraulic Torrent, Mud Pit, Obscuring Mist, Personal Rain Cloud, Pillar of Water, Quench, Sea Surge, Snowball, Solid Fog, Soothing Spring, Spout, Wall of Ice, Wall of Water.

Not all of which deal damage. Of course there are Water Impulses now. Still that is a small fraction of the things someone is going to face. It is better obviously if you have multiple elements gathered, but still most of the things you will face do not have the Air, Earth, Fire or Water trait.


Kylian Winters wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
I've been comparing to a rogue with a shorbow, my damage MVP in the AP I've been running.

My shortbow Investigator has similarly felt insane. Stealth to initiative is so so good on archers.

But you're proving my point. If the rogue deals consistent sneak attack damage they get full martial single target damage. The kineticist will have to deal less than that for single target if they also want AoE and utility.

Rogues certainly do have utility, though I think it is hard to compare extra skills and skill feats to things like flight and invisibility. You're solving different problems there.

But they have nada for AoE and will have less hit points to boot. So even if you call their utility a wash the rogue would still be too high a benchmark for single target.

rogue already has plenty of utility, they have 10 skill up's and 10 skill feats worth of utility power budget we have to work with, as for aoe, as ive previously stated i think its nice, but i dont think its especially valuable, and certanly should not be a classes focal point
It is still going eat into your class budget though, regardless of whether it is the focal point. Having the tool is a significant advantage that straight up martials largely don't have. So your single target damage will inevitably suffer for it.

barbarians can aoe https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=148 so can fighter and ranger https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=426 inventors have explosion built in, magus has access to all kinds of aoe with or without spellstrike, eldritch trickster just has spells and thaumaturge can throw around scrolls.

now these are all admitidly much slimmer pickings than the kineticist, but they also do more damage for less actions at aproximatly the same dc (class dc growth is wobbly) now im not saying that for instance dragon barbarian is better at aoe than a kineticist, but i am

...

At this point I've seen almost nobody say their damage isn't low.

We just disagree on where they should fall.

Personally I think their damage should be around thaumaturge/inventor. Wich would still constitute buffs to their damage in some way.


Ryuujin-sama wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

Universalist definitely needs a nerf of some kind. Or the whole being immune thing needs rethinking. That class feature alone is enough to make it near folly to play anything else.

What exactly do you think they become immune to? They are only immune to the damage of things with the trait of their Element. Which is fine for Fire, lots of things have the Fire trait.

Water has Flowing Wave strikes, Pulverizing Cascade focus spell, Tempest Touch focus spell, maybe Unbreaking Wave Advance focus spell though the damage is more for if you knock something into a wall so maybe not?

The creatures with the Water trait are Brine Dragon, Bronze Dragon, Sea Dragon, Blizzardborn, Brine Shark, Danava Titan, Draugr, Drenchdead, Elemental Tsunami, Elemental Vessel, Water, Grodair, Ice Mephit, Icewyrm, Icicle Snake, Ledalusca, Living Waterfall, Marid, Minchgorm, Mist Stalker, Mudwretch, Naiad, Naiad Queen, Nereid, Ooze Mephit, Quatoid, Riekanoy, River Drake, Rusalka, Sea Drake, Steam Mephit, Tidal Master, Tidehawk, Water Mephit, Water Orm, Water Wisp, Water Yai.

As for spells with the Water Trait there are Aqueous Orb, Cataclysm, Control Water, Crashing Wave, Create Water, Deluge, Elemental Annihilation Wave, Elemental Confluence, Flowing Strike, Frigid Flurry, Geyser, Holy Cascade, Hydraulic Push, Hydraulic Torrent, Mud Pit, Obscuring Mist, Personal Rain Cloud, Pillar of Water, Quench, Sea Surge, Snowball, Solid Fog, Soothing Spring, Spout, Wall of Ice, Wall of Water.

Not all of which deal damage. Of course there are Water Impulses now. Still that is a small fraction of the things someone is going to face. It is better obviously if you have multiple elements gathered, but still most of the things you will face do not have the Air, Earth, Fire or Water trait.

Water, fire, earth, air

And somehow metal/wood. Though I don't know how they are going to factor those.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Kylian Winters wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
I've been comparing to a rogue with a shorbow, my damage MVP in the AP I've been running.

My shortbow Investigator has similarly felt insane. Stealth to initiative is so so good on archers.

But you're proving my point. If the rogue deals consistent sneak attack damage they get full martial single target damage. The kineticist will have to deal less than that for single target if they also want AoE and utility.

Rogues certainly do have utility, though I think it is hard to compare extra skills and skill feats to things like flight and invisibility. You're solving different problems there.

But they have nada for AoE and will have less hit points to boot. So even if you call their utility a wash the rogue would still be too high a benchmark for single target.

rogue already has plenty of utility, they have 10 skill up's and 10 skill feats worth of utility power budget we have to work with, as for aoe, as ive previously stated i think its nice, but i dont think its especially valuable, and certanly should not be a classes focal point
It is still going eat into your class budget though, regardless of whether it is the focal point. Having the tool is a significant advantage that straight up martials largely don't have. So your single target damage will inevitably suffer for it.

barbarians can aoe https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=148 so can fighter and ranger https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=426 inventors have explosion built in, magus has access to all kinds of aoe with or without spellstrike, eldritch trickster just has spells and thaumaturge can throw around scrolls.

now these are all admitidly much slimmer pickings than the kineticist, but they also do more damage for less actions at aproximatly the same dc (class dc growth is wobbly) now im not saying that for instance dragon barbarian is better at

...

I... havent done the mathmatic comparasons, but isnt thaum a better single target damage dealer than rogue, who you said was too high?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I don't really understand how the resistance/immunity thing is going to work in the final class, and think there will be major changes there. Being "immune" to air, earth or water is weird enough. Being immune to wood and metal just sounds ridiculous.


Kekkres wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Kylian Winters wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
I've been comparing to a rogue with a shorbow, my damage MVP in the AP I've been running.

My shortbow Investigator has similarly felt insane. Stealth to initiative is so so good on archers.

But you're proving my point. If the rogue deals consistent sneak attack damage they get full martial single target damage. The kineticist will have to deal less than that for single target if they also want AoE and utility.

Rogues certainly do have utility, though I think it is hard to compare extra skills and skill feats to things like flight and invisibility. You're solving different problems there.

But they have nada for AoE and will have less hit points to boot. So even if you call their utility a wash the rogue would still be too high a benchmark for single target.

rogue already has plenty of utility, they have 10 skill up's and 10 skill feats worth of utility power budget we have to work with, as for aoe, as ive previously stated i think its nice, but i dont think its especially valuable, and certanly should not be a classes focal point
It is still going eat into your class budget though, regardless of whether it is the focal point. Having the tool is a significant advantage that straight up martials largely don't have. So your single target damage will inevitably suffer for it.

barbarians can aoe https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=148 so can fighter and ranger https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=426 inventors have explosion built in, magus has access to all kinds of aoe with or without spellstrike, eldritch trickster just has spells and thaumaturge can throw around scrolls.

now these are all admitidly much slimmer pickings than the kineticist, but they also do more damage for less actions at aproximatly the same dc (class dc growth is wobbly) now im not saying that for

...

I have a hard time seeing how.

It is not hard for rogue's to get their sneak attack damage at all.

And it only gets easier over time.

Not to mention how good opportune back stab is if you had a rogue gunning for damage.


Immunity is to effects (spells and monster abilities) but you also get resistance to normal strikes by monsters with the trait.

Universal gate who gathered all four elements via amalgam is resistant or immune to a lot of things until he uses an impulse

Extract element both debuffs and gives you your resistance against something with the trait.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Unicore wrote:
I don't really understand how the resistance/immunity thing is going to work in the final class, and think there will be major changes there. Being "immune" to air, earth or water is weird enough. Being immune to wood and metal just sounds ridiculous.

If you're immune to metal, does that mean I can not be hurt by anyone wielding a metal weapon? lol


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
...

did maths

level one
rogue bonus 1d6 (3.5)
thaum bonus +5

level 5
rogue bonus 2d6 (7)
thaum bonus +7

Level 11
Rogue bonus 3d6 (10.5)
thaum bonus +9 (catches up at level 14)

level 17
rogue bonus 4d6 (14)
thaum bonus +12 (catches up at 20)

theif and ruffian rogue can get a +1 damage advantage due to key stat, other rogues unlikely to have maxed str so probobly fall behind

so thaum is ahead or even untill 11 after which thaum and rogue jockey for the lead. outside of levels 1-4 where thaum has a clear lead, its pretty close throughout


So level 17 might make you immune to those spells even if they don't deal damage.

That said metal weapons don't have the Metal trait so no it won't work on them.

And Extract Elements is again most useful to fire, though some things attacking with fire it won't work on. If you have water it will only work on those creatures I listed, as they are the only creatures that have the Water trait. Unless there is something that wasn't coded right in AoN.


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Kekkres wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
...

did maths

level one
rogue bonus 1d6 (3.5)
thaum bonus +5

level 5
rogue bonus 2d6 (7)
thaum bonus +7

Level 11
Rogue bonus 3d6 (10.5)
thaum bonus +9 (catches up at level 14)

level 17
rogue bonus 4d6 (14)
thaum bonus +12 (catches up at 20)

theif and ruffian rogue can get a +1 damage advantage due to key stat, other rogues unlikely to have maxed str so probobly fall behind

so thaum is ahead or even untill 11 after which thaum and rogue jockey for the lead. outside of levels 1-4 where thaum has a clear lead, its pretty close throughout

Did you take into account

Rogue having higher to hit chances

Rogue opportune back stab

But I agree they are closer than I expected.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
...

did maths

level one
rogue bonus 1d6 (3.5)
thaum bonus +5

level 5
rogue bonus 2d6 (7)
thaum bonus +7

Level 11
Rogue bonus 3d6 (10.5)
thaum bonus +9 (catches up at level 14)

level 17
rogue bonus 4d6 (14)
thaum bonus +12 (catches up at 20)

theif and ruffian rogue can get a +1 damage advantage due to key stat, other rogues unlikely to have maxed str so probobly fall behind

so thaum is ahead or even untill 11 after which thaum and rogue jockey for the lead. outside of levels 1-4 where thaum has a clear lead, its pretty close throughout

Did you take into account

Rogue having higher to hit chances

Rogue opportune back stab

But I agree they are closer than I expected.

thief and ruffian are more accurate, scoundral, mastermind and trickster are less so i considered it a wash on the whole. I did not consider opertunistic backstab because it would need to be compared with implements interuption which only some thaums ever have access to and it makes the math WAY muddier


Kekkres wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
...

did maths

level one
rogue bonus 1d6 (3.5)
thaum bonus +5

level 5
rogue bonus 2d6 (7)
thaum bonus +7

Level 11
Rogue bonus 3d6 (10.5)
thaum bonus +9 (catches up at level 14)

level 17
rogue bonus 4d6 (14)
thaum bonus +12 (catches up at 20)

theif and ruffian rogue can get a +1 damage advantage due to key stat, other rogues unlikely to have maxed str so probobly fall behind

so thaum is ahead or even untill 11 after which thaum and rogue jockey for the lead. outside of levels 1-4 where thaum has a clear lead, its pretty close throughout

Did you take into account

Rogue having higher to hit chances

Rogue opportune back stab

But I agree they are closer than I expected.

thief and ruffian are more accurate, scoundral, mastermind and trickster are less so i considered it a wash on the whole. I did not consider opertunistic backstab because it would need to be compared with implements interuption which only some thaums ever have access to and it makes the math WAY muddier

Sorry, I guess when I imagine damage comparison I go with the best damage the class can pull. Instead of an average.


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Ryuujin-sama wrote:

So level 17 might make you immune to those spells even if they don't deal damage.

That said metal weapons don't have the Metal trait so no it won't work on them.

And Extract Elements is again most useful to fire, though some things attacking with fire it won't work on. If you have water it will only work on those creatures I listed, as they are the only creatures that have the Water trait. Unless there is something that wasn't coded right in AoN.

There’s a sidebar that the GM can add creatures without the trait he judges are mostly made of the element.

Guess what? I’m 70% water. Checkmate, GM.


The whole immunity thing just seems weird. Also not relevant to Kineticist not dealing enough damage.


The total class power budget is relevant to how much can be allocated to damage.


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Xenocrat wrote:
The total class power budget is relevant to how much can be allocated to damage.

If that is why Kineticist deal less damage then just remove the immunity.


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No, make it immune to more and lower the damage.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I'm trying to imagine the members of Seal Team Six sitting around having this kind of discussion with respect to an upcoming mission. Does not compute. :-)


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Temperans wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
The total class power budget is relevant to how much can be allocated to damage.
If that is why Kineticist deal less damage then just remove the immunity.

Especially if Universal being immune to 4+ things at a time is limiting things for the others.


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I feel part of the problem is that the resistance/immunity is dependent on a trait and not on a damage type. But other than Fire the rest all do physical damage, you don't have Cold for Water and Electricity for Air which would be reasonable immunities.

Though again either way Universalists kind of throw everything out of whack in general, especially when they can gather all elements at once.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
I've been comparing to a rogue with a shorbow, my damage MVP in the AP I've been running.

My shortbow Investigator has similarly felt insane. Stealth to initiative is so so good on archers.

But you're proving my point. If the rogue deals consistent sneak attack damage they get full martial single target damage. The kineticist will have to deal less than that for single target if they also want AoE and utility.

Rogues certainly do have utility, though I think it is hard to compare extra skills and skill feats to things like flight and invisibility. You're solving different problems there.

But they have nada for AoE and will have less hit points to boot. So even if you call their utility a wash the rogue would still be too high a benchmark for single target.

rogue already has plenty of utility, they have 10 skill up's and 10 skill feats worth of utility power budget we have to work with, as for aoe, as ive previously stated i think its nice, but i dont think its especially valuable, and certanly should not be a classes focal point
It is still going eat into your class budget though, regardless of whether it is the focal point. Having the tool is a significant advantage that straight up martials largely don't have. So your single target damage will inevitably suffer for it.

barbarians can aoe https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=148 so can fighter and ranger https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=426 inventors have explosion built in, magus has access to all kinds of aoe with or without spellstrike, eldritch trickster just has spells and thaumaturge can throw around scrolls.

now these are all admitidly much slimmer pickings than the kineticist, but they also do more damage for less actions at aproximatly the same dc (class dc growth is wobbly) now im not saying that for instance dragon barbarian is better at aoe than a kineticist, but i am saying that treating it as...

Kineticist can also use scrolls, the magus is only halfway a martial, Whirlwind Attack/Impossible Volley are super high level. The only martials with decent AoE are Inventors and Dragon Barbarians, and I guess monks. And all of their options have worse targeting than many of the overflow options.

Scarab Sages

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I think maybe we should stop trying to figure out the class budget for stuff, we don't have that info and since we don't Paizo can be flexible with it to make the class fun. If the sweet spot is slightly over budget but fun, I don't really see that as a problem. We're still going to see other classes get played all the time even if kineticist is an 11/10 because it doesn't fulfill every character fantasy.


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I'm aware I'm responding to an older topic in the thread, but am I understanding that the main argument in favor of Aerial Boomerang's control potential is that you need 3 actions' worth of setup (2 actions for Fair Winds, another to re-Gather Element) for it first? That you spend one of the early rounds of combat (which are more important) doing nothing, not even moving? I suppose you could move and then use Fair Winds, and offload Gather onto your next round, but then you'll likely have more trouble with positioning.


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Ryuujin-sama wrote:
Not all of which deal damage. Of course there are Water Impulses now. Still that is a small fraction of the things someone is going to face. It is better obviously if you have multiple elements gathered, but still most of the things you will face do not have the Air, Earth, Fire or Water trait.

You don't need to have an element trait as a creature to use some effect with an element trait. Though it's probably rarer.

Ryuujin-sama wrote:
Though again either way Universalists kind of throw everything out of whack in general, especially when they can gather all elements at once.

They also lose the elements the moment they use them.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
egindar wrote:
I'm aware I'm responding to an older topic in the thread, but am I understanding that the main argument in favor of Aerial Boomerang's control potential is that you need 3 actions' worth of setup (2 actions for Fair Winds, another to re-Gather Element) for it first? That you spend one of the early rounds of combat (which are more important) doing nothing, not even moving? I suppose you could move and then use Fair Winds, and offload Gather onto your next round, but then you'll likely have more trouble with positioning.

I think many of us assume that a kineticist will be walking into dangerous situations with an element gathered. If so, first round might be aura and move into cover, or aura and fire a long range blast if you are already in a good position from which you will want to fire boomerang from. Next round, if the conditions are right, you blast, the fire off boomerang. Again, maybe you have to move before blasting to set it up better, and you don’t blast. The filling round you gather and with blast 2x, or you blast three times if you’ve got blast barrage.

Those are decent set of first three turns for a dedicate air elementalist. At 6th level, you very well may hold blasting on round one to stone element so that your boomerang does an extra 4 points of damage on every enemy it hits, for both rounds.

Edit: The wording of stoke element is a little nebulous to me. I could see some GMs only applying it to the very first target of the impulse, I could some ruling that it targets everything hit that the first damage roll would apply to. Arial boomerang says "at the start of your next turn, the boomerang returns in a line from its square to your current location, with the same effect. as the initial line." Is that an ongoing effect? Is anything that is the same effect the next round an ongoing effect? I think the language could be cleaned to make the intentions a little clearer in the final draft of the class for either stoke element or for the impulses, as far as what constitutes the initial effect and what is an ongoing effect.


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egindar wrote:
I'm aware I'm responding to an older topic in the thread, but am I understanding that the main argument in favor of Aerial Boomerang's control potential is that you need 3 actions' worth of setup (2 actions for Fair Winds, another to re-Gather Element) for it first? That you spend one of the early rounds of combat (which are more important) doing nothing, not even moving?

Are you under the impression that using Fair Winds expends your element? None of the auras have the overflow trait. Round 1 is activate aura and Blast or move into position or Stoke. No need to Gather until you use Boomerang.


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RexAliquid wrote:
None of the auras have the overflow trait. Round 1 is activate aura and Blast or move into position or Stoke. No need to Gather until you use Boomerang.

Well 1 does, but it's a capstone Aura that's almost as much Battle Form as Aura.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I've seen a couple of people here say something to the effect that a Universalist "can Gather all four elements at once". Yet the description of "Gather Element" says specifically "You can have only one element gathered at a time" (Playtest document, page 5). Am I missing something?

Edit: I see there's a 10th level feat, "Gather Amalgamation" allowing you to gather a small amount of each element, but it's more limited than "Gather Element".


Gather Amalgamation is the thing they're referring to, yeah. True, something like Blasting or popping a utility Impulse will get rid of it, but until then, you still have all 4 elements Gathered, and all the benefits there-in, and if you're going to use the elements for Overflow Impulses anyways it's functionally identical to just having Gathered but for all four elements at once.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Still, not happening until level 10.


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Shinigami02 wrote:
Gather Amalgamation is the thing they're referring to, yeah. True, something like Blasting or popping a utility Impulse will get rid of it, but until then, you still have all 4 elements Gathered, and all the benefits there-in, and if you're going to use the elements for Overflow Impulses anyways it's functionally identical to just having Gathered but for all four elements at once.

The real value in gather amalgamation is the action economy you save by not needing to reload after each overflow. At 12 you have a nice clean rotation of wall of stone + ranged strike, sustain+overflow or 3 action overflow, repeat, repeat. Niche damage resistance and level 17 immunity is nice but not as nice as smooth gameplay.


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Many people are arguing that it would be unbalanced for the kineticist to retain it's current AoE damage and have higher single target damage. I fundamentally disagree with the premise that AoE damage has much value.

1) I have never seen a fight with lots of low level monsters ever kill a party member even after two full AP campaigns composed of mostly martials.

2) Splitting damage is inherently less valuable than focusing and removing targets from the board as fast as possible.

I won't deny that fireball, at 2d6 per spell level, is a very effective spell with even a handful of targets. That's a decently impressive amount of damage even on a single target though. Once you start dialing that back to the average power of kineticist impulses, at around 1d6 per spell level, I think its value is much lower than just the proportional loss in damage.

Though personally I don't think that just adding more flat damage would be the right way to address this. I think it would be more interesting if the kineticist could weave together elemental blasts and impulses on the same turn. I imagine the ability to choose between two elemental blasts and a single target impulse or an AoE impulse and a single elemental blast would be a really engaging gameplay loop.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
CrypticSplicer wrote:

Many people are arguing that it would be unbalanced for the kineticist to retain it's current AoE damage and have higher single target damage. I fundamentally disagree with the premise that AoE damage has much value.

1) I have never seen a fight with lots of low level monsters ever kill a party member even after two full AP campaigns composed of mostly martials.

2) Splitting damage is inherently less valuable than focusing and removing targets from the board as fast as possible.

I won't deny that fireball, at 2d6 per spell level, is a very effective spell with even a handful of targets. That's a decently impressive amount of damage even on a single target though. Once you start dialing that back to the average power of kineticist impulses, at around 1d6 per spell level, I think its value is much lower than just the proportional loss in damage.

Though personally I don't think that just adding more flat damage would be the right way to address this. I think it would be more interesting if the kineticist could weave together elemental blasts and impulses on the same turn. I imagine the ability to choose between two elemental blasts and a single target impulse or an AoE impulse and a single elemental blast would be a really engaging gameplay loop.

A lightning bolt outdamages a giant barbarian's opening round (where they need to rage and close) to even a single target. You're making a fine contribution to the focus fire effort, while also setting up the next for to be focused on as well.

It is possible that you could remove one piece from the board quicker with a single target damage effect, but that's a matter of luck (dealong 30% more damage only matters if that pushes someone over the edge) and by damaging two enemies you're increasing the odds of dropping early across two pieces.

Also, multiple enemy encounters aren't limited to low level creatures. Some of the deadliest AP encounters are two APL+1 foes or a higher level for plus minions. Those minions can keep you from teaching the spell slinging boss by clogging up charge lanes, or provide the boss flanking if you do close.

Multi-target damage on casters is fine. The kineticist damage may still need a buff, but people focus too much on focus fire.


gesalt wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
Gather Amalgamation is the thing they're referring to, yeah. True, something like Blasting or popping a utility Impulse will get rid of it, but until then, you still have all 4 elements Gathered, and all the benefits there-in, and if you're going to use the elements for Overflow Impulses anyways it's functionally identical to just having Gathered but for all four elements at once.
The real value in gather amalgamation is the action economy you save by not needing to reload after each overflow. At 12 you have a nice clean rotation of wall of stone + ranged strike, sustain+overflow or 3 action overflow, repeat, repeat. Niche damage resistance and level 17 immunity is nice but not as nice as smooth gameplay.

The Kineticist can even cast 4 3-actions Overflow Impulses in line for example:

Turn 1: Elemental Blast, Gather Amalgamation
Turn 2: The Shattered Mountain Weeps - Earth
Turn 3: Drowning Sphere - Water
Turn 4: Solar Detonation - Fire
Turn 5: Storm Spiral - Air

Gather Amalgamation it's a fun and useful use of Universalist but IMO the real benefit is being able to switch the elements to use the best Elemental Resistance, Extract Element, Critical Element, Elemental Flexibility, Improved Elemental Flexibility and Elemental Immunity at will. It's also make the feats Rapid Reattunement and Omnikinesis super flexible.

Probably during playtest I adventures from lvl 1-8 I will use a Dedicated Gate but after it I retrain to Universalist.


Captain Morgan wrote:

Also, multiple enemy encounters aren't limited to low level creatures. Some of the deadliest AP encounters are two APL+1 foes or a higher level for plus minions. Those minions can keep you from teaching the spell slinging boss by clogging up charge lanes, or provide the boss flanking if you do close.

Multi-target damage on casters is fine. The kineticist damage may still need a buff, but people focus too much on focus fire.

Yet the general felling is that AoE isn't necessary.

My currently AoA party started with half-casters/half-martials. But the party blasters casters switch to martials due the felling of low damage of AoE a limited number of spellslots. Against strong opponents even with minions they now prefer the concentrated and constant damage of the martials, they usually kills all minions in 1-2 rounds then focus to boss. Including one of these players is fan of blasters (I will call him to test the Kineticist) but he give up saying that PF2 is a game for martials and switch from druid to swashbuckler! (yes I don't understand until now but he said that at last he likes the swashbuckler ah-ha! style! kkk)
The only caster that's still "surviving" in this party is the Bard because he likes to support (its a Bard with Marshal archetype).


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
YuriP wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Also, multiple enemy encounters aren't limited to low level creatures. Some of the deadliest AP encounters are two APL+1 foes or a higher level for plus minions. Those minions can keep you from teaching the spell slinging boss by clogging up charge lanes, or provide the boss flanking if you do close.

Multi-target damage on casters is fine. The kineticist damage may still need a buff, but people focus too much on focus fire.

Yet the general felling is that AoE isn't necessary.

My currently AoA party started with half-casters/half-martials. But the party blasters casters switch to martials due the felling of low damage of AoE a limited number of spellslots. Against strong opponents even with minions they now prefer the concentrated and constant damage of the martials, they usually kills all minions in 1-2 rounds then focus to boss. Including one of these players is fan of blasters (I will call him to test the Kineticist) but he give up saying that PF2 is a game for martials and switch from druid to swashbuckler! (yes I don't understand until now but he said that at last he likes the swashbuckler ah-ha! style! kkk)
The only caster that's still "surviving" in this party is the Bard because he likes to support (its a Bard with Marshal archetype).

I don't know what to tell you then. Once lightning bolt comes into player caster damage really skyrockets. If they played past that point and still felt like they weren't contributing, then they must have had some really really bad luck. AoE stuff against multiple enemies increases the odds someone will crit fail and then your damage becomes disgusting.

Now that's assuming you're using top level spell slots or a damaging focus spell, so resource sustainability is definitely an issue for certain encounter cadences. And I guess that's what the at will abilities here are trying to make up for. I think the kineticist probably lost too much damage in the trade to be appealing. But I don't think they are ever going to exceed top slot caster AoE damage because that's already good.

Edit: I do think EQUALING top slot caster damage might be ok because casters get more versatility. (This is better than single target damage because that is basically it for martials.) But you then need to limit versatility. Currently, your choice of feats impacts whether you have a bunch of AoE blasts or utility tricks... But all you really need is one good overflow to fall back on, and then you can use the rest of your feats on that utility.


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Lot of people haven't played into those levels with casters. They give up beforehand.

Even though at those levels casters are king's. Just no longer gods.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Also, multiple enemy encounters aren't limited to low level creatures. Some of the deadliest AP encounters are two APL+1 foes or a higher level for plus minions. Those minions can keep you from teaching the spell slinging boss by clogging up charge lanes, or provide the boss flanking if you do close.

Multi-target damage on casters is fine. The kineticist damage may still need a buff, but people focus too much on focus fire.

Yet the general felling is that AoE isn't necessary.

My currently AoA party started with half-casters/half-martials. But the party blasters casters switch to martials due the felling of low damage of AoE a limited number of spellslots. Against strong opponents even with minions they now prefer the concentrated and constant damage of the martials, they usually kills all minions in 1-2 rounds then focus to boss. Including one of these players is fan of blasters (I will call him to test the Kineticist) but he give up saying that PF2 is a game for martials and switch from druid to swashbuckler! (yes I don't understand until now but he said that at last he likes the swashbuckler ah-ha! style! kkk)
The only caster that's still "surviving" in this party is the Bard because he likes to support (its a Bard with Marshal archetype).

I don't know what to tell you then. Once lightning bolt comes into player caster damage really skyrockets. If they played past that point and still felt like they weren't contributing, then they must have had some really really bad luck. AoE stuff against multiple enemies increases the odds someone will crit fail and then your damage becomes disgusting.

Now that's assuming you're using top level spell slots or a damaging focus spell, so resource sustainability is definitely an issue for certain encounter cadences. And I guess that's what the at will abilities here are trying to make up for. I think the kineticist probably lost too much damage in the trade to be appealing. But I don't think they are ever...

Even if we get SOME utility, we will never equal the versatility of a wizard. He just needs it in his spellbook and then can learn it in the morning if he needs it.

We will be stuck with that same utility whether we want it or not.


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I did some math and it is clear that in single target scenarios the earth blast is better than a cantrip anytime both spend 2 actions on the attack. A caster spending a feat to get bow access does sneak ahead spending 3 actions attacking...but is really cheating this example and mostly just taking advantage of the fact that short bows are too good of weapons. The deadly die twists all dpr calculations way off. If the caster was stuck with any simple ranged weapon, then the Kineticist would take the lead as the wizard would not be able to make a weapon attack with every 3rd action.

Interestingly, Forceful really boosts the damage that Earth does ahead of cantrip and a bow, but it doesn't factor into a purely ranged comparisons.
This means even just a flat +1 damage to blasts would catapult the Earth Kineticist ahead of the caster on single target damage, even in the caster's best case scenario which essentially requires a feat cheat to accomplish.

Air also does comparably very well when used as strength based reach melee weapon because of the bonuses to extra attacks from agile. Fire on ranged also very nearly catches up at range with agile and has as much range as the longest range cantrips.

Stoke Element does very little in these comparisons because it only applies to the first blast attack.

So in retrospect, the kineticist is better than a caster with cantrips for single target ranged damage, but not better than a caster with a cantrip and a short bow.

The generally perceived "anemia" of Kinteticist damage is being problematized by the overtuned state of the short bow as a martial weapon, a weapon that is known to factor outside of the math numbers used in the development of other weapons and classes.

It is also not as drastic as it is being made out when people are trying to compare air blasts to rangers.

I predict that the final class will have some feature that will average out to be about a +1 to damage per attack, probably in the form of a situational bonus that feels more significant than a flat +1 but isn't.

Sczarni

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Unicore wrote:

I did some math and it is clear that in single target scenarios the earth blast is better than a cantrip anytime both spend 2 actions on the attack. A caster spending a feat to get bow access does sneak ahead spending 3 actions attacking...but is really cheating this example and mostly just taking advantage of the fact that short bows are too good of weapons. The deadly die twists all dpr calculations way off. If the caster was stuck with any simple ranged weapon, then the Kineticist would take the lead as the wizard would not be able to make a weapon attack with every 3rd action.

Interestingly, Forceful really boosts the damage that Earth does ahead of cantrip and a bow, but it doesn't factor into a purely ranged comparisons.
This means even just a flat +1 damage to blasts would catapult the Earth Kineticist ahead of the caster on single target damage, even in the caster's best case scenario which essentially requires a feat cheat to accomplish.

Air also does comparably very well when used as strength based reach melee weapon because of the bonuses to extra attacks from agile. Fire on ranged also very nearly catches up at range with agile and has as much range as the longest range cantrips.

Stoke Element does very little in these comparisons because it only applies to the first blast attack.

So in retrospect, the kineticist is better than a caster with cantrips for single target ranged damage, but not better than a caster with a cantrip and a short bow.

The generally perceived "anemia" of Kinteticist damage is being problematized by the overtuned state of the short bow as a martial weapon, a weapon that is known to factor outside of the math numbers used in the development of other weapons and classes.

It is also not as drastic as it is being made out when people are trying to compare air blasts to rangers.

I predict that the final class will have some feature that will average out to be about a +1 to damage per attack, probably in the form of a situational bonus that feels more...

FYI we need to spend 3 actions per overflow


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Verzen wrote:

Even if we get SOME utility, we will never equal the versatility of a wizard. He just needs it in his spellbook and then can learn it in the morning if he needs it.

We will be stuck with that same utility whether we want it or not.

By level 9 the kineticist has a free feat that they can switch up daily (an ability that gets better at higher levels). Before level 8 there really is not enough extra utility feats for it to matter. The Kineticist is very versatile with their ability to have the right utility feat when needed.


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Verzen wrote:
Unicore wrote:

I did some math and it is clear that in single target scenarios the earth blast is better than a cantrip anytime both spend 2 actions on the attack. A caster spending a feat to get bow access does sneak ahead spending 3 actions attacking...but is really cheating this example and mostly just taking advantage of the fact that short bows are too good of weapons. The deadly die twists all dpr calculations way off. If the caster was stuck with any simple ranged weapon, then the Kineticist would take the lead as the wizard would not be able to make a weapon attack with every 3rd action.

Interestingly, Forceful really boosts the damage that Earth does ahead of cantrip and a bow, but it doesn't factor into a purely ranged comparisons.
This means even just a flat +1 damage to blasts would catapult the Earth Kineticist ahead of the caster on single target damage, even in the caster's best case scenario which essentially requires a feat cheat to accomplish.

Air also does comparably very well when used as strength based reach melee weapon because of the bonuses to extra attacks from agile. Fire on ranged also very nearly catches up at range with agile and has as much range as the longest range cantrips.

Stoke Element does very little in these comparisons because it only applies to the first blast attack.

So in retrospect, the kineticist is better than a caster with cantrips for single target ranged damage, but not better than a caster with a cantrip and a short bow.

The generally perceived "anemia" of Kinteticist damage is being problematized by the overtuned state of the short bow as a martial weapon, a weapon that is known to factor outside of the math numbers used in the development of other weapons and classes.

It is also not as drastic as it is being made out when people are trying to compare air blasts to rangers.

I predict that the final class will have some feature that will average out to be about a +1 to damage per attack, probably in the form of a situational

...

My calculations were all blasts. There is no overflow involved.

Scarab Sages

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YuriP wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Also, multiple enemy encounters aren't limited to low level creatures. Some of the deadliest AP encounters are two APL+1 foes or a higher level for plus minions. Those minions can keep you from teaching the spell slinging boss by clogging up charge lanes, or provide the boss flanking if you do close.

Multi-target damage on casters is fine. The kineticist damage may still need a buff, but people focus too much on focus fire.

Yet the general felling is that AoE isn't necessary.

My currently AoA party started with half-casters/half-martials. But the party blasters casters switch to martials due the felling of low damage of AoE a limited number of spellslots. Against strong opponents even with minions they now prefer the concentrated and constant damage of the martials, they usually kills all minions in 1-2 rounds then focus to boss. Including one of these players is fan of blasters (I will call him to test the Kineticist) but he give up saying that PF2 is a game for martials and switch from druid to swashbuckler! (yes I don't understand until now but he said that at last he likes the swashbuckler ah-ha! style! kkk)
The only caster that's still "surviving" in this party is the Bard because he likes to support (its a Bard with Marshal archetype).

I've had very similar results with my party. My bard even got some wands so he has some AoE spells...but he'd rather Inspire and cast Haste because his smoldering fireball hurts several enemies but the Fighter can more often than not actually kill something - and dead enemies don't hit back. An enemy with 1 HP hits just as hard as one with 100.

I think it might just be a consequence of the system, even the fighter in fullplate with a shield gets hit fairly often, so the best way to mitigate damage is to remove an entire enemy. And if that's not actually the best strategy it's the one that's served them best.

So, I'm thinking this is not a unique experience and is probably why so few people really seem to care about AoE damage. It's just not that valuable to a player who can't see the HP bar.


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Why would you compare a cantrip to elemental blasts? This seems like an obvious mismatch.

I think the people trying to argue about 'class budgets' miss that the action opportunity cost means flexibility doesn't matter anymore once you lag too far behind. Being 75% of a martial and 75% of a spellcaster is kinda worthless- you're just always kind of a burden then. I don't think the kineticist should be equally good as classes that specialize in those tasks, but the right balance is much closer to 90%/90%. I think the design of the Magus and Summoner demonstrate that the designers understand this.

I'm fully expecting a buff, my party and I are just having a hard time motivating ourselves to playtest this class as is right now.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Angel Hunter D wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Also, multiple enemy encounters aren't limited to low level creatures. Some of the deadliest AP encounters are two APL+1 foes or a higher level for plus minions. Those minions can keep you from teaching the spell slinging boss by clogging up charge lanes, or provide the boss flanking if you do close.

Multi-target damage on casters is fine. The kineticist damage may still need a buff, but people focus too much on focus fire.

Yet the general felling is that AoE isn't necessary.

My currently AoA party started with half-casters/half-martials. But the party blasters casters switch to martials due the felling of low damage of AoE a limited number of spellslots. Against strong opponents even with minions they now prefer the concentrated and constant damage of the martials, they usually kills all minions in 1-2 rounds then focus to boss. Including one of these players is fan of blasters (I will call him to test the Kineticist) but he give up saying that PF2 is a game for martials and switch from druid to swashbuckler! (yes I don't understand until now but he said that at last he likes the swashbuckler ah-ha! style! kkk)
The only caster that's still "surviving" in this party is the Bard because he likes to support (its a Bard with Marshal archetype).

I've had very similar results with my party. My bard even got some wands so he has some AoE spells...but he'd rather Inspire and cast Haste because his smoldering fireball hurts several enemies but the Fighter can more often than not actually kill something - and dead enemies don't hit back. An enemy with 1 HP hits just as hard as one with 100.

I think it might just be a consequence of the system, even the fighter in fullplate with a shield gets hit fairly often, so the best way to mitigate damage is to remove an entire enemy. And if that's not actually the best strategy it's the one that's served them best.

So, I'm thinking this is not a unique experience and is probably why so few people really...

Maybe that explains some of why I've seen players rely on them so much-- I play with HP bars on Foundry. (I really think the game works better that way, and your character should visually be able to tell if someone's on their last legs.) I still saw plenty of blasts in person though...

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
CrypticSplicer wrote:

Why would you compare a cantrip to elemental blasts? This seems like an obvious mismatch.

I think the people trying to argue about 'class budgets' miss that the action opportunity cost means flexibility doesn't matter anymore once you lag too far behind. Being 75% of a martial and 75% of a spellcaster is kinda worthless- you're just always kind of a burden then. I don't think the kineticist should be equally good as classes that specialize in those tasks, but the right balance is much closer to 90%/90%. I think the design of the Magus and Summoner demonstrate that the designers understand this.

I'm fully expecting a buff, my party and I are just having a hard time motivating ourselves to playtest this class as is right now.

We compare a cantrip to blasts and impulses to show how useless the damage is. Might as well just take electric arc


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Martialmasters wrote:

Lot of people haven't played into those levels with casters. They give up beforehand.

Even though at those levels casters are king's. Just no longer gods.

That's what's unfortunately usually happens (same problem from PF1/3.5) but I fell that Kineticist will be different. Specially if the Paizo power up the Overflow Impulses.

Unicore wrote:
Verzen wrote:

Even if we get SOME utility, we will never equal the versatility of a wizard. He just needs it in his spellbook and then can learn it in the morning if he needs it.

We will be stuck with that same utility whether we want it or not.

By level 9 the kineticist has a free feat that they can switch up daily (an ability that gets better at higher levels). Before level 8 there really is not enough extra utility feats for it to matter. The Kineticist is very versatile with their ability to have the right utility feat when needed.

I said in another topic. In the last levels the Universalist Kineticist is even more versatile than spontaneous spellcasters.

Angel Hunter D wrote:

I've had very similar results with my party. My bard even got some wands so he has some AoE spells...but he'd rather Inspire and cast Haste because his smoldering fireball hurts several enemies but the Fighter can more often than not actually kill something - and dead enemies don't hit back. An enemy with 1 HP hits just as hard as one with 100.

I think it might just be a consequence of the system, even the fighter in fullplate with a shield gets hit fairly often, so the best way to mitigate damage is to remove an entire enemy. And if that's not actually the best strategy it's the one that's served them best.

In our group, as we have a paladin, the fighter goes reckless Power Attacking using it's bastard sword with 2-hands and, oh god, it's a machine of destruction! He's crits are astounding if I put many too weak minions (-4,-3 lvls) it's kills it like a god no crits needed, if I put less minions but stronger it's crits still do the job.

Lighting is a very good spell but when everyone see a fighter doing the lightning damage with a 2-handed weapon power attack, crit often and haven't difficult to hit the second Strike. They see a monster! It's Epic!
The casters are no more gods neither kings the new kings is now the fighters!

Angel Hunter D wrote:
So, I'm thinking this is not a unique experience and is probably why so few people really seem to care about AoE damage. It's just not that valuable to a player who can't see the HP bar.

They simply treat the game like an action RPG like Diablo. In the end the sorcerers is good, their spells kills all minions but in the what's really matter is to kill the Diablo, the rest will be killed during the process. That's a common perception from many players. And at a certain point they have some reason.

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